|
|
In remarks to reporters, Obama ridiculed Putin's reason for sending the Russian military into the Crimea region of southern Ukraine. Putin said the move was aimed at protecting Russian nationals but Obama calls the incursion a violation of international law.
"President Putin seems to have a different set of lawyers making a different set of interpretations," Obama said. "But I don't think that's fooling anybody."
Ironic coming from the US but it's true.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/us-ukraine-crisis-obama-idUSBREA231MX20140304
|
On March 05 2014 02:19 mcc wrote:
And I still see no examples of Russia invading some other country ?
Chechnya.
|
On March 05 2014 02:23 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:19 mcc wrote:
And I still see no examples of Russia invading some other country ? Chechnya.
Chechnya is now an independent country?
|
On March 05 2014 02:23 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:19 mcc wrote:
And I still see no examples of Russia invading some other country ? Chechnya.
Can you really argue that Russian intervention in Chechnya was not necessary? It was a failed state sending armed raids over the border, kidnapping civilians, etc. No country on Earth would endure such a neighbour for long before taking decisive action to safeguard itself.
|
On March 05 2014 02:23 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:19 mcc wrote:
And I still see no examples of Russia invading some other country ? Chechnya.
...but but... that was to fight terrorism you know? fighting terrorism with airforce before it was cool and killing those bad bad terorists before they're old enough to fight.
|
Soviet Union empire would collapse no matter what. It was long term impossible to maintain without going full North Korea route, which is not possible on such a scale.I am not saying that they appease USSR, I said their tactic did not prevent USSR from doing exactly what you are claiming it will prevent Russia from doing.
And I still see no examples of Russia invading some other country ?
Where did I make claims about anything to do with preventing Russia from doing something? I don't think Russia will back down from Crimea and I think Russia should be punished by every available action open to the west short of actual direct warfare.
The Soviet Union was defeated because it was isolated, precisely because it was denied access to trade and international institutions. It was surrounded by NATO and China, both of which were passively hostile towards it.
|
On March 05 2014 02:25 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:23 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 02:19 mcc wrote:
And I still see no examples of Russia invading some other country ? Chechnya. Chechnya is now an independent country?
Not anymore...
|
On March 05 2014 02:25 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:23 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 02:19 mcc wrote:
And I still see no examples of Russia invading some other country ? Chechnya. Can you really argue that Russian intervention in Chechnya was not necessary? It was a failed state sending armed raids over the border, kidnapping civilians, etc. No country on Earth would endure such a neighbour for long before taking decisive action to safeguard itself.
They annexed it.
|
On March 05 2014 02:16 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:07 mahrgell wrote:
And how are plans to build an Eurasian Union anything that must be opposed? There are quite a tons of economical unions (hey,,, guess what the EU is?), why on earth should Russia not be allowed trying to forge their own one?
Hey, if Kazachstan thinks, that Russia is the best deal for them.. have fun. If the Ukraine thinks, they can gain more from Russia then from the EU, why stop them? Since 2004 the EU has followed an aggressive anti-Russian course in the Ukraine... And when you corner the Russian bear, it was a matter of time, until it snaps... And while the Maiden protests surely have their justification,with the way things were done, it was obvious, that when paying no respect at all to Russian (and Eastern Ukrainian) interests, not much good will come from it.
This should in no way defend, what Russia is doing right now... But then again, it comes as no surprise, considering the western behavior pretty much provoked it.
And not sure, where you are getting your information from but... The US thinks, that Merkel thinks, that Putin is nuts... The statement has been denied by all German sources, and Germany is continuing to look for a peaceful solution, trying to negotiate, before trading facts with sanctions etc.
Because we should actively oppose a dictator trying to re-establish an eastern hegemony empire on our doorstep that has no respect for other nations sovereignty? I'm sorry if that is to black and white for you.
I am pretty sure that Putin was voted into office and also pretty sure that unfortunately he would be voted in even in completely not manipulated elections. But why does it matter if it is a dictator or not. If he is not violently forcing countries into that union, why is that our business. Unless we are of course in business of violently deposing all dictators, but that would not be smart and West is definitely not against dictators if they are useful.
And if we are really worried about countries that do not respect sovereignty of other nations, good luck fighting with half of the globe including US and UK.
|
On March 05 2014 02:23 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:19 mcc wrote:
And I still see no examples of Russia invading some other country ? Chechnya.
Chechnya was not independent country. Please try again.
On March 05 2014 02:29 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:25 Alzadar wrote:On March 05 2014 02:23 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 02:19 mcc wrote:
And I still see no examples of Russia invading some other country ? Chechnya. Can you really argue that Russian intervention in Chechnya was not necessary? It was a failed state sending armed raids over the border, kidnapping civilians, etc. No country on Earth would endure such a neighbour for long before taking decisive action to safeguard itself. They annexed it.
To reiterate : It was never an independent country. Unless you consider South Ossetia and Abchazia (and myriad other insurrections) independent countries.
|
On March 05 2014 02:30 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:16 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 02:07 mahrgell wrote:
And how are plans to build an Eurasian Union anything that must be opposed? There are quite a tons of economical unions (hey,,, guess what the EU is?), why on earth should Russia not be allowed trying to forge their own one?
Hey, if Kazachstan thinks, that Russia is the best deal for them.. have fun. If the Ukraine thinks, they can gain more from Russia then from the EU, why stop them? Since 2004 the EU has followed an aggressive anti-Russian course in the Ukraine... And when you corner the Russian bear, it was a matter of time, until it snaps... And while the Maiden protests surely have their justification,with the way things were done, it was obvious, that when paying no respect at all to Russian (and Eastern Ukrainian) interests, not much good will come from it.
This should in no way defend, what Russia is doing right now... But then again, it comes as no surprise, considering the western behavior pretty much provoked it.
And not sure, where you are getting your information from but... The US thinks, that Merkel thinks, that Putin is nuts... The statement has been denied by all German sources, and Germany is continuing to look for a peaceful solution, trying to negotiate, before trading facts with sanctions etc.
Because we should actively oppose a dictator trying to re-establish an eastern hegemony empire on our doorstep that has no respect for other nations sovereignty? I'm sorry if that is to black and white for you. I am pretty sure that Putin was voted into office and also pretty sure that unfortunately he would be voted in even in completely not manipulated elections.
its literally impossible to make this assertion. Especially for the 2012 elections.
Did Czech behavior provoke Soviet intervention in 1968?
|
On March 05 2014 02:19 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:07 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 01:07 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 01:02 Salazarz wrote:On March 05 2014 00:45 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 00:26 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 00:15 Asymmetric wrote:On March 04 2014 23:57 radiatoren wrote:On March 04 2014 23:43 Asymmetric wrote:
Pretty disgusted that the UK is trying to safeguard the city of london from economic sanctions against Russia. Its short sighted and flouts our treaty obligations.
Hardly surprising though from current westminister establishment. Facts are that Putin has invaded Crimea after a request by their questionably elected Unity Russia prime minister. That Putin even denies that is extremely worrying. But nobody has been killed by the russian troops yet and so far it has only been confirmed that Crimea has been occupied. Going full sanctions yet is a bit early and it could be a bargaining chip if the occupation lasts. Slow into it and give Russia a constant open door for deescalations (international "peace-keepers", fact-finding missions, retreat etc.) before a new wave of sanctions hit. That is a modern diplomatic way of never making a leader desperate, but constantly increasing pressure on him. The document that was leaked suggested the UK would avoid all financial sanctions that would harm the city of London. The lack of casualties is irrelevant, in this case the only reason there hasn't been any is the utter restraint of the Ukrainian Armed forces. A European country has been invaded and its territory is being prepped for annexation. Deescalation cannot occur with Russian Troops in the Crimea. There can no be reconciliation with Russia if it only takes a chunk out of country rather than all of it. Pressure must be kept on Russia and intensified. That assumes that escalation is going to force them to leave. How would that work ? Deescalation might actually achieve something. Achieve something? What, a return to the status que but with the Crimea having been annexed from the Ukraine? The West's been trying for decades to include Russia in the decision making processes, making them members of the G8, the WTO and numerous other bilateral agreements between European countries. The concept that Russia could be more easily dealt with by being inclusive with them has been a myth, It has achieved nothing. Russia is as authoritarian and belligerent has it has ever been. We give them an inch and they take a mile. They still brutally murdered Alexander Litvenko in London, they still launched cyber attacks on Estonian in 2007, they still actively fund and arm the Syrian state and are still blatantly willing to enter any neighbors borders with military force. West should revert to treating Russia exactly the same way it treated Russia in the 1980's, which actually did work. There a rival, not a partner Russia has its own interests, that WOULD align much better with interests of the EU, but only IF EU would actually open up to the idea of cooperating with its eastern neighbours more. To write off Russia as a 'rival' is pretty retarded; this isn't a game of Starcraft, there are no victory conditions to be achieved by fighting between countries, be it through military or economic means. Naive. What is retarded is cuddling up to a dictator and thinking they share your interests at heart. Putin does view us as rivals. That is all that matters. Nobody thinks he shares our interests, but Putin is not immortal and by allowing prosperous Russia, maybe one day they will actually become a democracy. While playing childish geopolitical games will achieve absolutely nothing on that front and leave Russia perpetually a powder keg. Many Russians will view that exactly as Putin's propaganda would put it, as imperialist West doing everything to keep them down. How that panned out in Germany after first world war ? If it acts like the Soviet Union, behaves diplomatically like the Soviet Union and wants to actively reclaim the landmass of the Soviet Union then it should be treated exactly like the Soviet Union.
Don't be silly. Comparing Russia to the USSR would be like comparing modern Germany to the Germany from 1930s. People have extreme difficulty getting over the cold war.
|
On March 05 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:19 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 02:07 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 01:07 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 01:02 Salazarz wrote:On March 05 2014 00:45 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 00:26 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 00:15 Asymmetric wrote:On March 04 2014 23:57 radiatoren wrote:On March 04 2014 23:43 Asymmetric wrote:
Pretty disgusted that the UK is trying to safeguard the city of london from economic sanctions against Russia. Its short sighted and flouts our treaty obligations.
Hardly surprising though from current westminister establishment. Facts are that Putin has invaded Crimea after a request by their questionably elected Unity Russia prime minister. That Putin even denies that is extremely worrying. But nobody has been killed by the russian troops yet and so far it has only been confirmed that Crimea has been occupied. Going full sanctions yet is a bit early and it could be a bargaining chip if the occupation lasts. Slow into it and give Russia a constant open door for deescalations (international "peace-keepers", fact-finding missions, retreat etc.) before a new wave of sanctions hit. That is a modern diplomatic way of never making a leader desperate, but constantly increasing pressure on him. The document that was leaked suggested the UK would avoid all financial sanctions that would harm the city of London. The lack of casualties is irrelevant, in this case the only reason there hasn't been any is the utter restraint of the Ukrainian Armed forces. A European country has been invaded and its territory is being prepped for annexation. Deescalation cannot occur with Russian Troops in the Crimea. There can no be reconciliation with Russia if it only takes a chunk out of country rather than all of it. Pressure must be kept on Russia and intensified. That assumes that escalation is going to force them to leave. How would that work ? Deescalation might actually achieve something. Achieve something? What, a return to the status que but with the Crimea having been annexed from the Ukraine? The West's been trying for decades to include Russia in the decision making processes, making them members of the G8, the WTO and numerous other bilateral agreements between European countries. The concept that Russia could be more easily dealt with by being inclusive with them has been a myth, It has achieved nothing. Russia is as authoritarian and belligerent has it has ever been. We give them an inch and they take a mile. They still brutally murdered Alexander Litvenko in London, they still launched cyber attacks on Estonian in 2007, they still actively fund and arm the Syrian state and are still blatantly willing to enter any neighbors borders with military force. West should revert to treating Russia exactly the same way it treated Russia in the 1980's, which actually did work. There a rival, not a partner Russia has its own interests, that WOULD align much better with interests of the EU, but only IF EU would actually open up to the idea of cooperating with its eastern neighbours more. To write off Russia as a 'rival' is pretty retarded; this isn't a game of Starcraft, there are no victory conditions to be achieved by fighting between countries, be it through military or economic means. Naive. What is retarded is cuddling up to a dictator and thinking they share your interests at heart. Putin does view us as rivals. That is all that matters. Nobody thinks he shares our interests, but Putin is not immortal and by allowing prosperous Russia, maybe one day they will actually become a democracy. While playing childish geopolitical games will achieve absolutely nothing on that front and leave Russia perpetually a powder keg. Many Russians will view that exactly as Putin's propaganda would put it, as imperialist West doing everything to keep them down. How that panned out in Germany after first world war ? If it acts like the Soviet Union, behaves diplomatically like the Soviet Union and wants to actively reclaim the landmass of the Soviet Union then it should be treated exactly like the Soviet Union. Don't be silly. Comparing Russia to the USSR would be like comparing modern Germany to the Germany from 1930s. People have extreme difficulty getting over the cold war.
I will take this opportunity to agree with zeo.
|
On March 05 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:19 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 02:07 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 01:07 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 01:02 Salazarz wrote:On March 05 2014 00:45 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 00:26 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 00:15 Asymmetric wrote:On March 04 2014 23:57 radiatoren wrote:On March 04 2014 23:43 Asymmetric wrote:
Pretty disgusted that the UK is trying to safeguard the city of london from economic sanctions against Russia. Its short sighted and flouts our treaty obligations.
Hardly surprising though from current westminister establishment. Facts are that Putin has invaded Crimea after a request by their questionably elected Unity Russia prime minister. That Putin even denies that is extremely worrying. But nobody has been killed by the russian troops yet and so far it has only been confirmed that Crimea has been occupied. Going full sanctions yet is a bit early and it could be a bargaining chip if the occupation lasts. Slow into it and give Russia a constant open door for deescalations (international "peace-keepers", fact-finding missions, retreat etc.) before a new wave of sanctions hit. That is a modern diplomatic way of never making a leader desperate, but constantly increasing pressure on him. The document that was leaked suggested the UK would avoid all financial sanctions that would harm the city of London. The lack of casualties is irrelevant, in this case the only reason there hasn't been any is the utter restraint of the Ukrainian Armed forces. A European country has been invaded and its territory is being prepped for annexation. Deescalation cannot occur with Russian Troops in the Crimea. There can no be reconciliation with Russia if it only takes a chunk out of country rather than all of it. Pressure must be kept on Russia and intensified. That assumes that escalation is going to force them to leave. How would that work ? Deescalation might actually achieve something. Achieve something? What, a return to the status que but with the Crimea having been annexed from the Ukraine? The West's been trying for decades to include Russia in the decision making processes, making them members of the G8, the WTO and numerous other bilateral agreements between European countries. The concept that Russia could be more easily dealt with by being inclusive with them has been a myth, It has achieved nothing. Russia is as authoritarian and belligerent has it has ever been. We give them an inch and they take a mile. They still brutally murdered Alexander Litvenko in London, they still launched cyber attacks on Estonian in 2007, they still actively fund and arm the Syrian state and are still blatantly willing to enter any neighbors borders with military force. West should revert to treating Russia exactly the same way it treated Russia in the 1980's, which actually did work. There a rival, not a partner Russia has its own interests, that WOULD align much better with interests of the EU, but only IF EU would actually open up to the idea of cooperating with its eastern neighbours more. To write off Russia as a 'rival' is pretty retarded; this isn't a game of Starcraft, there are no victory conditions to be achieved by fighting between countries, be it through military or economic means. Naive. What is retarded is cuddling up to a dictator and thinking they share your interests at heart. Putin does view us as rivals. That is all that matters. Nobody thinks he shares our interests, but Putin is not immortal and by allowing prosperous Russia, maybe one day they will actually become a democracy. While playing childish geopolitical games will achieve absolutely nothing on that front and leave Russia perpetually a powder keg. Many Russians will view that exactly as Putin's propaganda would put it, as imperialist West doing everything to keep them down. How that panned out in Germany after first world war ? If it acts like the Soviet Union, behaves diplomatically like the Soviet Union and wants to actively reclaim the landmass of the Soviet Union then it should be treated exactly like the Soviet Union. Don't be silly. Comparing Russia to the USSR would be like comparing modern Germany to the Germany from 1930s. People have extreme difficulty getting over the cold war.
Why did Russian Special Forces have to surround Ukrainian Army in Crimea -- made up of Russian speakers -- to prevent the genocide of Russian race you and Putin claim was happening if the Ukrianian Army in Crimea wasnt accepting orders from Nazi-Fascist junta in Kiev ?
|
When I was first reading about this, I was WTFing my face off that Russia would do such blatant violations of other nations' sovereignty. But think about it, this is exactly what the US has been doing in the Western hemisphere and around the world for years (Trinidad/Tobago, Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan). The realist in me is now mostly concerned with the fact that the US's hegemonic status that it has held since the end of the Cold War is now rapidly declining, and we'll have to see whether its another bipolar world or a multipolar world that forms - and the fatalist in me sees how that could result in another pre-WW1/WW2 geopolitical situation that could easily explode into a third World War if it escalates enough.
|
On March 05 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:19 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 02:07 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 01:07 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 01:02 Salazarz wrote:On March 05 2014 00:45 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 00:26 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 00:15 Asymmetric wrote:On March 04 2014 23:57 radiatoren wrote:On March 04 2014 23:43 Asymmetric wrote:
Pretty disgusted that the UK is trying to safeguard the city of london from economic sanctions against Russia. Its short sighted and flouts our treaty obligations.
Hardly surprising though from current westminister establishment. Facts are that Putin has invaded Crimea after a request by their questionably elected Unity Russia prime minister. That Putin even denies that is extremely worrying. But nobody has been killed by the russian troops yet and so far it has only been confirmed that Crimea has been occupied. Going full sanctions yet is a bit early and it could be a bargaining chip if the occupation lasts. Slow into it and give Russia a constant open door for deescalations (international "peace-keepers", fact-finding missions, retreat etc.) before a new wave of sanctions hit. That is a modern diplomatic way of never making a leader desperate, but constantly increasing pressure on him. The document that was leaked suggested the UK would avoid all financial sanctions that would harm the city of London. The lack of casualties is irrelevant, in this case the only reason there hasn't been any is the utter restraint of the Ukrainian Armed forces. A European country has been invaded and its territory is being prepped for annexation. Deescalation cannot occur with Russian Troops in the Crimea. There can no be reconciliation with Russia if it only takes a chunk out of country rather than all of it. Pressure must be kept on Russia and intensified. That assumes that escalation is going to force them to leave. How would that work ? Deescalation might actually achieve something. Achieve something? What, a return to the status que but with the Crimea having been annexed from the Ukraine? The West's been trying for decades to include Russia in the decision making processes, making them members of the G8, the WTO and numerous other bilateral agreements between European countries. The concept that Russia could be more easily dealt with by being inclusive with them has been a myth, It has achieved nothing. Russia is as authoritarian and belligerent has it has ever been. We give them an inch and they take a mile. They still brutally murdered Alexander Litvenko in London, they still launched cyber attacks on Estonian in 2007, they still actively fund and arm the Syrian state and are still blatantly willing to enter any neighbors borders with military force. West should revert to treating Russia exactly the same way it treated Russia in the 1980's, which actually did work. There a rival, not a partner Russia has its own interests, that WOULD align much better with interests of the EU, but only IF EU would actually open up to the idea of cooperating with its eastern neighbours more. To write off Russia as a 'rival' is pretty retarded; this isn't a game of Starcraft, there are no victory conditions to be achieved by fighting between countries, be it through military or economic means. Naive. What is retarded is cuddling up to a dictator and thinking they share your interests at heart. Putin does view us as rivals. That is all that matters. Nobody thinks he shares our interests, but Putin is not immortal and by allowing prosperous Russia, maybe one day they will actually become a democracy. While playing childish geopolitical games will achieve absolutely nothing on that front and leave Russia perpetually a powder keg. Many Russians will view that exactly as Putin's propaganda would put it, as imperialist West doing everything to keep them down. How that panned out in Germany after first world war ? If it acts like the Soviet Union, behaves diplomatically like the Soviet Union and wants to actively reclaim the landmass of the Soviet Union then it should be treated exactly like the Soviet Union. Don't be silly. Comparing Russia to the USSR would be like comparing modern Germany to the Germany from 1930s. People have extreme difficulty getting over the cold war.
During Gorbachevs times you would be right.But Putin is nothing else than a pseudo tsar who's trying to rebuild the glorious Soviet Union. Only difference is that Russia is now in even worse shape than the Soviet Union was. It's not the evil mainstream media in the west that has 'difficulty getting over the cold war' it is Putin who has problems getting over the cold war, because look at what he's doing right now.
|
@sub40apm
you trying to be cool and repeating zeo language (and more) 10 times per page, does make you look slightly retarded...
User was warned for this post
|
On March 05 2014 02:54 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:30 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 02:16 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 02:07 mahrgell wrote:
And how are plans to build an Eurasian Union anything that must be opposed? There are quite a tons of economical unions (hey,,, guess what the EU is?), why on earth should Russia not be allowed trying to forge their own one?
Hey, if Kazachstan thinks, that Russia is the best deal for them.. have fun. If the Ukraine thinks, they can gain more from Russia then from the EU, why stop them? Since 2004 the EU has followed an aggressive anti-Russian course in the Ukraine... And when you corner the Russian bear, it was a matter of time, until it snaps... And while the Maiden protests surely have their justification,with the way things were done, it was obvious, that when paying no respect at all to Russian (and Eastern Ukrainian) interests, not much good will come from it.
This should in no way defend, what Russia is doing right now... But then again, it comes as no surprise, considering the western behavior pretty much provoked it.
And not sure, where you are getting your information from but... The US thinks, that Merkel thinks, that Putin is nuts... The statement has been denied by all German sources, and Germany is continuing to look for a peaceful solution, trying to negotiate, before trading facts with sanctions etc.
Because we should actively oppose a dictator trying to re-establish an eastern hegemony empire on our doorstep that has no respect for other nations sovereignty? I'm sorry if that is to black and white for you. I am pretty sure that Putin was voted into office and also pretty sure that unfortunately he would be voted in even in completely not manipulated elections. its literally impossible to make this assertion. Especially for the 2012 elections. Did Czech behavior provoke Soviet intervention in 1968?
Assertions are easy, proving them is hard. And I am willing to change my opinion on this with enough good arguments, but I think there is no need to go too deep into it, especially since my argument does not really depend on it too much. It was more to point out that dictatorship and democracy are not discrete binary possibilities.
Do you mean provoke as in was Soviet intervention result of Czech actions (of course) or was Soviet intervention justified by the Czech actions (of course not) ? I assume the latter, why are you asking ?
|
On March 05 2014 03:05 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:On March 05 2014 02:19 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 02:07 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 01:07 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 01:02 Salazarz wrote:On March 05 2014 00:45 Asymmetric wrote:On March 05 2014 00:26 mcc wrote:On March 05 2014 00:15 Asymmetric wrote:On March 04 2014 23:57 radiatoren wrote:
[quote]
Facts are that Putin has invaded Crimea after a request by their questionably elected Unity Russia prime minister. That Putin even denies that is extremely worrying.
But nobody has been killed by the russian troops yet and so far it has only been confirmed that Crimea has been occupied. Going full sanctions yet is a bit early and it could be a bargaining chip if the occupation lasts. Slow into it and give Russia a constant open door for deescalations (international "peace-keepers", fact-finding missions, retreat etc.) before a new wave of sanctions hit. That is a modern diplomatic way of never making a leader desperate, but constantly increasing pressure on him. The document that was leaked suggested the UK would avoid all financial sanctions that would harm the city of London. The lack of casualties is irrelevant, in this case the only reason there hasn't been any is the utter restraint of the Ukrainian Armed forces. A European country has been invaded and its territory is being prepped for annexation. Deescalation cannot occur with Russian Troops in the Crimea. There can no be reconciliation with Russia if it only takes a chunk out of country rather than all of it. Pressure must be kept on Russia and intensified. That assumes that escalation is going to force them to leave. How would that work ? Deescalation might actually achieve something. Achieve something? What, a return to the status que but with the Crimea having been annexed from the Ukraine? The West's been trying for decades to include Russia in the decision making processes, making them members of the G8, the WTO and numerous other bilateral agreements between European countries. The concept that Russia could be more easily dealt with by being inclusive with them has been a myth, It has achieved nothing. Russia is as authoritarian and belligerent has it has ever been. We give them an inch and they take a mile. They still brutally murdered Alexander Litvenko in London, they still launched cyber attacks on Estonian in 2007, they still actively fund and arm the Syrian state and are still blatantly willing to enter any neighbors borders with military force. West should revert to treating Russia exactly the same way it treated Russia in the 1980's, which actually did work. There a rival, not a partner Russia has its own interests, that WOULD align much better with interests of the EU, but only IF EU would actually open up to the idea of cooperating with its eastern neighbours more. To write off Russia as a 'rival' is pretty retarded; this isn't a game of Starcraft, there are no victory conditions to be achieved by fighting between countries, be it through military or economic means. Naive. What is retarded is cuddling up to a dictator and thinking they share your interests at heart. Putin does view us as rivals. That is all that matters. Nobody thinks he shares our interests, but Putin is not immortal and by allowing prosperous Russia, maybe one day they will actually become a democracy. While playing childish geopolitical games will achieve absolutely nothing on that front and leave Russia perpetually a powder keg. Many Russians will view that exactly as Putin's propaganda would put it, as imperialist West doing everything to keep them down. How that panned out in Germany after first world war ? If it acts like the Soviet Union, behaves diplomatically like the Soviet Union and wants to actively reclaim the landmass of the Soviet Union then it should be treated exactly like the Soviet Union. Don't be silly. Comparing Russia to the USSR would be like comparing modern Germany to the Germany from 1930s. People have extreme difficulty getting over the cold war. During Gorbachevs times you would be right. Putin is nothing else than a pseudo tsar who's trying to rebuild the glorious Soviet Union. Only difference is that Russia is now in even worse shape than the Soviet Union was. It's not the evil mainstream media in the west that has 'difficulty getting over the cold war' it is Putin who has problems getting over the cold war, because look at what he's doing right now.
Let me explain it to you in zeo terms: Nazi Fascist Junta overthrew Democratically and beloved President and began racial extermination in Crimea, where Ukrainian army -- full of soldiers who are from Crimea and are mostly Russian -- was going to be the lead vehicle for racial hate and extermination so Russians had no choice and to invade the one place in Ukraine where Fascist Nazism is the strongest, Crimea, and set up a quisling regime and unmarked troops. Also, everything is the Western puppet masters fault for imposing Nazi Fascist Junta.
|
On March 05 2014 03:07 Sub40APM wrote:
Let me explain it to you in zeo terms: Nazi Fascist Junta overthrew Democratically and beloved President and began racial extermination in Crimea, where Ukrainian army -- full of soldiers who are from Crimea and are mostly Russian -- was going to be the lead vehicle for racial hate and extermination so Russians had no choice and to invade the one place in Ukraine where Fascist Nazism is the strongest, Crimea, and set up a quisling regime and unmarked troops. Also, everything is the Western puppet masters fault for imposing Nazi Fascist Junta. As reluctant as I am to say so, that... is actually a fairly accurate summary of Zeo's contribution during the entire time he has been posting to the thread.
Anyhow, I just want to say, no matter the right and wrongs of USA, it doesn't make Russia's actions anymore right or wrong. Generally speaking the people who denounce American actions are just as throughly denouncing current Russian actions. Pointing out the hypocracy of USA doesn't make the invasion of Crimea from Russia any less reprehensible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
