EPTThere's one incident of Envy getting angry that people aren't working properly in a team which everyone since has said had a huge amount of internal issues. That's really not something to draw much from, especially given that Bone7 chose to speak out in support of Envy of his own choice, and Misery chose to team with Envy again which is the biggest endorsement you can get. This does not support the "Envy is cancerous" narrative at all: if that were the case, why has Envy been kicked only once in his entire career (when he was playing terribly, for the record), and why have literally no players ever chosen to leave his team?
Team Secret Discussion - Page 130
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
There's one incident of Envy getting angry that people aren't working properly in a team which everyone since has said had a huge amount of internal issues. That's really not something to draw much from, especially given that Bone7 chose to speak out in support of Envy of his own choice, and Misery chose to team with Envy again which is the biggest endorsement you can get. This does not support the "Envy is cancerous" narrative at all: if that were the case, why has Envy been kicked only once in his entire career (when he was playing terribly, for the record), and why have literally no players ever chosen to leave his team? | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On February 12 2016 00:25 FuzzyJAM wrote: There's a big difference between people giving PR responses to questions and players actively choosing to re-team with a guy or actively choosing to praise him. There's one incident of Envy getting angry that people aren't working properly in a team which everyone since has said had a huge amount of internal issues. That's really not something to draw much from, especially given that Bone7 chose to speak out in support of Envy of his own choice, and Misery chose to team with Envy again which is the biggest endorsement you can get. This does not support the "Envy is cancerous" narrative at all: if that were the case, why has Envy been kicked only once in his entire career (when he was playing terribly, for the record), and why have literally no players ever chosen to leave his team? I might be wrong, it is only an assumption. We (the community) have no real basis to make and support an statement about something that is not even public and will never be. Don't read to much into it, it is my opinion and I am not saying any of you is wrong in any way. | ||
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Souldivnr
Cuba127 Posts
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spudde123
4814 Posts
For ESL inviting them seems pretty straightforward, I believe some teams like EG (and Secret originally) declined the invite already. Idk if teams like Alliance or OG declined or what, the Manila major is pretty close. But Secret is a pretty big draw anyway so it's good for the event. | ||
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uberxD
412 Posts
This team needs to practice vs important teams at a no-scrim setup. After all, they need a decent result in Shangai. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On February 12 2016 00:40 Racket wrote: I might be wrong, it is only an assumption. We (the community) have no real basis to make and support an statement about something that is not even public and will never be. Don't read to much into it, it is my opinion and I am not saying any of you is wrong in any way. So even though 99% of all public opinions about Envy are positive (every C9/Kaipi teammate, EG when he stood in for them, P-God willing to play with him), that's not a "real basis" so you want to call this even because it's theoretically possible that they're all harbouring secret resentment and criticism? Nah dude there are not two equal but opposing sides to this arguments. You don't get to act sanctimonious about this topic and just shit on Envy without getting called out for your garbage logic. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On February 12 2016 12:14 hariooo wrote: So even though 99% of all public opinions about Envy are positive (every C9/Kaipi teammate, EG when he stood in for them, P-God willing to play with him), that's not a "real basis" so you want to call this even because it's theoretically possible that they're all harbouring secret resentment and criticism? Nah dude there are not two equal but opposing sides to this arguments. You don't get to act sanctimonious about this topic and just shit on Envy without getting called out for your garbage logic. Did you read something else and mistook it for my posts? Where did I shit on Envy? I explicitly said he doesn't seem to me the kind of guy you can work with in a healthy environment. I never said he is cancerous, nor toxic, not even impossible to put up with. A lot of people work or live in unhealthy environments and doesn't even realize it, to me in that video he just sounds non constructive and a simple whiner, what happens after that or before that I don't know, that is where I might be wrong. Dota is since always a game full of ragers, flamers, feeders, etc. Any pro player had to deal with that for so long and when the time comes to go pro I guess Envy is an angel in their eyes, more so if he plays as good as he does and he brings to the table his knowledge and unpredictability, he is worth the effort as I already said. I heard many players say there is no point on going public on internal issues because you may ruin the career of someone unnecessarily. Saying you would gladly play again with someone and that truly happening are two different things, if they said "oh no thank you" the next question would be "why?" and then they would say what "because he is such a good teammate..."? Also, it is not the same playing again with EE as playing with EE and Puppey in Secret... what people weight to make a decision is not just what you want to believe. There is RTZ and there is other players, his Kky affair is the perfect example of a teenager not being able to deal with an issue internally and going public because he is not mature enough. You may think my logic is garbage, I don't see how. You may be in love with EE and just knee jerking on any non praising comment. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
Your argument for Envy being a bad teammate is one (1) incident taken from days of filming when he was on the only team he's ever said didn't work at all and from which he's "won" the team split argument insofar as his teammates have backed him, not NoTail. Against this, we have multiple people choosing to re-team with Envy and literally nobody ever choosing to leave his team and multiple people speaking very favourably for him. But apparently that doesn't count because something something reasons everyone is lying. Yeah, 'cause Bone7 totally needed to Tweet? C'mon, be honest in what you're saying. If you don't like a player that's cool, but don't project that onto everyone else when it simply doesn't stand up and then say "Yeah well everyone is lying, I know how they really feel!" | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On February 12 2016 18:14 FuzzyJAM wrote: You called Envy "unbearable" and said that people couldn't stand him and that it's impossible to have a healthy working relationship with him. If you can't own up to that being extreme criticism of someone in a team game then there's not much point discussing anything with you. Your argument for Envy being a bad teammate is one (1) incident taken from days of filming when he was on the only team he's ever said didn't work at all and from which he's "won" the team split argument insofar as his teammates have backed him, not NoTail. Against this, we have multiple people choosing to re-team with Envy and literally nobody ever choosing to leave his team and multiple people speaking very favourably for him. But apparently that doesn't count because something something reasons everyone is lying. Yeah, 'cause Bone7 totally needed to Tweet? C'mon, be honest in what you're saying. If you don't like a player that's cool, but don't project that onto everyone else when it simply doesn't stand up and then say "Yeah well everyone is lying, I know how they really feel!" My words were "I never imagined him different, he is there just as I portrayed him. I am 100% sure he is not someone you can work with in a healthy way. He may be good and passionate but that doesn't translate into bearable/standable.", your interpretation is off, I have never spoken of his teammates there and didn't say he IS unbearable but that his passion doesn't [have to] translate into that. Of course without the "have to" I just wrote, it can be completely misunderstood. And of course you don't have to know what "healthy way" means to me, so I will explain, to me that means a different way of solving problems or even addressing them, instead of the way he is seen there, I expect a more conveying way to discuss the issues instead of "we need to have a natural instinct to play as a team, to group up, against a good team we are gonna get fking punished, smashed", that is not constructive but plain whine. Again, what happened before that or after that I don't know and he may be exactly the opposite to what I expect. You are basing he is a good teammate on what players share with the community, which is mostly gentleman's talk. Of course if bone7 was on his side or was his friend and things escalated he would defend him, just like any other would do. I never said he was a bad teammate. Anything I wrote containing those notions, for instance "What players share with the community about their teammates is mostly lies, white lies if you will, because telling the community EE is a crappy teammate", were examples, you can change EE with Kky or any other player, it is not an statement about a specific player nor a judgement. I am not saying either that I know how they really feel, I am saying they are not necessarily saying the truth or the whole truth, they may say he is a good teammate (and that would be true) and save for themselves that he whines too much, it happens in real life why wouldn't it be part of Dota? | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
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Racket
3023 Posts
On February 12 2016 20:11 FuzzyJAM wrote: Hiding behind ambiguities is incredibly childish. The natural reading of what you've said is obvious, and if you didn't intend it then you communicated poorly so just admit that and move on. I admit it, I communicated poorly. I said it in my previous post. I won't argue with you about misinterpretations, ambiguities and obviousness, makes no sense if you can't accept the fact that a few words can be misunderstood or not completely understood even when the writer stated he gave for granted things he had in his mind but didn't express them completely. Edit: Also, english is not my mother language, I try my hardest to write properly but not every expression or word I use may have the exact same meaning as it does in my language and that also leads to misunderstandings. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
The end of the argument for me is that most of those who have teamed with Envy have expressly stated he is an excellent teammate even when not prompted, that only once in his entire career has anyone chosen to stop teaming with him (i.e. Alliance, when he played horribly), and that multiple teammates have expressed interest in re-teaming with him and actually done so. He gets praised more than most. If you think the people who have actually teamed with him are wrong, or that they're all just giving PR nonsense answers, or that people are actively choosing to team with someone whom they know to be a bad teammate, then that's up to you, but I can't say I've found any case you've made remotely convincing. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On February 12 2016 20:25 FuzzyJAM wrote: "your interpretation is off", "you misunderstood" - yeah man, that's totally you accepting that you communicated poorly. . .Whatever, you've actually done so now, and this is not a forum for language discussion so I don't care all that much. The end of the argument for me is that most of those who have teamed with Envy have expressly stated he is an excellent teammate even when not prompted, that only once in his entire career has anyone chosen to stop teaming with him (i.e. Alliance, when he played horribly), and that multiple teammates have expressed interest in re-teaming with him and actually done so. He gets praised more than most. If you think the people who have actually teamed with him are wrong, or that they're all just giving PR nonsense answers, or that people are actively choosing to team with someone whom they know to be a bad teammate, then that's up to you, but I can't say I've found any case you've made remotely convincing. "[...] your interpretation is off, I have never spoken of his teammates there and didn't say he IS unbearable but that his passion doesn't [have to] translate into that. Of course without the "have to" I just wrote, it can be completely misunderstood. And of course you don't have to know what "healthy way" means to me, so I will explain [...]" that is the right quote, if you wanna make your point make it right, quoting what you want for the sake of whipping me is no fun. If the previous quote have no content that gives you the hint I am accepting I communicated poorly then I don't know anything anymore. It is all right, my opinion is mine, I am not trying to convince anyone, it is the other way around, and it is also ok. I may change my mind about him any day, if I hated so much the dude you would see me spreading hate here and there all the time. I have only spoken bad of one player, ppd, when those screenshots of the chat discussion were made public. I may be just reacting to his voice timbre, like many people do with Nightblue3. Whatever. | ||
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Exoteric
Australia2330 Posts
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wims80
1892 Posts
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Racket
3023 Posts
There you go. Edit: Hope you can forgive me and let us move on. /hug | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
Like in this case the conversation started by someone being "100% sure" you can't work with a player in a healthy way and that the player isn't bearable. Whatever you meant in your head, it's easy to see why people can look at a statement like that and think it's stupid. Looking at the clip it doesn't really give a great picture of EE to me either but whether I would consider something like that incredibly "toxic" or just a sign that someone cares about the team and gets a bit too emotional about it depends on what happened in the team in general. A player getting very emotional all the time is certainly not the optimal way to fix issues, but one clip is not necessarily representative of the general picture. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On February 12 2016 22:00 spudde123 wrote: The point of a forum is to discuss things. It's just that often times (not only when it comes to EE) criticism starts with sweeping generalizations or statements that easily can be disputed because they go against what actually happens in the games we see or what we have seen about the players outside of the game. Part of it is just from people drawing conclusions from all sorts of little things and thinking they know everything, part is just wording things in a silly way so people jump on it, when it comes to gameplay there often is analysis that easily can be shown to be completely incorrect and that is just based on some stereotype, etc.. Like in this case the conversation started by someone being "100% sure" you can't work with a player in a healthy way and that the player isn't bearable. Whatever you meant in your head, it's easy to see why people can look at a statement like that and think it's stupid. Looking at the clip it doesn't really give a great picture of EE to me either but whether I would consider something like that incredibly "toxic" or just a sign that someone cares about the team and gets a bit too emotional about it depends on what happened in the team in general. You are totally right. | ||
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Exoteric
Australia2330 Posts
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pyrocumulus
United States65 Posts
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