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On March 05 2014 08:56 RvB wrote:
I don't really see any intelligent and calculated politics anyway, what is Putin actually gaining out of this? He's not getting more than Crimea and he already lost all the goodwill he had by organizing the olympics.
I didn't think I would link to the following article as it's a combination of speculation and jumping to conclusions, but if this is the mood in the thread, here's one of the most colourful answers to that question.
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She can say anything she wants about Putin, but it does not change the fact that she tried to talk him down and he played it cool and made her feel like the loser.
Source? Because as far as i am aware, there is no transcript about what they were talking about and in what manner. It was just that small part with "other world" that was leaked. There isn't even confirmation for that.
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On March 05 2014 08:38 xuanzue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 08:07 Saryph wrote:On March 05 2014 08:00 xuanzue wrote:On March 05 2014 07:58 Saryph wrote:+ Show Spoiler +https://twitter.com/20committee/status/440980753229156352 I put the post in quotes since it messes with spacing for some people, but what it says is: 5 Kanal TV reports that "Russian military and Cossacks" in Crimea are buying Ukrainian military uniforms and insignia... Cossacks pro-Rusia? seems legit Excuse me? Could you explain to me your problem with the idea of Russian cossacks? maybe that this year is not 1860?
No offense but if a quick google search can show you the existence of Cossack units in the military and civil affairs of today's Russia, you shouldn't be so dismissive.
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To answer the question what Obama and Putin truly talked about in their 90 minute phone call on Saturday - well, the same as we've been doing in this thread:
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
russia still depend much more on the grace ( or rather, greed) of the west than vice versa. i see no reason to celebrate 'the rise of russia' if it means darker days for the ordinary people under its influence.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26440560
Those who know her way of operating say that Chancellor Merkel's background as a scientist is apparent.
Dr Ewald Boehlke, the director of the German Institute for Foreign Policy, told the BBC: "She thinks like a scientist so she takes out all emotion. She will be keeping in contact to work out how to de-escalate the situation step by step."
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On March 05 2014 09:06 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +She can say anything she wants about Putin, but it does not change the fact that she tried to talk him down and he played it cool and made her feel like the loser. Source? Because as far as i am aware, there is no transcript about what they were talking about and in what manner. It was just that small part with "other world" that was leaked. There isn't even confirmation for that.
The point of the discussion was to discuss the situation of Russian intervention in Ukraine, or specifically to tell Putin what he's doing is bad. Obviously, Merkel was made to feel uncomfortable by it, which means Putin obviously didn't fold. That much can easily be gathered.
If today's press conference says anything, he took the same exact approach as he must have with Merkel, because his "attackers" came out more uncomfortable than reassured of their moral high ground.
On March 05 2014 08:52 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 08:34 SkelA wrote:
Wait I thought some of the protesters were fascists/neo nazies armed with guns and rifles? Was that russian propaganda ?
Or they were peaceful protesters with just molotov cocktails ? USA/western propaganda?
What was the truth in the end? Little bit of both? A little of both I think, I'm sure there were more than enough protesters with guns (there were very many and if the other side is shooting at you I really can't believe that people would just keep on using stones and molotov cocktails). Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 08:45 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 05 2014 08:39 m4ini wrote:On March 05 2014 08:37 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 05 2014 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:VLADIMIR PUTIN: My dear colleague, look how well trained the people who operated in Kiev were. As we all know they were trained at special bases in neighbouring states: in Lithuania, Poland and in Ukraine itself too. They were trained by instructors for extended periods. They were divided into dozens and hundreds, their actions were coordinated, they had good communication systems. It was all like clockwork. Did you see them in action? They looked very professional, like special forces. Why do you think those in Crimea should be any worse? The protesters in the Maidan could barely manage a half-coordinated barrage of molotov cocktails at approaching lines of Berkut and charged at Berkut groups in disorganized mobs. Coordination of logistical and medical activities was carried out by people who already had experience in those fields (doctors, people involved in political activism, etc.) basically, this: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116852/merkel-was-right-putins-lost-his-mind-press-conference He's anything but lost his mind. All I saw from that article is he's playing politician as good as it gets. If Putin is known for anything, it's being very intelligent and calculated. But bullshitting and acting, as per typical of a politician, isn't grounds for having lost one's mind imho. Merkel obviously can't tell when someone is playing politics. Because she was the only one who said that. Right. Whether or not she is the "only one" is irrelevant to this matter so I don't know why you bring it up. Don't make a smartass comment that says nothing, and then state nothing beyond it. Putin is playing politician. That's the only point to be had from this. It doesn't matter what people trying to get him to submit think of him lol. Yeah, if someone doesn't want to do what I want them to do and was trolling me in response to my instigated discourse, I wouldn't be happy with them either. If I was the type, I may even talk shit about them too. That's what's happening here. Everyone else is trying to try and get some higher ground on him and he's literally just trolling them and being a superior bullshitter. That's all I see him doing. He's an extremely tactful politician. Anyone who knows anything about Putin knows that. He's only "lost his mind" because he's not accepting and agreeing to every case brought against him, and they're unhappy and so are resorting to insulting him. Instead, he's replying in a manner that is making his "attackers" uncomfortable that they even approached him in the first place, like Merkel. He's playing politics perfectly. Little else needs to be said. Maybe she ment it from an ethical perspective. Afterall calling somebody who's willing to let people die during an invasion/freeze to death due to the lack of gas for power insane isn't that far off when you mean it in the sense that he completely ignores the "rules" of the modern civilization/political realities. Which I think she does, since she said he's "living in another world".
Please give me evidence that Putin is willing to commit genocide because if this were in fact the case the US media would never shut up about it. The man is having a completely non-violent conflict in a situation where the US would have leveled a few cities by now.
If Putin's "living in another world" on an ethical basis in regards to foreign policy, as you are suggesting, then I can't even imagine what she says (or more realistically, would like to say) about the US. I'm not supporting Russian incursion at all, but the situation could be significantly worse if other administrations were in his shoes.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 05 2014 08:37 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:VLADIMIR PUTIN: My dear colleague, look how well trained the people who operated in Kiev were. As we all know they were trained at special bases in neighbouring states: in Lithuania, Poland and in Ukraine itself too. They were trained by instructors for extended periods. They were divided into dozens and hundreds, their actions were coordinated, they had good communication systems. It was all like clockwork. Did you see them in action? They looked very professional, like special forces. Why do you think those in Crimea should be any worse? The protesters in the Maidan could barely manage a half-coordinated barrage of molotov cocktails at approaching lines of Berkut and charged at Berkut groups in disorganized mobs. Coordination of logistical and medical activities was carried out by people who already had experience in those fields (doctors, people involved in political activism, etc.) basically, this: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116852/merkel-was-right-putins-lost-his-mind-press-conference He's anything but lost his mind. All I saw from that article is he's playing politician as good as it gets. If Putin is known for anything, it's being very intelligent and calculated. But bullshitting and acting, as per typical of a politician, isn't grounds for having lost one's mind imho. Merkel obviously can't tell when someone is playing politics.
putin is an autocrat with a big ego and cult of personality. these things are not that uncommonly associated with madness.
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On March 05 2014 08:56 RvB wrote:
I don't really see any intelligent and calculated politics anyway, what is Putin actually gaining out of this? He's not getting more than Crimea and he already lost all the goodwill he had by organizing the olympics.
He only wants Crimea. He needs it for the Black Sea fleet and thus requires it to keep it's status quo: Russian friendly & partly autonomous.
Ukrainian nationalists (*cough* Nazis "[You are the ones] that the Moscow-Jewish mafia ruling Ukraine fears most") from Swoboda like Oleh Tyahnybok pushed for removing all that even before Maidan. Now with a lot of them in a high political position it was a high probability that they would've pushed for it again; which can be seen by the idea of removing Russian as official language.
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On March 05 2014 09:02 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 08:51 radiatoren wrote:On March 05 2014 08:37 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 05 2014 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:VLADIMIR PUTIN: My dear colleague, look how well trained the people who operated in Kiev were. As we all know they were trained at special bases in neighbouring states: in Lithuania, Poland and in Ukraine itself too. They were trained by instructors for extended periods. They were divided into dozens and hundreds, their actions were coordinated, they had good communication systems. It was all like clockwork. Did you see them in action? They looked very professional, like special forces. Why do you think those in Crimea should be any worse? The protesters in the Maidan could barely manage a half-coordinated barrage of molotov cocktails at approaching lines of Berkut and charged at Berkut groups in disorganized mobs. Coordination of logistical and medical activities was carried out by people who already had experience in those fields (doctors, people involved in political activism, etc.) basically, this: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116852/merkel-was-right-putins-lost-his-mind-press-conference He's anything but lost his mind. All I saw from that article is he's playing politician as good as it gets. If Putin is known for anything, it's being very intelligent and calculated. But bullshitting and acting, as per typical of a politician, isn't grounds for having lost one's mind imho. Merkel obviously can't tell when someone is playing politics. Please. Merkel said that Putin is "living in another world", a common reference to the 1900s political diplomacy. That is actually pretty much calling it playing politics, but in a way she doesn't consider to conform with todays reality. I actually think Putins way of handling the media pretty much confirms her view. Precisely. He's playing politics. I'm more than certain the he knows "today's reality" a lot better than most anyone. But he doesn't have to act that way if it would give up ground. But because he decided to play dumb and play every card right, Merkel is very uncomfortable. There's nothing else to say. She can say anything she wants about Putin, but it does not change the fact that she tried to talk him down and he played it cool and made her feel like the loser. This is Putin: People are bringing "attacks" against him, and his response is to make them feel uncomfortable for doing so in the first place. To say the least, he's been extremely successful given the fact that the response has been some bad talk about him.
The problem is the perception in the motherland of what he is doing. The professor getting fired, the tv-reporter calling the invasion of Crimea unacceptable, the anti-war demonstration where almost 1/10 of the numbers from the staged pro-invasion showed up despite a lot less coverage for it and 73% calling for no meddling in Ukraines affairs after the ousting of Yanukovych.
source
He may be winning some powerplay, but he is absolutely getting on the wrong side of the russian people and his propaganda stations are unable to convince enough of his rightiousness. Internationally he is reaching towards pariah, even after his press conference. In the end it is going to be another situation to wake up to for Putin.
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On March 05 2014 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +VLADIMIR PUTIN: My dear colleague, look how well trained the people who operated in Kiev were. As we all know they were trained at special bases in neighbouring states: in Lithuania, Poland and in Ukraine itself too. They were trained by instructors for extended periods. They were divided into dozens and hundreds, their actions were coordinated, they had good communication systems. It was all like clockwork. Did you see them in action? They looked very professional, like special forces. Why do you think those in Crimea should be any worse? The protesters in the Maidan could barely manage a half-coordinated barrage of molotov cocktails at approaching lines of Berkut and charged at Berkut groups in disorganized mobs. Coordination of logistical and medical activities was carried out by people who already had experience in those fields (doctors, people involved in political activism, etc.) basically, this: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116852/merkel-was-right-putins-lost-his-mind-press-conference
so dishonest deb.
if that latter part is putin being snidy it's quite funny. us is funelling resources into organizing in protests like these with said experienced people and have been for a long time.
i think naive to think not directly, in the face of facts to pretend not indirectly. good Jake Rudnitsky quote (piece on orange-revolution) re: pando article poster earlier:
The protests have come under fire as an American-funded coup, particularly in the Russian media. And there’s some truth to it — the US has been bringing in Serbs and Georgians experienced in non-violent revolution to train Ukrainians for at least a year. One exit poll — the one finding most heavily in favor of Yushchenko — was funded by the US. The smoothness and professionalism of the protest, from the instant availability of giant blocks of Styrofoam to pitch the tents on to the network of food distribution and medical points, is probably a result of American logistical planning. It’s certainly hard to imagine Ukrainians having their act together that well. The whole orange theme and all those ready-made flags also smack of American marketing concepts, particularly Burson-Marstellar. source
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On March 05 2014 09:17 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 08:37 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On March 05 2014 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:VLADIMIR PUTIN: My dear colleague, look how well trained the people who operated in Kiev were. As we all know they were trained at special bases in neighbouring states: in Lithuania, Poland and in Ukraine itself too. They were trained by instructors for extended periods. They were divided into dozens and hundreds, their actions were coordinated, they had good communication systems. It was all like clockwork. Did you see them in action? They looked very professional, like special forces. Why do you think those in Crimea should be any worse? The protesters in the Maidan could barely manage a half-coordinated barrage of molotov cocktails at approaching lines of Berkut and charged at Berkut groups in disorganized mobs. Coordination of logistical and medical activities was carried out by people who already had experience in those fields (doctors, people involved in political activism, etc.) basically, this: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116852/merkel-was-right-putins-lost-his-mind-press-conference He's anything but lost his mind. All I saw from that article is he's playing politician as good as it gets. If Putin is known for anything, it's being very intelligent and calculated. But bullshitting and acting, as per typical of a politician, isn't grounds for having lost one's mind imho. Merkel obviously can't tell when someone is playing politics. putin is an autocrat with a big ego and cult of personality. these things are not that uncommonly associated with madness.
True without a doubt, but what madness is he doing besides being a better socializer on the political field (making a confident "attacker" claiming the high ground feel uncomfortable isn't easy) and making relations with some of his neighboring countries that the US is hoping to expand to? Because that's his "madness" that has been stated in the last two pages of the thread.
He is "mad" in some ways, but certainly not the things that people are stating.
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On March 05 2014 09:16 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
Please give me evidence that Putin is willing to commit genocide because if this were in fact the case the US media would never shut up about it. The man is having a completely non-violent conflict in a situation where the US would have leveled a few cities by now.
If Putin's "living in another world" on an ethical basis in regards to foreign policy, as you are suggesting, then I can't even imagine what she says (or more realistically, would like to say) about the US. I'm not supporting Russian incursion at all, but the situation could be significantly worse if other administrations were in his shoes.
Whoa, buddy, calm down, I never even came close to saying he's willing to commit genocide.
I said he's willing to let people die during the invasion, which isn't unlikely if neither side backs down, on a global scale the quantities may not even be that high if it really comes to an armed conflict, but even those relatively "small" numbers would still be on Putin's shoulders for invading the Ukraine in the first place.
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On March 05 2014 09:08 Saryph wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 08:38 xuanzue wrote:On March 05 2014 08:07 Saryph wrote:On March 05 2014 08:00 xuanzue wrote:On March 05 2014 07:58 Saryph wrote:+ Show Spoiler +https://twitter.com/20committee/status/440980753229156352 I put the post in quotes since it messes with spacing for some people, but what it says is: 5 Kanal TV reports that "Russian military and Cossacks" in Crimea are buying Ukrainian military uniforms and insignia... Cossacks pro-Rusia? seems legit Excuse me? Could you explain to me your problem with the idea of Russian cossacks? maybe that this year is not 1860? No offense but if a quick google search can show you the existence of Cossack units in the military and civil affairs of today's Russia, you shouldn't be so dismissive.
if we are gonna google, then look for cossacks in WWII, or the fate of cossacks after 1917.
sorry, I can't believe in an article claiming that cossacks are buying uniforms.
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Edit: @Nunez's comment regarding the efficiency of the protests: I honestly don't care which way this argument goes, but I'd like to point that protesting on the streets of Kyiv is something local people are VERY good at. In fact, when I used to visit between 05 and 10, I saw tents of protesters every time.
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On March 05 2014 09:27 Ghanburighan wrote:
Edit: @Nunez's comment regarding the efficiency of the protests: I honestly don't care which way this argument goes, but I'd like to point that protesting on the streets of Kyiv is something local people are VERY good at. In fact, when I used to visit between 05 and 10, I saw tents of protesters every time.
post orange revolution, so chalk it up to positive side effects of endowed democracy.
to be clear; no tents in ukraine protests before orange revolution.
zeo will provide photographic evidence.
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On March 05 2014 09:33 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 09:27 Ghanburighan wrote:
Edit: @Nunez's comment regarding the efficiency of the protests: I honestly don't care which way this argument goes, but I'd like to point that protesting on the streets of Kyiv is something local people are VERY good at. In fact, when I used to visit between 05 and 10, I saw tents of protesters every time. post orange revolution, so chalk it up to positive side effects of endowed democracy.
Ukrainians have had a tradition of anti-authoritarian protest much earlier than that.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/tent-city-spearheads-the-anti-kuchma-protests/255135.html
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Putin made a bunch of excellent points about the Euromaidan, what happened after 21 feb, the hypocrisy of the west in various conflicts... but that stuff about Crimean citizens suddenly acting like commandos is just over the top hilarious.
It also says a lot about his endgame. He's out to set Russia up as a superpower again. He's acting exactly like the Americans acted in Iraq (where even close allies didn't join in the hunt, not to mention public opinion everywhere outside the US about the veracity of the wmd claims), he's basically telling the world that 'I don't care whether you know I am lying, I don't care whether you're calling me out, I will do whatever the hell I want anyway'.
I don't think he's being wise though. So Merkel probably got it right.
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On March 05 2014 09:27 xuanzue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 09:08 Saryph wrote:On March 05 2014 08:38 xuanzue wrote:On March 05 2014 08:07 Saryph wrote:On March 05 2014 08:00 xuanzue wrote:On March 05 2014 07:58 Saryph wrote:+ Show Spoiler +https://twitter.com/20committee/status/440980753229156352 I put the post in quotes since it messes with spacing for some people, but what it says is: 5 Kanal TV reports that "Russian military and Cossacks" in Crimea are buying Ukrainian military uniforms and insignia... Cossacks pro-Rusia? seems legit Excuse me? Could you explain to me your problem with the idea of Russian cossacks? maybe that this year is not 1860? No offense but if a quick google search can show you the existence of Cossack units in the military and civil affairs of today's Russia, you shouldn't be so dismissive. if we are gonna google, then look for cossacks in WWII, or the fate of cossacks after 1917. sorry, I can't believe in an article claiming that cossacks are buying uniforms.
Cossack cadets fill a gap in Russia's sense of security and patriotism
Video shows Pussy Riot members beaten by Cossacks
The Cossacks Are Back. May the Hills Tremble.
Read a few of them.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
at least the U.S. is sponsoring actual freedom rather than cocaine lords.
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EPT
