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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
ok, so king obama really should have ruled harder
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On March 05 2014 05:26 snailz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 05:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 05 2014 04:58 snailz wrote:On March 05 2014 04:23 Sub40APM wrote:On March 05 2014 04:18 Maenander wrote:On March 05 2014 03:53 mahrgell wrote:On March 05 2014 03:46 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote:
I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals. I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much. And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true. But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have... The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts? The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs? The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact. Since Putin believes that the protesters were [a] trained by Western special forces and [b] drugged and manipulated by Western forces, if the entire protest was made up of peaceful Bhudists he would still find it threatening. And since he is building his Euroasian Union -- and has made it his stated goal to set up that Union is a counterpart to the EU for the ex-Soviet states -- its hard to imagine how Ukraine could continue to cooperate with both at the same time. That is what the last minute 15 billion dollar offer to Yanukovich was about. One way or another, Ukraine will be excluded by one block, and it will be painful. But better to be excluded from an economic block that is made up of 2 huge oil exporting economies that would infest Ukraine with their Dutch Disease rather than one of the biggest and richest groups in the world. Not to mention the fact that Europeans dont tolerate Nazis -- you hunted down Croatian war criminals after all -- which would also be beneficial to Ukraine. Russia tolerates far right and far left extremist in its elections -- hence the presence of the "Liberal Democrat" Fascist party and Communist party in every election where they do the useful work of creating the only opposition to Putin in the elections. what are you talking about and what does it have to do with nazis? As part of being admitted to the EU, you had to pass reforms that made it easier to find Croat war criminals (so any Nazis in Ukraine who committed crimes, or are planning to commit crimes would also face justice), and EU norms on justice, rule of law and democracy make it difficult for Nazi parties to have much influence. fair enough when you put it into context i guess, it just sounded very odd in one sentence when you combined war crimes in yugoslavia with nazis, but as we can all see now you were reffering to potentional nazi movement in ukraine and how turning to EU would benefit their society in the long run. also a note to you personally, since you seem like a reasonable enough man, and have demonstrated certain amount of knowledge in history at this thread before - a link - with updates on the aftermath of mentioned conflict. i for one am proud my country is willing to trial anyone suspected of war crimes, but since you used the words "EU hunted" i have a feeling you had something in mind which you still haven't catched up on, and i hope you find time to do so in the interest of fair discussion in the future. i am also glad this thread in general has at least partially once more moved away from doom scenarios and war mongering that seem to plague any discussions relating to international diplomacy, like the one we had at the start of Japan&China "conflict", before it all turned to ww3enthusiasts-convention.
Yes, I meant it in the sense that people accused of war crimes will be found and sent to appropriate authorities where they will be given their day in court -- and yes I realize that the two Croatian generals were found not guilty on appeal. So further integration with EU norms will minimize potential of the supposed genocide of Russian at the hands of the so called junta Nazis. You have to admit that the willingness of Croatia to look into war crimes is much higher in the 2000s than in the 1990s, as part of your own integration into EU norms.
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20:24: More than 1,000 demonstrators took the streets of Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, today, Reuters reports. They were carrying Ukrainian flags and chanting slogans such as "I am Russia, I don't need protection".
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On March 05 2014 05:31 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 05:26 snailz wrote:On March 05 2014 05:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 05 2014 04:58 snailz wrote:On March 05 2014 04:23 Sub40APM wrote:On March 05 2014 04:18 Maenander wrote:On March 05 2014 03:53 mahrgell wrote:On March 05 2014 03:46 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote:
I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals. I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much. And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true. But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have... The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts? The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs? The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact. Since Putin believes that the protesters were [a] trained by Western special forces and [b] drugged and manipulated by Western forces, if the entire protest was made up of peaceful Bhudists he would still find it threatening. And since he is building his Euroasian Union -- and has made it his stated goal to set up that Union is a counterpart to the EU for the ex-Soviet states -- its hard to imagine how Ukraine could continue to cooperate with both at the same time. That is what the last minute 15 billion dollar offer to Yanukovich was about. One way or another, Ukraine will be excluded by one block, and it will be painful. But better to be excluded from an economic block that is made up of 2 huge oil exporting economies that would infest Ukraine with their Dutch Disease rather than one of the biggest and richest groups in the world. Not to mention the fact that Europeans dont tolerate Nazis -- you hunted down Croatian war criminals after all -- which would also be beneficial to Ukraine. Russia tolerates far right and far left extremist in its elections -- hence the presence of the "Liberal Democrat" Fascist party and Communist party in every election where they do the useful work of creating the only opposition to Putin in the elections. what are you talking about and what does it have to do with nazis? As part of being admitted to the EU, you had to pass reforms that made it easier to find Croat war criminals (so any Nazis in Ukraine who committed crimes, or are planning to commit crimes would also face justice), and EU norms on justice, rule of law and democracy make it difficult for Nazi parties to have much influence. fair enough when you put it into context i guess, it just sounded very odd in one sentence when you combined war crimes in yugoslavia with nazis, but as we can all see now you were reffering to potentional nazi movement in ukraine and how turning to EU would benefit their society in the long run. also a note to you personally, since you seem like a reasonable enough man, and have demonstrated certain amount of knowledge in history at this thread before - a link - with updates on the aftermath of mentioned conflict. i for one am proud my country is willing to trial anyone suspected of war crimes, but since you used the words "EU hunted" i have a feeling you had something in mind which you still haven't catched up on, and i hope you find time to do so in the interest of fair discussion in the future. i am also glad this thread in general has at least partially once more moved away from doom scenarios and war mongering that seem to plague any discussions relating to international diplomacy, like the one we had at the start of Japan&China "conflict", before it all turned to ww3enthusiasts-convention. Yes, I meant it in the sense that people accused of war crimes will be found and sent to appropriate authorities where they will be given their day in court -- and yes I realize that the two Croatian generals were found not guilty on appeal. So further integration with EU norms will minimize potential of the supposed genocide of Russian at the hands of the so called junta Nazis. You have to admit that the willingness of Croatia to look into war crimes is much higher in the 2000s than in the 1990s, as part of your own integration into EU norms.
yes, this is very true when you look at the general population and the shift in public opinion, even bofore the acquittal. so your point stands on pretty solid fundations, and has relevance to well-being of all citizens of Ukraine, i just hope you weren't making it to mock those who for whatever reason keep blabing about junta nazi government in Ukraine ^_^
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On March 05 2014 05:38 snailz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 05:31 Sub40APM wrote:On March 05 2014 05:26 snailz wrote:On March 05 2014 05:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 05 2014 04:58 snailz wrote:On March 05 2014 04:23 Sub40APM wrote:On March 05 2014 04:18 Maenander wrote:On March 05 2014 03:53 mahrgell wrote:On March 05 2014 03:46 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote:
I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals. I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much. And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true. But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have... The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts? The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs? The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact. Since Putin believes that the protesters were [a] trained by Western special forces and [b] drugged and manipulated by Western forces, if the entire protest was made up of peaceful Bhudists he would still find it threatening. And since he is building his Euroasian Union -- and has made it his stated goal to set up that Union is a counterpart to the EU for the ex-Soviet states -- its hard to imagine how Ukraine could continue to cooperate with both at the same time. That is what the last minute 15 billion dollar offer to Yanukovich was about. One way or another, Ukraine will be excluded by one block, and it will be painful. But better to be excluded from an economic block that is made up of 2 huge oil exporting economies that would infest Ukraine with their Dutch Disease rather than one of the biggest and richest groups in the world. Not to mention the fact that Europeans dont tolerate Nazis -- you hunted down Croatian war criminals after all -- which would also be beneficial to Ukraine. Russia tolerates far right and far left extremist in its elections -- hence the presence of the "Liberal Democrat" Fascist party and Communist party in every election where they do the useful work of creating the only opposition to Putin in the elections. what are you talking about and what does it have to do with nazis? As part of being admitted to the EU, you had to pass reforms that made it easier to find Croat war criminals (so any Nazis in Ukraine who committed crimes, or are planning to commit crimes would also face justice), and EU norms on justice, rule of law and democracy make it difficult for Nazi parties to have much influence. fair enough when you put it into context i guess, it just sounded very odd in one sentence when you combined war crimes in yugoslavia with nazis, but as we can all see now you were reffering to potentional nazi movement in ukraine and how turning to EU would benefit their society in the long run. also a note to you personally, since you seem like a reasonable enough man, and have demonstrated certain amount of knowledge in history at this thread before - a link - with updates on the aftermath of mentioned conflict. i for one am proud my country is willing to trial anyone suspected of war crimes, but since you used the words "EU hunted" i have a feeling you had something in mind which you still haven't catched up on, and i hope you find time to do so in the interest of fair discussion in the future. i am also glad this thread in general has at least partially once more moved away from doom scenarios and war mongering that seem to plague any discussions relating to international diplomacy, like the one we had at the start of Japan&China "conflict", before it all turned to ww3enthusiasts-convention. Yes, I meant it in the sense that people accused of war crimes will be found and sent to appropriate authorities where they will be given their day in court -- and yes I realize that the two Croatian generals were found not guilty on appeal. So further integration with EU norms will minimize potential of the supposed genocide of Russian at the hands of the so called junta Nazis. You have to admit that the willingness of Croatia to look into war crimes is much higher in the 2000s than in the 1990s, as part of your own integration into EU norms. yes, this is very true when you look at the general population and the shift in public opinion, even bofore the acquittal. so your point stands on pretty solid fundations, and has relevance to well-being of all citizens of Ukraine, i just hope you weren't making it to mock those who for whatever reason keep blabing about junta nazi government in Ukraine ^_^ No. I dont think anyone is disputing the fact that the last elections Fascists did win 8% of the parliamentary vote or that they have the ministry of agriculture, environment in the current cabinet. But the way to fight them isnt to label everyone who opposed a venal and corrupt idiot as fascist and then invade an independent country with unmarked troops.
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Ruslana, the Ukrainian singer, Eurovision winner and Euromaidan activist received an award for the most courages woman on Earth.
http://news.liga.net/news/society/995170-ruslana_lyzhichko_priznana_samoy_smeloy_zhenshchinoy_mira.htm
To be noted, women from different countries of the world who demonstrated exceptional courage and bravery in the struggle for peace, justice and human rights become winners of this award.
Ruslana supported Ukrainian Maidan from day one. She was on the Maidan during the difficult days and repeatedly appealed to people there. She also appealed to European diplomats and politicians in Brussels.
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On March 05 2014 05:31 oneofthem wrote:
ok, so king obama really should have ruled harder
That was one option available to him that he didn't take. He shouldn't have done what he did since it hurt his credibility greatly. What should he have done? I dunno, not what he did.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 05 2014 05:44 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 05:31 oneofthem wrote:
ok, so king obama really should have ruled harder That was one option available to him that he didn't take. He shouldn't have done what he did since it hurt his credibility greatly. What should he have done? I dunno, not what he did.
i dont think russians would have cared either way. compared to russia-ukraine syria is far less important of a situation and it prob was not worth a gesture with political cap cost(american public largely disfavoring intervention), whereas a russian aggression is worth it. thoug with russia other different calculations apply.
the weakness of europe in unwilling to harm their lucrative ies with russian money is more of a factor
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On March 05 2014 03:44 Sub40APM wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 05 2014 03:29 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 03:19 Sub40APM wrote:On March 05 2014 03:16 zeo wrote:On March 05 2014 03:02 Sub40APM wrote:On March 05 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:On March 05 2014 02:19 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 02:07 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 01:07 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 01:02 Salazarz wrote:On March 05 2014 00:45 Asymmetric wrote:
[quote]
Achieve something? What, a return to the status que but with the Crimea having been annexed from the Ukraine?
The West's been trying for decades to include Russia in the decision making processes, making them members of the G8, the WTO and numerous other bilateral agreements between European countries.
The concept that Russia could be more easily dealt with by being inclusive with them has been a myth, It has achieved nothing. Russia is as authoritarian and belligerent has it has ever been. We give them an inch and they take a mile. They still brutally murdered Alexander Litvenko in London, they still launched cyber attacks on Estonian in 2007, they still actively fund and arm the Syrian state and are still blatantly willing to enter any neighbors borders with military force.
West should revert to treating Russia exactly the same way it treated Russia in the 1980's, which actually did work. There a rival, not a partner
Russia has its own interests, that WOULD align much better with interests of the EU, but only IF EU would actually open up to the idea of cooperating with its eastern neighbours more. To write off Russia as a 'rival' is pretty retarded; this isn't a game of Starcraft, there are no victory conditions to be achieved by fighting between countries, be it through military or economic means. Naive. What is retarded is cuddling up to a dictator and thinking they share your interests at heart. Putin does view us as rivals. That is all that matters. Nobody thinks he shares our interests, but Putin is not immortal and by allowing prosperous Russia, maybe one day they will actually become a democracy. While playing childish geopolitical games will achieve absolutely nothing on that front and leave Russia perpetually a powder keg. Many Russians will view that exactly as Putin's propaganda would put it, as imperialist West doing everything to keep them down. How that panned out in Germany after first world war ? If it acts like the Soviet Union, behaves diplomatically like the Soviet Union and wants to actively reclaim the landmass of the Soviet Union then it should be treated exactly like the Soviet Union. Don't be silly. Comparing Russia to the USSR would be like comparing modern Germany to the Germany from 1930s. People have extreme difficulty getting over the cold war. Why did Russian Special Forces have to surround Ukrainian Army in Crimea -- made up of Russian speakers -- to prevent the genocide of Russian race you and Putin claim was happening if the Ukrianian Army in Crimea wasnt accepting orders from Nazi-Fascist junta in Kiev ? Man, if only you got 10 cents every time you spammed a rant about nazi's you would have many cents. You called them Nazis, you photshopped Hitler on Maidain, you claimed Ukrainian Army isnt listening to Fascist Junta in Kiev, you claimed that racial extermination is part of the Ukrainian juntas program, you claimed that invasion of Crimea was to prevent genocide. So link it all together for me: If the Ukrainian Army isnt listening to the Kiev govenrment why did Russian special forces surround and threaten Ukrainan Army units -- units full of Crimea Russians, as the Ukrainian Army draws its soldier pools from the regions the units are based in -- and demanded they disarm? I called the people wearing nazi uniforms nazi's, Ukraine for Ukrainian's is a racial extermination plan by a part of the junta government which has so far been calling most of the shots. Here is your commentary earlier: But the people leading the junta right now are animals.
The junta controlling Kiev, moments after coming to power automatically started restricting human rights, taking away rights and restricting freedom of speech. Not only this, they pushed for a purge of everything to do with the history of Ukraine they deem undesirable, a kind of book burning, to destroy the culture of the Ukrainians that fought Ukrainian fascism. you don't want to live in the part of the country the neonazi's take over Agreed, everything that is happening in the Ukraine right now is solely the fault of EuroMaidan and the junta that came to power because of it. When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple. They are a cancer and Russia sending troops into Crimea is what happens when you come to power on the backs of fascists, the people of Ukraine wont stand for it. Since coming to power the junta has done nothing but openly humiliate the officials and servicemen, even demonize them. They can expect no proper help from the police or army. If the junta starts murdering people that don't share their ultra-nationalist views it is the responsibility of Russia and the EU to intervene and give the power back to the people.
There is no invasion of Crimea, it is a peacekeeping force.
If one side doesnt fight back when its being invaded doesnt make it less of an invasion.
Self defense units disarmed the military
lol. in Crimea because having armed troops that could at any time be threatened or forced to engage by the junta in Kiev would be retarded. You said that a
A tank could go from Russia all the way to Kiev in a straight line and fire on parliament and no one would lift a finger. There is a reason why the army of Ukraine hasn't left their barracks or done anything to prepare for a Russian 'invasion'
So why are Russian special forces threatening Ukrainian Troops?
I'm not sure how taking random quotes out of context proves whatever point you are making. People seem to think I am taking a pro-Russian stance when the only thing I am doing is being anti-junta. Yes of course I stand by what I said earlier, what is happening now in Ukraine is the direct result of Yanukovych stupidly going through with the agreement expecting the rioters in the street to uphold their end of the deal.
People are letting petty cold war propaganda and pathetic stereotypes cloud their judgment. Violent overthrow and hostile takeover of government was the worst thing that could have happened. It was clear from the start that democracy was the last thing on their minds while dealing with their political opponents first.
Having elections so soon after such polarizing events is stupid, what serious political program can you put forth in these conditions? Everyone knows things like economy or everyday life problems will take a back seat. The reason the orange revolution failed was because people were voted into power based on how much they dislike Russia or love the EU, instead of what they will really do once they get that power. Instead of deescalation and cool heads voting we get this, which is exactly why the moment they (the junta) got power they started provoking the east of the country.
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“Anyone spending any amount of time in Crimea at the moment will hear the words ‘Nazi’ and ‘fascist’ a lot,” writes the Guardian’s Shaun Walker (@shaunwalker7), and “Russian state television has gone out of its way to manufacture an image of the Kiev protests as ... a far-right movement backed by the west with the ultimate goal of destabilising Russia.”
“But perhaps the most disturbing thing about the Russian propaganda,” writes Shaun, “is that it is clear that many inside the Kremlin actually believe it”:
In December, a Russian government source assured the Guardian that the Kiev protests were the preserve of radical marginals, and that the rest of the city had no time at all for its goals.
On the ground in Crimea, meanwhile,
what is particularly odd is that the most vociferous defenders of Russian bases against supposed fascists appear to hold far-right views themselves.
Outside the Belbek airbase, an aggressive self-defence group said they were there to defend the base against “Kiev fascists”, but also railed against Europe, “full of repulsive gays and Muslims”.
“What you foreigners don’t get is that those people in Maidan, they are fascists,” said Alexander, a Simferopol resident drinking at a bar in the city on Monday night. “I mean, I am all for the superiority of the white race, and all that stuff, but I don’t like fascists.”
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On March 05 2014 05:52 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 05:44 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 05 2014 05:31 oneofthem wrote:
ok, so king obama really should have ruled harder That was one option available to him that he didn't take. He shouldn't have done what he did since it hurt his credibility greatly. What should he have done? I dunno, not what he did. i dont think russians would have cared either way. compared to russia-ukraine syria is far less important of a situation and it prob was not worth a gesture with political cap cost(american public largely disfavoring intervention), whereas a russian aggression is worth it. thoug with russia other different calculations apply. the weakness of europe in unwilling to harm their lucrative ies with russian money is more of a factor
I think it is a larger factor too but remember in the case of Libya Russia was very and very vocally opposed to the US/Europe intervention and Obama basically gave Moscow the finger by ignoring them and doing it anyway.
The US and Europe can talk tough about costs for Russia but over the last 15 years European and American governments and banks have happily helped Putin and his cronies hide their ill-gotten gains in bank accounts and through lavish property purchases on the Continent. The Russians think the West is a bunch of degenerate money-grubbers - like them! - who will do nothing that will threaten these lucrative ties as you said. If the West was serious they would start freezing Russian assets - worth literally tens of billions of dollars - sitting in Western banks and tied up in property in Western countries, the US specifically would strengthen and broaden the Magnitsky Act (which the Obama administration recently weakened enforcement of in a sop to the Russians, smart move there). The oligarchy ruling Russia has a large proportion of its wealth stored outside of Russia, we could cut that off if we were really serious but I don't think we are.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/russian-propaganda-ukrainian-rumours-anger-hate-crimea
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
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On March 05 2014 06:07 Sub40APM wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/russian-propaganda-ukrainian-rumours-anger-hate-crimeaShow nested quote +An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
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On March 05 2014 05:52 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 03:44 Sub40APM wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 05 2014 03:29 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 03:19 Sub40APM wrote:On March 05 2014 03:16 zeo wrote:On March 05 2014 03:02 Sub40APM wrote:On March 05 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:On March 05 2014 02:19 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 02:07 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 01:07 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 01:02 Salazarz wrote:On March 05 2014 00:45 Asymmetric wrote:
[quote]
Achieve something? What, a return to the status que but with the Crimea having been annexed from the Ukraine?
The West's been trying for decades to include Russia in the decision making processes, making them members of the G8, the WTO and numerous other bilateral agreements between European countries.
The concept that Russia could be more easily dealt with by being inclusive with them has been a myth, It has achieved nothing. Russia is as authoritarian and belligerent has it has ever been. We give them an inch and they take a mile. They still brutally murdered Alexander Litvenko in London, they still launched cyber attacks on Estonian in 2007, they still actively fund and arm the Syrian state and are still blatantly willing to enter any neighbors borders with military force.
West should revert to treating Russia exactly the same way it treated Russia in the 1980's, which actually did work. There a rival, not a partner
Russia has its own interests, that WOULD align much better with interests of the EU, but only IF EU would actually open up to the idea of cooperating with its eastern neighbours more. To write off Russia as a 'rival' is pretty retarded; this isn't a game of Starcraft, there are no victory conditions to be achieved by fighting between countries, be it through military or economic means. Naive. What is retarded is cuddling up to a dictator and thinking they share your interests at heart. Putin does view us as rivals. That is all that matters. Nobody thinks he shares our interests, but Putin is not immortal and by allowing prosperous Russia, maybe one day they will actually become a democracy. While playing childish geopolitical games will achieve absolutely nothing on that front and leave Russia perpetually a powder keg. Many Russians will view that exactly as Putin's propaganda would put it, as imperialist West doing everything to keep them down. How that panned out in Germany after first world war ? If it acts like the Soviet Union, behaves diplomatically like the Soviet Union and wants to actively reclaim the landmass of the Soviet Union then it should be treated exactly like the Soviet Union. Don't be silly. Comparing Russia to the USSR would be like comparing modern Germany to the Germany from 1930s. People have extreme difficulty getting over the cold war. Why did Russian Special Forces have to surround Ukrainian Army in Crimea -- made up of Russian speakers -- to prevent the genocide of Russian race you and Putin claim was happening if the Ukrianian Army in Crimea wasnt accepting orders from Nazi-Fascist junta in Kiev ? Man, if only you got 10 cents every time you spammed a rant about nazi's you would have many cents. You called them Nazis, you photshopped Hitler on Maidain, you claimed Ukrainian Army isnt listening to Fascist Junta in Kiev, you claimed that racial extermination is part of the Ukrainian juntas program, you claimed that invasion of Crimea was to prevent genocide. So link it all together for me: If the Ukrainian Army isnt listening to the Kiev govenrment why did Russian special forces surround and threaten Ukrainan Army units -- units full of Crimea Russians, as the Ukrainian Army draws its soldier pools from the regions the units are based in -- and demanded they disarm? I called the people wearing nazi uniforms nazi's, Ukraine for Ukrainian's is a racial extermination plan by a part of the junta government which has so far been calling most of the shots. Here is your commentary earlier: But the people leading the junta right now are animals.
The junta controlling Kiev, moments after coming to power automatically started restricting human rights, taking away rights and restricting freedom of speech. Not only this, they pushed for a purge of everything to do with the history of Ukraine they deem undesirable, a kind of book burning, to destroy the culture of the Ukrainians that fought Ukrainian fascism. you don't want to live in the part of the country the neonazi's take over Agreed, everything that is happening in the Ukraine right now is solely the fault of EuroMaidan and the junta that came to power because of it. When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple. They are a cancer and Russia sending troops into Crimea is what happens when you come to power on the backs of fascists, the people of Ukraine wont stand for it. Since coming to power the junta has done nothing but openly humiliate the officials and servicemen, even demonize them. They can expect no proper help from the police or army. If the junta starts murdering people that don't share their ultra-nationalist views it is the responsibility of Russia and the EU to intervene and give the power back to the people.
There is no invasion of Crimea, it is a peacekeeping force.
If one side doesnt fight back when its being invaded doesnt make it less of an invasion.
Self defense units disarmed the military
lol. in Crimea because having armed troops that could at any time be threatened or forced to engage by the junta in Kiev would be retarded. You said that a
A tank could go from Russia all the way to Kiev in a straight line and fire on parliament and no one would lift a finger. There is a reason why the army of Ukraine hasn't left their barracks or done anything to prepare for a Russian 'invasion'
So why are Russian special forces threatening Ukrainian Troops? I'm not sure how taking random quotes out of context proves whatever point you are making. People seem to think I am taking a pro-Russian stance when the only thing I am doing is being anti-junta. Yes of course I stand by what I said earlier, what is happening now in Ukraine is the direct result of Yanukovych stupidly going through with the agreement expecting the rioters in the street to uphold their end of the deal. People are letting petty cold war propaganda and pathetic stereotypes cloud their judgment. Violent overthrow and hostile takeover of government was the worst thing that could have happened. It was clear from the start that democracy was the last thing on their minds while dealing with their political opponents first. Having elections so soon after such polarizing events is stupid, what serious political program can you put forth in these conditions? Everyone knows things like economy or everyday life problems will take a back seat. The reason the orange revolution failed was because people were voted into power based on how much they dislike Russia or love the EU, instead of what they will really do once they get that power. Instead of deescalation and cool heads voting we get this, which is exactly why the moment they (the junta) got power they started provoking the east of the country.
Just like Putin, you've lost it. Your understanding of the events is so out of touch with reality it's fascinating. You either read to much propaganda or just too biased to develop any understanding of the events that might be in contradiction to the conclusions you've already made. But you are quite good at rationalizing the current events to make them fit into your worldview, I should give you that. Chopping off unfitting facts or twisting them beyond recognition to fit into the bigger picture. The problem is that you are unable to change your worldview one bit. And by that worldview you found the Euromaidan guilty of all the sins as soon as it aligned itself with the Evil West. The rest was just the matter of framing the suspect.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 05 2014 06:11 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 06:07 Sub40APM wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/russian-propaganda-ukrainian-rumours-anger-hate-crimeaAn insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same." You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
Some actually believe in this.
On March 05 2014 06:14 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 06:11 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 05 2014 06:07 Sub40APM wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/russian-propaganda-ukrainian-rumours-anger-hate-crimeaAn insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same." You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone. Having represented a number of people from different cultures, I feel like Russians are the best liars.
Nah, Russians are the worst liars there are. They actually believe in BS they tell most of the time. Like mine position on everyone lying.
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On March 05 2014 06:11 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 06:07 Sub40APM wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/russian-propaganda-ukrainian-rumours-anger-hate-crimeaAn insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same." You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
Having represented a number of people from different cultures, I feel like Russians are the best liars.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
Dunno if anyone ever brought this up. When the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine ended up as the third largest nuclear power with 1900 Soviet warheads. In exchange for a guarantee of Russia and everyone respecting their borders, they gave the nukes to Russia. Russia has pretty much broken that treaty...
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Actually believing in your lies makes for the best lies because they're not really lies if you really really believe them.
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On March 05 2014 06:14 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 06:11 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 05 2014 06:07 Sub40APM wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/russian-propaganda-ukrainian-rumours-anger-hate-crimeaAn insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same." You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone. Some actually believe in this. Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 06:14 xDaunt wrote:On March 05 2014 06:11 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 05 2014 06:07 Sub40APM wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/russian-propaganda-ukrainian-rumours-anger-hate-crimeaAn insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same." You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone. Having represented a number of people from different cultures, I feel like Russians are the best liars. Nah, Russians are the worst liars there are. They actually believe in BS they tell most of the time. Like mine position on everyone lying.
Probably a large number. If you think about a fact like this: "Polls conducted in 2010 suggested that at least one quarter of adult Americans said that they doubted Obama's U.S. birth,while a May 2011 Gallup poll found that 13% of American adults (23% of Republicans) continued to express such doubts." in a country like America where access to free media is much broader than in Russia. Why wouldnt you be surprised to find a large number of Russians who for the last 3 months have all news announce that fascist-nazis are taking over power to believe it.
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EPT
