On March 05 2014 03:07 Sub40APM wrote: Let me explain it to you in zeo terms: Nazi Fascist Junta overthrew Democratically and beloved President and began racial extermination in Crimea, where Ukrainian army -- full of soldiers who are from Crimea and are mostly Russian -- was going to be the lead vehicle for racial hate and extermination so Russians had no choice and to invade the one place in Ukraine where Fascist Nazism is the strongest, Crimea, and set up a quisling regime and unmarked troops. Also, everything is the Western puppet masters fault for imposing Nazi Fascist Junta.
As reluctant as I am to say so, that... is actually a fairly accurate summary of Zeo's contribution during the entire time he has been posting to the thread.
Maybe, but it doesn't contribute to the discussion at all and he's getting annoying tbh.
Propaganda vs. Counter-propaganda. I don't think zeo realise that he is causing people to take a more anti-russian stance because his word-use is so inflamatory. In my opinion constructive discussion is best facilitated by a more balanced rhetoric like most of the germans in this thread, but if there is an untenable position getting proposed, it is important to point it out as to avoid others falling for the propaganda.
Edit: Typos/grammar
Well, while zeo has 'rare' (on TL) opinion, or however you wanna call it, and defends it with drastics words, Sub40apms repeat of the same bullshit is just getting massively annoying... (he has some useful content post, but every second post is the same nazi fascist blabla racewar story that he tries to imitate zeo on) I welcome even extreme opinions in a discussion, and may it be zeo, who has a massive pro Russian point of view, or some US hawks here on this forum, telling us, that carriers solve all problems... I surely don't and won't agree with them, but hey, this is an open discussion board... But again and again posting this nonsense by trying to be comical about repeating (and misusing) opponents lines is just blegh...
It's massively annoying because zeo has taken a position you are in agreement with to an important extent and he's embarrassed himself again and again by insisting that the smallest Maidan group runs the Maidan movement and that Nazis are running wild over the Ukraine because some Russian flunky said so and here's a photoshop that provides proof.
I'm sure it is very annoying when the credibility of someone who holds a position similar to yours is shot and you would prefer his perfidy simply be dropped and people act like it didn't happen, but sorry, that isn't the way it works. If he is going to keep saying the same false things he's said all thread, people are going to criticize him for it and bring up how his remarks now are no different from his remarks then that are embarrassing for him - if he had any capacity to be embarrassed that is.
On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote: I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals.
I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much.
And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true.
But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have...
The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts?
The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs?
The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact.
Your logic is like: when a bully hits me guess it was my own fault for standing in his way.
Don't get me wrong, I think the peaceful protesters can be proud of what they achieved.
I also think the time was ripe to get rid of Yanukovich, not even Putin supports him, because he knows Yanukovich lost all sympathies.
But the transition could have gone much more smoothly and the western diplomats failed to do their job facilitating it. Also you may not like it, but the Russian interests and the interests of the pro-Russian factions in your country cannot just be brushed aside, there needs to be balance.
On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote: I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals.
I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much.
And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true.
But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have...
The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts?
The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs?
The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact.
Since Putin believes that the protesters were [a] trained by Western special forces and [b] drugged and manipulated by Western forces, if the entire protest was made up of peaceful Bhudists he would still find it threatening. And since he is building his Euroasian Union -- and has made it his stated goal to set up that Union is a counterpart to the EU for the ex-Soviet states -- its hard to imagine how Ukraine could continue to cooperate with both at the same time. That is what the last minute 15 billion dollar offer to Yanukovich was about. One way or another, Ukraine will be excluded by one block, and it will be painful. But better to be excluded from an economic block that is made up of 2 huge oil exporting economies that would infest Ukraine with their Dutch Disease rather than one of the biggest and richest groups in the world. Not to mention the fact that Europeans dont tolerate Nazis -- you hunted down Croatian war criminals after all -- which would also be beneficial to Ukraine. Russia tolerates far right and far left extremist in its elections -- hence the presence of the "Liberal Democrat" Fascist party and Communist party in every election where they do the useful work of creating the only opposition to Putin in the elections.
what are you talking about and what does it have to do with nazis?
On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote: I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals.
I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much.
And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true.
But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have...
The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts?
The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs?
The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact.
Your logic is like: when a bully hits me guess it was my own fault for standing in his way.
But the transition could have gone much more smoothly and the western diplomats failed to do their job facilitating it. Also you may not like it, but the Russian interests and the interests of the pro-Russian factions in your country cannot just be brushed aside, there needs to be balance.
Hard to argue with this assessment. Its also hard to see why the Russians wouldnt want to see further reforms in Ukraine: richer neighbors mean more trade, and no more stealing of Russian gas or Yanukovich-esque exploiting of Russian paranoia against NATO to rob the Russian treasury they surely can use at home too.
On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote: I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals.
I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much.
And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true.
But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have...
The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts?
The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs?
The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact.
Since Putin believes that the protesters were [a] trained by Western special forces and [b] drugged and manipulated by Western forces, if the entire protest was made up of peaceful Bhudists he would still find it threatening. And since he is building his Euroasian Union -- and has made it his stated goal to set up that Union is a counterpart to the EU for the ex-Soviet states -- its hard to imagine how Ukraine could continue to cooperate with both at the same time. That is what the last minute 15 billion dollar offer to Yanukovich was about. One way or another, Ukraine will be excluded by one block, and it will be painful. But better to be excluded from an economic block that is made up of 2 huge oil exporting economies that would infest Ukraine with their Dutch Disease rather than one of the biggest and richest groups in the world. Not to mention the fact that Europeans dont tolerate Nazis -- you hunted down Croatian war criminals after all -- which would also be beneficial to Ukraine. Russia tolerates far right and far left extremist in its elections -- hence the presence of the "Liberal Democrat" Fascist party and Communist party in every election where they do the useful work of creating the only opposition to Putin in the elections.
what are you talking about and what does it have to do with nazis?
As part of being admitted to the EU, you had to pass reforms that made it easier to find Croat war criminals (so any Nazis in Ukraine who committed crimes, or are planning to commit crimes would also face justice), and EU norms on justice, rule of law and democracy make it difficult for Nazi parties to have much influence.
On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote: I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals.
I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much.
And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true.
But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have...
The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts?
The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs?
The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact.
Your logic is like: when a bully hits me guess it was my own fault for standing in his way.
But the transition could have gone much more smoothly and the western diplomats failed to do their job facilitating it. Also you may not like it, but the Russian interests and the interests of the pro-Russian factions in your country cannot just be brushed aside, there needs to be balance.
So now because some internal processes could have been done "smoother" neigbouring countries can invade and annex territories?
On March 05 2014 05:01 Cheerio wrote: Interview with "unidentified" soldier who reluctantly confirmed that they are Russians. Kerch. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Z8ymyhx8A#t=160
Does he also say that the russian soldiers are there to protect them from german nazis? Edit - i am asking because i read the translation on the youtube's link... but i am not sure if i should believe it... because it really sounds too way out of touch.
I think he means that the weak (in his view) American response to Benghazi was the start of a trend of American weakness that culminated in the fiasco of red lines over Syria which convinced Putin he could do this and Obama wouldn't do anything actually serious to stop him. He could have just said Obama is a dithering idiot and it would have had the virtues of being not only true but also easier to understand.
Update: The Pentagon tells Luis Martinez of ABC News that the United States had been notified of the test, which was planned ahead of the recent and current unrest in Ukraine.
On March 05 2014 05:01 Cheerio wrote: Interview with "unidentified" soldier who reluctantly confirmed that they are Russians. Kerch. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Z8ymyhx8A#t=160
Does he also say that the russian soldiers are there to protect them from german nazis? Edit - i am asking because i read the translation on the youtube's link... but i am not sure if i should believe it... because it really sounds too way out of touch.
he says they are there to defend against terrorist acts. the reporter asks him what terror acts and the soldiers answers 'turn on your tv' then the reporters ask him why else are you here 'we are here to prevent disorder' 'has there been any disorder so far?' 'no' 'how long will you be here for long?' 'we dont have to tell you something' 'we arent obliged to tell you anything?' Then an old man comes up 'what chanel is this? Ukrainian? go to bendera that you support, the fascists you support' 'are there any fascists here? if the soldiers werent here the fascists would be' 'how do you have this information? 'well, i live here' the reporter goes 'do you have any proof that the fascists would be here?' 'because Germans are fascists' 'Press, fuck, everywhere press' 'what do you have against hte press? ' 'the press is full of lies, and change everything. youll show everything the reverse of here' 'but we are showing this live, everything you said will be unedited' 'turn on russian channels to learn the truth'
old guy: 'everything is peaceful here.' reporter: 'it wasnt peaceful before?' old guy: 'yes, it was peaceful before to. But what if the Germans come?' reporter: "what about the russian claims that 100,000 crimeans have fled?' old guy : "well...that...something has to be done' old guy: "what party are you from?" reporter: "we arent from any" old guy: "impossible" at the end they start all laughing at the banality of it when the reporter asks 'what about the refugees, have you seen them?' 'hmm, yes, but at night. They all flee at night. come here at night time'
ye if we bombed the fuck out og some arabs the russians would be too scared to do anything to its lil bro/serf. it is how things work in 6th grade aftr all
On March 05 2014 05:16 oneofthem wrote: ye if we bombed the fuck out og some arabs the russians would be too scared to do anything to its lil bro/serf. it is how things work in 6th grade aftr all
That's stupid.
Obama said if Syria used chemical weapons we'd bomb it, they did, Obama said he was really gonna do it and made everyone think he was gonna do it then he folded. You don't do things like that if you want your country to be taken seriously by anyone.
iirc obama made a speech trying to convince congress etc to bomb syria but nop not on our watch king obama. by this narrative anything that impeded king obama's iron will was at fault, so the clusterfuck congressional dysfunction chalks up another trophy?
On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote: I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals.
I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much.
And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true.
But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have...
The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts?
The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs?
The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact.
Since Putin believes that the protesters were [a] trained by Western special forces and [b] drugged and manipulated by Western forces, if the entire protest was made up of peaceful Bhudists he would still find it threatening. And since he is building his Euroasian Union -- and has made it his stated goal to set up that Union is a counterpart to the EU for the ex-Soviet states -- its hard to imagine how Ukraine could continue to cooperate with both at the same time. That is what the last minute 15 billion dollar offer to Yanukovich was about. One way or another, Ukraine will be excluded by one block, and it will be painful. But better to be excluded from an economic block that is made up of 2 huge oil exporting economies that would infest Ukraine with their Dutch Disease rather than one of the biggest and richest groups in the world. Not to mention the fact that Europeans dont tolerate Nazis -- you hunted down Croatian war criminals after all -- which would also be beneficial to Ukraine. Russia tolerates far right and far left extremist in its elections -- hence the presence of the "Liberal Democrat" Fascist party and Communist party in every election where they do the useful work of creating the only opposition to Putin in the elections.
what are you talking about and what does it have to do with nazis?
As part of being admitted to the EU, you had to pass reforms that made it easier to find Croat war criminals (so any Nazis in Ukraine who committed crimes, or are planning to commit crimes would also face justice), and EU norms on justice, rule of law and democracy make it difficult for Nazi parties to have much influence.
fair enough when you put it into context i guess, it just sounded very odd in one sentence when you combined war crimes in yugoslavia with nazis, but as we can all see now you were reffering to potentional nazi movement in ukraine and how turning to EU would benefit their society in the long run. also a note to you personally, since you seem like a reasonable enough man, and have demonstrated certain amount of knowledge in history at this thread before - a link - with updates on the aftermath of mentioned conflict. i for one am proud my country is willing to trial anyone suspected of war crimes, but since you used the words "EU hunted" i have a feeling you had something in mind which you still haven't catched up on, and i hope you find time to do so in the interest of fair discussion in the future.
i am also glad this thread has at least partially once more moved away from doom scenarios and war mongering that seem to plague any discussions relating to international diplomacy, like the one we had at the start of Japan&China "conflict", before it all turned to ww3enthusiasts-convention.
On March 05 2014 05:23 oneofthem wrote: iirc obama made a speech trying to convince congress etc to bomb syria but nop not on our watch king obama. by this narrative anything that impeded king obama's iron will was at fault, so the clusterfuck congressional dysfunction chalks up another trophy?
That was only after about a week of members of both parties freaking out demanding Obama get permission from them since he had already given the finger to the War Powers Act to bomb Libya. Obama insisted he could go bomb Syria without even consulting them but then, again, folded.
The point is if you're going to make these monumental pronouncements of your own power and freedom of action you probably should not have made them if you're going to fold, or don't fold. People don't you take seriously anymore and since then Russia certainly hasn't.
EPT
