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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
Does Russia tried to attack Syria like USA did with Iraq etc? Russian weapons are killing innocent Syrian civilians daily, Russia has delivered hundreds of millions of dollars (at least) worth of weapons and ammunition and other supplies to the Syrian government and this is not before the civil war, this is during its entire duration up to and including today, so again, does Russia share a border with Syria? | ||
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PaleMan
Russian Federation1953 Posts
On February 28 2014 04:12 DeepElemBlues wrote: Ooh look they made Grozny look all pretty, that makes it okay. I'll have to remember that. You can grind a city down to its bones in contravention of just about all the laws of war on the books, but if you rebuild it, it's fine! Russian weapons are killing innocent Syrian civilians daily, Russia has delivered hundreds of millions of dollars (at least) worth of weapons and ammunition and other supplies to the Syrian government and this is not before the civil war, this is during its entire duration up to and including today, so again, does Russia share a border with Syria? so did Russia launch direct attack to Syria like USA did in Iraq twice, Aphganistan etc? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On February 28 2014 04:21 nunez wrote: it's comical how hollow you are deb. 'take it through the un' would have resulted in half a page of you losing your mind if the us was the potential agressor. Doesn't really matter though, his point is correct, as it would be if someone made it against the US, if he would like it then or not doesn't really matter. Makes him a hypocrite, but not wrong. Does not mean i agree 100% with him, just on that point he's right, regardless of his "background". | ||
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AleXoundOS
Georgia457 Posts
On February 28 2014 02:53 farvacola wrote: Which video out of these is faulty do you think? + Show Spoiler +relying on videos with no certifiable context The only could be the slaughter of Volyn governor video and Сашко Білий with AK47, because you have no guarantee that it's really them. On February 28 2014 02:53 farvacola wrote: ...practically every poster in this thread who suggests that the protestors are categorically fascist... By immediately suggesting that one can know the true identity of thousands of protestors based on the loud and terrible actions of a few... Nope. There are thousands of peaceful non-nationalist people who are against Yanukovich regime as me. Maybe you think that peaceful people will support revolution at the cost of throwing molotov coctails and killing policemen, destroying monuments and letting neo-fascists to take control. If so, then this opinion can exist, but it's definitely a minority of ukranian people. But it happened so that control is taken by armed people, those who are well organized (by Right Sector) and ready to kill for the sake of their goals. And as for Right Sector activists they have a really big force, that could break through well-trained Berkut police many times. On February 28 2014 02:53 farvacola wrote: None of that stands up unless you already believe that practically everything from the West is made-up and that everything from the East is God-given truth. No, even the reverse. In many areas west media covers events much better. But unless you know russian language you cannot judge both sides of conflict. Similarly I won't judge events happening between sides which language I don't know. That's why I point out to videos that are difficult to forge and to historical reference, in order not to found statements based on "all russian are evil". | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On February 28 2014 04:33 AleXoundOS wrote: Which video out of these is faulty do you think? + Show Spoiler + The only could be the slaughter of Volyn governor video and Сашко Білий with AK47, because you have no guarantee that it's really them. Nope. There are thousands of peaceful non-nationalist people who are against Yanukovich regime as me. Maybe you think that peaceful people will support revolution at the cost of throwing molotov coctails and killing policemen, destroying monuments and letting neo-fascists to take control. If so, then this opinion can exist, but it's definitely a minority of ukranian people. But it happened so that control is taken by armed people, those who are well organized (by Right Sector) and ready to kill for the sake of their goals. And as for Right Sector activists they have a really big force, that could break through well-trained Berkut police many times. No, even the reverse. In many areas west media covers events much better. But unless you know russian language you cannot judge both sides of conflict. Similarly I won't judge events happening between sides which language I don't know. That's why I point out to videos that are difficult to forge and to historical reference, in order not to found statements based on "all russian are evil". I know Russian and your interpretation that fascists control Ukraine is wrong. I agree though, normal people dont charge into sniper fire by heavily armed police with orders to shoot to kill. But normally police doesnt have trouble getting support from other police units when they are suppressing just a small minority -- like after football matches or even when there were protests against arrest of Timoshenko. The reason why the Ukrainian Army didnt support Yanukovich and why Berkut was so disorganized was because the vast majority of people on Maindan were normal citizens. So it takes a special kind of soldier to go out and try to beat those people up. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On February 28 2014 04:47 nunez wrote: of course it matters. it makes his posts hollow and worthless propaganda. Actually, it makes just you look like you're on a personal crusade to discredit a valid point. I'm not talking about his posts in general, and so weren't you. I agree with his point, not because he made it, but because i thought the same. And i'm neither russian nor american. And, again, if the US were the aggressor (which they are not, makes your vendetta here even more pointless) i would say exactly the same. Russia should use the means they tell other countries to use, as easy as that. If they don't, they had all the "laughs" coming. As does the US over and over again. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On February 28 2014 04:21 nunez wrote: it's comical how hollow you are deb. 'take it through the un' would have resulted in half a page of you losing your mind if the us was the potential agressor. i'm glad you know what i'd do, now i don't have to figure it out for myself! it's comical how bullshit like this is the best you can come up with. we already had this scenario if i recall correctly around 2005-2006ish when some people were trying to get the UN or the ICC to go after George Bush, I wasn't on TL then but i didn't lose my mind over it. i disagreed with their premise but i did not think or say that it was beyond the pale for people to try to do so and i still do not. we also already had this scenario with Syria where some people were saying go to the UN to prevent any bombing of Syria, I didn't go into half a page of losing my mind over that either. but whatever, you and your crystal ball have already ordained the future. it's fucking pathetic that people think they can call someone hollow and imply they're a hypocrite based off of what they think that person would do in the future, not anything they've actually done. totally fucking pathetic. (this is not towards you m4inbrain) i think people who oppose the US should usually lose, not that they shouldn't even be allowed to try. especially when we're talking about diplomatic opposition. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
lol deb, i was talking about your post history, not a future post you would make. you're a hypocrite, whatever gains the us or hurts the USSR is the side you invariably will be, and have been, touting on tl. wear it loud and proud, don't go all victim on me. edit: i don't care about you was to the smurf, not you debbie. i care about you a whole lot. ;> | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
ok lol deb, i was talking about your post history, not a future post you would make. No, you weren't. Talking about if the US were the aggressor and how I would lose my shit over the course of half a page about it (presumably it would be all my posts taking up half a page) is talking about future posts I would make, since the US isn't the aggressor here, so it would have to be some future scenario where this would allegedly happen. And my post history doesn't support your claim anyway. Where did I lose my mind over half a page about people trying to restrain the US via the UN? Nowhere? Okay. So... where did you get your functioning crystal ball? | ||
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Sokrates
738 Posts
On February 28 2014 04:57 DeepElemBlues wrote: So... "i dont care about you" is a valid reason to make stuff up and then attack someone over it. ok No, you weren't. Talking about some future scenario and what I would do in it is talking about future posts I would make. And my post history doesn't support your claim anyway. So... where did you get your functioning crystal ball? The funny thing about you is that you are basically like zeo but yet you attack everyone that doesnt share your point off view. You are even worse than zeo if i think about it. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On February 28 2014 04:20 Nyxisto wrote: Can we just agree that both the US and Russia have had periods of really fucked up foreign policies and stop the "who's the worse imperialist" contest? Both of their foreign policy is still fucked up as it has been since the moment they became major powers. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On February 28 2014 03:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: Russia protecting civilians. I guess we've all forgotten what Putin did to Grozny. It is really, really, really hard to argue against a country invading another country because it claims people of its national ethnic identity are being oppressed in another country? It's Russia. There, argued against, very easily. Again, maybe you have forgotten, it's Russia. And what you're suggesting has never been accepted as sole justification for going to war post-WW2 because it has been used again and again and again for wars of conquest and "protecting our brothers" has never been the real reason. If Russia has legitimate concerns about ethnic Russians being oppressed in the Ukraine, take it to the UN. Unilateral invasions are bad, I thought? I guess it depends on which country is doing it... In other words: Ahahahahahahahahahaha. Flew right over your head. If Russia attacking the Ukraine to protect Russians from the new Ukrainian government is so noble, and this is Russia's stated intent, and that is what we have to go on, Russia's word, how is the US attacking Iraq in part to protect the Kurds and Shiites from Saddam's tyranny, as was part of the US's stated intent, that is what we had to go on, the US government's word, how are those two things different? Oh,because you know that the US invaded Iraq for selfish gain. The same way you know Russia's claim of protecting ethnic Russians is not a cover for selfish gain. It's just so reasonable. The international community would accept that? It would not. It has already said it would not. Now you can say that maybe they still would, but the Ukraine is not Iraq, and Russia is not the US. Saddam slaughtering civilians was part of the US stated reason for invasion, it seems you're just ignorant. By the way, how much oil did the US grab from Iraq? That's right, none. Not a single barrel. Again, you're ignorant. We could have. We could have put our soldiers around the oil fields and grabbed as much oil as we could. But. We. Didn't. Sadly, no. You're the one creating fantasy scenarios where Russia could be accepted as the "good guy" yet you're not attaching emotional weight to it? Your reasoning looks like a cloverleaf interchange seen from the sky. Pretty sure the US consistently portrayed the Iraqi people as the good guys being terrorized and massacred by Saddam and then by insurgents. But hell you're not going off facts so who cares. Being democratically elected means you can't dominate the politics of the country so as to steer the benefits of corruption to you and your friends? Interesting. I guess that means large portions of 19th century US history simply did not happen then. Being democratically elected means you can't throw political opponents in jail and repress dissent? How many examples of countries do we have where precisely that has happened? I guess Yanukovych got that $12 billion fortune by going out and shaking the famed magical money trees that grow on the banks of the Dnieper. Democracy apparently only means free and fair elections. Once you do that and win, party time! You were democratically elected, do what you want, the r.Evos of the world will support you because hey you were fairly elected! Corrupt the government, throw people in jail for no legitimate reason, pass draconian speech and protest laws, have your robocops shoot protesters, whatever. All that matters is that that election was done right. And last I am far more well-informed than you about the Ukraine and Russia which can easily be concluded from what you're saying and what I'm saying and I'm not interested in having the less erudite and their pretzel logic tell me that I need to educate myself. I think you missed the point where I explained to you how there is no difference between the US using false pretense to start a war that the international community accepted and, possibly, Russia using false (?) pretense to start a war that the international community would accept just the same. Might have went over your head because I mentioned the US first, sorry that I didn't make it more clear. It's exactly the same argument the US made for Saddam vs civilians, thanks for elaborating my point further there. Apart from that if you genuinely believe that, assuming violent outbreaks against the Russian speaking population, the international community would be appalled by an intervention then it seems your view of things might be a bit on the narrow end of the "US = good / Russia = bad"-spectrum. But, hey, at least we know that going to the UN and trying to employ a paper tiger will really get things done properly. e: On February 28 2014 04:53 DeepElemBlues wrote: i think people who oppose the US should usually lose, not that they shouldn't even be allowed to try. especially when we're talking about diplomatic opposition. Nevermind. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On February 28 2014 04:59 Sokrates wrote: The funny thing about you is that you are basically like zeo but yet you attack everyone that doesnt share your point off view. You are even worse than zeo if i think about it. It's not about me no matter how much you want it to be, and you and zeo are two peas in a pod your attack on me is a classic case of projection  I think you missed the point where I explained to you how there is no difference between the US using false pretense to start a war that the international community accepted and, possibly, Russia using false (?) pretense to start a war that the international community would accept just the same. Might have went over your head because I mentioned the US first, sorry that I didn't make it more clear. I didn't miss your bad point, it was a bad point. Bad points being rejected is not them being missed. It's exactly the same argument the US made for Saddam vs civilians, thanks for elaborating my point further there. Apart from that if you genuinely believe that, assuming violent outbreaks against the Russian speaking population, the international community would be appalled by an intervention then it seems your view of things might be a bit on the narrow end of the "US = good / Russia = bad"-spectrum. Just stating the reality of the situation, it has nothing to do with a "good/bad" spectrum, the West has already said it will not accept a Russian invasion of the Ukraine and Russia is not the US. In this case, it would be the US in opposition which automatically lends a rather large measure of strength to the opposition position since, you know, the US is the richest and strongest country on the planet. There is your difference. You can fantasize all you want about Russia's narrative somehow being accepted. No Western government would accept it. [quote]But, hey, at least we know that going to the UN and trying to employ a paper tiger will really get things done properly./quote] The Ukraine is totally dependent on the West to prevent it from financially collapsing, if ethnic Russians were being slaughtered and Russia went to the UN over it the West would act there and independently to pressure Ukrainians to stop. Like say by threatening to not give the Ukraine any of the money it very desperately needs. Countries that are not so dependent on other countries can defy pressure from the liberal internationalist order if they so choose, a country like the Ukraine needs to be more careful. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On February 28 2014 04:57 DeepElemBlues wrote: So... "i dont care about you" is a valid reason to make stuff up and then attack someone over it. ok No, you weren't. Talking about some future scenario and how I would lose my shit over the course of half a page about it (presumably it would be all my posts taking up half a page) is talking about future posts I would make. And my post history doesn't support your claim anyway. So... where did you get your functioning crystal ball? haha, your post history tooootally supports that claim. don't be coy. birth defect. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On February 28 2014 03:05 m4ini wrote: And again. You're comparing russia to the country that also felt that poland should be german. And france. And austria. And the UK. And quite alot of other countries. Not to mention, forged a reason (lied) to invade poland. Not entirely sure that there is any point to gain if you compare things that nazi-germany did to anything. Point being: nazi-germany back in the day had an agenda anyway. World domination. So to me at least, that's completely void. About that. All of the Russian news outlets I have seen blame Euromaidan snipers for the mass killings. And most Russians (and not only Russians) believe that. Important note: When Ukraine gave up it's nuclear arsenal in 1994, USA, Russia and GB guaranteed it's sovereignty and territorial integrity and vouched to protect it. At the time Ukraine had 3rd largest nuclear arsenal, larger than GB, France and China combined. So according to it's obligations Russia not only can't support unconstitutional separatism, they actually need to take actions against it. | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On February 28 2014 05:03 Cheerio wrote: About that. All of the Russian news outlets I have seen blame Euromaidan snipers for the mass killings. And most Russians (and not only Russians) believe that. Important note: When Ukraine gave up it's nuclear arsenal in 1994, USA, Russia and GB guaranteed it's sovereignty and territorial integrity and vouched to protect it. At the time Ukraine had 3rd largest nuclear arsenal, larger than GB, France and China combined. So according to it's obligations Russia not only can't support unconstitutional separatism, they actually need to take actions against it. Konrad Adenauer (chancellor of germany after ww2) allegedly said at some point "what do i care about the silly stuff i said yesterday" (Was kuemmert mich mein Geschwaetz von gestern). Guess that goes for every politician, ever, in the entire history. | ||
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