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Alrigth the thread was pretty good but most things that can be said has been said so I'm switching it up a bit.
It seems like many people agree on that there are a lot of games that drag on but at the same time a concede option would impact Dota in a bad way.
But what if there is a third option?
In martial arts (at least kickboxing) most people think there are two ways to win. You either knock your opponent out, or you win on points. But there is a third variety that is much rarer. In sweden it's called "utklassning", "getting outclassed".
It's basically the ref calling the game because you clearly can't defend yourself. It basically only happens in two situations
a) it's a low level match and while both figthers are beginners they are in no way equal and one simply outclasses the other so much it's not even funny
b) one figther gets so tired that he can't even keep his guard up but refuses to give up (and his corner doesn't throw in the towel).
How about something similar in Dota? What if there was a win condition that was just based on your team getting out classed so bad that you can't possibly win. You won't be able to see how close you are to winning but if all conditions are meet the game would end early in your favour.
Poll: Would you like an additional victory condition?No (24) 51% I'd rather be able to surrender instead. (19) 40% Yes (4) 9% 47 total votes Your vote: Would you like an additional victory condition? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): I'd rather be able to surrender instead.
For win conditions, it could look something like this.
To win early you would need to:
Buildings:
Have destroyed at least 5 enemy structures.
Not have lost more than 5 structures.
Not lost a structure the last 10 minutes.
Levels
Total team level is at least 10 levels above opposing team (on average 2 levels higher).
Highest level hero is at least 3 levels higher than highest level enemy hero.
The opposing team has not earned more experience then you in the last three minutes.
Gold
Total team networth (gold and current items) are worth at least 25000 gold.
Total team networth is at least triple that of opposing team.
The opposing team has not earned more gold than you for at least three minutes.
Creeps
The enemy team has not killed Roshan in the last 10 minutes.
These are just examples but the conditions would have to be so hard to get that a pro level game would NEVER be easier to end by meeting them instead of just killing the ancient.
Poll: Should there be a concede option?No (149) 59% Yes (102) 41% 251 total votes Your vote: Should there be a concede option? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Hello Dota forum. I bougth a beta key and started playing Dota 2 just a few days ago and I'm wondering what people think about leaving games.
I'm an old Starcraft player and I'm pretty firmly in the camp that once you have lost a game badly enough you concede, yet there is no option for this in Dota 2.
Similarly it can take like 20 minutes for a team of noobs like me to win a game that's clearly over (ie half of the enemy team has left).
Since I'm raised with the "if you lost gg and get out" school of thougth I do not stay in games when it's clear that they are over. Like if the enemies have destroyed every tower on the field and we can't touch theirs and their carry 3 hits everyone on our team and just shrugs of 5 people unloading on them. It's pointless to play, it's like being down 3 bases in sc and then loosing your army, there's NO reason to keep playing if the enemy could win even if they got a stroke and broke their arm at the same time.
But what is consensus on leaving? Is it BM,or is it OK?
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I think if you want to leave, then leave. You'll get the consequences.
User was warned for this post
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On September 20 2012 04:32 Torte de Lini wrote:
I think if you want to leave, then leave. You'll get the consequences.
What would those be?
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Low Priority.
User was warned for this post
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On September 20 2012 04:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Hello Dota forum. I bougth a beta key and started playing Dota 2 just a few days ago and I'm wondering what people think about leaving games.
I'm an old Starcraft player and I'm pretty firmly in the camp that once you have lost a game badly enough you concede, yet there is no option for this in Dota 2.
Similarly it can take like 20 minutes for a team of noobs like me to win a game that's clearly over (ie half of the enemy team has left).
Since I'm raised with the "if you lost gg and get out" school of thougth I do not stay in games when it's clear that they are over. Like if the enemies have destroyed every tower on the field and we can't touch theirs and their carry 3 hits everyone on our team and just shrugs of 5 people unloading on them. It's pointless to play, it's like being down 3 bases in sc and then loosing your army, there's NO reason to keep playing if the enemy could win even if they got a stroke and broke their arm at the same time.
But what is consensus on leaving? Is it BM,or is it OK?
Sorry, but you are bad and dont know when the game is over. Keep playing until you lose or suffer the consequences.
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United States482 Posts
Being down in SC2 can be considered alot different from being down in DOTA. There are lots of ways to get back in a game, or make an epic comeback. Having the ability to leave a game whenever you feel you've "lost" is detrimental to you and your team many times. Don't get me wrong, sometimes in a stomp you are definitely outplayed and have no chance to win, just hope your opponents make it quick.
When people have left the game and you're looking to finish the game quickly, usually just push mid as a team, or take a Roshan then push mid.
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Leaving is BM and in DotA we go by the you fight to the end mentality.
You joined a game with four others, as long as they want to play, so should you, since you started looking for a game.
Ontop of that i don't care about playing a lost game, because you know, i have fun playing the game regardless of winning or losing. If i can pull off some big plays while losing, then that's good enough for me.
I have 1 abandon which is due to power shortage, i do not plan on having that number increasing, i hate leavers with a passion.
I've had games where the enemy was ahead and we just turtled and the enemies eventually got cocky, lost a big fight with no buybacks and we rush their throne and win.
I have won games that i should never ever have won from a logical point of view.
Smoke ganks, sneaking roshan, split pushing and so on are all ways to get back into a game. Ontop of that you can still become a better player by playing from behind, your last hitting can still improve, so can your map awareness and general game sense.
Though if you feel that you need to leave once behind, go ahead and do so, you will be in low priority with people with the same mind-set which will save people who want to play to the end the trouble of Q'ing up into a game with you.
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You say you've been playing the game for a few days and somehow you're able to determine when a game is lost? I'm sorry but i don't believe it. Since you are probably just learning the basics right now, just play the game out and you'll be surprised that you can come back from situtations like the one you mentioned.
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If you leave you get abandons which leads to low priority queuing. Which isn't great
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United States482 Posts
Also keep in mind, if the other team has left the game, and received abandonment (5 minutes afk or dc). You do have the option to leave the game without any penalty, and unless you have destroyed the enemy barracks before that point the game doesn't count stat wise. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's whats been the assumption I've been under at least.)
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I kinda agree with the OP. I don't think individuals should just leave whenever because yes that sucks (ive been playing dota for a long time now), its great that the leavers problem has been mostly solved compared to back in the day. I still think there should be a way to concede as a team, even if its something like requires all 5 teammates to agree on, like in HoN but stricter.
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On September 20 2012 04:50 Shunjal wrote:
Also keep in mind, if the other team has left the game, and received abandonment (5 minutes afk or dc). You do have the option to leave the game without any penalty, and unless you have destroyed the enemy barracks before that point the game doesn't count stat wise. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's whats been the assumption I've been under at least.)
Stats don't count only if when someone leaves it says, "[so and so] has abandoned the game. No stats will be recorded for this game" However, after someone gets a leave you may leave as well without any penalty, even if stats are being recorded.
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If you want to leave, leave. You'll get into the low priority queue which takes longer to find a game and puts you with other leavers and people with high reports, i.e. feeders and the like.
Or fight to the end. If both of these options don't appeal to you, run around in your fountain until the game ends, which is exactly as boring as it sounds and may get you reported.
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Being behind is slightly different in DotA 2 than in Starcraft, a single successful gank or a good teamfight can turn a game around really fucking fast. When there is no way on earth you can come back, game should end in the following 5 minutes anyway so it's no big deal. One of the really annoying things however if when people go like "we lost 3 towers and are down 7 kills, it's obviously over" and then leave. It's not true and people should be able to play DotA from the beginning to the end. I can have fun even when we are loosing.
+ Show Spoiler +Since this thread will obviously turn into "concede or not" : my opinion is that concede is retarded.
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On September 20 2012 04:41 Spicy_Curry wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 04:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Hello Dota forum. I bougth a beta key and started playing Dota 2 just a few days ago and I'm wondering what people think about leaving games.
I'm an old Starcraft player and I'm pretty firmly in the camp that once you have lost a game badly enough you concede, yet there is no option for this in Dota 2.
Similarly it can take like 20 minutes for a team of noobs like me to win a game that's clearly over (ie half of the enemy team has left).
Since I'm raised with the "if you lost gg and get out" school of thougth I do not stay in games when it's clear that they are over. Like if the enemies have destroyed every tower on the field and we can't touch theirs and their carry 3 hits everyone on our team and just shrugs of 5 people unloading on them. It's pointless to play, it's like being down 3 bases in sc and then loosing your army, there's NO reason to keep playing if the enemy could win even if they got a stroke and broke their arm at the same time.
But what is consensus on leaving? Is it BM,or is it OK? Sorry, but you are bad and dont know when the game is over. Keep playing until you lose or suffer the consequences.
Really?
So being down something like 4 - 30 in KD, outleveled about 4 levels at least on all heroes, 2 guy on your team DC'ed and the enemy main carry has something like 5000+ more gold in items than then best on your team and you don't think I know that we are completly and utterly fucked?
Problem is it still takes 20 minutes for them to win since even if they have one great player and a few decent ones there is no coordination what so ever and they rather just run around and kill people than finish the game.
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If 2 people already left on your team, then you are free to leave, problem solved.
Not seeing your problem here.
Not in the mood for the whole concede or not discussion, so i'll just say this: Being able to concede will often have 4 people harassing one person to accept it and amplifies the defeatist mind-set some people have. It's very bad and i do not ever want it and i believe valve said they don't want it either, gladly.
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If there has been a DC you only have to wait for 5 minutes before you can leave the game as well, without any punishment.
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On September 20 2012 04:41 Spicy_Curry wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 04:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Hello Dota forum. I bougth a beta key and started playing Dota 2 just a few days ago and I'm wondering what people think about leaving games.
I'm an old Starcraft player and I'm pretty firmly in the camp that once you have lost a game badly enough you concede, yet there is no option for this in Dota 2.
Similarly it can take like 20 minutes for a team of noobs like me to win a game that's clearly over (ie half of the enemy team has left).
Since I'm raised with the "if you lost gg and get out" school of thougth I do not stay in games when it's clear that they are over. Like if the enemies have destroyed every tower on the field and we can't touch theirs and their carry 3 hits everyone on our team and just shrugs of 5 people unloading on them. It's pointless to play, it's like being down 3 bases in sc and then loosing your army, there's NO reason to keep playing if the enemy could win even if they got a stroke and broke their arm at the same time.
But what is consensus on leaving? Is it BM,or is it OK? Sorry, but you are bad and dont know when the game is over. Keep playing until you lose or suffer the consequences.
Really? That's all you've got to say, just a casual "madcuzbad" and then you're out?
I would tend to agree that you shouldn't leave games just to save a few minutes of your own time, no game is really un-winnable, especially against bad players. I've never come back from mega creeps but I've won games where I have 1 ranged rax left and the other team had better farm, purely because they became over-confident and streamed in 1 by 1.
However, I too am of the opinion that dota2 should have a concede function, of some variety. There were some inherent flaws with HoN's voting system (especially that it became really annoying when people would spam it). In my opinion the best way to create a concede system would be to give every player a switch they can flip every 10 seconds or something, that changes them from wanting to concede, or wanting to play it out. 4/5 minimum, maybe all 5 would be better. And it should wait like 15 seconds after enough players have agreed to surrender, with a graphic on the screen somewhere saying "concede incoming", before actually ending the game, to make sure that there's less/no rage concedes.
This would also be absolutely way fucking better for the pro scene than having to have the commentators ramble about random nonsense for 3 minutes while everyone disconnects in more 1 sided games. There's no reason why an esport game as advanced as dota2 should have inherent flaws like this.
edit: before anyone even responds to this, my last point stands regardless of pub games, valve should implement a smoother way for teams to exit games, this could be a feature enabled in custom games at the beginning of the match.
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On September 20 2012 05:12 Unleashing wrote:
If 2 people already left on your team, then you are free to leave, problem solved.
Not seeing your problem here.
Not in the mood for the whole concede or not discussion, so i'll just say this: Being able to concede will often have 4 people harassing one person to accept it and amplifies the defeatist mind-set some people have. It's very bad and i do not ever want it and i believe valve said they don't want it either, gladly.
Ah, that would be why I only have one abandoned game then. 
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On September 20 2012 05:09 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 04:41 Spicy_Curry wrote:On September 20 2012 04:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Hello Dota forum. I bougth a beta key and started playing Dota 2 just a few days ago and I'm wondering what people think about leaving games.
I'm an old Starcraft player and I'm pretty firmly in the camp that once you have lost a game badly enough you concede, yet there is no option for this in Dota 2.
Similarly it can take like 20 minutes for a team of noobs like me to win a game that's clearly over (ie half of the enemy team has left).
Since I'm raised with the "if you lost gg and get out" school of thougth I do not stay in games when it's clear that they are over. Like if the enemies have destroyed every tower on the field and we can't touch theirs and their carry 3 hits everyone on our team and just shrugs of 5 people unloading on them. It's pointless to play, it's like being down 3 bases in sc and then loosing your army, there's NO reason to keep playing if the enemy could win even if they got a stroke and broke their arm at the same time.
But what is consensus on leaving? Is it BM,or is it OK? Sorry, but you are bad and dont know when the game is over. Keep playing until you lose or suffer the consequences. Really? So being down something like 4 - 30 in KD, outleveled about 4 levels at least on all heroes, 2 guy on your team DC'ed and the enemy main carry has something like 5000+ more gold in items than then best on your team and you don't think I know that we are completly and utterly fucked? Problem is it still takes 20 minutes for them to win since even if they have one great player and a few decent ones there is no coordination what so ever and they rather just run around and kill people than finish the game.
If two guys (ore even one only) on your team are DCed for more than 5 min, you can freely leave the game . Otherwise, keep trying to win.
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EPT
