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On November 16 2012 00:01 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 22:29 sgfightmaster wrote:On November 15 2012 22:10 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 21:55 sgfightmaster wrote:On November 15 2012 21:16 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:51 sgfightmaster wrote:On November 15 2012 20:43 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:40 zalz wrote:On November 15 2012 20:36 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:31 BluePanther wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, I don't approve some of the stuff Israel has done, but if I had to pick who I wanted to win in this fight, it would be Israel 100% of the time. They've shown loads more tolerance and restraint than the Palestinians have, both recently and throughout the history of that region (last 100 years or so). I'm not sure you know how this entire conflict started... Israel just stole the Palestinian homeland. Tolerance? Restraint? You can't really be serious. Well, if you put it like that, then the Israeli position is obvious isn't it? There can be no negotiation, and Israel will not permit itself to be destroyed or abolished. If you come into it from your angle, one where there can be no middle ground, then why should Israel seek any? You want to fight for that piece of land? Fine, says Israel, lets fight then. Aren't you, and others like you, getting exactly what you want? A battle to the death, no negotiation. You're saying we should give these extremists what they want, because one can't reason with them? no he's actually saying that based on your reasoning that israel stole the palestinian homeland and hence should have the land taken back from them there is no middle ground. so why should israel bother with negotiation or giving quarter if the only option left to them is fight for their land or give it up? hence the fight to the death But that's their choice. And I figure that's the price of freedom. Or should we have given Nazi Germany half of France? comparing israel to nazi germany is rather ironic and i would say inappropriate - what if france hid behind women and children and shot at nazis? last i checked israel wasnt setting up concentration camps either. nor did germany have any sort of legitimate claims to french land vs the UN brokered treaty for the division of palestine. to extend your metaphor though, you'd rather israel and hamas go to all out war to settle this once and for all? thats an outcome undesirable for all, i think its quite indisputable that as few people dying as possible is a good outcome. what i THINK zalz was saying (and even if he weren't, i'm saying it now) is that the ideal situation would be that of peace/cooperation/equitable division of land, rather than statements claiming the blame lies entirely on one side or the other. EDIT: to the israelis in this thread, what is your take on division of land? afaik israel overstepped the UN declared boundaries on their land, so do you guys think this is justified + if so, why? It truly is horribly ironic. And yes, it's almost inappropriate, if it weren't a fairly accurate comparison. Israel doesn't call them concentration camps, but how else should we call the Gaza strip? Just because the UN brokered the treaty (which I'd consider an incorrect starting point of the conflict; this happened while Palestine still was a UK mandate) this doesn't make it legitimate. I wouldn't want to see all out war, I want to see the UN / civilized world invade Israel and take away power from their extremist government. I'd like to see the land being given back to the Palestines. And then, for all I care, the UK/US can give Israel a part of their own territory. This is also because I don't see a peaceful solution happening. The conflict has lasted close to a century, we've put a complete different culture and religion in the middle of tense region already, there is no way to legitimise Israels creation and existence... But you are right to say you can't truly blame Israel in the bigger picture, but they're sure not helping, and they are the problem now. Looking forward to the answers on your last questions. in concentration camps: babies were roasted in ovens people were herded into gas chambers and killed women were made to strip naked and paraded before nazi soldiers etc etc etc does this stuff happen in the gaza strip? + Show Spoiler +
i'm not exactly clear what happened in the past. if the UN unilaterally partitioned land from what was palestinian in the past then i suppose you could argue it was unfair. like a previous poster mentioned, though, basing claims to land simply on "they were mine in the past" is not indisputable.
i dont quite see how an invasion and more "might is right" is very different from all out war. the scale would not approach millions dead presumably, but the no-holds-barred approach is something that i would not like to see taking place, for one because we are supposed to be more enlightened these days. i would think that a solution amenable to all in the short term is - terrorists stop firing rockets at israelis so israelis have no reason to fire back, and israel take steps to give palestinians a fair deal in terms of land. this completely sidesteps a violent solution.
i'm not sure what you're trying to say with your last statement - you can't blame them for everything, but they are the problem, hence... you can blame them for everything?
That's only partially correct. There were multiple types of concentration camps which also changed their type during the war. The massive killings also started during the later stages of the war. i.e. Aktion 14f13 started in 1941. Also the US also had concentration camps for the Japanese during WW2, but where none of those horrible murders happened. There are certain points which you can argue that Gaza is indeed like a concentration camp.
Yeah, "concentration camp" doesn't necessarily mean forced labour/death camp.
Joe Arpaio likes to boast about his concentration camps in Arizona, after all.
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On November 16 2012 00:03 DwD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. Really? Because every time that I read about this shit it always starts with Hamas shooting rockets into Israel and then a few days later they get hit by an airstrike.. I wonder why... What are they expecting to happen...
You're both proving a point different to the ones you are trying to make.
Hamas shoots rockets. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. hamas shoots rockets in revenge. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. Hamas shoots rockets in revenge.
That's how it goes.
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Go die Sionists
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 15 2012 23:58 TitaniumDesigns wrote:Israel talk about trying to get the sympathy vote, the fact that they declared war via Twitter is retarded, they do realize they are a "government" right? Not some teen age girl hold grudges against people and writes all about it online :L Image - ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p23qVl.jpg)
Wow, this tweet is so stupid. I can't believe it was authorized.
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On November 15 2012 23:24 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. That’s probably cause of the Tech-Diffrence. Hamas/Palestinians shoot Rockets with bad accuracy. So they might kill someone "random" here and there out of "luck" but in general really hit "sensible" targets. Israel on the other hand hits the targets it wants to. Btw: I can't for the live of me figure out a a future in which Israel can/will keep existing along the lines it does now in 100 years. Sooner or later shit will hit the fan hard...
Hamas is one generation of rockets away from being able to hit downtown Tel Aviv or the Dimona nuclear power plant.
Now..the second Israeli radar picks up a inbound rocket heading for either of those locations.
That's when the Fire at Will command is issued and Gaza disappears in a cloud of smoke in under 10 minutes.
You can kind of do the rough math involved with 155mm blast radius and calculate how many white phosphorus shells it would take to get a firestorm going. It's not than many.
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I will drop this here: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-peace-activist-hamas-leader-jabari-killed-amid-talks-on-long-term-truce.premium-1.478085 (you can read a bit more about that here without registering)
Nice timing!
As far as I'm concerned Israel is the only player with the capabilities to reach out for peace. Even when the Hamas could miraculously stop any further rocket attacks Israel can at any point just drop out of the peace talks without really losing anything, while keeping the status pro clearly benefits Israel (the state, not the poor souls killed by Hamas rockets).
On the other hand if Israel would reach out for peace (which would surely mean conflicts with settlers within Israel) and Hamas doesn't accept Israel can go back to what we have now any time.
[EDIT]: Btw I can see why Hamas wouldn't trust Israel on peace talks, considering the prolonged ceasefire of 2008 which was broken by Israel (the rockets fired from Gaza during the ceasefire were despite the best efforts of Hamas as even Israeli officials admit) and the blockade was upheld the whole time although the agreement included easing it.
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On November 16 2012 00:09 tenacity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 23:58 TitaniumDesigns wrote:Israel talk about trying to get the sympathy vote, the fact that they declared war via Twitter is retarded, they do realize they are a "government" right? Not some teen age girl hold grudges against people and writes all about it online :L Image - Wow, this tweet is so stupid. I can't believe it was authorized.
Not really, it's just PR. Think about it: who on Earth would follow the official Twitter of the IDF except for:
1) Die hard supporters of the IDF (many of whom are American)?
2) Hamas?
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On November 16 2012 00:09 RCMDVA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 23:24 Velr wrote:On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. That’s probably cause of the Tech-Diffrence. Hamas/Palestinians shoot Rockets with bad accuracy. So they might kill someone "random" here and there out of "luck" but in general really hit "sensible" targets. Israel on the other hand hits the targets it wants to. Btw: I can't for the live of me figure out a a future in which Israel can/will keep existing along the lines it does now in 100 years. Sooner or later shit will hit the fan hard... Hamas is one generation of rockets away from being able to hit downtown Tel Aviv or the Dimona nuclear power plant. Now..the second Israeli radar picks up a inbound rocket heading for either of those locations. That's when the Fire at Will command is issued and Gaza disappears in a cloud of smoke in under 10 minutes. You can kind of do the rough math involved with 155mm blast radius and calculate how many white phosphorus shells it would take to get a firestorm going. It's not than many.
as if Israel will pulverize Gaza. They would never do that because the worldwide outcry will be too load. They are not at war ffs.
edit: regarding the tweet. Yes, you are probably right but I still find it unacceptable. I thought they knew better. Meh, I'm too naive
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On November 16 2012 00:06 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 00:03 DwD wrote:On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. Really? Because every time that I read about this shit it always starts with Hamas shooting rockets into Israel and then a few days later they get hit by an airstrike.. I wonder why... What are they expecting to happen... You're both proving a point different to the ones you are trying to make. Hamas shoots rockets. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. hamas shoots rockets in revenge. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. Hamas shoots rockets in revenge. That's how it goes.
If the Hamas stops shooting rockets, Israel stops launching airstrikes. If Israel stops launching airstrikes, does Hamas stop shooting rockets?
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On November 16 2012 00:15 tenacity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 00:09 RCMDVA wrote:On November 15 2012 23:24 Velr wrote:On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. That’s probably cause of the Tech-Diffrence. Hamas/Palestinians shoot Rockets with bad accuracy. So they might kill someone "random" here and there out of "luck" but in general really hit "sensible" targets. Israel on the other hand hits the targets it wants to. Btw: I can't for the live of me figure out a a future in which Israel can/will keep existing along the lines it does now in 100 years. Sooner or later shit will hit the fan hard... Hamas is one generation of rockets away from being able to hit downtown Tel Aviv or the Dimona nuclear power plant. Now..the second Israeli radar picks up a inbound rocket heading for either of those locations. That's when the Fire at Will command is issued and Gaza disappears in a cloud of smoke in under 10 minutes. You can kind of do the rough math involved with 155mm blast radius and calculate how many white phosphorus shells it would take to get a firestorm going. It's not than many. as if Israel will pulverize Gaza. They would never do that because the worldwide outcry will be too load. They are not at war ffs. edit: regarding the tweet. Yes, you are probably right but I still find it unacceptable. I thought they knew better. Meh, I'm too naive
They are at war. They go through periods of cease fires but they are at war and have been.
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The bloodiest, most brutal wars fought, all based on religious hatred. Which is fine with me. Hey, any time a bunch of holy people want to kill each other I'm a happy guy.But don't be giving me all this shit about the sanctity of life. I mean, even if there were such a thing, I don't think it's something you can blame on God. No, you know where the sanctity of life came from? We made it up. You know why? 'Cause we're alive. Self-interest.
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On November 16 2012 00:18 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 00:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 16 2012 00:03 DwD wrote:On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. Really? Because every time that I read about this shit it always starts with Hamas shooting rockets into Israel and then a few days later they get hit by an airstrike.. I wonder why... What are they expecting to happen... You're both proving a point different to the ones you are trying to make. Hamas shoots rockets. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. hamas shoots rockets in revenge. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. Hamas shoots rockets in revenge. That's how it goes. If the Hamas stops shooting rockets, Israel stops launching airstrikes. If Israel stops launching airstrikes, does Hamas stop shooting rockets?
I don't think we'll ever find out.
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On November 16 2012 00:18 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 00:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 16 2012 00:03 DwD wrote:On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. Really? Because every time that I read about this shit it always starts with Hamas shooting rockets into Israel and then a few days later they get hit by an airstrike.. I wonder why... What are they expecting to happen... You're both proving a point different to the ones you are trying to make. Hamas shoots rockets. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. hamas shoots rockets in revenge. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. Hamas shoots rockets in revenge. That's how it goes. If the Hamas stops shooting rockets, Israel stops launching airstrikes. If Israel stops launching airstrikes, does Hamas stop shooting rockets?
One of them needs to be the bigger man... Otherwise it will stay the endless back&forward it is right now...
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On November 16 2012 00:18 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 00:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 16 2012 00:03 DwD wrote:On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. Really? Because every time that I read about this shit it always starts with Hamas shooting rockets into Israel and then a few days later they get hit by an airstrike.. I wonder why... What are they expecting to happen... You're both proving a point different to the ones you are trying to make. Hamas shoots rockets. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. hamas shoots rockets in revenge. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. Hamas shoots rockets in revenge. That's how it goes. If the Hamas stops shooting rockets, Israel stops launching airstrikes. If Israel stops launching airstrikes, does Hamas stop shooting rockets?
Unfortunately, looking for logical causation in this issue you will find none.
Hamas is fighting a war for what they perceive to be their land. Backed with the tenets of adulterated faith and the compelling motivation of generations of revenge, then add in the conditions of squalor of Palestinian territories and the influence of outside organizations and you have a war the is 'lost' if peace is achieved.
It is a total mindfuck.
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On November 16 2012 00:24 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 00:18 Feartheguru wrote:On November 16 2012 00:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 16 2012 00:03 DwD wrote:On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. Really? Because every time that I read about this shit it always starts with Hamas shooting rockets into Israel and then a few days later they get hit by an airstrike.. I wonder why... What are they expecting to happen... You're both proving a point different to the ones you are trying to make. Hamas shoots rockets. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. hamas shoots rockets in revenge. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. Hamas shoots rockets in revenge. That's how it goes. If the Hamas stops shooting rockets, Israel stops launching airstrikes. If Israel stops launching airstrikes, does Hamas stop shooting rockets? Unfortunately, looking for logical causation in this issue you will find none. Hamas is fighting a war for what they perceive to be their land. Backed with the tenets of adulterated faith and the compelling motivation of generations of revenge, then add in the conditions of squalor of Palestinian territories and the influence of outside organizations and you have a war the is 'lost' if peace is achieved. It is a total mindfuck.
This is why they need some kind of outside intervention to help them come to a solution so the people can live & prosper in peace despite of their current leaders/hatred
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On November 16 2012 00:18 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 00:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 16 2012 00:03 DwD wrote:On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. Really? Because every time that I read about this shit it always starts with Hamas shooting rockets into Israel and then a few days later they get hit by an airstrike.. I wonder why... What are they expecting to happen... You're both proving a point different to the ones you are trying to make. Hamas shoots rockets. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. hamas shoots rockets in revenge. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. Hamas shoots rockets in revenge. That's how it goes. If the Hamas stops shooting rockets, Israel stops launching airstrikes. If Israel stops launching airstrikes, does Hamas stop shooting rockets?
Read up on the events of 2008 and how it came to the break of a 6 month ceasefire... (the timing of 2008 and now with elections over in the US and upcoming in Israel is eerie).
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On November 16 2012 00:26 Op wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 00:24 AttackZerg wrote:On November 16 2012 00:18 Feartheguru wrote:On November 16 2012 00:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 16 2012 00:03 DwD wrote:On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. Really? Because every time that I read about this shit it always starts with Hamas shooting rockets into Israel and then a few days later they get hit by an airstrike.. I wonder why... What are they expecting to happen... You're both proving a point different to the ones you are trying to make. Hamas shoots rockets. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. hamas shoots rockets in revenge. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. Hamas shoots rockets in revenge. That's how it goes. If the Hamas stops shooting rockets, Israel stops launching airstrikes. If Israel stops launching airstrikes, does Hamas stop shooting rockets? Unfortunately, looking for logical causation in this issue you will find none. Hamas is fighting a war for what they perceive to be their land. Backed with the tenets of adulterated faith and the compelling motivation of generations of revenge, then add in the conditions of squalor of Palestinian territories and the influence of outside organizations and you have a war the is 'lost' if peace is achieved. It is a total mindfuck. This is why they need some kind of outside intervention to help them come to a solution so the people can live & prosper in peace despite of their current leaders/hatred
Outside intervention sounds good in theory, it really does and for a long time I shared this belief.
This situation was created by outside intervention. There is no respectable outside agency capable of intervening. The money of the world backs Israel and the shadow organizations back Hamas. If peace is got for some, it leads to war for different reasons by others. You cannot apply logic to this problem.
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On November 16 2012 00:28 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 00:18 Feartheguru wrote:On November 16 2012 00:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 16 2012 00:03 DwD wrote:On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. Really? Because every time that I read about this shit it always starts with Hamas shooting rockets into Israel and then a few days later they get hit by an airstrike.. I wonder why... What are they expecting to happen... You're both proving a point different to the ones you are trying to make. Hamas shoots rockets. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. hamas shoots rockets in revenge. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. Hamas shoots rockets in revenge. That's how it goes. If the Hamas stops shooting rockets, Israel stops launching airstrikes. If Israel stops launching airstrikes, does Hamas stop shooting rockets? Read up on the events of 2008 and how it came to the break of a 6 month ceasefire... (the timing of 2008 and now with elections over in the US and upcoming in Israel is eerie).
Add to that the upcoming vote in UN Assembly about Palestine end November..
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On November 16 2012 00:30 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 00:26 Op wrote:On November 16 2012 00:24 AttackZerg wrote:On November 16 2012 00:18 Feartheguru wrote:On November 16 2012 00:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 16 2012 00:03 DwD wrote:On November 15 2012 23:15 Kurr wrote:
Every time I read a story about this conflict, Israel is the one bombing a place while calling themselves the victim.
I honestly can't recall a story with a different scenario. I'm sure if happens don't get me wrong, but it seems like Israel is the perpetual bully in this story. Really? Because every time that I read about this shit it always starts with Hamas shooting rockets into Israel and then a few days later they get hit by an airstrike.. I wonder why... What are they expecting to happen... You're both proving a point different to the ones you are trying to make. Hamas shoots rockets. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. hamas shoots rockets in revenge. Israel launches airstrike in revenge. Hamas shoots rockets in revenge. That's how it goes. If the Hamas stops shooting rockets, Israel stops launching airstrikes. If Israel stops launching airstrikes, does Hamas stop shooting rockets? Unfortunately, looking for logical causation in this issue you will find none. Hamas is fighting a war for what they perceive to be their land. Backed with the tenets of adulterated faith and the compelling motivation of generations of revenge, then add in the conditions of squalor of Palestinian territories and the influence of outside organizations and you have a war the is 'lost' if peace is achieved. It is a total mindfuck. This is why they need some kind of outside intervention to help them come to a solution so the people can live & prosper in peace despite of their current leaders/hatred Outside intervention sounds good in theory, it really does and for a long time I shared this belief. This situation was created by outside intervention. There is no respectable outside agency capable of intervening. The money of the world backs Israel and the shadow organizations back Hamas. If peace is got for some, it leads to war for different reasons by others. You cannot apply logic to this problem.
Unfortunately I am very afraid you're right, in the end the interest for peace is not big enough for those in power.. But what else ?
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There is a thing I don't understand, I guess I should add that I'm someone who thinks both parties are equally wrong.
Why is there mass media attention when Israel fires a rocket, while there are often rockets going from gaza towards Israel.
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EPT
