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On March 05 2014 03:53 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 03:46 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote:
I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals. I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much. And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true. But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have...
The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts?
The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs?
The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact.
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On March 05 2014 03:13 mahrgell wrote:
The nobel prize committee in Oslo confirmed, that Putin has been nominated for peace nobel prize 2014.
(source Spiegel.de, probably also found in english elsewhere)
Stalin and Hitler were nominated as well. So not really surprising.
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On March 05 2014 04:18 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 03:53 mahrgell wrote:On March 05 2014 03:46 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote:
I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals. I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much. And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true. But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have... The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts? The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs? The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact.
Since Putin believes that the protesters were [a] trained by Western special forces and [b] drugged and manipulated by Western forces, if the entire protest was made up of peaceful Bhudists he would still find it threatening. And since he is building his Euroasian Union -- and has made it his stated goal to set up that Union is a counterpart to the EU for the ex-Soviet states -- its hard to imagine how Ukraine could continue to cooperate with both at the same time. That is what the last minute 15 billion dollar offer to Yanukovich was about. One way or another, Ukraine will be excluded by one block, and it will be painful. But better to be excluded from an economic block that is made up of 2 huge oil exporting economies that would infest Ukraine with their Dutch Disease rather than one of the biggest and richest groups in the world. Not to mention the fact that Europeans dont tolerate Nazis -- you hunted down Croatian war criminals after all -- which would also be beneficial to Ukraine.
Russia tolerates far right and far left extremist in its elections -- hence the presence of the "Liberal Democrat" Fascist party and Communist party in every election where they do the useful work of creating the only opposition to Putin in the elections.
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On March 05 2014 04:18 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 03:53 mahrgell wrote:On March 05 2014 03:46 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote:
I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals. I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much. And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true. But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have... The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts? The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs? The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact.
Oh, I certainly agree on all points here with you.
In fact, I still believe, that the EU was hoping that the agreement between Yanokovich and the opposition would hold... But then the Maiden presented them facts, which were certainly not what Europe was wishing for...
Guess I get jumped now again with ' but Yanukovich fled the country yadayada'... Gosh then play the blame game for a few more weeks... Seriously... You reelected that idiot into power (and the whole world confirmed the elections as fair) after getting rid of him with your first revolution, and then you can't wait for another week or month? Awesome...
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On March 05 2014 04:23 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 04:18 Maenander wrote:On March 05 2014 03:53 mahrgell wrote:On March 05 2014 03:46 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote:
I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals. I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much. And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true. But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have... The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts? The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs? The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact. Oh, I certainly agree on all points here with you. In fact, I still believe, that the EU was hoping that the agreement between Yanokovich and the opposition would hold... But then the Maiden presented them facts, which were certainly not what Europe was wishing for... Guess I get jumped now again with ' but Yanukovich fled the country yadayada'... Gosh then play the blame game for a few more weeks... Seriously... You reelected that idiot into power (and the whole world confirmed the elections as fair) after getting rid of him with your first revolution, and then you can't wait for another week or month? Awesome... Has it occurred to you that perhaps Yanukovich really is an idiot? He could have (a) avoided the whole crisis in November had he put the 'EU or Russia' choice to a vote. (b) avoided the escalation of the crisis if he reacted to the initial protesters the way he reacted to criticism of arrest of Timoshenko, by letting them stand around and freeze while the rest of the country moves on (c) avoided further violence by not ordering Berkut to retake Maidan (d) not fled the country to Russia but instead left to the safety of either Donestk or Crimea?
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On March 05 2014 03:53 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 03:46 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote:
I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals. I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much. And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true. But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have...
Actually we do, I'm quite proud of it. Just like many people around the world also are.
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Uh, i agree on him being an idiot... Does this mean, now everyone is allowed to be an idiot?
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On March 05 2014 04:30 mahrgell wrote:
Uh, i agree on him being an idiot... Does this mean, now everyone is allowed to be an idiot?
No, but to expect a vast popular movement to engage in sophisticated political calculations seems...un realistic. Unless you are Russian and believe that the entire thing is controlled by super powerful Western spy agents and all the Ukrainians protesting are just a combo of Nazis and mindless fools.
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No but I expect a vast popular movement to respect it's leaders and it's parliament, and those to actually be able to do sophisticated political calculations...
You can chose at which part the Ukrainians failed...
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On March 05 2014 04:18 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 03:53 mahrgell wrote:On March 05 2014 03:46 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote:
I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals. I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much. And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true. But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have... The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts? The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs? The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact.
Your logic is like: when a bully hits me guess it was my own fault for standing in his way.
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On March 05 2014 04:36 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 04:18 Maenander wrote:On March 05 2014 03:53 mahrgell wrote:On March 05 2014 03:46 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 23:03 plgElwood wrote:
I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals. I disagree. He is like an alcoholic who is having a problem but refuses to acknowledge it. Pretending everything is ok and talking about the symptoms won't solve much. And it is people like you that make it easy for him to get the booze... But we discussed this 150 pages ago... Trying to get everything, and as quick as possible, certainly has put a lot of fuel in the whole thing. But let's pretend, that Putin is the only evil one, Euromaiden did everything right and correct, and the West has now to save Ukraines asses. Hint: Neither of the three is true. But no point argueing here... I posted my opinion on that already back on the day when Yanukovich was impeached... Getting rid of him was certainly a step forward... The way it was done was an invitation for Russia for what happened afterwards... And the Anti-Russia behavior shown afterwards, even as it is nowhere nearly as bad as depicted by Russian media, did nothing to solve Ukraines problems. Congrats... Awesome revolution you have... The European diplomatic efforts were shockingly inept though. Don't they have intelligence services to tell them that a significant participation of ultranationalistic groups in the "revolution" would alert the Russian minority and open the door for Russian propaganda efforts? The EU should have tied any future and current support for the opposition to guarantees for the Russian minority and for the autonomy of Crimea and to the exclusion of fascist or racist elements from the process and from a new government. That would have taken the wind out of some of Putin's sails. Also they should have tried to work more closely with Russia. Are they diplomats or amateurs? The chances for a stable and prosperous Ukraine, which in my humble opinion would benefit both Russia and the EU btw, are much higher if the (economical and political) relations to both Russia and the EU are intact. Your logic is like: when a bully hits me guess it was my own fault for standing in his way.
No: My logic is: I do not walk through the darkest streets of the slum at midnight, when it takes me only 3 minutes longer to get home along the main street
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On March 05 2014 04:29 Cheerio wrote:
Actually we do, I'm quite proud of it. Just like many people around the world also are.
i have one small question for you, what according to you did change after that revolution, aren't the same people in the parlament that were before?
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On March 05 2014 04:36 mahrgell wrote:
No but I expect a vast popular movement to respect it's leaders and it's parliament, and those to actually be able to do sophisticated political calculations...
You can chose at which part the Ukrainians failed...
Why? By definition large popular movements are not easy to control. Of course it would have minimized justifications for Russia invasion if they just kept to the 21 agreement but since Russia didnt sign it and Russia invaded Crimea -- the last place where an anti-Russian pogrom could have happened even if it was even remotely possible to happen -- it seems pretty clear that any loss of Yanukovich power would have been unacceptable to Putin.
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Spiegel Online had for a couple of minutes the headline "Russia fires intercontinental rocket". They added the important "test" shortly after but thats not funny at all.
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Ukrainian navy ship Slavutych was assaulted but the crew fought back. Ukrainian Defence Ministry said.
"Unidentified armed people on a tug-boat approached the ship and attempted a boarding operation"
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
And the funniest thing about this all is that Yanukovich was not even really pro-Russian, he just knew how to play to get all the moneys. If this involved heating whole country up, whatever. Question is: did Kremlin realize that Yanukovich did not really play for them, not just used it as source of profit.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26442381
The Russian military says it has test-fired an intercontinental ballistic missile as tension continues over Ukraine's Crimea region.
A Topol RS-12M missile was launched from Russia's Kapustin Yar test range near the Caspian Sea to the Sary Shagan range in Kazakhstan, it said.
The nuclear-capable missile reached its target successfully, it said.
News of the test came after the US accused Russian forces of an "act of aggression" in Crimea.
but
Update: The Pentagon tells Luis Martinez of ABC News that the United States had been notified of the test, which was planned ahead of the recent and current unrest in Ukraine.
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On March 05 2014 04:46 lolfail9001 wrote:
And the funniest thing about this all is that Yanukovich was not even really pro-Russian, he just knew how to play to get all the moneys. If this involved heating whole country up, whatever. Question is: did Kremlin realize that Yanukovich did not really play for them, not just used it as source of profit.
Yes, he has been a bad investment for Kremlin now 2 times in a row, no wonder he is hanging out in Rostov and not in Moscow.
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lol.
Sen. Lindsey @GrahamBlog says Russian intervention in Ukraine "started with Benghazi"
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EPT
