EPTWell said. It seems like the only way to be represented is to have a fair election..
Ukraine Crisis - Page 504
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Mc
332 Posts
Well said. It seems like the only way to be represented is to have a fair election.. | ||
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nanosystem
14 Posts
On May 06 2014 18:47 Mc wrote: @Sf-fork Well said. It seems like the only way to be represented is to have a fair election.. I doubt the Ukraine will have a fair election. It's questionable if the Ukraine will be able to hold an election at all. With the increasing amount of violence on both sides, having a peaceful election is near impossible and either way one of the sides will be unhappy. Any pro-Europe party winning wil be called a "fascist gay Nazi football fan junta" and the votes will obviously be manipulated and any pro-Russia party winning will be will be called "greedy oppressors that are on Russia's payroll". Regardless of the result, it's doubtful that the "civil war" will stop. The only chance at peace would be Russia and Europe cooperating to stop the violence on both sides, but a) it's unlikely Russia will agree to cooperate and b) both sides are so angry they might just choose to ignore foreign involvement. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
On May 06 2014 18:37 EvilTeletubby wrote: The tolerance level for shitty posting in this thread is going significantly down. Lol. You are a joke. Come back after you've crossed 25 and read ur messag. Then ull realise what a pompous ass you sound like! User was warned for this post User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On May 06 2014 18:59 nanosystem wrote: I doubt the Ukraine will have a fair election. It's questionable if the Ukraine will be able to hold an election at all. With the increasing amount of violence on both sides, having a peaceful election is near impossible and either way one of the sides will be unhappy. Any pro-Europe party winning wil be called a "fascist gay Nazi football fan junta" and the votes will obviously be manipulated and any pro-Russia party winning will be will be called "greedy oppressors that are on Russia's payroll". Regardless of the result, it's doubtful that the "civil war" will stop. The only chance at peace would be Russia and Europe cooperating to stop the violence on both sides, but a) it's unlikely Russia will agree to cooperate and b) both sides are so angry they might just choose to ignore foreign involvement. No, Russia is more than willing to negotiate and they have been all along. Sabotaging the may 25 election will force EU and USA to negotiate with Russia without Ukraine having much say, which has been Russias wish all along. Ukraine is being held prisoner in a geo-political situation where Putins feeling of being ignored and trampled by hypocrites has boiled into an open rebellion against the current "world order". Putin wants to be taken serious and respected in all international matters he sees Russia having a stake in. Ukraine needs to be kept neutral and since the current political climate in Ukraine is so heavily anti-russian there are no other ways to do it than keeping them out of the negotiation, by keeping their legitimacy questionable! If EU insists on taking over Ukraine, Russia will insist on Novorossiya/Donbass whatever they can musters independence and of course Crimea belonging to Russia. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
On May 06 2014 18:59 nanosystem wrote: I doubt the Ukraine will have a fair election. It's questionable if the Ukraine will be able to hold an election at all. With the increasing amount of violence on both sides, having a peaceful election is near impossible and either way one of the sides will be unhappy. Any pro-Europe party winning wil be called a "fascist gay Nazi football fan junta" and the votes will obviously be manipulated and any pro-Russia party winning will be will be called "greedy oppressors that are on Russia's payroll". Regardless of the result, it's doubtful that the "civil war" will stop. The only chance at peace would be Russia and Europe cooperating to stop the violence on both sides, but a) it's unlikely Russia will agree to cooperate and b) both sides are so angry they might just choose to ignore foreign involvement. Putin said that Ukraine is a made up country. that alone says something about what happens now - ukraine is being un-made. nothing will be fixed by elections. you'll either have a split ukraine or have a syria reloaded there. Vladimir Putin wants to see the independent state of Ukraine wiped off the map, the country’s interim prime minister claimed yesterday. that's where it's at. | ||
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Ramong
Denmark1706 Posts
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SF-Fork
Russian Federation1401 Posts
However, as a citizen that does not want to see his society further plunge into chaos, I am willing to accept democratic elections and constitutional reviews with cojoined observers from Russia and EU. If these supposed elections are in the end deemed a fraud, then and only then I would consider separatism legitimate. The sad fact is that both sides are being overrun by violent thugs, while normal citizens are being polarized by pain and hate and become violent in turn. | ||
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vndestiny
Singapore3473 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
one sided article with blank statements; still, i quoted that because it's what i believe it happens now. plus, somewhere in this topic, Putin was quoted saying that ukraine was a made up country while the other (international) politicians presented there thought it's funny and laughed at "the joke" | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On May 06 2014 20:06 SF-Fork wrote: I oppose the legitimacy of the current Ukrainian government and I loathe EU's involvement in adamantly supporting it. However, as a citizen that does not want to see his society further plunge into chaos, I am willing to accept democratic elections and constitutional reviews with cojoined observers from Russia and EU. If these supposed elections are in the end deemed a fraud, then and only then I would consider separatism legitimate. The sad fact is that both sides are being overrun by violent thugs, while normal citizens are being polarized by pain and hate and become violent in turn. I completely agree with the cojoined observed election idea and the polarizing beeing a huge problem. I even agree that the current government in Kiev is very questionable, though I have a hard time seeing a good alternative for keeping the country stable untill an election could be satisfactorily held after Yanukovych left. If things work out as you propose without too much fraud it would be near perfect. | ||
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CYFAWS
Sweden275 Posts
On May 06 2014 19:49 xM(Z wrote: Putin said that Ukraine is a made up country. that alone says something about what happens now - ukraine is being un-made. nothing will be fixed by elections. you'll either have a split ukraine or have a syria reloaded there. that's where it's at. Well, techically ukraine is a "made up country". That might be said for all countries to some extent but ukraine has always been a heavily contested borderland between russian, polish and hungarian empires. The idea that russia would have a right to areas inhabited by culturally russian ukrainians is however racist and nationalist. If the russian ukrainians really want to be a part of russia, or a free nation, then I guess that should be up to them. Our nation states are however very fragile card houses built solely on repression, splitting them up for shits and giggles will inevatibly lead to immense human suffering. Of course I would however also want to get as far away as possible from the EU/NATO/USA-backed nazis that already commenced their political and ethnical cleansing of western ukraine if I was an eastern ukrainian. | ||
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nanosystem
14 Posts
On May 06 2014 20:48 CYFAWS wrote: Well, techically ukraine is a "made up country". That might be said for all countries to some extent but ukraine has always been a heavily contested borderland between russian, polish and hungarian empires. The idea that russia would have a right to areas inhabited by culturally russian ukrainians is however racist and nationalist. If the russian ukrainians really want to be a part of russia, or a free nation, then I guess that should be up to them. Our nation states are however very fragile card houses built solely on repression, splitting them up for shits and giggles will inevatibly lead to immense human suffering. Of course I would however also want to get as far away as possible from the EU/NATO/USA-backed nazis that already commenced their political and ethnical cleansing of western ukraine if I was an eastern ukrainian. Do you have any source for the "political and ethnical cleansing of western ukraine"? That's a pretty big claim. Especially together with calling them Nazis. As far as I know, the Ukraine did not set up concentration camps or Gulags yet. | ||
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PaleMan
Russian Federation1953 Posts
there will be 2 Ukraines - one will be called Novorussia and will consist of south-east regions of current Ukraine other will be called Ukraine and will consist of Kiev + western regions i will be satisfied with forementioned outcome | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On May 06 2014 20:06 SF-Fork wrote: I oppose the legitimacy of the current Ukrainian government and I loathe EU's involvement in adamantly supporting it. However, as a citizen that does not want to see his society further plunge into chaos, I am willing to accept democratic elections and constitutional reviews with cojoined observers from Russia and EU. If these supposed elections are in the end deemed a fraud, then and only then I would consider separatism legitimate. The sad fact is that both sides are being overrun by violent thugs, while normal citizens are being polarized by pain and hate and become violent in turn. It is an interim government. It does not matter if people oppose it's legitimacy because the only real purpose of the government was to keep things ticking over until elections could take place. Russia forced parts of the EU (and the US) to support Kiev when they moved into Crimea, due to the Budapest Memorandum. Admittedly, there was some support before that time, but no significant overt actions (such as they sanctions) would of occurred if Russia had not violated the above mentioned treaty. I agree with you about the violent thugs. Take the example in Odessa where two large and opposing groups formed to protest on the streets. What did they expect to happen? The obvious best course of action for Ukrainian citizens would of been to stay calm and wait for the election. However, I am of the opinion that what happened in Crimea greatly incited unrest among anti-west Ukrainians. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On May 06 2014 20:06 SF-Fork wrote: I oppose the legitimacy of the current Ukrainian government and I loathe EU's involvement in adamantly supporting it. However, as a citizen that does not want to see his society further plunge into chaos, I am willing to accept democratic elections and constitutional reviews with cojoined observers from Russia and EU. If these supposed elections are in the end deemed a fraud, then and only then I would consider separatism legitimate. The sad fact is that both sides are being overrun by violent thugs, while normal citizens are being polarized by pain and hate and become violent in turn. What's your opinion on the upcoming elections? Do you think they're a good idea, is it what you (since you seem reasonable, i'll ask you as "my personal reference for "the people") would support? I'm not flamebating or something, i'm honestly interested in your view. Also, i'd like to know your view on the donetsk region etc boycotting votings, is that the general idea of "the people", or the idea of those criminals/thugs in charge there right now? | ||
itsjustatank
Hong Kong9179 Posts
On May 06 2014 20:48 CYFAWS wrote: Well, techically ukraine is a "made up country". That might be said for all countries to some extent but ukraine has always been a heavily contested borderland between russian, polish and hungarian empires. The idea that russia would have a right to areas inhabited by culturally russian ukrainians is however racist and nationalist. If the russian ukrainians really want to be a part of russia, or a free nation, then I guess that should be up to them. Our nation states are however very fragile card houses built solely on repression, splitting them up for shits and giggles will inevatibly lead to immense human suffering. Of course I would however also want to get as far away as possible from the EU/NATO/USA-backed nazis that already commenced their political and ethnical cleansing of western ukraine if I was an eastern ukrainian. Speaking of Nazis, pre-1939 a certain leader was saying Poland and Czechoslovakia were made-up countries. He also said something about protecting the rights of speakers of his language too, I recall. | ||
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PaleMan
Russian Federation1953 Posts
Jeff Monson: | ||
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Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On May 06 2014 21:07 PaleMan wrote: It's simple: there will be 2 Ukraines - one will be called Novorussia and will consist of south-east regions of current Ukraine other will be called Ukraine and will consist of Kiev + western regions i will be satisfied with forementioned outcome Ah, the Novorussia Putin narration, sigh. If anything there will be 3 countries: Ukraine, Southern Ukraine + Kharkov and Donbas. You cannot put Donbas into the same sack as Odessa, Zaporizhia, Kharkov and other Southern/East Ukraine. These are completely different regions to speak of. Look what has happened in Odessa, Kharkov, Zaporizhnia and Mikolaiv so far, the pro-russian protests that took place there have been sqaushed and it does not seem that they will reemerge in the near future. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
 *** *** This might be trouble: *** So much for the no fly zone: *** Europe is still a bit delusional: *** And evidence of implosion: *** *** Interesting bit: *** *** Conclusions of the Vienna meeting to be expected later today. | ||
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SF-Fork
Russian Federation1401 Posts
On May 06 2014 21:42 m4ini wrote: What's your opinion on the upcoming elections? Do you think they're a good idea, is it what you (since you seem reasonable, i'll ask you as "my personal reference for "the people") would support? I'm not flamebating or something, i'm honestly interested in your view. Also, i'd like to know your view on the donetsk region etc boycotting votings, is that the general idea of "the people", or the idea of those criminals/thugs in charge there right now? Unfortunately I can't answer you first-hand because I currently live outside of Ukraine. All I could tell you would be impressions of family and friends (which are quite diverse on the other hand). As for the upcoming elections, sadly I believe it is too late to form an inclusive government as it is now. The only good thing so far is that Putin hasn't invaded like he threatened and the west feared. Maybe if a cease fire is signed with the separatists there could be some hope, but they don't seem to be coordinated enough for that to happen. As it stands right now, almost any elective result will be harshly contested. Maybe federalization could be a good thing in the end? How and on what terms can they agree to it is what remains to be seen. | ||
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