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On January 18 2009 17:02 Sentenal wrote:
How far away bases from each other really depends on map. Like with Andromeda, they are pretty far apart, but with something like Bluestorm, they are close. But Forge FE is still standard on both maps. It has more to do with the natural choke being easier to wall off, than how far the rush distances are.
agreed especially like destination and tau cross the entrance into natural is ridiculously small
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sadly LAN latency hasn't affected reaver scarabs getting stuck at random times and doing no damage >_<
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i like how reavers too sometimes you can right click on a target with full scarabs made and they will start walking to it instead of shooting >_< and the only way to unbug it is to spam stop on them.... you would think blizzard could make a patch that fixes it or something....
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On January 18 2009 17:04 JoeSaddles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2009 16:54 Luddite wrote:
Saddles, when you used to play there was no LAN latency for online play, right? How do you think that has affected the game? I know that I personally started to appreciate the game a lot more after I started playing on ICCUP, since there was no one nearby that I could LAN with. I honestly haven't noticed a huge difference with LAN latency it just feels like a lag free game to me. but then again i play mostly protoss which is the easiest race to micro, I haven't checked yet if it makes a big difference with zerg and T
haha, fair enough. as a zerg player, it's like "woah... suddenly mutas are useful!"
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On January 18 2009 16:01 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2009 15:28 JoeSaddles wrote:On January 18 2009 15:27 CapO wrote:On January 18 2009 15:04 JoeSaddles wrote:On January 18 2009 14:54 -orb- wrote:
Lol a clinic on how to play PvZ?
Dude you really shouldn't be giving clinics on how to play PvZ 3 days after telling everyone FE was stupid and impossible to pull off I never said anything close to that.. I said if zerg knows 100% chance it's coming he has a very good chance to beat it.. which is true. In the finals of a recent tourney the pro P FE'd, the pro Z 6 pooled cuz he knew it was coming, and crippled him enough to WIN the game. that's all i said was possible.... please dont turn the thread into a flame fest anyway, im just here to post reps and talk strategy about brood war, not argue. okay, here's me talking about brood war strategy. pvz FE build has become a standard opener. you're basically saying that the korean progamers are doing it wrong. most zerg players expect the FE build, but no way does he have a good chance to beat it. what you said is NOT true. i think you're mistaken for 13/14 nexus. please, gain some more knowledge before you make such a statement. have the protoss vs zerg overall statistics really gone up that much since FE??? whats the win rate for protoss vs zerg overall in pro league?? I don't know what the current win rate is in proleauge, but I do know in recent history, Zergs have been getting demolished, and Protoss has been doing very well. Like the last MSL, the top 4 players were all Protoss. There was only 1 Zerg in the top 8 of the last OSL, and all of the Zergs got knocked out of GOM in Ro16. But when the Forge FE became standard PvZ, people went from calling PvZ imba/impossible, to calling Protoss the easy race.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=85901
That thread gives some statistics about what's been going on in proleague recently for Saddles. While you could certainly say zergs were not doing well in individual leagues, proleague PvZ was still 61-46 in favor of the zergs at the end of round 2. Colosseum 2 was the only map where the protoss actually had the advantage.
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On January 18 2009 17:14 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2009 16:01 Sentenal wrote:On January 18 2009 15:28 JoeSaddles wrote:On January 18 2009 15:27 CapO wrote:On January 18 2009 15:04 JoeSaddles wrote:On January 18 2009 14:54 -orb- wrote:
Lol a clinic on how to play PvZ?
Dude you really shouldn't be giving clinics on how to play PvZ 3 days after telling everyone FE was stupid and impossible to pull off I never said anything close to that.. I said if zerg knows 100% chance it's coming he has a very good chance to beat it.. which is true. In the finals of a recent tourney the pro P FE'd, the pro Z 6 pooled cuz he knew it was coming, and crippled him enough to WIN the game. that's all i said was possible.... please dont turn the thread into a flame fest anyway, im just here to post reps and talk strategy about brood war, not argue. okay, here's me talking about brood war strategy. pvz FE build has become a standard opener. you're basically saying that the korean progamers are doing it wrong. most zerg players expect the FE build, but no way does he have a good chance to beat it. what you said is NOT true. i think you're mistaken for 13/14 nexus. please, gain some more knowledge before you make such a statement. have the protoss vs zerg overall statistics really gone up that much since FE??? whats the win rate for protoss vs zerg overall in pro league?? I don't know what the current win rate is in proleauge, but I do know in recent history, Zergs have been getting demolished, and Protoss has been doing very well. Like the last MSL, the top 4 players were all Protoss. There was only 1 Zerg in the top 8 of the last OSL, and all of the Zergs got knocked out of GOM in Ro16. But when the Forge FE became standard PvZ, people went from calling PvZ imba/impossible, to calling Protoss the easy race. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=85901That thread gives some statistics about what's been going on in proleague recently for Saddles. While you could certainly say zergs were not doing well in individual leagues, proleague PvZ was still 61-46 in favor of the zergs at the end of round 2. Colosseum 2 was the only map where the protoss actually had the advantage.
that sounds to me like the same type of winrate before everyone was even doing fast expand.... perhaps the maps are just imbalanced or something?>
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if toss is still losing most of the time in PvZ thats not a good sign for toss .... blech ..
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On January 18 2009 17:13 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2009 17:04 JoeSaddles wrote:On January 18 2009 16:54 Luddite wrote:
Saddles, when you used to play there was no LAN latency for online play, right? How do you think that has affected the game? I know that I personally started to appreciate the game a lot more after I started playing on ICCUP, since there was no one nearby that I could LAN with. I honestly haven't noticed a huge difference with LAN latency it just feels like a lag free game to me. but then again i play mostly protoss which is the easiest race to micro, I haven't checked yet if it makes a big difference with zerg and T haha, fair enough. as a zerg player, it's like "woah... suddenly mutas are useful!"
aye for sure I did notice in my zerg games that mutas were responding a tiny bit faster and turning a tiny bit faster
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hahaha maybe it's cause you haven't experienced regular b.net latency in a while... the difference is very much noticeable, with any race
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On January 18 2009 17:26 JoeSaddles wrote:
if toss is still losing most of the time in PvZ thats not a good sign for toss .... blech ..
...no toss is not losing most of the time. That's all there is to say.
Though I don't get stuff like this
"The PvZ against the 62-20 B zerg."
http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/vsofra.html
Dude is just barely c+
Also you're showing us replays of purely rush builds against players that have little to no idea how to deal with them properly. Lets see a macro game!
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On January 18 2009 17:26 JoeSaddles wrote:
if toss is still losing most of the time in PvZ thats not a good sign for toss .... blech ..
Well like I said in one of my previous post, Zergs are getting raped in individual leagues. Proleague results are bit skewed IMO because there are alot of crappy Protosses who get sent it out, plus Harmony and Andromeda both are kinda bad PvZ.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 18 2009 16:15 JoeSaddles wrote:
and yah i agree with u guys completely that FE is the new best build for most maps. nowadays the starting spots are farther on most maps than they used to be... remember the days of p2h luna LT etc? nowadays the spots are farther, so FE is obviously going to work better.
I was wrong when I made that statement 4 days ago, didn't realize how big FE has become, it is now going to be the staple of my PvZ lol =p It's 100% the maps fault. FE has always been the best build to use in PvZ, that's why Protoss loved to play it when they could (hi Guillotine). However your typical standard map did not allow you to play a FE unlike today. People should remember that FE play was 100% standard for pretty much the last half of 2005 - a year and a half before Bisu. Maps were designed from about then on to be easily expandable (for a glance at the map allowing FE just look at Forte, 815, RH (to some extent), R-Point (first pvt 14nex btw), Cultivation Period, Tau Cross etc). In fact the best example of the evolution of map making to favor FE is simply looking at Fantasy and comparing it to the original versions.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/167_Fantasy%20II.jpg)
Note the layouts of the natural (particularly bottom left and top left)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/63_Sin%20Gaema%20Gowon.jpg)
Look at the bottom left base here - impossible to fast expand
Look at the top left base here, significantly harder to FE here
Your flaw was the assumption that map making trends had stayed the same in your absence; which they did not. Under the old style of maps your claims were perfectly valid, under the new style i think you know the answer 
(This post isn't just directed at saddles, its more directly towards the ignorant masses who still beleive bisu invented the FE)
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On January 18 2009 16:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2009 16:00 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 18 2009 14:32 JoeSaddles wrote:
modern mutalisk micro to me is as strong as GOOD zergs used to do it back in the day.
It just seems that now even the average and above average zergs are microing their mutas very well, as before it was only the best zergs who were microing them that well. This is also just wrong, muta micro has improved leaps and bounds since 2004 because I don't think grouping with overlord or larvae was even invented then. It's vastly, vastly different for TvZ ever since mutas became really ridiculous around 2007ish. Before then, only July was doing it, after, just about everyone can. I don't know if you play TvZ but saying modern micro is as strong as good zergs used to do back in 2004 is nuts, just watch the VODs, its totally different. He said that the muta micro of average zergs nowadays is the same as the GOOD zergs from before. I don't see how you interpreted what you think he said.
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thats vastly underestimating the improvement. july could not do what an average korean zerg can do today, and july was leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else back then. grouping tricks + hold and patrol micro make a massive difference. he just doesnt see it because hes playing mostly D ranks.
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Huge respect for you Saddles for coming back and dropping the "I own them all attitude".
Good luck and thanks for the replays.
Even if your macro isn't really good for nowadays standarts i like how you play
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51700 Posts
Wait, people think Bisu invented FE?
Wow.....
+ Show Spoiler +I am going to go jump off a cliff now
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tbh theres a huge difference between lat and no lat latency
even your commands to mine minerals for the workers during the first minute are so much slower
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Atleast saddles isnt being a douche anymore. Goodwork man keep it up :thumbs
(No im not being srcastic)
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Why are you still trying to teach us?
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Norway28909 Posts
muta micro from an average b- korean today is actually better than the best mutamicroer in the entire world of 2004. muta micro from the best players in the world today is on a completely different level than anything you saw back then..
also plexa, legacy of char is a bad example. people fast expanded there even in 2002. most protoss players hated it and regarded it as impossible for pvz, but say, nazgul, (and by extention me, as I played lots with him) liked it and always went fast exp - sair reaver, 7 years ago. )
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/112_WCG_Neo%20Legacy%20of%20Char.jpg)
