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On October 21 2014 05:43 Snerd wrote:
Really sucks that talented players would be willing to put their entire career on the line for a could hundred dollars.
Makes me sick.
the problem here is that they aren't getting enough money in the first place to justify staying pro gamers, esp. if they are not students, have a significant other (esp. if they have or want to have children)
as much as The International and all the other premier tournaments try to prevent it, the scene is still top-heavy, and in regions where sponsorship dollars generate less value, there is little money other than prizes.
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Is this when the community realizes that Solo got off way too fucking easy? Tournaments should grow balls and re-ban him, because it's a joke that he got off by just being a westerner, saying sorry, and getting a 1 month probation.
If the SEA teams are getting bans, the entire scene needs to turn the fuck around and do it to Solo as well. Having a standard really means nothing when it's as flexible as "oh well he's a good player and apologized!" I am still #1 savior fan, he was a god, but still deserved the ban.
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On October 21 2014 07:17 lolnoty wrote:
Is this when the community realizes that Solo got off way too fucking easy? Tournaments should grow balls and re-ban him, because it's a joke that he got off by just being a westerner, saying sorry, and getting a 1 month probation.
If the SEA teams are getting bans, the entire scene needs to turn the fuck around and do it to Solo as well. Having a standard really means nothing when it's as flexible as "oh well he's a good player and apologized!" I am still #1 savior fan, he was a god, but still deserved the ban.
I can get behind this.
So google tells me that the 2500 he was making a month converted into us currency is ~$764. This is less than $5 an hour if he is putting 40 hours a week into it (before taxes). I realize that the exchange doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of cost of living over there so could someone put it into context for me? Maybe how much rent is or food/week for an average person?
Note: Not making excuses, just curious.
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On October 21 2014 07:25 giftdgecko wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 07:17 lolnoty wrote:
Is this when the community realizes that Solo got off way too fucking easy? Tournaments should grow balls and re-ban him, because it's a joke that he got off by just being a westerner, saying sorry, and getting a 1 month probation.
If the SEA teams are getting bans, the entire scene needs to turn the fuck around and do it to Solo as well. Having a standard really means nothing when it's as flexible as "oh well he's a good player and apologized!" I am still #1 savior fan, he was a god, but still deserved the ban. I can get behind this. So google tells me that the 2500 he was making a month converted into us currency is ~$764. This is less than $5 an hour if he is putting 40 hours a week into it (before taxes). I realize that the exchange doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of cost of living over there so could someone put it into context for me? Maybe how much rent is or food/week for an average person? Note: Not making excuses, just curious.
It's considered mid-average tier 2 salary for a fresh degree graduate. Not that bad actually.
I'm a lawyer-in-training from a top 5 UK uni, and I only make marginally more than them (in fact, less as long as they pull in more than 1k a month in winnings).
A lot of high school and diploma holders make do making only RM1500 a month.
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Meanwhile Solo never actually got punished for creating the term 322
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On October 20 2014 22:53 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 22:26 Heyoka wrote:
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
If you drop the idealistic thinking the actual damage done is fairly minimal. Match fixing occurs in mainstream sports on a much larger scale and those sports are doing pretty well sponsor-wise. Yes, some sponsors may stop supporting the offending team or individual, but on the whole they don't care about the integrity of the scene, all they care about is exposure and will continue investing in the sport as long as it is popular enough. Everyone makes mistakes, and refusing to give people second chances is some medieval concept of justice to me. Give them a warning, disqualify them for a year, that will be deterrent enough. A year away from the pro scene is a pretty serious punishment for an aspiring player. If they try do that again, then you can start talking about lifetime bans.
Thank you, everyone needs to relax and think clearly. I don't get why people are hell-bent on causing as much destruction as possible by heavy handed punishments that leave 0 room for redemption. Give them some kind of probation from games and have them do some community service or some shit and let them learn from the mistake and become better individuals because of it. Have them campaign against matchfixing in Dota 2 for a year if you really want to get specific, that adds to the cause and forces them to acknowledge what they did was wrong. What more do you want?
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Sounds like he is genuinely sorry that he got caught.
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On October 21 2014 09:58 ControlMonkey wrote:
Sounds like he is genuinely sorry that he got caught.
Yup Solo, Saviour,and all the rest were very sorry that they got caught as well
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retroactive ban is stupid
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On October 21 2014 09:09 AciD_DotA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 22:53 Random() wrote:On October 20 2014 22:26 Heyoka wrote:
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
If you drop the idealistic thinking the actual damage done is fairly minimal. Match fixing occurs in mainstream sports on a much larger scale and those sports are doing pretty well sponsor-wise. Yes, some sponsors may stop supporting the offending team or individual, but on the whole they don't care about the integrity of the scene, all they care about is exposure and will continue investing in the sport as long as it is popular enough. Everyone makes mistakes, and refusing to give people second chances is some medieval concept of justice to me. Give them a warning, disqualify them for a year, that will be deterrent enough. A year away from the pro scene is a pretty serious punishment for an aspiring player. If they try do that again, then you can start talking about lifetime bans. Thank you, everyone needs to relax and think clearly. I don't get why people are hell-bent on causing as much destruction as possible by heavy handed punishments that leave 0 room for redemption. Give them some kind of probation from games and have them do some community service or some shit and let them learn from the mistake and become better individuals because of it. Have them campaign against matchfixing in Dota 2 for a year if you really want to get specific, that adds to the cause and forces them to acknowledge what they did was wrong. What more do you want?
a lot of the newer posters don't realize the connotations of being a TL affiliated forum. I wasn't active in the Brood War days of TL (I first started visiting the site when SC2 beta arrived) but I remember the hubbub with Savior. You have to understand that for a lot of the old guard, especially those that remember the glory days of BW, they associate match fixing with the death of BW. Indeed, a lot of Koreans and those within the scene at the time have commented on how Savior and that whole fiasco essentially destroyed the public's trust and interest in the game especially among the casual fanbase in Korea.
tl;dr matchfixing is going to be an extremely touchy subject on a Liquid forum. For good reason.
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savior was a ringleader. the mastermind. the head honcho. the don.
Furthermore he was a superstar. top 10 salary pro. He was called a god while 'Nada' was mere mortal before him. And he DID destroy the public trust in esports.
ddz was more personal i reckon. though I would seriously investigate the matchfixer connection.
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They may be sorry they got caught, that doesn't mean they're sorry that they match-fixed.
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A lot of people seem to think they did this because they weren't making enough money. If it was all about the money, there are much better ways to get it.
Don't try to rationalize their decision when their decision was irrational. It won't make sense.
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On October 20 2014 20:40 Heyoka wrote:
As an aside it's fairly disgusting to me to see it referred to as "322" in these official statements, given that phrase has essentially been used exclusively as a twitch meme for the last two years. Though I understand it is convenient shorthand here for what happened, it's taking something that could seriously hurt the future of Dota and treating it like a joke.
Just a sign that Esports isn't anywhere near the professionalism we all are used to from many other things.
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There is occurances of matchfixing or similar in all known sports there is no clear cut answer on how to deal with it. The best bet so far is to increase regulations and give harsh dissuading punishments.There has been 2 cases in as many years in dota2, Makes you wonder how much is slipping by undetected.
I have no insight whatsoever in the money betting systems in place. I can only assume that they are growing side by side with the betting of everything else in dota. I really dont see that they would even benefit on trying to find cheats as they are part of their profit margin. Some kind of objective third party will sooner or later be needed to research and investigate. Before things of this nature has gone to far.
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On October 21 2014 12:06 danl9rm wrote:
A lot of people seem to think they did this because they weren't making enough money. If it was all about the money, there are much better ways to get it.
Don't try to rationalize their decision when their decision was irrational. It won't make sense.
Well technically they keep saying (girlfriend's statements, other statements) that it was because of money. I rather pin it on poor financial or economic situations than outright say, "these people are evil people and would do it again even if they had it all". But maybe I'm just naive.
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zzz
User was warned for this post
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They should have thought about the consequences before doing it. I bet they assumed they probably won't get caught.
Now confessing was their only good option. Hard to forgive something like this though.
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It has a good side. People talk about solo again. Never forget!
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EPT
