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On October 20 2014 22:26 Heyoka wrote:
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
Some days back i would completely agree with you about the lifetime ban, especially after the solo who got to play (what seems to be normal) after not even a year. On the other hand we should not forget that some of the players are (very) young.
Like in every other sport with super talented young players we (the community/viewer) tend to forget the age of some of these and it should go into consideration about the punishment. There are a lot of older people out there that don't even want to think about shit they did in school and players like this stay in the spotlight at that time can be trashed pretty easy.
For this case (under 18-20 years) i would say 3-5 years ban should be enough and if ever something like this comes up again it is 'lifetime ban'.
The thing we need the most is an organization of tournament and team organizers to hand out the agreed punishment in a consistent and rightful manner without loopholes to get back into the szene for the time of the punishment, because the main problem is that the way this is handled is way to inconsistent (again, look at the 'solo' case) and leaves obvious loopholes.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On October 20 2014 22:26 Heyoka wrote:
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
If you drop the idealistic thinking the actual damage done is fairly minimal. Match fixing occurs in mainstream sports on a much larger scale and those sports are doing pretty well sponsor-wise. Yes, some sponsors may stop supporting the offending team or individual, but on the whole they don't care about the integrity of the scene, all they care about is exposure and will continue investing in the sport as long as it is popular enough.
Everyone makes mistakes, and refusing to give people second chances is some medieval concept of justice to me. Give them a warning, disqualify them for a year, that will be deterrent enough. A year away from the pro scene is a pretty serious punishment for an aspiring player. If they try do that again, then you can start talking about lifetime bans.
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Just ban him and we can move on with our lives. I've been following a lot of games these past few days and the amount of 322 spam when somebody gets chain-stunned and can't activate bkb in time is appalling. Dota has lived perfectly fine even without item-betting, now its like the whole scene only cares about 'muh arcanas'
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What a terrible scenario.
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On October 20 2014 22:53 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 22:26 Heyoka wrote:
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
If you drop the idealistic thinking the actual damage done is fairly minimal. Match fixing occurs in mainstream sports on a much larger scale and those sports are doing pretty well sponsor-wise. Yes, some sponsors may stop supporting the offending team or individual, but on the whole they don't care about the integrity of the scene, all they care about is exposure and will continue investing in the sport as long as it is popular enough. Everyone makes mistakes, and refusing to give people second chances is some medieval concept of justice to me. Give them a warning, disqualify them for a year, that will be deterrent enough. A year away from the pro scene is a pretty serious punishment for an aspiring player. If they try do that again, then you can start talking about lifetime bans.
The problem with match fixing is that the damage is done to something that cannot be measured, public trust. Once people start to doubt that a team is playing to win, its it very hard to get that trust back. That is why there are such harsh penalties. The same thing goes for anything that is based on trust in the professional world. People are assuming to be telling the truth under oath and they throw the book if you lie on purpose. People’s good faith is not something you joke around with or take lightly.
I agree with the life time ban, not because of the match fixing, but the effort to cover it up afterwards. If they got busted and admitted it, then 1-3 years would have been fine.
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If the manager's version of their salaries are indeed true (RM2500 + 10% winnings), then they truely are underpaid my ass. To provide some context: most mid-average local fresh graduates here generally only make about 2-2.5k. At the lower end, there are plenty making only 1.5-2k a month.
Considering most of Arrow's player's qualifications for a conventional job, what they are earning now is plenty.
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this is why watching the other scenes is so much more appealing to somebody like me.
you know the teams, the players, and the organizations involved, as well as the motivation and drive of all the people involved. it is seemingly as plain as night and day.
when it comes to a scene that is still growing (which could include the entire dota community as a whole), the amount of time you dedicate to being a fan or growing an encyclopedia of knowledge for yourself is hurt bit by bit when you know at the back of your mind that sometimes a game may not matter--it could be as easy as one throw, or making a mistake that's entirely possible.
at the end of the day i know that everyone will keep trying to impress and continue winning. i'm just not too sure these individuals will be able to make something of themselves after the plug they've placed on both their careers and their respective scenes.
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Man I wonder what this young talent's parents think about this matchfixing stuff...
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Katowice25012 Posts
On October 20 2014 22:53 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 22:26 Heyoka wrote:
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
If you drop the idealistic thinking the actual damage done is fairly minimal. Match fixing occurs in mainstream sports on a much larger scale and those sports are doing pretty well sponsor-wise. Yes, some sponsors may stop supporting the offending team or individual, but on the whole they don't care about the integrity of the scene, all they care about is exposure and will continue investing in the sport as long as it is popular enough. Everyone makes mistakes, and refusing to give people second chances is some medieval concept of justice to me. Give them a warning, disqualify them for a year, that will be deterrent enough. A year away from the pro scene is a pretty serious punishment for an aspiring player. If they try do that again, then you can start talking about lifetime bans.
I think the more analogous situation here is the BroodWar scandal which ended up being a death knell for an already fading scene. I don't know that you can compare an institutionalized sport which one that is still grasping for bigger and better things, and even then the instances of player misconduct that get attention in America (mostly NFL players doing insane shit that has nothing to do with football) do end in a loss of sponsors.
It's a good point that with esports careers being so short something like a 3 year ban is essentially life though.
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On October 20 2014 20:40 Heyoka wrote:
As an aside it's fairly disgusting to me to see it referred to as "322" in these official statements, given that phrase has essentially been used exclusively as a twitch meme for the last two years. Though I understand it is convenient shorthand here for what happened, it's taking something that could seriously hurt the future of Dota and treating it like a joke.
This ^
Fuck 322, this is match fixing, and this is a big deal.
Also they're givin 10% of tourney winnings1 only ? Ho well I guess 10% for each player and 50% for the manager, this can work.
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On October 20 2014 23:02 S_SienZ wrote:
If the manager's version of their salaries are indeed true (RM2500 + 10% winnings), then they truely are underpaid my ass. To provide some context: most mid-average local fresh graduates here generally only make about 2-2.5k. At the lower end, there are plenty making only 1.5-2k a month.
Considering most of Arrow's player's qualifications for a conventional job, what they are earning now is plenty.
Although RM2500 is an OK salary in Malaysia, the problem is that there may not be any progression. While a fresh grad can expect to earn that much in their first job, there is an expectation that it would increase with time. Now salary progression in esports here is a little uncharted but I expect that it should be higher because a progamer's career is much shorter than conventional careers so the players really need to earn as much as possible. Especially since Arrow was a team that took part in a TI.
Now the 10% winnings part, I'm kinda split. It seems pretty low but if Arrow pays for travel and accommodation then it might be alright? (I have no basis for comparison, I wonder how other teams handle prize money).
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On October 21 2014 00:06 cravin74 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 23:02 S_SienZ wrote:
If the manager's version of their salaries are indeed true (RM2500 + 10% winnings), then they truely are underpaid my ass. To provide some context: most mid-average local fresh graduates here generally only make about 2-2.5k. At the lower end, there are plenty making only 1.5-2k a month.
Considering most of Arrow's player's qualifications for a conventional job, what they are earning now is plenty. Although RM2500 is an OK salary in Malaysia, the problem is that there may not be any progression. While a fresh grad can expect to earn that much in their first job, there is an expectation that it would increase with time. Now salary progression in esports here is a little uncharted but I expect that it should be higher because a progamer's career is much shorter than conventional careers so the players really need to earn as much as possible. Especially since Arrow was a team that took part in a TI. Now the 10% winnings part, I'm kinda split. It seems pretty low but if Arrow pays for travel and accommodation then it might be alright? (I have no basis for comparison, I wonder how other teams handle prize money).
Can you name me a business model in SEA where paying them more would be self-sustainable though?
Bear in mind eSports is still largely reliant on passionate volunteers and sponsors, and how little infrastructure SEA has. The fact that these players are even salaried decently is pretty good.
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If those numbers are true, they had enough to life decently in Kuala Lumpur according to what I googled.
edit : ok apparently I spent some times idling seeing the above posts ^^
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The attempt to cover it up just made it worse... I would like to see at least a year ban actually enforced on the players by tournaments this time and not let them get the same lack of attention the "322" situation got. Arrow as an organization needs a hard ban as well for the attempted cover up. "Well, let's all try to deny it and fake some chat logs... We got caught so you players are fired, team has to save face... Poor us we are so underpaid by our team we had no choice..."
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Ok. Matchfixing? Bad, very bad. A very silly thing to take the risk of doing and potentially ruin things for both yourself and for other people.
But personally I feel the most foolish thing here was trying to cover it up. You just don't do that. Its the one way to guarantee you utterly destroy your own credibility for good. :-\
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It's his fault, next time anyone who does it just have to be careful and not get caught, it's pretty simple actually..
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Yep, the fact that he made his bullshit statement (now he blames the manager for it, but I don't believe him, since he's already matchfixed, and then lied about it) takes all his credibility away.
Permanent ban from TI and other major tournaments who choose to do so sounds about right. And then maybe a two year ban on every other tournament would be ideal. I will never be a fan of this player or Lance again, regardless of what they do. I don't believe them if they try to tell me that they didn't know how significant of an offense match fixing is.
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On October 21 2014 00:29 FrostNixon wrote:
It's his fault, next time anyone who does it just have to be careful and not get caught, it's pretty simple actually..
Next time we have to be wary of it, so it doesn't happen again.
Things that have potential to be abused in an internet community must be strictly monitored, as there is little accountability, lots of crazy people, etc.
Betting websites are also hurt a lot, because if they know match fixing is a thing, they need to build in a bigger buffer for returns when it occurs, hence offering lower odds. Everyone loses except the silly child who thought he could make a few extra bucks by committing a crime.
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United States13143 Posts
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First time I really disappointed in 2p.com.
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EPT
