Ukraine Crisis - Page 505

On May 06 2014 21:59 PaleMan wrote:
Fedor Emelianenko on Ukraine Crisis:



Jeff Monson:

On May 06 2014 22:37 zatic wrote:
Is there any info out there how the rebels downed the Mi-24s? I know they are equipped with more than just AKs but those things are not exactly easy to shoot down.

On May 06 2014 20:52 nanosystem wrote:

Do you have any source for the "political and ethnical cleansing of western ukraine"? That's a pretty big claim. Especially together with calling them Nazis. As far as I know, the Ukraine did not set up concentration camps or Gulags yet.

On May 06 2014 22:41 zeo wrote:
I seriously don't understand the people labeling the anti-government supporters in Ukraine now as 'pro-Russian', they are all the people in Ukraine that oppose the illegitimately imposed government. Though I guess labeling them Russians gets the point of 'which side we should be on' easier to an uneducated public.

Did Russia sign an IMF agreement forcing the country to accept austerity measures which destroyed the currency, cut social payments, cut salaries, ect? Was it Russia who stole the gold and moved it to NY recently? Did Putin impose mandatory tax for "Maidan recovery" on people who didn't elect him. Did Russia completely sell economical and political Ukrainian sovereignty to Brussels by signing the association agreement? Was Putin stealing Ukrainian gas for 20 years straight? Why is it not ok to protest against these things? Why should people stand by when an unelected government starts taking out $17 billion in loans that no one will be able to pay back?

Bern, 06.05.2014 - Vienna, 6 May 2014 - Austrian Presidency of the Council of Europe - Speech by the President of the Swiss Confederation, Mr Didier Burkhalter - Check against delivery

Dear colleagues

I am grateful that we are having this debate on Ukraine. We have reached a pivotal moment, both for Ukraine and for Europe. It is important that we do not turn our backs against each other in this situation. Rather, we should all commit to resolving this crisis through dialogue.
As you know, Switzerland is chairing the OSCE this year. From the beginning of our Chairmanship, we have been closely involved in efforts to assist Ukraine in resolving this crisis. I take the liberty of addressing you here as Chairperson-in-Office of the OSCE. And I wish to make four main points:

First, we need to reverse the logic of escalation that has marked this crisis so far.

Just a few months ago, in early December last year, most of us met in Kiev for the OSCE Ministerial Council. Little did we anticipate then how much the Ukraine crisis would evolve and expand. Today, not even half a year later, Ukraine is struggling for its territorial integrity and national cohesion. Instability is growing in eastern and southern parts of the country. The spectre of new rifts looms on Europe’s horizon.

It is our duty as politicians to reverse this logic of escalation. I am convinced that we can accomplish this – it is above all a question of responsible leadership.
“Responsible” in this case means commitment to dialogue and cooperation, to de-escalatory measures and rhetoric, and to constructive engagement in the search for solutions in keeping with national and international law.


Second, we need a roadmap for the period until the elections.

Time is of the essence now. The roadmap that the Swiss Chairmanship is proposing covers a series of issues. Convergence on these issues should help stabilize the situation and provide conditions to hold the planned elections.

These issues include international commitment to presidential elections on 25 May; international commitment to the conduct of a nationwide consultative opinion poll on decentralization (in parallel with the elections), which is tied to broad national dialogue, including roundtable discussions in the regions; recommitment to implementing the measures agreed in the Geneva Statement. Security questions will also have to be addressed.

It is essential that the four parties of the Geneva Statement back such a roadmap and its implementation in the form of an Action Plan. The Swiss Chairmanship is currently consulting with the leaders of all four parties on how to proceed on this matter.


Third, the OSCE is ready to take up a lead role in implementing this roadmap.

The Special Monitoring Mission that was set up by consensus decision has been tasked to support Ukraine in implementing the Geneva Measures. We are currently evaluating how this should best be done in the light of the proposed roadmap. And we are enlarging the capacity of this Mission, from 154 monitors today to about 300 by the end of June. I invite all of you to support the Monitoring Mission with additional funding and monitors, including experts in disarmament and mediation.

The OSCE is also ready to facilitate inclusive national dialogue in Ukraine. We are convinced that such roundtables are essential to address grievances, to reassure all parties that they have a stake in the Ukrainian state, and hence to strengthen national cohesion.

Finally, the OSCE through ODIHR is observing the elections. 100 long-term observers are already deployed throughout the regions in Ukraine. An additional 900 short-term observers will follow in due time.


My fourth and final point is this: As the OSCE is demonstrating its value, we should redouble our efforts to strengthen its capacity to act
One effect that the Ukraine crisis may well have is that not all of the priorities that the Swiss Chairmanship had defined for this year will be fulfilled. But one thing is clear: Our objective of strengthening mediation capacities in the OSCE is more relevant than ever. Bridge-building will remain in high demand, and the OSCE has an important role to play in this regard.

As ministers, it is also time to get more actively involved in the “Helsinki+40” process on the OSCE’s future. On the one hand, this may result in recommitting to the Helsinki Principles and discussing the cornerstones of European security. But on the other hand, it should also mean discussing practical measures to enable the OSCE to tap its full potential.
Source.

On May 06 2014 22:50 Roman666 wrote:

Come on mate, they protest with several flags in their hands, People's Republic of Donetsk flag, Lugansk Republic flag and Russian flag. That is what sells them as pro-russian. Not to mention chanting "Rossiya" all the time.

This is why they come off as guys who want to join RF. Perhaps they don't and the Russian flags are some sort of call for help against Kiev, hell I do not know what is the intent behind it.

On May 06 2014 22:52 zeo wrote:

Thats like saying all the people waving American and German flags or whatever at euromaidan wanted to annex Lviv to America. How about asking the protesters what they want?

On May 06 2014 22:52 zeo wrote:

Thats like saying all the people waving American and German flags or whatever at euromaidan wanted to annex Lviv to America. How about asking the protesters what they want?

On May 06 2014 22:41 zeo wrote:

What happened at Maidan has been discussed enough times in this thread but in a country as divided as Ukraine this was going to be the outcome from the beginning and everyone at maidan knew it. Crimea was threatening Yanukovych from the beginning that they would take independence by force if they had to if he didn't deal with the people waving Bandera flags, the whole of eastern Ukraine was in an uproar.

I seriously don't understand the people labeling the anti-government supporters in Ukraine now as 'pro-Russian', they are all the people in Ukraine that oppose the illegitimately imposed government. Though I guess labeling them Russians gets the point of 'which side we should be on' easier to an uneducated public.

Did Russia sign an IMF agreement forcing the country to accept austerity measures which destroyed the currency, cut social payments, cut salaries, ect? Was it Russia who stole the gold and moved it to NY recently? Did Putin impose mandatory tax for "Maidan recovery" on people who didn't elect him. Did Russia completely sell economical and political Ukrainian sovereignty to Brussels by signing the association agreement? Was Putin stealing Ukrainian gas for 20 years straight? Why is it not ok to protest against these things? Why should people stand by when an unelected government starts taking out $17 billion in loans that no one will be able to pay back?

West Ukraine doesn't own the land the east Ukrainians live on and west Ukraine has no right to deport or kill them for not agreeing with their take-over of government.

On May 06 2014 22:37 zatic wrote:
Is there any info out there how the rebels downed the Mi-24s? I know they are equipped with more than just AKs but those things are not exactly easy to shoot down.

On May 06 2014 22:41 zeo wrote:
Think for a moment what the term 'fascist' might mean to some people.

- Western and southern Europeans/Americans ect. link it to oppressive regimes, lack of freedom
- Jews, Poles, Serbs first think about great suffering and extermination of undesired nations or people.
- Others see it as a buzzword you throw around at people you don't like.

For most people that live in the former Soviet Union being butthurt about the USSR winning the war automatically makes you a fascist, a fascist collaborator and a revanchist. Period. Nothing, absolutely nothing can redeem someone when they say that they are sorry Germany didn't win the war. Nothing, no but this, no but that.

During WWII a part of the Ukrainian people saw fit to use the German occupation of Ukraine to inflict massive suffering to all people living in Ukraine they deemed unworthy including other Ukrainians. The horrible deeds of the UIA are well documented and will never be forgotten, never. Through the immense suffering of all the people of the USSR including the brave people of Ukraine the fascists and their collaborators were defeated and a part of Poland was annexed to the Soviet Republic of Ukraine, the part were the fascist collaborators were most active in cleaning the population.

Now you can get a better picture of what it was like living in the post-war USSR Ukraine, a large part of the country was perfectly content with living in the USSR (some more, some less), but all were proud of their countries role in the war. While a minority that was extremely butthurt kept on being butthurt till this very day.

No one, and I have repeated this a million times in this thread before, has the right to call themselves 'more' Ukrainian than a guy living in another part of the country.

And this is the core of the nationalism and the need to feel special that took over parts of Ukraine since its independence. Everything was ok until the early 2000's when politicians in Ukraine saw that they could exploit the need of some people to feel special and turn it into seats in government. One only has to look at the Orange Revolution to see how parts of Ukrainian society were falling to these politicians and were manipulated into thinking they were oppressed. When they took power the Russophobic propaganda went through the roof, absolutely everything started being blamed on Russia while the politicians steered Ukraine into an economic abyss.

This would have been your run of the mill idiot corrupt politician who could be replaced, but the moment Yushchenko started rehabilitating WWII war criminals the fate of Ukraine was sealed. This pants-on-head-retarded disgusting act absolutely infuriated more than half of the country (and Ukraine's neighbors) and set off the chain of events that led us to the present day situation in Ukraine. These politicians were so horrible that Yanukovych, the man ousted in the Orange revolution won the next elections fair and square according to the EU.

What happened at Maidan has been discussed enough times in this thread but in a country as divided as Ukraine this was going to be the outcome from the beginning and everyone at maidan knew it. Crimea was threatening Yanukovych from the beginning that they would take independence by force if they had to if he didn't deal with the people waving Bandera flags, the whole of eastern Ukraine was in an uproar.

I seriously don't understand the people labeling the anti-government supporters in Ukraine now as 'pro-Russian', they are all the people in Ukraine that oppose the illegitimately imposed government. Though I guess labeling them Russians gets the point of 'which side we should be on' easier to an uneducated public.

Did Russia sign an IMF agreement forcing the country to accept austerity measures which destroyed the currency, cut social payments, cut salaries, ect?

Was it Russia who stole the gold and moved it to NY recently?

Did Putin impose mandatory tax for "Maidan recovery" on people who didn't elect him.

Did Russia completely sell economical and political Ukrainian sovereignty to Brussels by signing the association agreement?

Was Putin stealing Ukrainian gas for 20 years straight?

Why is it not ok to protest against these things?

Why should people stand by when an unelected government starts taking out $17 billion in loans that no one will be able to pay back?

West Ukraine doesn't own the land the east Ukrainians live on and west Ukraine has no right to deport or kill them for not agreeing with their take-over of government.

Below is a quote from this The Interpreter's Russian liveblog.

`A critical report on human rights violations in Crimea, originally posted on the front page of the Russian Presidential Council on Human Rights, has been "censored" because of reporting truthfully about poor turnout in the Crimean referendum, Forbes writer Paul Roderick Gregory reports.

But we have found the story is actually more complicated, as the report is still available, isn't official, and doesn't make claims of "only 15%" voting for annexation - the figure given is 50%. But clearly it has been removed from view and easy access due to its critical findings on a number of topics.'

As we point out, the Forbes article distorts the voting data, the scale and nature of the report, and the fact that the report was not removed as Forbes claims.

What is important, however, is that, according to the report, turnout appears to much much lower than the Kremlin maintains it was (The Interpreter has been producing evidence of that since the vote was held) and that the voting margins were far more narrow, even if, according to the report, 50% still voted in favor of the referendum.
Read the full report here.

On May 07 2014 00:47 zeo wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shR84V5vLNE

Tymoshenko calling for the attack on WWII veterans in Odessa on the 9th of May

On May 07 2014 02:39 Cheerio wrote:


Oh zeo, you are so easily fooled. In the edited video she is saying "during planned sport events in Eastern and Southern Ukraine... [other part] in order to enrage Odesa it is need that the veterans are attacked."

Do you really think that Tymoshenko is that stupid to believe that Odesa will rise up if WW2 veterans get beat up by people looking like they are pro-Russian? This is beyond stupid. Everyone will blame pro-Ukrainians regardless of how attackers look like. And she is making that shrewd plan of hers in front of half a dozen cameras?

In reality that was a meeting where she was disclosing intercepted plans of pro-Russians.

On May 07 2014 03:19 zeo wrote:

You find it so hard to believe this was said by the bread haired politician that said this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shG1b8DGnkU
Which she confirmed happened http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/tymoshenko-denies-wipe-out-russians-comment-201432513315433906.html no matter how many times you cry montage she confirmed it was her voice and used sentances that couldnt be used in any other way. Not to mention the words of the man she is speaking with.

She is clearly, clearly unstable though luckily has no government position.

On May 07 2014 03:24 Cheerio wrote:

... she confirmed the conversation EXCEPT the part where she is allegedly going to "shoot Russians [those that live in Ukraine] with nuclear weapons". First of all how do you shoot somebody with nuclear weapons? Secondly Ukraine doesn't have it. Thirdly how do you kill just Russians with nuclear weapons without killing Ukrainians?

On May 06 2014 23:58 Ghanburighan wrote:
Follow up:


With this in mind, please take the above Forbes article with an even greater grain of salt.