European Union leaders holding a crisis meeting on Ukraine tomorrow could impose sanctions on Russia if there has been no “de-escalation” by then, French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said.
Fabius told France’s BFM TV that such measures could include restrictions on visas, the assets of individuals and existing discussions on economic ties with Russia. He said:
Let’s start to initiate the path of dialogue, but at the same time tomorrow there is an EU summit and sanctions could be voted tomorrow if there is no de-escalation. I expect and hope that Russia will today tell us that there is a prospect for dialogue with a contact group.
Fabius was speaking before hosting talks between his Russian, US, Ukrainian and other counterparts on the margins of a long-scheduled meeting on Lebanon in Paris.
Ukrainian police say they are evacuating the Donetsk regional government building, which has been occupied by pro-Russian supporters since Monday, Reuters is reporting.
A police statement said the evacuation began after reports that the building was booby-trapped with bombs.
It also says, citing witnesses, that the Ukrainian flag has been raised above the building, replacing the Russian flag, which had flown there since Saturday.
09:05: Russian forces seize two Ukrainian missile defence units in Crimea - Interfax quoting military sources says - but Ukrainian military unable to confirm, Reuters reports.
Russian MPs are working on a draft law to allow the confiscation of property, assets and accounts of European or US companies if sanctions are imposed on Russia over Ukraine, RIA news agency reported today. From Reuters:
RIA quoted Andrei Klishas, head of the constitutional legislation committee in the upper parliament house, as saying the bill “would offer the president and government opportunities to defend our sovereignty from threats”.
He added that lawyers were examining whether the confiscation of foreign companies’ assets, property and accounts would comply with the Russian constitution but said such steps would “clearly be in line with European standards”.
Russian parliamentarians are always good for a laugh.
09:20: Police in Moscow detained about 40 people on Tuesday evening who were demonstrating against the deployment of troops in Crimea. Reporters say police were quite rough with the protesters, who included some elderly people. They were protesting outside the defence ministry. Most were later released, but about 10 were kept at police stations overnight.
Quick, alert Putin, ethnic Russians are being beat up and detained!
a cornered animal is bound to bite sooner or later. why did 'the West' and its allies thought Russia would eventually join them is beyond me/basic logic/history books.
On March 05 2014 18:46 xM(Z wrote: a cornered animal is bound to bite sooner or later. why did 'the West' and its allies thought Russia would eventually join them is beyond me/basic logic/history books.
I think it is more along the lines of hoped, not necessarily thought.
It would benefit the EU and Russia immensely if the Russian leaders would just stop fearing a "western encirclement".
On March 05 2014 18:46 xM(Z wrote: a cornered animal is bound to bite sooner or later. why did 'the West' and its allies thought Russia would eventually join them is beyond me/basic logic/history books.
I think it is more along the lines of hoped, not necessarily thought.
It would benefit the EU and Russia immensely if the Russian leaders would just stop fearing a "western encirclement".
being the last at the table gets you scraps. after wars/invasions/liberations, the said country assets get divided among the participants to that war. as of now, US gets the biggest chunk and EU gets the scraps; if Russia will get in, it'll will get the scraps of the scraps. i wouldn't want that, no one would.
On March 05 2014 18:46 xM(Z wrote: a cornered animal is bound to bite sooner or later. why did 'the West' and its allies thought Russia would eventually join them is beyond me/basic logic/history books.
I think it is more along the lines of hoped, not necessarily thought.
It would benefit the EU and Russia immensely if the Russian leaders would just stop fearing a "western encirclement".
Judging by this thread the hostility between "the west" and russia is mutual. Fact is that there is a gap between putin and western politicians. The last thing anyone needs in this situation is threats, be they military or economically.
Putin is a relic of the cold war but his reasons are understandable. Ukraine is in a state of civil unrest, just short of civil war and one of russias main naval bases lies in the ukraine. Politicians should work on stabilizing the region rather than blaming each other of breaching contracts and laws. Damn hotheads.
Georgia's breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which won de facto independence with the aid of Russian troops after a brief 2008 war, are black holes for Russian tax dollars. In April, the International Crisis Group (ICG) reported that Moscow had earmarked $350 million for infrastructure projects in Abkhazia between 2010 and 2012, with that number expected to triple to $1 billion between 2013 and 2015, but that only half of the $350 million had been spent because of mismanagement and corruption.
The group noted that Abkhazia—which is located just miles from Sochi, the site of this year’s Winter Olympics—effectively depended on Moscow for a staggering 70 percent of its budget and also received roughly $70 million in pension payments for Abkhaz residents, many of whom have Russian passports. “Abkhazia’s economy is like a drug addict on Russian help,” the report quoted an opposition figure in the region as saying. “We want real help to support our economic development, not ‘facade’ assistance.
These figures may seem like drops in the bucket for a Russian government that just poured $51 billion into the Olympics and plans to spend $440 billion in 2014, but the geopolitical philanthropy Moscow offers to these breakaway regions is a serious drain on Russia’s struggling, oil-and-gas-dependent economy.
If Crimea becomes another territory under de facto Russian control, Moscow would likely be forced to pick up the tab yet again. And keep in mind: The peninsula has 2 million inhabitants, which makes it 40 times the size of South Ossetia, eight times the size of Abkhazia, and four times the size of Transnistria. That adds up to a lot of pension payment for Crimea’s residents, 20 percent of whom are over the age of 60.
Faced with these dim economic prospects, Crimea could turn to illicit activities to generate state income. Breakaway regions have a reputation for cultivating smuggling and black markets—whether because they have few revenue streams, because local authorities are busy enriching themselves, or because they are not integrated into the international legal system. In a 2011 investigation of smuggling in Transnistria, for instance, the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations reported that between 2005 and 2011, authorities along the Moldovan-Ukrainian border carried out 10 interdictions of radioactive materials and interrupted 587 illicit weapons shipments.
On top of it all, according to Hill, the seizure of Crimea may ultimately cost Russia more influence in Ukraine than it gains.
“Having worked with Russian officials, I can tell you they don’t understand social movements,” he told me. “They perceive everything as orchestrated from the top. They don’t understand that they’re risking long-term hostility from across Ukraine.”
This article conveniently ignores the fact that Crimea is infinitely less corrupt and infinitely more profitable than Abkhazia and South Ossetia. haha If what the article suggests were remotely true, the Russians wouldn't bother. A & SO are welfare missions more than anything else. Crimea would be a huge profit and I don't see in what world it would instantly transform to A & SO status.
More profit? Why? The article mentions Crimea's billion dollar deficit, the fact that 20% of the citizen are retirees, and that 60% of its trade goes with non-Russian economy, which presumably will get embargoed the way the other 3 non states in the article are... as for less corrupt? where does that come from?
Only a billion dollar deficit? We are constantly in deficit. It's led to our $17.4 trillion debt ftw! Everyone seems to have a deficit lol. Russia is typically very good with budgets and they had $9 billion deficit last year lol. I don't know what the point is of mentioning a budget deficit. Everyone has that hehe.
Corrupt? Crimea isn't today's Iraq. 90% of the money doesn't magically vanish. It's a significantly different situation than A & SO, too, which is why I found the article to be weird that it drew exact parallels. If Crimea was hugely self-destructive as implied, Russia wouldn't bother with it. It would be counter-productive given Crimea is 9001x bigger in scale than A & SO, which are extremely tiny in all regards. I have yet to hear anything that says Crimea has even a fraction of the corruption in A & SO lol.
"which presumably will get embargoed" Yeah, if you want to severely raise tensions with Russia, which isn't something the US nor its kids in Europe want to do. Our eating up the former Soviet bloc since 1991 to try to diminish any influence and power Russia has and to corner Russia is dickish enough as is. As xMZ posted, a cornered animal will strike back sooner or later. This Bear got pissed off too much while trying to chill in his cave. :S So, what we have is a power struggle of the USA with post-1990s Russia trying to maintain a balance of power in Europe instead one country dominating everything in the world like the US in the 90s.
We reaped what we sowed, sadly. The hypocrisy in the political statements from US and Russia are hilarious though. lol. Kerry and Putin I applaud you.
On March 05 2014 18:46 xM(Z wrote: a cornered animal is bound to bite sooner or later. why did 'the West' and its allies thought Russia would eventually join them is beyond me/basic logic/history books.
Russia is not cornered yet. This is just Putins game of countering economic sanctions with ridiculous economic sanctions. The "One of ours to the hospital, one of theirs to the morgue"-style moves Putin always employs. Nothing new. The west has got a lot of experience with cooperating with dictators. What is new, is that this one has some of those rare lebensraum-expanding dreams, he is willing to pursue aggressively and through all means necessary. The reason for the press conference was the public rage against him where he thought he could calm them down. He hasn't reached anywhere near his own end-game yet! I think the calculation from the west has been that he wouldn't last forever and he completely lacks a fitting heir. If history serves us well, the situation where the old prince dies and a new has to take over is the easiest time to influence a country.
On March 05 2014 18:46 xM(Z wrote: a cornered animal is bound to bite sooner or later. why did 'the West' and its allies thought Russia would eventually join them is beyond me/basic logic/history books.
lol the one that is cornered ins "The West" you'll see
On March 05 2014 18:46 xM(Z wrote: a cornered animal is bound to bite sooner or later. why did 'the West' and its allies thought Russia would eventually join them is beyond me/basic logic/history books.
Russia is not cornered yet. This is just Putins game of countering economic sanctions with ridiculous economic sanctions. The "One of ours to the hospital, one of theirs to the morgue"-style moves Putin always employs. Nothing new. The west has got a lot of experience with cooperating with dictators. What is new, is that this one has some of those rare lebensraum-expanding dreams, he is willing to pursue aggressively and through all means necessary. The reason for the press conference was the public rage against him where he thought he could calm them down. He hasn't reached anywhere near his own end-game yet! I think the calculation from the west has been that he wouldn't last forever and he completely lacks a fitting heir. If history serves us well, the situation where the old prince dies and a new has to take over is the easiest time to influence a country.
Lebensraum-dreams? LOL what are you talking about? Are you calling the Russians Nazis? haha. The only similarity I can see between Hitler and Russia is it would take a day to conquer Denmark. Let's hope Putin's "Lebensraum-dreams" don't spread there
Not a fitting heir? Sure, few are like Putin as far as effective politicians go, but I think Russia will be dandy after him. The US government is a group of incompetent goofballs (especially during Bush's time) but the US is doing extremely well because we have the most powerful corporate base in the world. Russia has a ton of extremely powerful people in the financial and business sphere that while grossly rich are responsible for much of Russia's reconstruction. The Soviet collapse + 1998 collapse made the Great Depression look like Disneyland. How Russia is even a functioning country today is a miracle within itself. Of course, this is bad for US interests.
Putin among Nobel Peace nominees but Ukraine might figure too
(Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin has been nominated for the 2014 Nobel Peace Prize - but the conflict in Ukraine is also likely to be on the Nobel committee's agenda.
A record 278 candidates, including 47 organizations, received nominations for the 2014 prize, said the Norwegian Nobel Institute's director, Geir Lundestad.
Committee members who met on Tuesday added their own proposals with a focus on recent turmoil around the globe.
"Part of the purpose of the committee's first meeting is to take into account recent events, and committee members try to anticipate what could be the potential developments in political hotspots," Lundestad said.
Russia seized control of Ukraine's Crimea region after President Viktor Yanukovich was ousted on February 22, prompting the most serious confrontation between Moscow and the West since the end of the Cold War.
...
Although nominations are kept secret for 50 years, thousands of people around the world are eligible to propose candidates, including any member of any national assembly, and many make their picks public.
The committee narrowed its list to between 25 and 40 on Tuesday and it will cut its list to about a dozen by the end of April.
After all, Obama is a laureate, and so is EU. If Putin backs down his claim and make a compromise on Ukraine/Crimea issue, he can bring "peace" to the region, you know? 1 / 278 chance, though he may be cut already.
On March 05 2014 18:46 xM(Z wrote: a cornered animal is bound to bite sooner or later. why did 'the West' and its allies thought Russia would eventually join them is beyond me/basic logic/history books.
Russia is not cornered yet. This is just Putins game of countering economic sanctions with ridiculous economic sanctions. The "One of ours to the hospital, one of theirs to the morgue"-style moves Putin always employs. Nothing new. The west has got a lot of experience with cooperating with dictators. What is new, is that this one has some of those rare lebensraum-expanding dreams, he is willing to pursue aggressively and through all means necessary. The reason for the press conference was the public rage against him where he thought he could calm them down. He hasn't reached anywhere near his own end-game yet! I think the calculation from the west has been that he wouldn't last forever and he completely lacks a fitting heir. If history serves us well, the situation where the old prince dies and a new has to take over is the easiest time to influence a country.
Lebensraum-dreams? LOL what are you talking about? Are you calling the Russians Nazis? haha. The only similarity I can see between Hitler and Russia is it would take a day to conquer Denmark. Let's hope Putin's "Lebensraum-dreams" don't spread there
Not a fitting heir? Sure, few are like Putin as far as effective politicians go, but I think Russia will be dandy after him. The US government is a group of incompetent goofballs (especially during Bush's time) but the US is doing extremely well because we have the most powerful corporate base in the world. Russia has a ton of extremely powerful people in the financial and business sphere that while grossly rich are responsible for much of Russia's reconstruction. The Soviet collapse + 1998 collapse made the Great Depression look like Disneyland. How Russia is even a functioning country today is a miracle within itself. Of course, this is bad for US interests.
I may provoke with the exact word-use, but what I am saying about him is that he has an ambition of expanding his influence (nothing more, nothing less). Not calling russians anything at all. Dont see them as Putin!
Economically Russia is going to do fine, the question remains, what happens to the dissatisfaction among the russian people? As much as you may attribute the success of USA to businesses and financial institutions, there are quite a lot of semi-independent government agencies doing their things. If IRS had to change the guard completely every time a new president entered office... I see the powerbase in Russia as far more centralized than in the west. And therein lies the skepticism.
On March 05 2014 18:46 xM(Z wrote: a cornered animal is bound to bite sooner or later. why did 'the West' and its allies thought Russia would eventually join them is beyond me/basic logic/history books.
Russia is not cornered yet. This is just Putins game of countering economic sanctions with ridiculous economic sanctions. The "One of ours to the hospital, one of theirs to the morgue"-style moves Putin always employs. Nothing new. The west has got a lot of experience with cooperating with dictators. What is new, is that this one has some of those rare lebensraum-expanding dreams, he is willing to pursue aggressively and through all means necessary. The reason for the press conference was the public rage against him where he thought he could calm them down. He hasn't reached anywhere near his own end-game yet! I think the calculation from the west has been that he wouldn't last forever and he completely lacks a fitting heir. If history serves us well, the situation where the old prince dies and a new has to take over is the easiest time to influence a country.
Lebensraum-dreams? LOL what are you talking about? Are you calling the Russians Nazis? haha. The only similarity I can see between Hitler and Russia is it would take a day to conquer Denmark. Let's hope Putin's "Lebensraum-dreams" don't spread there
Not a fitting heir? Sure, few are like Putin as far as effective politicians go, but I think Russia will be dandy after him. The US government is a group of incompetent goofballs (especially during Bush's time) but the US is doing extremely well because we have the most powerful corporate base in the world. Russia has a ton of extremely powerful people in the financial and business sphere that while grossly rich are responsible for much of Russia's reconstruction. The Soviet collapse + 1998 collapse made the Great Depression look like Disneyland. How Russia is even a functioning country today is a miracle within itself. Of course, this is bad for US interests.
I may provoke with the exact word-use, but what I am saying about him is that he has an ambition of expanding his influence (nothing more, nothing less). Not calling russians anything at all. Dont see them as Putin!
Economically Russia is going to do fine, the question remains, what happens to the dissatisfaction among the russian people? As much as you may attribute the success of USA to businesses and financial institutions, there are quite a lot of semi-independent government agencies doing their things. If IRS had to change the guard completely every time a new president entered office... I see the powerbase in Russia as far more centralized than in the west. And therein lies the skepticism.
Yea I'm just messing hehe. Imperial, powerful nations mean to expand their influence. This is what the Russians are doing right now. This may come as a shock to people, but the US has been doing this since 1776. Every advanced nation in Europe was doing this until the US and USSR split the continent in half. Everywhere in every era has been doing this. For Russia itself, it is a centuries-old tradition.
In developing or post-collapse "developed" countries, there's always going to be discontent because unlike some countries in Europe and North America there is actually such a thing as poverty. But as Russia develops, this dissatisfaction will diminish.
Even in the US, at the end of the day, few people give a care how full of shit this politician or that person is as long as they're living well enough. But even here, we have had movements like Occupy Wall Street and other things. Then people simmer down and realize despite the fact there may be a lot of bs and there's some very greedy people with infinite money, they're not doing so bad themselves.
As Russia gets towards that stage, the amount of dissatisfaction, which is always tied to people's lack of individual well-being, will diminish. And yet even in the worst episodes in Russia, people who get rowdy for various reasons end up simmering down pretty quickly. If I was living in Denmark, and I'm making a decent living and have no concerns for things like if I'm going to be able to afford food, I have no reason to be dissatisfied unless the Danish government decided it didn't like Vikings. :3 Russia still has lots of recovery and progress to make and as that goes on, discontent will go down. Even despite the lasting effects of the apocalyptic 1990s, it's a very difficult country to manage in many, many ways requiring a competent centralized government. One thing that many people can relate to is all I hear about in the news all day is about Islamic terrorists on the other side of the world from Saudi or Iran or wherever. If the US had Islamic terrorists in its own country like Russia does, things would be a lot more insane here haha.
On March 05 2014 20:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: One thing that many people can relate to is all I hear about in the news all day is about Islamic terrorists on the other side of the world from Saudi or Iran or wherever.
All that time we were told lies about Ukraine! Just see the video to learn the truth we've been seeking! . I always knew that things in Ukraine are not what they seem to be and it turned out that notorious Euromaidan sniper was shooting both sides!
EPT
It's led to our $17.4 trillion debt ftw! Everyone seems to have a deficit lol. Russia is typically very good with budgets and they had $9 billion deficit last year lol. I don't know what the point is of mentioning a budget deficit. Everyone has that hehe.
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