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On March 07 2014 02:45 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 20:19 fleeze wrote:On March 06 2014 20:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 06 2014 19:52 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On March 06 2014 19:49 Ghanburighan wrote:
Judiator, stop spamming the thread with nonsense. Contribute something topical or don't post at all. yea cuz Sub40APM posting like 50 links to random websites with literally no comment of his own on any of it isn't spamming or nonsense at all.  Sub40APM has posted several bits of new and interesting topical news pieces, that's exactly the type of content This thread needs. If I have issues with any of those 50 links being off topic or nonsense, I will say so. As for conspiracy theories, they ought to be ignored or engaged with using actual factual content. Otherwise the thread gets littered with 'I have the biggest e-dick' posts. sub40apms coverage of "news" in this thread is pretty much onesided and more then biased. Yes, I needed to include more Slobodan Milosevic quotes to justify Russian annexation of a foreign country based on race to give this a more balanced Russian perspective.
maybe you should include other opinions that make much more sense then your sources.
from the your posts the side you are taking is pretty much obvious.
and blaming me for other peoples milosevic quotes is quite stupid. also you could respect that people from serbia and croatia have other relations to milosevic as you do and can actually make such comparisons.
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On March 07 2014 02:52 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 01:35 radiatoren wrote:On March 07 2014 01:23 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Principles do not triumph or fail in a vacuum. As Proudhon wrote, "people react less to ideas and social constructs than to realities of power." The necessity of legitimacy exists, and we should move to support its fragility wherever we can, but in frank conversation, we must confess that legitimacy is ever the servant of authority, and not its master.
Yanukovych was not moved to restore the 2004 constitution because he was convinced of its superior political merits, but because of the contingencies of the moment.
In the same vein, had the Crimeans remained demure and recognised the new authority in Kiev, they would have never been granted the right to a referendum when the dust was settled, on the pretext that such a referendum would be unconstitutional. That argument would have in turn have been backed by all the material and moral forces of Western states and media. By seizing power prior to affirming legitimacy, the goalposts are automatically shifted in their favour, and the moment is exploited because the crisis has opened a chasm of chaos where creative legal reasoning can seize the day and triumph, if exerted with sufficient support and vigour.
If you want to go the Neville Chamberlain route of "all changes are possible as long as they are implemented without force", then you hammer out an agreement guaranteed by all parties. This has not been undertaken because a referendum of full self-determination has never been the position of any of the interested parties; neither of the provisional government, nor of the Western Powers, nor, as of yet, the Russian government. The only people who have been involved in pushing it through are the Crimeans. Not only that. The crimean representatives were elected in a completely different socio-political climate and the legitimacy as a representative body for the people of Crimea therefore has to be questioned to begin with, when they are making as drastic decissions as they do. Quite ironic. ^___^
The authority of the Crimean leaders come from somewhere. I just question the implicit assumption for using Crimeans instead of Crimean authorities when talking about pushing separation through. Legitimacy as a representative body is not what their authority comes from, thus the need for separation of Crimean authorities and Crimeans...
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I hate how our media and politicians exaggerate the American involvement in Poland. Wow they're going to send 12 old jets here for a while, I feel much safer now!
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On March 07 2014 03:13 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 02:45 Sub40APM wrote:On March 06 2014 20:19 fleeze wrote:On March 06 2014 20:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 06 2014 19:52 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On March 06 2014 19:49 Ghanburighan wrote:
Judiator, stop spamming the thread with nonsense. Contribute something topical or don't post at all. yea cuz Sub40APM posting like 50 links to random websites with literally no comment of his own on any of it isn't spamming or nonsense at all. Sub40APM has posted several bits of new and interesting topical news pieces, that's exactly the type of content This thread needs. If I have issues with any of those 50 links being off topic or nonsense, I will say so. As for conspiracy theories, they ought to be ignored or engaged with using actual factual content. Otherwise the thread gets littered with 'I have the biggest e-dick' posts. sub40apms coverage of "news" in this thread is pretty much onesided and more then biased. Yes, I needed to include more Slobodan Milosevic quotes to justify Russian annexation of a foreign country based on race to give this a more balanced Russian perspective. maybe you should include other opinions that make much more sense then your sources.
from your source
Disclaimer here: Vladimir Putin's proclaimed justification for invading Ukraine — protecting Russian-speaking "compatriots" in that country from some imagined violence — stinks of tribalism.
His rationale is essentially ethnic nationalism, something responsible for so much of the evil done throughout human history.
The rest of the article is bout American hypocrisy in regards to Iraq or Israel. But since I am not American, or Iraqi or Israel or Palestinian, what do I care that America is displaying hypocrisy now?
Angela Merkell has also condemned the invasion -- or is she and Germany guilty of past crimes so I guess she cant comment either? Perhaps Steven Harper -- his government has condemend the invasion and Canada hasnt done that much torturing, oh no wait, it was in Afghanistan so it must be also evil. How about Sweden, they havent invaded anyone since the 18th century and their Foreign Minister had this to say:
"That which is now happening is a violation of international law, it is not compatible with the principles we have for European security," Carl Bildt told reporters in Stockholm on Saturday evening.
"It is very serious," he added.
and blaming me for other peoples milosevic quotes is quite stupid.
You wanted a variety of sources, I posted quotes from the Russian media on the crisis where Milosovic was used as a positive justification for this 'non invasion.' I posted the Russian government's paper that explicitly said Yanukovich is an American puppet and the whole crisis has been orchestrated by the CIA. I posted an article by a Russian political scientist with close ties to the Kremlin where he compared Putin to Jews in 1934 Germany, except he is acting instead of waiting for Kristalnacht
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/why-there-will-be-war-in-ukraine/495740.html
Putin made the right decision: He did not to wait for that attack and took preventative measures. Many in the West say the Kremlin's reactions were paranoiac, but Germany's Jews also thought the same of leaving the country in 1934. Most of them chose to believe they were safe and remained in Germany even after Hitler came to power. The infamous Kristallnacht took place five years later, one of the first early chapters in the "Final Solution." Similarly, just four years remain until Russia's presidential election in 2018, and there is a strong risk that subversive forces within and outside Russia will try to overthrow Putin, in part using their new foothold in Ukraine.
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On March 07 2014 03:10 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +17:43: More on the US decision to send 12 F-16 jets to Poland (see 17:03) - the US ambassador to Poland, Stephen Mull, says the scale of the training drill is designed to reassure US allies in the light of the Ukraine crisis.
17:22: On the threat of sanctions against Russia, German chancellor Angela Merkel says: "I hope it won't come to that but we made it very clear here today that we are ready to go ahead with this if it became necessary."
On Wednesday the Pentagon announced it would more than double its commitment of aircraft to joint NATO-policing missions in the Baltics, moving six additional F-15s and one KC-135 aircraft from the UK to Siauliai Air Base in Lithuania. The Pentagon also announced Wednesday that it was increasing its commitment to joint airforce-training exercises in Poland.
Now we have the details of that move, via Reuters, picking up on Polish media reports Thursday.
The US defense department will also send 12 F-16 fighter jets to Poland for a training exercise, Reuters reports:
The jets will arrive at the Lask base, in central Poland, on Monday, the online versions of the Gazeta Wyborcza and Rzeczpospolita newspapers reported. A Polish defence ministry spokesman said he could not confirm the reports.
Update: The Polish defense ministry confirms and says 300 US military personnel are coming as well, Reuters reports.
Suddenly the US started doing all kinds of trainings in this area. First american destroyer came to the Black sea to do "training" with Romanian and Bulgarian navy(which is almost not existant), now fighter jets in Poland and the Baltics...
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/07/world/europe/crimea-russia.html
Russian soldiers patrol the airport parking lot and, although still without markings on their uniforms, have dropped all pretense that they are not Russian. Asked where he was from, a masked soldier at the airport said he was with the Russian infantry and had been sent to Crimea a week ago on a mission to protect the region “against the enemy, Ukraine.”
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On March 07 2014 02:26 zlefin wrote:
Russia sure is asking for it. Sad, truly quite sad, and despicable.
stephen walt thinks the us has been asking for it:
The Obama administration was clearly taken by surprise when Russia decided to seize Crimea by force. The real question, however, is why Obama and his advisors thought the United States and the European Union could help engineer the ouster of a democratically elected and pro-Russian leader in Ukraine and expect Vladimir Putin to go along with it? This remarkable combination of hubris and naiveté is even more striking when one considers that Washington has few, if any, options to counter Putin's move. source
the ruskis are calling us bluff and administering the west a taste of its own medicine. at least the ruskis are administering it in a ridiculous fashion.
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On March 07 2014 03:33 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 03:10 Sub40APM wrote:17:43: More on the US decision to send 12 F-16 jets to Poland (see 17:03) - the US ambassador to Poland, Stephen Mull, says the scale of the training drill is designed to reassure US allies in the light of the Ukraine crisis.
17:22: On the threat of sanctions against Russia, German chancellor Angela Merkel says: "I hope it won't come to that but we made it very clear here today that we are ready to go ahead with this if it became necessary."
On Wednesday the Pentagon announced it would more than double its commitment of aircraft to joint NATO-policing missions in the Baltics, moving six additional F-15s and one KC-135 aircraft from the UK to Siauliai Air Base in Lithuania. The Pentagon also announced Wednesday that it was increasing its commitment to joint airforce-training exercises in Poland.
Now we have the details of that move, via Reuters, picking up on Polish media reports Thursday.
The US defense department will also send 12 F-16 fighter jets to Poland for a training exercise, Reuters reports:
The jets will arrive at the Lask base, in central Poland, on Monday, the online versions of the Gazeta Wyborcza and Rzeczpospolita newspapers reported. A Polish defence ministry spokesman said he could not confirm the reports.
Update: The Polish defense ministry confirms and says 300 US military personnel are coming as well, Reuters reports. Suddenly the US started doing all kinds of trainings in this area. First american destroyer came to the Black sea to do "training" with Romanian and Bulgarian navy(which is almost not existant), now fighter jets in Poland and the Baltics...
To be fair there is a good opportunity for some proper "beast from the east" international co-op training to do now. Might as well oil them cogs, you know.
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On March 07 2014 03:42 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 02:26 zlefin wrote:
Russia sure is asking for it. Sad, truly quite sad, and despicable. stephen walt thinks the us has been asking for it: Show nested quote +The Obama administration was clearly taken by surprise when Russia decided to seize Crimea by force. The real question, however, is why Obama and his advisors thought the United States and the European Union could help engineer the ouster of a democratically elected and pro-Russian leader in Ukraine and expect Vladimir Putin to go along with it? This remarkable combination of hubris and naiveté is even more striking when one considers that Washington has few, if any, options to counter Putin's move. sourcethe ruskis are calling us bluff and administering the west a taste of its own medicine. at least the ruskis are administering it in a ridiculous fashion.
I would call doubt on the EU ousting Yanokovich. The movement had no international traction until they were declared illegal and violently attempted to be dispersed. This is the fault of an incompetent leader, not a nation.
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Russian Federation88 Posts
I know that Yanukovich and his others were rotten. But Ukrainians should just vote for new government and new president BY LOWS and Constitution. Next votes will be already next year!!! And will not these 100+ killed casual people... RIP =(
But what did maidanian ukrainians??? They offend against the low! It was their decisions... and only their.
So.. the law as a new Kiev government cost less a boiled egg...
Maidan won.. Ukraine lost...
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On March 07 2014 03:47 likeasu wrote:
I know that Yanukovich and his others were rotten. But Ukrainians should just vote for new government and new president BY LOWS and Constitution. Next votes will be already next year!!! And will not these 100+ killed casual people... RIP =(
But what did maidanian ukrainians??? They offend against the low! It was their decisions... and only their.
So.. the law as a new Kiev government cost less a boiled egg...
Maidan won.. Ukraine lost...
They protested because Yanokovich didnt want an EU treaty. It was just some people being unhappy with a decision.
He then declared the protest illegal and attempted to remove them by force. This failed and only added more people to the protests. It became a protest to remove Yanokovich because of the violence he used to stop the original protest.
I understand your Russian but over here in the west we have the right to protest against our government. Take that right away and people will get angry with you. Commit violence against the people and they will remove you from office.
Thats how democracy works.
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Russian Federation88 Posts
On March 07 2014 03:51 Gorsameth wrote:
They protested because Yanokovich didnt want an EU treaty.
noo... you kidding me. ARE YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN IT??!?!?!?! ahhahaahahah LOL
So why for present time new ukrainian government didnt this stap???? If EU treaty is a real maidan MAIN reason... Why it isnt made immediately??!?!
It was only stupid mative for getting power in the country.
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On March 07 2014 04:04 likeasu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 03:51 Gorsameth wrote:
They protested because Yanokovich didnt want an EU treaty. noo... you kidding me. ARE YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN IT??!?!?!?! ahhahaahahah LOL So why for present time new ukrainian government didnt this stap???? If EU treaty is a real maidan MAIN reason... Why it isnt made immediately??!?! It was only stupid mative for getting power in the country.
Russian education system at work right here
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On March 07 2014 04:04 likeasu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 03:51 Gorsameth wrote:
They protested because Yanokovich didnt want an EU treaty. noo... you kidding me. ARE YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN IT??!?!?!?! ahhahaahahah LOL So why for present time new ukrainian government didnt this stap???? If EU treaty is a real maidan reason... Why it isnt made immediately??!?!
Because neither EU or Ukraine are like Russia, where one party that can pass a law fundamentally overturning the order overnight? Ukraine needs many long and painful reforms before it can start ascension talks. But before that they need to hold elections.
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On March 07 2014 04:06 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 04:04 likeasu wrote:On March 07 2014 03:51 Gorsameth wrote:
They protested because Yanokovich didnt want an EU treaty. noo... you kidding me. ARE YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN IT??!?!?!?! ahhahaahahah LOL So why for present time new ukrainian government didnt this stap???? If EU treaty is a real maidan MAIN reason... Why it isnt made immediately??!?! It was only stupid mative for getting power in the country. Russian education system at work right here
Thats not fair, if for the past months all you heard was how Ukraine is a haven for fascists who are puppets of the Americans and believe that this is just a power play between two super powers then when you look at the speed of the Crimean 'independence' referendum -- look how quick and efficient it is -- you would expect the equivalent 'referendum' in Kiev too. And if there isnt one then what else could it be -- something even more suspicious.
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On March 07 2014 04:06 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 04:04 likeasu wrote:On March 07 2014 03:51 Gorsameth wrote:
They protested because Yanokovich didnt want an EU treaty. noo... you kidding me. ARE YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN IT??!?!?!?! ahhahaahahah LOL So why for present time new ukrainian government didnt this stap???? If EU treaty is a real maidan MAIN reason... Why it isnt made immediately??!?! It was only stupid mative for getting power in the country. Russian education system at work right here
cheap shot! it's an exotic dialect, appreciate it. he's making himself understood.
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On March 07 2014 04:04 likeasu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 03:51 Gorsameth wrote:
They protested because Yanokovich didnt want an EU treaty. noo... you kidding me. ARE YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN IT??!?!?!?! ahhahaahahah LOL So why for present time new ukrainian government didnt this stap???? If EU treaty is a real maidan MAIN reason... Why it isnt made immediately??!?! It was only stupid mative for getting power in the country.
If Maiden main goal was to overthrow Yanokovich why did it do nothing until Yanokovich turned to violence?
I Yanokovich didnt use violence nothing would have come off these protests. It makes 0 sense for them to be a mains to overthrow the government when you realize that.
Yanokovich overthrew himself.
It is normal for protestors to be beaten and arrested in Russia.
Its not normal in most of the remaining world.
ps.
To other people. Dont flame him for his typing. Not everyone knows how flawless english.
He is making the effort to type. Make the effort to read it.
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On March 06 2014 21:20 Dlash23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:13 Godwrath wrote:On March 06 2014 20:41 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 20:28 -Archangel- wrote:
Even if Russians are 58% (and those people don't just consider themselves Russian speaking Ukranians) it gives no rights for Russian military to invade.
And since when is every nationalist Nazi? By same logic both Russia and half of USA are Nazi. Did you read the history of Crimea? it was Russian region until 1954 year, when it was presented to Ukrain And 58% of population are exactly Russians, not Russian speaking Ukranians. And what kind of point is that one ? It is pretty simple: - Is Crimea Ukranian territory? Yes. - Is Ukrania a sovereign country? Yes. - Was there any danger for russians on Crimea? Nope. The excuses for occupation are laughable at best. Also, stop with the "but... but... the USA does this aswell!", because most posters in here call out when the USA does the same. It's kindergarden's logic, "i punched him because that other kid also punches other people!". of course you have all information, and know about how crimean tatars are ready at any time to cut all Russians in that region... would be a bloodbath if there no Russian army there at all.
is he trolling or what?
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On March 07 2014 02:23 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 02:03 mcc wrote:On March 07 2014 01:23 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Principles do not triumph or fail in a vacuum. As Proudhon wrote, "people react less to ideas and social constructs than to realities of power." The necessity of legitimacy exists, and we should move to support its fragility wherever we can, but in frank conversation, we must confess that legitimacy is ever the servant of authority, and not its master.
Yanukovych was not moved to restore the 2004 constitution because he was convinced of its superior political merits, but because of the contingencies of the moment.
In the same vein, had the Crimeans remained demure and recognised the new authority in Kiev, they would have never been granted the right to a referendum when the dust was settled, on the pretext that such a referendum would be unconstitutional. That argument would have in turn been backed by all the material and moral forces of Western states and media. By seizing power prior to affirming legitimacy, the goalposts are automatically shifted in their favour, and the moment is exploited because the crisis has opened a chasm of chaos where creative legal reasoning can seize the day and triumph, if exerted with sufficient support and vigour.
If you want to go the Neville Chamberlain route of "all changes are possible as long as they are implemented without force", then you hammer out an agreement guaranteed by all parties. This has not been undertaken because a referendum of full self-determination has never been the position of any of the interested parties; neither of the provisional government, nor of the Western Powers, nor, as of yet, the Russian government. The only people who have been involved in pushing it through are the Crimeans. Hmm, well put, both posts. To add Crimea was promised in the early nineties that "soon" all regions that want to will be able to have referendum on independence or at least on returning to the old constitution. Of course once situation stabilized that promise was reneged upon, and Ukraine will never allow them to leave peacefully. On March 07 2014 01:35 radiatoren wrote:On March 07 2014 01:23 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Principles do not triumph or fail in a vacuum. As Proudhon wrote, "people react less to ideas and social constructs than to realities of power." The necessity of legitimacy exists, and we should move to support its fragility wherever we can, but in frank conversation, we must confess that legitimacy is ever the servant of authority, and not its master.
Yanukovych was not moved to restore the 2004 constitution because he was convinced of its superior political merits, but because of the contingencies of the moment.
In the same vein, had the Crimeans remained demure and recognised the new authority in Kiev, they would have never been granted the right to a referendum when the dust was settled, on the pretext that such a referendum would be unconstitutional. That argument would have in turn have been backed by all the material and moral forces of Western states and media. By seizing power prior to affirming legitimacy, the goalposts are automatically shifted in their favour, and the moment is exploited because the crisis has opened a chasm of chaos where creative legal reasoning can seize the day and triumph, if exerted with sufficient support and vigour.
If you want to go the Neville Chamberlain route of "all changes are possible as long as they are implemented without force", then you hammer out an agreement guaranteed by all parties. This has not been undertaken because a referendum of full self-determination has never been the position of any of the interested parties; neither of the provisional government, nor of the Western Powers, nor, as of yet, the Russian government. The only people who have been involved in pushing it through are the Crimeans. Not only that. The crimean representatives were elected in a completely different socio-political climate and the legitimacy as a representative body for the people of Crimea therefore has to be questioned to begin with, when they are making as drastic decissions as they do. "Not only that" seems to imply that you agree with him, but your point seems to go against what I see as his argument. I am not going against his main delineations and it may be a silly detail, but he is using Crimeans as if it were a majority of the community. My point is that it is the provinsial leaders and not necessarily the crimeans as a people pushing it through. If we are talking authorities, the destinction seems important.
Hence the referendum I assume, though how trustworthy will the results be is a rather big question.
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EPT
