On March 05 2014 20:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: One thing that many people can relate to is all I hear about in the news all day is about Islamic terrorists on the other side of the world from Saudi or Iran or wherever.
I'm sorry what?
The Middle East has dominated US news for more than a decade. War, terrorism, religious radicals, revolutions, etc. I realize it may not be that way in France. Since we're no longer clusterfucking Iraq and in the process of withdrawing from Afghanistan, this has been reduced though. Things like current events in Ukraine are also drawing away from the attention of places like Egypt, Syria, and Iran.
Anyways, my point was, it's one thing to hear about a major issue on the other side of the world. It's a completely different story to have it right within your own country.
On March 05 2014 20:48 Joelen wrote: All that time we were told lies about Ukraine! Just see the video to learn the truth we've been seeking! . I always knew that things in Ukraine are not what they seem to be and it turned out that notorious Euromaidan sniper was shooting both sides!
That actually sounds authentic (I'm Estonian myself). So it could be more leaked Russian spying? Perhaps like with the US?.
What they say is that some civic activist Olga told Paet that there's belief that someone in the Maidan is behind the snipers. Paet said that if this is the case or the rumour spreads, it would discredit the Maidan and create even more distrust in the Rada, and without the Rada, the country could not function.
I've tweeted the video in Estonia, I'm sure there will be a response whether it's authentic or not.
***
Important times to listen to:
3.32: Regions party said there are 'uninvited visitors during the night to party members' and Paet reported that some journalists with him saw a member of parliament beaten in front of the parliament build by 'these guys on the street with guns'.
8.22: Paet: "What Olga [of the civil society/Maidan people] said all evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides among policemen and on the streets that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides. She also showed [Paet] some photos, she said that as medical doctor she can say that it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it's really disturbing that now the new coalition don't want to investigate what has happened. So there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers it was not Yanukovich but it was somebody from the new coalition."
Ashton: "I do think they do want to investigate."
Paet: "What is disturbing is that if it starts to live its own life powerfully it already discredits from the very beginning also this new coalition."
Ashton: "Well, this is what they're supposed to be careful of as well, they need to demand great change, but they have also got to let the Rada function. If the Rada does not function then there will be chaos. Being an activist and a doctor is very important, but [something something] politician, and they have got to get to a kind of accommodation for the next few weeks as to how the country is going to run and then after elections they can think of change."
On March 05 2014 21:53 R1CH wrote: For consideration, this video was posted by what appears to be a Russian based spam bot.
I am sure it has, it seems authentic enough.
In the end it doesn't really tell that much. That the Maidan people don't trust the old regime people around Timoshenko is nothing new. The part about the snipers really doesn't say anything except that it is still unclear who shot who.
Russian nationalists in Crimea. They don't really give the impression of being peaceful democrats.
From Swedish newspaper DN: "They say that we are Nazis, fascists and I do not know what dirty words we get tossed at us. But we just want peace and that our country is left in peace", says protester Katja Bogdan..
On March 05 2014 21:53 R1CH wrote: For consideration, this video was posted by what appears to be a Russian based spam bot.
Thanks Admin...
It's pretty realistic to believe that nation-states and political groups are willing to pay for propaganda pushing, China's "50 Cent Party" is one example that comes to mind. Forumspam as propaganda is very likely to happen, it seems just along the same lines as China's fake blogs...
The internet is as much a battleground for the FSB (Putin's alma mater, the KGB's new name) as the streets
Don't believe anything isn't staged/fabricated if you don't know you can trust that it came from a real source, basically.. It's sad that people have to be told this, but yeah.
Well at least it give us some non ukrainian or russian propoganda info on things in Kiev. It seems party of regions in parlament is indeed working and accepts new laws under extreme pressure.
On March 05 2014 21:53 R1CH wrote: For consideration, this video was posted by what appears to be a Russian based spam bot.
I am sure it has, it seems authentic enough.
In the end it doesn't really tell that much. That the Maidan people don't trust the old regime people around Timoshenko is nothing new. The part about the snipers really doesn't say anything except that it is still unclear who shot who.
It does emphasize the extent of distrust between the Rada/coalition and the Maidan people on the ground. This is a potential major source for further crises. But I agree, neither Paet nor Ashton seemed to buy the story regarding the snipers originating from the coalition.
On a positive note, it seems the Party of Regions sans Yanukovich is rather reasonable, and willing to come to the table.
On March 05 2014 21:53 R1CH wrote: For consideration, this video was posted by what appears to be a Russian based spam bot.
I am sure it has, it seems authentic enough.
In the end it doesn't really tell that much. That the Maidan people don't trust the old regime people around Timoshenko is nothing new. The part about the snipers really doesn't say anything except that it is still unclear who shot who.
Using provocateurs and shooting at your own people is well known tactics used by KGB and CIA for decades,and others have been doing that with some success Best known example is Markale market in Sarajevo when muslim forces deliberately shoot mortar rounds at their own people and blamed Serbian forces who were surrounding the city. This resulted in NATO bombing Serbian forces. After the war French military proved that it was all fake.
I have no problem believing that someone,maidan people or some foreign intelligence service is responsible for staging sniper shootings. Its just a matter of proving it. Then again that conversation between Ashton and Paet could be also fake.I dont see any lips moving :D Well see if there is any official response to this from EU.So far no western media reported on this,just Russian.
This has nothing to do with Crimea or Russia, but I guess it is still very relevant for the situation. EU has granted a total of about 11 billion euros:
European Bank for Reconstruction and Development provides 5 billions European Investment Bank provides up to 3 billions Directly from EUs budgets comes 1.6 billions in loans and 1.5 billions in grants
Furthermore EU is helping in several other ways, including, but not limited to: The trade-agreement, including a front-loading of investment if need be Some encouragement initiatives for investment Modernisation of the gas pipeline Acceleration of visa liberalisation Technical assistance on reforms source
This is an investment quite a bit beyond what you could have expected from EUs side. On the other hand, it sounds on the low side of what Ukraine needs. Ukraine still needs IMF and US to invest, but this is quite a sign of trust from EUs side.
On March 05 2014 21:53 R1CH wrote: For consideration, this video was posted by what appears to be a Russian based spam bot.
I am sure it has, it seems authentic enough.
In the end it doesn't really tell that much. That the Maidan people don't trust the old regime people around Timoshenko is nothing new. The part about the snipers really doesn't say anything except that it is still unclear who shot who.
Using provocateurs and shooting at your own people is well known tactics used by KGB and CIA for decades,and others have been doing that with some success Best known example is Markale market in Sarajevo when muslim forces deliberately shoot mortar rounds at their own people and blamed Serbian forces who were surrounding the city. This resulted in NATO bombing Serbian forces. After the war French military proved that it was all fake.
I have no problem believing that someone,maidan people or some foreign intelligence service is responsible for staging sniper shootings. Its just a matter of proving it. Then again that conversation between Ashton and Paet could be also fake.I dont see any lips moving :D Well see if there is any official response to this from EU.So far no western media reported on this,just Russian.
Estonian media has published the story as well (the red title is the same as my tweet :D) Link
No response from the foreign ministry yet, though.
FM Paet just responded that he hasn't yet seen the recording, but he did have a conversation with Ashton on the 25th of February after visiting Ukraine.
On March 05 2014 22:17 Imola wrote: Well at least it give us some non ukrainian or russian propoganda info on things in Kiev. It seems party of regions in parlament is indeed working and accepts new laws under extreme pressure.
On March 05 2014 22:33 radiatoren wrote: This has nothing to do with Crimea or Russia, but I guess it is still very relevant for the situation. EU has granted a total of about 11 billion euros:
European Bank for Reconstruction and Development provides 5 billions European Investment Bank provides up to 3 billions Directly from EUs budgets comes 1.6 billions in loans and 1.5 billions in grants
Furthermore EU is helping in several other ways, including, but not limited to: The trade-agreement, including a front-loading of investment if need be Some encouragement initiatives for investment Modernisation of the gas pipeline Acceleration of visa liberalisation Technical assistance on reforms source
This is an investment quite a bit beyond what you could have expected from EUs side. On the other hand, it sounds on the low side of what Ukraine needs. Ukraine still needs IMF and US to invest, but this is quite a sign of trust from EUs side.
Edit: Wrong currency, woops
It should be mentioned, that the financial aid is NOT without conditions. The EU wants the association treaty signed, even before the elections happen... And then the usual reformstuff blabla, the same as all these years. In fact, Ukraine could have gotten the same all those years, under the same conditions... This is pretty much a PR stunt, but nothing new...
On March 05 2014 21:53 R1CH wrote: For consideration, this video was posted by what appears to be a Russian based spam bot.
I am sure it has, it seems authentic enough.
In the end it doesn't really tell that much. That the Maidan people don't trust the old regime people around Timoshenko is nothing new. The part about the snipers really doesn't say anything except that it is still unclear who shot who.
Using provocateurs and shooting at your own people is well known tactics used by KGB and CIA for decades,and others have been doing that with some success Best known example is Markale market in Sarajevo when muslim forces deliberately shoot mortar rounds at their own people and blamed Serbian forces who were surrounding the city. This resulted in NATO bombing Serbian forces. After the war French military proved that it was all fake.
I have no problem believing that someone,maidan people or some foreign intelligence service is responsible for staging sniper shootings. Its just a matter of proving it. Then again that conversation between Ashton and Paet could be also fake.I dont see any lips moving :D Well see if there is any official response to this from EU.So far no western media reported on this,just Russian.
about that, can we take International Criminal Tribunal ruling over your interpretation, or at the very least, enjoy the irony of the situation, 'cause you know, we are discussing propaganda after all ^_^
Germany sees no substantial changes in the situation in Crimea that would avoid any sanctions against Moscow or permit a summit of G8 leaders in Sochi to go ahead in June, a spokesperson for Chancellor Angela Merkel says - via Reuters.
The German government continues to view the situation in Ukraine as alarming," spokesman Steffen Seibert says, describing the situation in Crimea as "unacceptable"
On March 05 2014 22:33 radiatoren wrote: This has nothing to do with Crimea or Russia, but I guess it is still very relevant for the situation. EU has granted a total of about 11 billion euros:
European Bank for Reconstruction and Development provides 5 billions European Investment Bank provides up to 3 billions Directly from EUs budgets comes 1.6 billions in loans and 1.5 billions in grants
Furthermore EU is helping in several other ways, including, but not limited to: The trade-agreement, including a front-loading of investment if need be Some encouragement initiatives for investment Modernisation of the gas pipeline Acceleration of visa liberalisation Technical assistance on reforms source
This is an investment quite a bit beyond what you could have expected from EUs side. On the other hand, it sounds on the low side of what Ukraine needs. Ukraine still needs IMF and US to invest, but this is quite a sign of trust from EUs side.
Edit: Wrong currency, woops
It should be mentioned, that the financial aid is NOT without conditions. The EU wants the association treaty signed, even before the elections happen... And then the usual reformstuff blabla, the same as all these years. In fact, Ukraine could have gotten the same all those years, under the same conditions... This is pretty much a PR stunt, but nothing new...
Almost all of it is loans and conditional loans at that, making it much more of an investment by EU rather than "help". Most of it has indeed been circulated in the news before. However, it is not necessarily the same as they could have gotten years before, if you read the details (attached memo). They have improved several of the EU budget offers a bit.
EPT
