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Katowice25012 Posts
DDZ just posted through facebook an apology about the recent Arrow Gaming debacle that saw his team accused of fixing a game in Synergy League against Can't Saw Wips. He admits fault and says that him and Lance did take payment to set the result and is willing to accept his punishment.
This comes on the back of a reddit post yesterday claiming that the evidence used to expel them from leagues such as The Summit 2 and Synergy League was fabricated, and that there was no wrongdoing. This is also covered in the apology, where he explains it was their manager attempting damage control.
大家好，我是ddz。我要向所有朋友与粉丝道歉，因为我的举动已经害了大家，连累了大家也辜负了大家对我的期望。
我想让大家知道我当初为什么会这样做，是因为我们需要赚多点外快。我明白身为一个玩家是不被鼓励下注，但是我希望你们明白我们的处境，并没有你们想象中那么容易简单。
我也想说对不起，因为当初没有提早承认，反而却一直想掩护自己的错误。因为当时我很害怕，所以就跟了其他的人的话去做。我也很抱歉因为我当时真的没有发现到这举动有多么的不道德。我希望大家能给我们一个机会，我们已经知错了，也终于有了勇气认错。我们向大家保证，以后不会再有这样的事情发生。非常的对不起。我相信大家想知道的是真相，而不是一错再错的谎言。
The purpose of writing this is to clarify about the 322 incident.
But firstly, we, the 5 members of Arrow Gaming as well as XiaoTing and Hishiko (DDZ and Lance’s girlfriends), would like to sincerely apologize to the organizers, Synergy League and BeyondTheSummit, and to our fans as well as the Dota 2 community for all the trouble we have caused.
Firstly, we want to admit that the 322 by DDZ and Lance is true, and we are very sorry for this mistake. We considered doing it in the first place because we were desperate for money. We live in the city, and being underpaid, things are just very tough and harsh on us sometimes. We are very very sorry for this action and we should have never done it.
We were very afraid and lost, and didn’t know what to do and how to react. And thus, we approached our management for help and we were advised to cover up for the sake of our reputation. We knew this was wrong but we felt extremely pressured to follow whatever our manager Jaren Gan, said, as we are working for him.
The statement, as well as the ‘evidence’ provided, that was made in DDZ’s name, was not written by him, but by Jaren for damage control. We know this is wrong and it made things even worse by covering up a mistake with lies. We should not have let it happen.
We are also sorry for not confessing earlier, and also very sorry for letting all our fans and the Dota 2 community down. We are deeply sorry for not following our hearts and just doing what is right, because we were afraid and terrified of what would happen to us. Gaming is our life and we were afraid that we would lose everything because of our greed and desperation.
But no matter what it is, we accept 100% the punishment and consequences that is to be made to us, and we give our word and our promise that this will never happen again. It was an extremely stupid mistake, and we made it worse by doing something we knew was wrong instead of admitting it straight away.
We have finally found the courage to admit it and to confess because we know that lies will only lead to more lies and we will never find peace of mind. We believe that telling people the truth and admitting our mistakes, even if it may be too late, is the right thing to do.
We are also very sorry that we were too stupid to realize how unethical it was… we are sorry for everything that we have done. We have betrayed our fans’ trust and faith in us, and we will never forgive ourselves. We hope that you can forgive us even after all we’ve done. Thank you.
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Katowice25012 Posts
As an aside it's fairly disgusting to me to see it referred to as "322" in these official statements, given that phrase has essentially been used exclusively as a twitch meme for the last two years. Though I understand it is convenient shorthand here for what happened, it's taking something that could seriously hurt the future of Dota and treating it like a joke.
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so much for an apology, lol. damage already done, their manager dug them a deeper hole and they were too young and inexperienced to learn how to deal with it properly. Of course being young by no means absolves them from their actions. But it'll most definitely be a really valuable life lesson for them.
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On October 20 2014 20:40 Heyoka wrote:
As an aside it's fairly disgusting to me to see it referred to as "322" in these official statements, given that phrase has essentially been used exclusively as a twitch meme for the last two years. Though I understand it is convenient shorthand here for what happened, it's taking something that could seriously hurt the future of Dota and treating it like a joke.
Yeah. I would have to agree with it. As professionals, making a statement like that is really tarnishing the scene as a whole. I would have expected a more formal statement irrespective of it being longer.
I also can't believe how they attempted to fabricate evidence that they were not involved.
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On October 20 2014 20:40 Heyoka wrote:
As an aside it's fairly disgusting to me to see it referred to as "322" in these official statements, given that phrase has essentially been used exclusively as a twitch meme for the last two years. Though I understand it is convenient shorthand here for what happened, it's taking something that could seriously hurt the future of Dota and treating it like a joke.
it really is very strange. It almost feels like they try to downplay it by calling it 322 instead of calling it match fixing and it bothers me quite a bit as well. It also just looks stupid 
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Magic Woods9326 Posts
It doesn't seem like they are treating this seriously what so ever. It's really bothering me.
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Such a disappointing turn of events. DDZ was showing so much promise as a player and then this happens. Definitely needs punishment, but its sad that he's going to be banned for life.
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On October 20 2014 20:40 Heyoka wrote:
As an aside it's fairly disgusting to me to see it referred to as "322" in these official statements, given that phrase has essentially been used exclusively as a twitch meme for the last two years. Though I understand it is convenient shorthand here for what happened, it's taking something that could seriously hurt the future of Dota and treating it like a joke.
i think its a SEA culture thing, in combination with the amateur attitude in SEA for esports. its relevant to why you have casters like lysander and xyclopz having the styles they have
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I wonder why half of it is in Chinese and the other half is in English.
They should've gone the Solo route and just never admit it actually happened, seems to have worked out.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
lol, was his denial statement even out for 24 hours before this admission?
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I love the excuse for being desperate for money. That's why most people commit crimes of fraud and theft.
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On October 20 2014 21:42 Count9 wrote:
I wonder why half of it is in Chinese and the other half is in English.
They should've gone the Solo route and just never admit it actually happened, seems to have worked out.
iirc ddz's english is pretty poor
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I feel a bit of sympathy for them, because I've heard plenty about how rough it can be over there and especially when esports is your living I imagine it only gets harder. With that said though, it doesn't excuse their actions and man does it sadden me considering how much promise DDZ was showing. I hope they all learn from their mistakes and come back stronger than ever one day.
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Damage has been done.....
Now it's hard to fix it.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
There has to be at least some accepted guidelines regarding the punishment for these things. It's obvious that everyone involved has to be punished, but to be honest I really don't like all this mob justice, "ban them all for life" etc.
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too bad
i wish that tournament organizers in the future put some kind of heavy rule regarding matchfixing. The punishment should be grave in order to prevent(of course it does not prevent some from doing so but at least the dread is there) this kind of events in the future.
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On October 20 2014 20:40 Heyoka wrote:
As an aside it's fairly disgusting to me to see it referred to as "322" in these official statements, given that phrase has essentially been used exclusively as a twitch meme for the last two years. Though I understand it is convenient shorthand here for what happened, it's taking something that could seriously hurt the future of Dota and treating it like a joke.
Not sure how much English DDZ knows, but I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt that he's just using the phrase he is most familiar with. It doesn't feel as though he is trying to downplay this at all.
Sorry that it had to get so bad for him to come clean, but unfortunately life can be harsh. Glad he's willing to accept the punishment.
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I agree with LeLoup that he was likely struggling for a phrase to sum up what he did, rather than using 322 to dismiss what he did. He might not have a good short hand phrase like "match fixing" at his disposal.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On October 20 2014 21:43 ahswtini wrote:
lol, was his denial statement even out for 24 hours before this admission?
Something like 16 I think. Less than a full day.
On October 20 2014 22:14 Random() wrote:
There has to be at least some accepted guidelines regarding the punishment for these things. It's obvious that everyone involved has to be punished, but to be honest I really don't like all this mob justice, "ban them all for life" etc.
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
On October 20 2014 22:21 LeLoup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 20:40 Heyoka wrote:
As an aside it's fairly disgusting to me to see it referred to as "322" in these official statements, given that phrase has essentially been used exclusively as a twitch meme for the last two years. Though I understand it is convenient shorthand here for what happened, it's taking something that could seriously hurt the future of Dota and treating it like a joke. Not sure how much English DDZ knows, but I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt that he's just using the phrase he is most familiar with. It doesn't feel as though he is trying to downplay this at all. Sorry that it had to get so bad for him to come clean, but unfortunately life can be harsh. Glad he's willing to accept the punishment.
I don't think he is particularly comfortable with English so that seems the most likely scenario, he's just using it as shorthand because that's how he knows to communicate the message. I'm not a fan of it but he deserves the benefit of the doubt for sure.
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On October 20 2014 22:26 Heyoka wrote:
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
Some days back i would completely agree with you about the lifetime ban, especially after the solo who got to play (what seems to be normal) after not even a year. On the other hand we should not forget that some of the players are (very) young.
Like in every other sport with super talented young players we (the community/viewer) tend to forget the age of some of these and it should go into consideration about the punishment. There are a lot of older people out there that don't even want to think about shit they did in school and players like this stay in the spotlight at that time can be trashed pretty easy.
For this case (under 18-20 years) i would say 3-5 years ban should be enough and if ever something like this comes up again it is 'lifetime ban'.
The thing we need the most is an organization of tournament and team organizers to hand out the agreed punishment in a consistent and rightful manner without loopholes to get back into the szene for the time of the punishment, because the main problem is that the way this is handled is way to inconsistent (again, look at the 'solo' case) and leaves obvious loopholes.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On October 20 2014 22:26 Heyoka wrote:
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
If you drop the idealistic thinking the actual damage done is fairly minimal. Match fixing occurs in mainstream sports on a much larger scale and those sports are doing pretty well sponsor-wise. Yes, some sponsors may stop supporting the offending team or individual, but on the whole they don't care about the integrity of the scene, all they care about is exposure and will continue investing in the sport as long as it is popular enough.
Everyone makes mistakes, and refusing to give people second chances is some medieval concept of justice to me. Give them a warning, disqualify them for a year, that will be deterrent enough. A year away from the pro scene is a pretty serious punishment for an aspiring player. If they try do that again, then you can start talking about lifetime bans.
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Just ban him and we can move on with our lives. I've been following a lot of games these past few days and the amount of 322 spam when somebody gets chain-stunned and can't activate bkb in time is appalling. Dota has lived perfectly fine even without item-betting, now its like the whole scene only cares about 'muh arcanas'
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What a terrible scenario.
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On October 20 2014 22:53 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 22:26 Heyoka wrote:
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
If you drop the idealistic thinking the actual damage done is fairly minimal. Match fixing occurs in mainstream sports on a much larger scale and those sports are doing pretty well sponsor-wise. Yes, some sponsors may stop supporting the offending team or individual, but on the whole they don't care about the integrity of the scene, all they care about is exposure and will continue investing in the sport as long as it is popular enough. Everyone makes mistakes, and refusing to give people second chances is some medieval concept of justice to me. Give them a warning, disqualify them for a year, that will be deterrent enough. A year away from the pro scene is a pretty serious punishment for an aspiring player. If they try do that again, then you can start talking about lifetime bans.
The problem with match fixing is that the damage is done to something that cannot be measured, public trust. Once people start to doubt that a team is playing to win, its it very hard to get that trust back. That is why there are such harsh penalties. The same thing goes for anything that is based on trust in the professional world. People are assuming to be telling the truth under oath and they throw the book if you lie on purpose. People’s good faith is not something you joke around with or take lightly.
I agree with the life time ban, not because of the match fixing, but the effort to cover it up afterwards. If they got busted and admitted it, then 1-3 years would have been fine.
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If the manager's version of their salaries are indeed true (RM2500 + 10% winnings), then they truely are underpaid my ass. To provide some context: most mid-average local fresh graduates here generally only make about 2-2.5k. At the lower end, there are plenty making only 1.5-2k a month.
Considering most of Arrow's player's qualifications for a conventional job, what they are earning now is plenty.
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this is why watching the other scenes is so much more appealing to somebody like me.
you know the teams, the players, and the organizations involved, as well as the motivation and drive of all the people involved. it is seemingly as plain as night and day.
when it comes to a scene that is still growing (which could include the entire dota community as a whole), the amount of time you dedicate to being a fan or growing an encyclopedia of knowledge for yourself is hurt bit by bit when you know at the back of your mind that sometimes a game may not matter--it could be as easy as one throw, or making a mistake that's entirely possible.
at the end of the day i know that everyone will keep trying to impress and continue winning. i'm just not too sure these individuals will be able to make something of themselves after the plug they've placed on both their careers and their respective scenes.
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Man I wonder what this young talent's parents think about this matchfixing stuff...
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Katowice25012 Posts
On October 20 2014 22:53 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 22:26 Heyoka wrote:
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
If you drop the idealistic thinking the actual damage done is fairly minimal. Match fixing occurs in mainstream sports on a much larger scale and those sports are doing pretty well sponsor-wise. Yes, some sponsors may stop supporting the offending team or individual, but on the whole they don't care about the integrity of the scene, all they care about is exposure and will continue investing in the sport as long as it is popular enough. Everyone makes mistakes, and refusing to give people second chances is some medieval concept of justice to me. Give them a warning, disqualify them for a year, that will be deterrent enough. A year away from the pro scene is a pretty serious punishment for an aspiring player. If they try do that again, then you can start talking about lifetime bans.
I think the more analogous situation here is the BroodWar scandal which ended up being a death knell for an already fading scene. I don't know that you can compare an institutionalized sport which one that is still grasping for bigger and better things, and even then the instances of player misconduct that get attention in America (mostly NFL players doing insane shit that has nothing to do with football) do end in a loss of sponsors.
It's a good point that with esports careers being so short something like a 3 year ban is essentially life though.
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On October 20 2014 20:40 Heyoka wrote:
As an aside it's fairly disgusting to me to see it referred to as "322" in these official statements, given that phrase has essentially been used exclusively as a twitch meme for the last two years. Though I understand it is convenient shorthand here for what happened, it's taking something that could seriously hurt the future of Dota and treating it like a joke.
This ^
Fuck 322, this is match fixing, and this is a big deal.
Also they're givin 10% of tourney winnings1 only ? Ho well I guess 10% for each player and 50% for the manager, this can work.
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On October 20 2014 23:02 S_SienZ wrote:
If the manager's version of their salaries are indeed true (RM2500 + 10% winnings), then they truely are underpaid my ass. To provide some context: most mid-average local fresh graduates here generally only make about 2-2.5k. At the lower end, there are plenty making only 1.5-2k a month.
Considering most of Arrow's player's qualifications for a conventional job, what they are earning now is plenty.
Although RM2500 is an OK salary in Malaysia, the problem is that there may not be any progression. While a fresh grad can expect to earn that much in their first job, there is an expectation that it would increase with time. Now salary progression in esports here is a little uncharted but I expect that it should be higher because a progamer's career is much shorter than conventional careers so the players really need to earn as much as possible. Especially since Arrow was a team that took part in a TI.
Now the 10% winnings part, I'm kinda split. It seems pretty low but if Arrow pays for travel and accommodation then it might be alright? (I have no basis for comparison, I wonder how other teams handle prize money).
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On October 21 2014 00:06 cravin74 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 23:02 S_SienZ wrote:
If the manager's version of their salaries are indeed true (RM2500 + 10% winnings), then they truely are underpaid my ass. To provide some context: most mid-average local fresh graduates here generally only make about 2-2.5k. At the lower end, there are plenty making only 1.5-2k a month.
Considering most of Arrow's player's qualifications for a conventional job, what they are earning now is plenty. Although RM2500 is an OK salary in Malaysia, the problem is that there may not be any progression. While a fresh grad can expect to earn that much in their first job, there is an expectation that it would increase with time. Now salary progression in esports here is a little uncharted but I expect that it should be higher because a progamer's career is much shorter than conventional careers so the players really need to earn as much as possible. Especially since Arrow was a team that took part in a TI. Now the 10% winnings part, I'm kinda split. It seems pretty low but if Arrow pays for travel and accommodation then it might be alright? (I have no basis for comparison, I wonder how other teams handle prize money).
Can you name me a business model in SEA where paying them more would be self-sustainable though?
Bear in mind eSports is still largely reliant on passionate volunteers and sponsors, and how little infrastructure SEA has. The fact that these players are even salaried decently is pretty good.
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If those numbers are true, they had enough to life decently in Kuala Lumpur according to what I googled.
edit : ok apparently I spent some times idling seeing the above posts ^^
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The attempt to cover it up just made it worse... I would like to see at least a year ban actually enforced on the players by tournaments this time and not let them get the same lack of attention the "322" situation got. Arrow as an organization needs a hard ban as well for the attempted cover up. "Well, let's all try to deny it and fake some chat logs... We got caught so you players are fired, team has to save face... Poor us we are so underpaid by our team we had no choice..."
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Ok. Matchfixing? Bad, very bad. A very silly thing to take the risk of doing and potentially ruin things for both yourself and for other people.
But personally I feel the most foolish thing here was trying to cover it up. You just don't do that. Its the one way to guarantee you utterly destroy your own credibility for good. :-\
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It's his fault, next time anyone who does it just have to be careful and not get caught, it's pretty simple actually..
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Yep, the fact that he made his bullshit statement (now he blames the manager for it, but I don't believe him, since he's already matchfixed, and then lied about it) takes all his credibility away.
Permanent ban from TI and other major tournaments who choose to do so sounds about right. And then maybe a two year ban on every other tournament would be ideal. I will never be a fan of this player or Lance again, regardless of what they do. I don't believe them if they try to tell me that they didn't know how significant of an offense match fixing is.
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On October 21 2014 00:29 FrostNixon wrote:
It's his fault, next time anyone who does it just have to be careful and not get caught, it's pretty simple actually..
Next time we have to be wary of it, so it doesn't happen again.
Things that have potential to be abused in an internet community must be strictly monitored, as there is little accountability, lots of crazy people, etc.
Betting websites are also hurt a lot, because if they know match fixing is a thing, they need to build in a bigger buffer for returns when it occurs, hence offering lower odds. Everyone loses except the silly child who thought he could make a few extra bucks by committing a crime.
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United States13143 Posts
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First time I really disappointed in 2p.com.
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Meh, I don't see the big deal here. Match fixing happens in most sports, is done by people who can't get to the (well paid) very top and are desperate to make as much money as they can in their limited time. Bans and punishments don't stop them from doing it anyways.
So what gives? They were discovered, punished, move on.
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On October 21 2014 01:36 zdfgucker wrote:
Meh, I don't see the big deal here. Match fixing happens in most sports, is done by people who can't get to the (well paid) very top and are desperate to make as much money as they can in their limited time. Bans and punishments don't stop them from doing it anyways.
So what gives? They were discovered, punished, move on.
If we were in BW sub-forum, you would get tempbanned for such an obvious trolling attempt.
This issue shouldn't be taken lightly, we should show zero sympathy towards the culprits.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
Ok I don't really know what's going on anymore
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On October 21 2014 01:36 zdfgucker wrote:
Meh, I don't see the big deal here. Match fixing happens in most sports, is done by people who can't get to the (well paid) very top and are desperate to make as much money as they can in their limited time. Bans and punishments don't stop them from doing it anyways.
So what gives? They were discovered, punished, move on.
In many sports you can easily end up in jail for match-fixing, not to mention heavy fines, We need to ensure their are properly punished (as well as have a correct assessment of the situation)... And put obstacles in place, to not allow this to happen easily in the future.
As for the article posted... Their manager doesn't sound like the most amazing of people, but to me, the players look far worse than the manager imo. If they were paid, and it seems to me that the manager for most part followed the contract (though he didn't go above it), while clearly ddz and lance didn't, by partaking in match-fixing. And what the... They were making the average undergrad salary playing Dota in SEA, and they are complaining? Are you serious?
That's the equivalent of making $60,000 here in Canada, please tell me how many people make that money playing Dota 2 from salary, not to mention it doesn't even include their prize winnings. They did not have enough viewership or popularity to even warrant that much imo. Days of pro players making $200-$400/month in US, Canada, Germany, etc are not that far away, and that is much less money than these ex-Arrow guys were making if you consider PPP.
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Man i think that in a community like DOTA2 matchfixing hurts the communitu way more than any normal sport.
People will always love Football, soccer, basketball, baseball, etc. but esports is very young.
A sport that originated with the increase of technology and it has the potential to crumble quickly from incidents like this.
Esports is popular, but nothing like any of the major sports.
Much like heyoka said, if we lose the sponsorship amongst players then esports is gone.
It urks me how he tries to play the pity card a bit with the whole short on money living in the city deal. Now hes really gonna be hurting for money....
I wish there could be official press releases where they make their statements on camera because then we can hear the sincerity in their voice.
Idk i thought this was a weak statement and hope he receives severe punishment
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Lance, ddz and their gf's are banned from competitive dota2 for life. As long as Arrow organization don't change their manager, their team prohibited from playing at Synergy league because Jaren can't be trusted anymore after that cover-up incident.
Whether other international organizations follow Synergy's suit is remains to be seen, though I am almost sure any Chinese org/D2CL/BTS don't want to take risks with everyone indirectly involved in a scandal for a year, at least.
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I just love the whole idea of "the evil manipulative girlfriends are the masterminds behind everything".
The SEA region as a whole seems to be in a flux
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the damage control was not very effective...
On October 21 2014 02:07 Kuroeeah wrote:
I just love the whole idea of "the evil manipulative girlfriends are the masterminds behind everything".
The SEA region as a whole seems to be in a flux
i cant see this whole situation being good for their relationship(s). boyfriend potentially about to lose job as progamer, is blaming girlfriend in public......
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When you start throwing your girlfriend under the bus in public, you might want to reexamine why you were dating in the first place.
But yeah, these are kids getting caught doing something dumb and then increasing the dumb by not fessing up.
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I feel sorry for these guys- they can't make a decent wage off of playing Dota (unless they're Team Malaysia and win pretty much SEA event they enter) so they have to match fix to make any money.
SEA needs legit teams and sponsors to make the scene sustainable, but match fixing sets them back so much.
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On October 21 2014 02:39 tehh4ck3r wrote:
I feel sorry for these guys- they can't make a decent wage off of playing Dota (unless they're Team Malaysia and win pretty much SEA event they enter) so they have to match fix to make any money.
SEA needs legit teams and sponsors to make the scene sustainable, but match fixing sets them back so much.
Go to reddit please.
@Plansix, from what I've understood the statement in Chinese is written by ddz and he doesn't blame anyone (his manager or gf) there. The statement in English is written by his gf, who is desperately trying to play blame game and doesn't show a slight remorse. We shouldn't judge who's less guilty in this incident, though, just let them share the same fate to the end.
Maybe their feelings can overcome the absence of critical thinking and public shame, but I honestly doubt it.
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On October 21 2014 02:39 tehh4ck3r wrote:
I feel sorry for these guys- they can't make a decent wage off of playing Dota (unless they're Team Malaysia and win pretty much SEA event they enter) so they have to match fix to make any money.
SEA needs legit teams and sponsors to make the scene sustainable, but match fixing sets them back so much.
Man, we're trying, we really are (to explain how this logic is completely flawed).... sigh.
If I like picking mushrooms for a living, but nobody will pay me well to do it, will I go commit crimes, or switch careers? In SEA esports is not popular enough given their low disposable incomes to justify large sponsors to come in. Sponsors are not coming in because of that, not because of any superficial reasons.
Sponsors do not make a scene sustainable, popularity does, everything else is an effect of popularity. Please realize this.
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On October 21 2014 02:48 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 02:39 tehh4ck3r wrote:
I feel sorry for these guys- they can't make a decent wage off of playing Dota (unless they're Team Malaysia and win pretty much SEA event they enter) so they have to match fix to make any money.
SEA needs legit teams and sponsors to make the scene sustainable, but match fixing sets them back so much. Man, we're trying, we really are (to explain how this logic is completely flawed).... sigh. If I like picking mushrooms for a living, but nobody will pay me well to do it, will I go commit crimes, or switch careers? In SEA esports is not popular enough given their low disposable incomes to justify large sponsors to come in. Sponsors are not coming in because of that, not because of any superficial reasons. Sponsors do not make a scene sustainable, popularity does, everything else is an effect of popularity. Please realize this.
He's not saying that the actions were right; he's saying that there were valid reasons (from their point of view) to do whatever they did. Obviously this attitude isn't the right one to adopt when you look at Mushi, who rejected Titan's contract at the moment because he feels that the team doesn't deserve it yet.
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He practically speaks no English
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You know, it IS possible to both empathize with the SEA players in this situation and at the same time, also agree with the punishments they are receiving. While the end result actions/consequences are straight forward, the deeper issues and circumstances that lead up to the match-fixing are not so cut and dry.
It's just as ignorant as saying all Islamic terrorists are attacking us because they hate our freedom! 'Murica!!!
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On October 21 2014 02:48 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 02:39 tehh4ck3r wrote:
I feel sorry for these guys- they can't make a decent wage off of playing Dota (unless they're Team Malaysia and win pretty much SEA event they enter) so they have to match fix to make any money.
SEA needs legit teams and sponsors to make the scene sustainable, but match fixing sets them back so much. Man, we're trying, we really are (to explain how this logic is completely flawed).... sigh. If I like picking mushrooms for a living, but nobody will pay me well to do it, will I go commit crimes, or switch careers? In SEA esports is not popular enough given their low disposable incomes to justify large sponsors to come in. Sponsors are not coming in because of that, not because of any superficial reasons. Sponsors do not make a scene sustainable, popularity does, everything else is an effect of popularity. Please realize this.
If you looked at the numbers in SEA for dota2 popularity, it is among the most popular regions for dota2, ranking similarly with all of China and higher than the US east+west. However, I suspect that the sponsors in SEA don't have as much money compared to the rest of the world, thus it is logical to find higher income elsewhere, even if they can scrape out a living due to the cheap costs (outside of singapore). However, it has not made sense since the beginning of dota2 for non local sponsors to sponsor dota2 teams in SEA, especially since china cannot play online with SEA anymore, leading to decreased coverage
Funnily enough, SEA also contains a complete opposite of itself: Korea, which has extremely low dota2 popularity but a lot of money going into it because of Nexon.
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Really sucks that talented players would be willing to put their entire career on the line for a could hundred dollars.
Makes me sick.
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On October 21 2014 05:43 Snerd wrote:
Really sucks that talented players would be willing to put their entire career on the line for a could hundred dollars.
Makes me sick.
the problem here is that they aren't getting enough money in the first place to justify staying pro gamers, esp. if they are not students, have a significant other (esp. if they have or want to have children)
as much as The International and all the other premier tournaments try to prevent it, the scene is still top-heavy, and in regions where sponsorship dollars generate less value, there is little money other than prizes.
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Is this when the community realizes that Solo got off way too fucking easy? Tournaments should grow balls and re-ban him, because it's a joke that he got off by just being a westerner, saying sorry, and getting a 1 month probation.
If the SEA teams are getting bans, the entire scene needs to turn the fuck around and do it to Solo as well. Having a standard really means nothing when it's as flexible as "oh well he's a good player and apologized!" I am still #1 savior fan, he was a god, but still deserved the ban.
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On October 21 2014 07:17 lolnoty wrote:
Is this when the community realizes that Solo got off way too fucking easy? Tournaments should grow balls and re-ban him, because it's a joke that he got off by just being a westerner, saying sorry, and getting a 1 month probation.
If the SEA teams are getting bans, the entire scene needs to turn the fuck around and do it to Solo as well. Having a standard really means nothing when it's as flexible as "oh well he's a good player and apologized!" I am still #1 savior fan, he was a god, but still deserved the ban.
I can get behind this.
So google tells me that the 2500 he was making a month converted into us currency is ~$764. This is less than $5 an hour if he is putting 40 hours a week into it (before taxes). I realize that the exchange doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of cost of living over there so could someone put it into context for me? Maybe how much rent is or food/week for an average person?
Note: Not making excuses, just curious.
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On October 21 2014 07:25 giftdgecko wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 07:17 lolnoty wrote:
Is this when the community realizes that Solo got off way too fucking easy? Tournaments should grow balls and re-ban him, because it's a joke that he got off by just being a westerner, saying sorry, and getting a 1 month probation.
If the SEA teams are getting bans, the entire scene needs to turn the fuck around and do it to Solo as well. Having a standard really means nothing when it's as flexible as "oh well he's a good player and apologized!" I am still #1 savior fan, he was a god, but still deserved the ban. I can get behind this. So google tells me that the 2500 he was making a month converted into us currency is ~$764. This is less than $5 an hour if he is putting 40 hours a week into it (before taxes). I realize that the exchange doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of cost of living over there so could someone put it into context for me? Maybe how much rent is or food/week for an average person? Note: Not making excuses, just curious.
It's considered mid-average tier 2 salary for a fresh degree graduate. Not that bad actually.
I'm a lawyer-in-training from a top 5 UK uni, and I only make marginally more than them (in fact, less as long as they pull in more than 1k a month in winnings).
A lot of high school and diploma holders make do making only RM1500 a month.
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Meanwhile Solo never actually got punished for creating the term 322
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On October 20 2014 22:53 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 22:26 Heyoka wrote:
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
If you drop the idealistic thinking the actual damage done is fairly minimal. Match fixing occurs in mainstream sports on a much larger scale and those sports are doing pretty well sponsor-wise. Yes, some sponsors may stop supporting the offending team or individual, but on the whole they don't care about the integrity of the scene, all they care about is exposure and will continue investing in the sport as long as it is popular enough. Everyone makes mistakes, and refusing to give people second chances is some medieval concept of justice to me. Give them a warning, disqualify them for a year, that will be deterrent enough. A year away from the pro scene is a pretty serious punishment for an aspiring player. If they try do that again, then you can start talking about lifetime bans.
Thank you, everyone needs to relax and think clearly. I don't get why people are hell-bent on causing as much destruction as possible by heavy handed punishments that leave 0 room for redemption. Give them some kind of probation from games and have them do some community service or some shit and let them learn from the mistake and become better individuals because of it. Have them campaign against matchfixing in Dota 2 for a year if you really want to get specific, that adds to the cause and forces them to acknowledge what they did was wrong. What more do you want?
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Sounds like he is genuinely sorry that he got caught.
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On October 21 2014 09:58 ControlMonkey wrote:
Sounds like he is genuinely sorry that he got caught.
Yup Solo, Saviour,and all the rest were very sorry that they got caught as well
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retroactive ban is stupid
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On October 21 2014 09:09 AciD_DotA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 22:53 Random() wrote:On October 20 2014 22:26 Heyoka wrote:
This is one situation where I'm okay with the punishment being a lifetime ban. Of all the things a player can do to harm himself/his team/his community this is the one that can have very serious longterm ramifications, this is the sort of thing that will make sponsors decline to look into the scene and invest in the sorts of ways that improve conditions for everyone. We joke about hurting/helping esports a lot but this is something that can legitimately destroy the credibility and sustainability of gamers looking to be professionals. Extreme punishment is both fitting and hopefully a deterrent for people who get into the same situation.
If you drop the idealistic thinking the actual damage done is fairly minimal. Match fixing occurs in mainstream sports on a much larger scale and those sports are doing pretty well sponsor-wise. Yes, some sponsors may stop supporting the offending team or individual, but on the whole they don't care about the integrity of the scene, all they care about is exposure and will continue investing in the sport as long as it is popular enough. Everyone makes mistakes, and refusing to give people second chances is some medieval concept of justice to me. Give them a warning, disqualify them for a year, that will be deterrent enough. A year away from the pro scene is a pretty serious punishment for an aspiring player. If they try do that again, then you can start talking about lifetime bans. Thank you, everyone needs to relax and think clearly. I don't get why people are hell-bent on causing as much destruction as possible by heavy handed punishments that leave 0 room for redemption. Give them some kind of probation from games and have them do some community service or some shit and let them learn from the mistake and become better individuals because of it. Have them campaign against matchfixing in Dota 2 for a year if you really want to get specific, that adds to the cause and forces them to acknowledge what they did was wrong. What more do you want?
a lot of the newer posters don't realize the connotations of being a TL affiliated forum. I wasn't active in the Brood War days of TL (I first started visiting the site when SC2 beta arrived) but I remember the hubbub with Savior. You have to understand that for a lot of the old guard, especially those that remember the glory days of BW, they associate match fixing with the death of BW. Indeed, a lot of Koreans and those within the scene at the time have commented on how Savior and that whole fiasco essentially destroyed the public's trust and interest in the game especially among the casual fanbase in Korea.
tl;dr matchfixing is going to be an extremely touchy subject on a Liquid forum. For good reason.
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savior was a ringleader. the mastermind. the head honcho. the don.
Furthermore he was a superstar. top 10 salary pro. He was called a god while 'Nada' was mere mortal before him. And he DID destroy the public trust in esports.
ddz was more personal i reckon. though I would seriously investigate the matchfixer connection.
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They may be sorry they got caught, that doesn't mean they're sorry that they match-fixed.
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A lot of people seem to think they did this because they weren't making enough money. If it was all about the money, there are much better ways to get it.
Don't try to rationalize their decision when their decision was irrational. It won't make sense.
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On October 20 2014 20:40 Heyoka wrote:
As an aside it's fairly disgusting to me to see it referred to as "322" in these official statements, given that phrase has essentially been used exclusively as a twitch meme for the last two years. Though I understand it is convenient shorthand here for what happened, it's taking something that could seriously hurt the future of Dota and treating it like a joke.
Just a sign that Esports isn't anywhere near the professionalism we all are used to from many other things.
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There is occurances of matchfixing or similar in all known sports there is no clear cut answer on how to deal with it. The best bet so far is to increase regulations and give harsh dissuading punishments.There has been 2 cases in as many years in dota2, Makes you wonder how much is slipping by undetected.
I have no insight whatsoever in the money betting systems in place. I can only assume that they are growing side by side with the betting of everything else in dota. I really dont see that they would even benefit on trying to find cheats as they are part of their profit margin. Some kind of objective third party will sooner or later be needed to research and investigate. Before things of this nature has gone to far.
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On October 21 2014 12:06 danl9rm wrote:
A lot of people seem to think they did this because they weren't making enough money. If it was all about the money, there are much better ways to get it.
Don't try to rationalize their decision when their decision was irrational. It won't make sense.
Well technically they keep saying (girlfriend's statements, other statements) that it was because of money. I rather pin it on poor financial or economic situations than outright say, "these people are evil people and would do it again even if they had it all". But maybe I'm just naive.
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zzz
User was warned for this post
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They should have thought about the consequences before doing it. I bet they assumed they probably won't get caught.
Now confessing was their only good option. Hard to forgive something like this though.
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It has a good side. People talk about solo again. Never forget!
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On October 21 2014 08:54 Jaaaaasper wrote:
Meanwhile Solo never actually got punished for creating the term 322
The problem with all the punishment shouts is that there is no one organziation that overlooks the punishment and as we could see in the case of Solo, the punishment was full of loopholes that way.
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Magic Woods9326 Posts
On October 21 2014 10:04 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 09:58 ControlMonkey wrote:
Sounds like he is genuinely sorry that he got caught. Yup Solo, Saviour,and all the rest were very sorry that they got caught as well
Savior never confessed nor apologized.
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Matchfixing happens in football as well. It probably happens in any sport involved in betting and betting is HUGE in Europe, as well the rest of the world I'd assume.
The difference is it's a criminal offense and you can go to prison if you're caught. So yeah this is a very serious problem.
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On October 21 2014 18:12 Vadrigar wrote:
Matchfixing happens in football as well. It probably happens in any sport involved in betting and betting is HUGE in Europe, as well the rest of the world I'd assume.
The difference is it's a criminal offense and you can go to prison if you're caught. So yeah this is a very serious problem.
In fact match fixing in European football comes from SEA in most cases I've heard of.
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On October 21 2014 23:14 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 18:12 Vadrigar wrote:
Matchfixing happens in football as well. It probably happens in any sport involved in betting and betting is HUGE in Europe, as well the rest of the world I'd assume.
The difference is it's a criminal offense and you can go to prison if you're caught. So yeah this is a very serious problem. In fact match fixing in European football comes from SEA in most cases I've heard of.
East Asia and SEA are the biggest gambling centers/populations in the world
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Pretty sad that this had to happen, ddz was pretty damn amazing in TI4, and with SEA dota on the rise, this is the last thing that it needed
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I'm against lifetime bans because people make mistakes and deserve a 2nd chance.
Also, we never saw Savior play again and that is such a sad waste of talent.
But Solo got away way too easy. Something like a 1 or 2 year ban for matchfixing sounds fair.
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Russian Federation251 Posts
The biggest thing on that new thread is the existence of fake FB network by Jaren. Holy Jesus, this is so twisted...
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What's pathetic is Jaren is still trying to defend himself.
I honestly hope at this point Valve steps in and just bans his ass from DotA 2 and end this.
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this just gets more and more juicy...
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Canada2068 Posts
honestly, that article doesn't present anything new. all it does is try to make jaren out to be the bad guy even though he seems to have found out about the matchfixing at the same time as everyone else. it's just a ruse to deflect blame away from ddz+lance who were the ones to actually commit the crime.
p.s. jaren is using fake iG facebook page for ad moneys (how is this relevant for anything besides character assassination?)
p.p.s. jaren hates puppies
it's amazing how the article's spin has managed to convince r/dota2 csheeple
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On October 22 2014 05:55 CountChocula wrote:honestly, that article doesn't present anything new. all it does is try to make jaren out to be the bad guy even though he seems to have found out about the matchfixing along with everyone else, and deflect blame away from ddz+lance who were the ones to actually commit the crime. p.s. jaren is using fake iG facebook page for ad moneys (how is this relevant for anything besides character assassination?) p.p.s. jaren hates puppies it's amazing how the article's spin has managed to convince r/dota2 csheeple
This x 1000. I posted literally the same thing on reddit, but it doesnt matter, the pitchforks are out in full force. But then again, reddit is not known for being the most intelligent site on the internet.
Its always the case that managers/organizers/casters take a lot more flak than the actual players, even if they commit lesser crimes. I remember the way the SC2 community castrated -Orb- for using "nigger" as an epithet in a random ladder game and pretty much destroyed his streaming/casting career. While much more famous players like IdrA routinely got free passes and were worshipped, while being pretty much the most abusive person in the SC2 community until Alex Garfield finally had enough.
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Apologies mean shit when you tried to cover it up first.
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On October 22 2014 06:07 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 05:55 CountChocula wrote:honestly, that article doesn't present anything new. all it does is try to make jaren out to be the bad guy even though he seems to have found out about the matchfixing along with everyone else, and deflect blame away from ddz+lance who were the ones to actually commit the crime. p.s. jaren is using fake iG facebook page for ad moneys (how is this relevant for anything besides character assassination?) p.p.s. jaren hates puppies it's amazing how the article's spin has managed to convince r/dota2 csheeple This x 1000. I posted literally the same thing on reddit, but it doesnt matter, the pitchforks are out in full force. But then again, reddit is not known for being the most intelligent site on the internet. Its always the case that managers/organizers/casters take a lot more flak than the actual players, even if they commit lesser crimes. I remember the way the SC2 community castrated -Orb- for using "nigger" as an epithet in a random ladder game and pretty much destroyed his streaming/casting career. While much more famous players like IdrA routinely got free passes and were worshipped, while being pretty much the most abusive person in the SC2 community until Alex Garfield finally had enough.
Yup. Gotta agree with this statement. While Jaren seemed like a dick and probably not the best character, DDZ, Lance and the rest of Arrow were the ones to actually commit the crime. Hope they are actually punished here.
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On October 21 2014 17:55 Epoxide wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 10:04 Jaaaaasper wrote:On October 21 2014 09:58 ControlMonkey wrote:
Sounds like he is genuinely sorry that he got caught. Yup Solo, Saviour,and all the rest were very sorry that they got caught as well Savior never confessed nor apologized.
Savior never confessed to fixing his own games, and as far as memory serves me, that part was never proven either.
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Sanya12364 Posts
I'm not sure now Jaren is involved but I'm pretty sure how DDZ and Lance are involved.
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I really hate these sort of occurrences. Talk about shooting oneself in the foot. Oh so you may a chunk of change, now guess what, you have tarnished the name and sponsors will be even less likely to invest money. It is the same mentality that I see with those that hack video games. You play a game only to ruin the game itself.
What I often find most deplorable is their attempt to apologize. More often than not (in my opinion), they are not apologizing for what they did. They are apologizing that they were caught. With that said, I do not think there should be lifetime bans. Maybe cater it toward the crime, so a more financial sort of punishment. For example, if they got items, have them given to some mediator or the tournament and if not willing to do that, they are banned.
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So if Arrow wanted to matchfix on their own accord, how did the Vallejos guy get tipped off to make the large bets?
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It baffles me how these professional teams use Reddit as their source of communication, specially with this caliber of match-fixing scandal.
I agree with what has been said here, with what Oling posted, suddenly all Reddit aims their hate at Jaren, demonizing him as the worst scum on the whole scene...
Yeah, he might be as 'insert negative connotation here' as they say, doing this and that, but let's not forget what this scandal was about in the first place.
Why not just focus on the match fixing itself? Is this going to turn into another Solo case?
It might be the perfect opportunity to unveil Jaren's shadiness or just some cheap groin attack... Whatever it is, it just deviates the attention from the real culprits.
Let's be honest, this Jaren guy, who is supposedly known as an organizer of small SEA tournaments and now team manager, has no reason to be the one behind the match fixing itself.
Why would he even risk his reputation in something so petty for a hundred of bucks?
I think with his stupidity he just tried to cover/salvage his team and player's reputation in the spur of the moment (knowing SEA struggles with getting sponsors).
Covering lies with more lies and fabricating fake evidence, while these actions are grave, can they be considered as grave or even more than the action of match-fixing?
With the recent news we now know that the whole roster plus their girlfriends were involved in the match-fixing.
Be it naivety or not, let's solve what is important first and then focus later on the 'shadiness' part...
Shadiness has always been present, some are shrugged off, some are forgotten or become acceptable... There's just so much the community won't ever know, only known to those close within the community.
I hope we hear word from Valve this time... At least be a little be more involved with the scene as Riot is with LoL.
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On October 22 2014 12:46 Namunelbo wrote:
I hope we hear word from Valve this time... At least be a little be more involved with the scene as Riot is with LoL.
Why exactly?
As far as I know, Valve doesn't want to have to be part of it because they want the scene to grow organically, and not because they threw a bunch of money at it. Likely thinking that if it does grow organically, it has a much better of actually surviving for any length of time, and actually become something bigger than "some tournament the company puts on for it's own game"
Yeah it might not be pretty, but it's working itself out. The scene will hopefully grow and learn from this so it can become stronger.
It seems to me that this is exactly how Valve wants things?
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The most Valve might do is bad them from playing in the international, but as they haven't done that to solo and the rest of that roxxis squad yet, tis a safe bet they wont.
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On October 21 2014 03:10 ArchDC wrote:
He practically speaks no English
That's surprising, seeing English is a compulsary subject in their schools. And not just a couple semesters of ESL, it's elementary through high school. Passing English is required for graduation along with the standardized O-level equivalent test.
Aurally not fluent perhaps, but basic reading and writing comprehension should not be a problem.
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From the latest Reddit post, it seems Jared is hated in SEA scene, this match fixing scandal is like a golden chance for the others to bring him down.
I also don't see the players actually feel remorse for their actions or at least realize the seriousness of this issue, but rather they are trying to put the blame on others.
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On October 22 2014 15:26 gigalib wrote:
From the latest Reddit post, it seems Jared is hated in SEA scene, this match fixing scandal is like a golden chance for the others to bring him down.
I also don't see the players actually feel remorse for their actions or at least realize the seriousness of this issue, but rather they are trying to put the blame on others.
That's not exactly fair when their girlfriends and manager are doing all the talking. ddz's one and only contribution (the text in Chinese) is fine for now.
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On October 22 2014 14:55 Elurie wrote:That's surprising, seeing English is a compulsary subject in their schools. And not just a couple semesters of ESL, it's elementary through high school. Passing English is required for graduation along with the standardized O-level equivalent test. Aurally not fluent perhaps, but basic reading and writing comprehension should not be a problem.
It's possible. The problem with Malaysia's education system is that you can't get held back no matter how badly you do. You can drift up to our version of the O-levels and flunk out there. Passing English and Malay is a requirement for passing the exam but if you fail then... well... you fail.
Alternatively, there is the Chinese education system that teaches everything in Chinese and have their own exam system. They are obligated to take the government exams but they don't really care (just spend the mandatory 45 minutes and leave the hall). The qualification they get from these schools is not universally recognized within Malaysia for further education (it is one of the contentious social issues in the country). I've personally met some of these students and some of them are really smart, it's just that they have MAJOR problems expressing themselves in the English due to the lack of emphasis on it.
Edit: Also, poor English fluency among local graduates is a major contributing factor to graduate unemployment in the country.
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I met this guy from a private school who took mandatory french from grades k-12 because Maines got a bunch of franco american heritage, and his French was worse than my 4 years of Spanish (which i haven't used for 2 years and have forgotten most of) because he just studied for exams and then never used it. I bet that can happen just as easily in other countries.
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On October 22 2014 08:52 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 06:07 Piledriver wrote:On October 22 2014 05:55 CountChocula wrote:honestly, that article doesn't present anything new. all it does is try to make jaren out to be the bad guy even though he seems to have found out about the matchfixing along with everyone else, and deflect blame away from ddz+lance who were the ones to actually commit the crime. p.s. jaren is using fake iG facebook page for ad moneys (how is this relevant for anything besides character assassination?) p.p.s. jaren hates puppies it's amazing how the article's spin has managed to convince r/dota2 csheeple This x 1000. I posted literally the same thing on reddit, but it doesnt matter, the pitchforks are out in full force. But then again, reddit is not known for being the most intelligent site on the internet. Its always the case that managers/organizers/casters take a lot more flak than the actual players, even if they commit lesser crimes. I remember the way the SC2 community castrated -Orb- for using "nigger" as an epithet in a random ladder game and pretty much destroyed his streaming/casting career. While much more famous players like IdrA routinely got free passes and were worshipped, while being pretty much the most abusive person in the SC2 community until Alex Garfield finally had enough. Yup. Gotta agree with this statement. While Jaren seemed like a dick and probably not the best character, DDZ, Lance and the rest of Arrow were the ones to actually commit the crime. Hope they are actually punished here.
I'm not sure how anyone is reading that that article says its Jaren's fault.
From reading it myself I got the following impressions
- The whole team was involved in matchfixing. As well as the two girlfriends.
- Some of them got caught and freaked out, going to Jaren.
- Jaren then tried to work out what was going on and limit the damage to the team itself.
- As the scale of it became apparent (i.e. when he realised it was EVERYONE) he went off the deep end and started colluding to fake evidence to try cover it all up to try to save the team rather than having to fire everyone over it. This is where he crosses the line into being in the wrong as well, but the matchfixing itself wasn't his fault.
- Jaren is pretty shady and dishonest all around and has a big hand in manipulating the SEA scene. So he isn't exactly a squeaky clean guy himself. Which is interesting and disturbing, but doesn't mean he was responsible for the matchfixing. To me this came across as a dam being burst with a "well if I'm going to point out what he's done in this incident I might as well point out ALL the dodgy things he's doing" kind of way.
So yeah...I'm not sure where people are getting the "blame Jaren, its his fault" thing from.
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On October 21 2014 07:17 lolnoty wrote:
Is this when the community realizes that Solo got off way too fucking easy? Tournaments should grow balls and re-ban him, because it's a joke that he got off by just being a westerner, saying sorry, and getting a 1 month probation.
If the SEA teams are getting bans, the entire scene needs to turn the fuck around and do it to Solo as well. Having a standard really means nothing when it's as flexible as "oh well he's a good player and apologized!" I am still #1 savior fan, he was a god, but still deserved the ban.
This is so true. A lot of people are saying - rightfully so - that match fixing is hurting E-sports. But if some people doing so are just "free" after a ridiculously short time, as a sponsor, I would not put any trust in any organisation that let this happen.
This is why Valve should be dealing with this kind of stuff IMO, because with the number of organisations running tournaments, there is no way every player involved in this kind of stuff will get the same (too harsh, or not/ deserved, or not) punishment.
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I'm astonished by how incredibly judgemental all of the comments on this situation have been.
Give these guys a break, they're young, poor and just as immature as you were at their age. They've made a mistake, acted retarded about it and won't get away with it without being severely punished. No reason to ban them for life or take away their only and very limited source of income.
Match-fixing wouldn't happen if the whole dota ecosystem had less of a senseless distribution of wealth. It is, as always, more about the big picture than about the people.
Dire situations make for desperate actions and I'm not convinced that, had the roles been reversed, you mega-righteous westerners would have acted any differently.
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On October 24 2014 09:36 CptMarvel wrote:
I'm astonished by how incredibly judgemental all of the comments on this situation have been.
Give these guys a break, they're young, poor and just as immature as you were at their age. They've made a mistake, acted retarded about it and won't get away with it without being severely punished. No reason to ban them for life or take away their only and very limited source of income.
Match-fixing wouldn't happen if the whole dota ecosystem had less of a senseless distribution of wealth. It is, as always, more about the big picture than about the people.
Dire situations make for desperate actions and I'm not convinced that, had the roles been reversed, you mega-righteous westerners would have acted any differently.
If I wasn't comfortable with my level of income from pro gaming I would have gotten a job of any kind, because pro gaming isn't something you should go into for the money.
Wait did you really just call for dota socialism?
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On October 24 2014 10:56 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 09:36 CptMarvel wrote:
I'm astonished by how incredibly judgemental all of the comments on this situation have been.
Give these guys a break, they're young, poor and just as immature as you were at their age. They've made a mistake, acted retarded about it and won't get away with it without being severely punished. No reason to ban them for life or take away their only and very limited source of income.
Match-fixing wouldn't happen if the whole dota ecosystem had less of a senseless distribution of wealth. It is, as always, more about the big picture than about the people.
Dire situations make for desperate actions and I'm not convinced that, had the roles been reversed, you mega-righteous westerners would have acted any differently. If I wasn't comfortable with my level of income from pro gaming I would have gotten a job of any kind, because pro gaming isn't something you should go into for the money. Wait did you really just call for dota socialism?
Haha, funny that when you talk about 'distribution of wealth' to an american he auto goes all cold-war-bullshit on you.
I mean people playing the same game and doing the same job shouldn't be paid so differently accross the planet.
That being said, I'm FRENCH and am a TEACHER in CHINA. Life obviously pushes me to the left-wing.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On October 24 2014 17:47 CptMarvel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 10:56 Jaaaaasper wrote:On October 24 2014 09:36 CptMarvel wrote:
I'm astonished by how incredibly judgemental all of the comments on this situation have been.
Give these guys a break, they're young, poor and just as immature as you were at their age. They've made a mistake, acted retarded about it and won't get away with it without being severely punished. No reason to ban them for life or take away their only and very limited source of income.
Match-fixing wouldn't happen if the whole dota ecosystem had less of a senseless distribution of wealth. It is, as always, more about the big picture than about the people.
Dire situations make for desperate actions and I'm not convinced that, had the roles been reversed, you mega-righteous westerners would have acted any differently. If I wasn't comfortable with my level of income from pro gaming I would have gotten a job of any kind, because pro gaming isn't something you should go into for the money. Wait did you really just call for dota socialism? Haha, funny that when you talk about 'distribution of wealth' to an american he auto goes all cold-war-bullshit on you. I mean people playing the same game and doing the same job shouldn't be paid so differently accross the planet. That being said, I'm FRENCH and am a TEACHER in CHINA. Life obviously pushes me to the left-wing.
By the sounds of it, yes. I guess you think goods should cost the same across the planet as well, right?
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I explained myself wrong. I meant that the quality of life should be comparable for every salary-earning progamer on the planet. Taking local prices into account is obvious.
Anyway get off these poor lads, I'm sure they're feeling bad enough already.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
What is even going on in this thread?
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On October 24 2014 22:57 CptMarvel wrote:
I explained myself wrong. I meant that the quality of life should be comparable for every salary-earning progamer on the planet. Taking local prices into account is obvious.
Anyway get off these poor lads, I'm sure they're feeling bad enough already.
The quality of life can vary widely from country to country doing the same job.
This isn't some mysterious magical wonder unique to esports.
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On October 24 2014 23:14 cecek wrote:
What is even going on in this thread?
This is a hot button issue for broodwar fans as the match fixing scandal did more damage to brood war than sctwo ever could, and they don't want the same to happen to dota, And then someone came in and either went full foreigner or just phrased his point really poorly which made the last few posts interesting.
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EPT
