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On September 20 2012 06:46 BeanerBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:41 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On September 20 2012 06:14 DeltaX wrote:On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Its not about leaving early. No one who has played SC would leave early.
But I just lost a game that was over and it took 17 minutes (I counted) for the opposing team to kill us.
That's a loooooooooong time. 17 minutes from what point? I've had games where my team was up in kills by about double and a few towers and they were calling gg at like 15 minutes, but they played on and had better team fight heroes and were able to come back with some bad fights from my team. It turned into a pretty even game in the end. If your whole team really just wants the game to end you can just sit in the fountain and just ask them to finish and most people will, but few games start out as 2-30 stomps and don't end soon. Comebacks are fairly common from what I have seen. Game ended at 45 minutes so at the ~28 minute mark. I had an even worse game now when 2 of the enemy players dropped asap. Can you leave a game where the enemy discs as well? Because if there's one thing worse than loosing when your players leave it's winning when their players leave. heh, you got screwed over by leavers and that made it "an even worse game" ^^ if the game has a single person abandon it (disconnected for 5 minutes) you can leave at any time without getting an abandon, however if you play it out you will get battle points. The message of this thread is that leavers ruin games, end of story.
Yes that may be the messege of the thread but the point of the thread was me arguing for an option to GG.
Yes leavers ruin shit, I realise this to. Most pub games end because someone leaves. I never leave a game first but I also feel frustrated to be in a loopsided game, regardless of if I lose OR win.
I'd much rather just be able to "GG" out of it or accept a GG from the enemy. You could put all kinds of restrictions on it (must kill all outer towers, game over 20 minutes, everyone must vote on it completly hidden etc) but it would be nice.
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I detest concede option. Look at what it did to LoL and HoN. If you play those games at all, you will see tons and tons and tons and tons (ALOT) of people who will say "surrender asap omg we're down 5 kills gg". That crap is bullshit and frankly, I don't want it coming over to DotA more than it naturally will.
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I'm against the concede option.
I'm in the camp of if you want to leave then leave. I have 18 abandons in about 1000 games played. If a game is bad enough and I think its going to draw out for no reason then I leave. Sometimes your team randoms 4 terrible melee heroes and then feeds them to the enemy. After about 20 minutes and a score of 30-10 then sometimes its better to just take off and try another game.
I can do that about once a week with no consequences so I think the system workrs fine.
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I'm definately against conceding. Sometimes 1 person on a team thinks it's concede time and just stops playing alltogether and keeps trying to surrender, other times it just ruins alot of the fun. Remember playing LoL having a fairly good start and people calling ggs at 20 minute mark before the game hits its stride.
Sometimes it sucks games dragging out sometimes it's awesome lol, wouldn't want it any other way
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My only problem with the lack of a surrender option is that a lot of times the enemy team will just refuse to take ancient and start camping fountain for a good 10 minutes. Normally if I'm Q'ing as 5 then we all just leave, but in pub games you can't be sure you won't get an abandon.
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On September 20 2012 06:13 Mig wrote:
It doesn't matter how long it takes for the enemy team to finish you. Dota is a team game, when you leave you are ruining the game for your teammates who may have wanted to keep trying.
This is how I see it too.
Sure it sucks sometimes, especially if it's your teammates fault that you're on the losing in end, - I take that back it's worse when it's because of your own mistakes you're losing, but fucking take it !
Often you can win, even if it seems impossible. A couple good fights and some huge plays and yes, you game might be back in your court instead.
So no, don't leave, play on even if you don't want to.
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i leave a soon as more than one person starts typing in cyrillic
no joke
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On September 20 2012 06:49 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:46 BeanerBurrito wrote:On September 20 2012 06:41 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On September 20 2012 06:14 DeltaX wrote:On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Its not about leaving early. No one who has played SC would leave early.
But I just lost a game that was over and it took 17 minutes (I counted) for the opposing team to kill us.
That's a loooooooooong time. 17 minutes from what point? I've had games where my team was up in kills by about double and a few towers and they were calling gg at like 15 minutes, but they played on and had better team fight heroes and were able to come back with some bad fights from my team. It turned into a pretty even game in the end. If your whole team really just wants the game to end you can just sit in the fountain and just ask them to finish and most people will, but few games start out as 2-30 stomps and don't end soon. Comebacks are fairly common from what I have seen. Game ended at 45 minutes so at the ~28 minute mark. I had an even worse game now when 2 of the enemy players dropped asap. Can you leave a game where the enemy discs as well? Because if there's one thing worse than loosing when your players leave it's winning when their players leave. heh, you got screwed over by leavers and that made it "an even worse game" ^^ if the game has a single person abandon it (disconnected for 5 minutes) you can leave at any time without getting an abandon, however if you play it out you will get battle points. The message of this thread is that leavers ruin games, end of story. Yes that may be the messege of the thread but the point of the thread was me arguing for an option to GG. Yes leavers ruin shit, I realise this to. Most pub games end because someone leaves. I never leave a game first but I also feel frustrated to be in a loopsided game, regardless of if I lose OR win. I'd much rather just be able to "GG" out of it or accept a GG from the enemy. You could put all kinds of restrictions on it (must kill all outer towers, game over 20 minutes, everyone must vote on it completly hidden etc) but it would be nice.
My personal feeling towards concede is that if it's based on time it is a horrible idea
If for example you could only concede after losing two sets of raxes and all towers outside of base, i might be ok with it, but simply conceding at 25 minutes is the worst thing that could be implemented.
But as we've already said, just leaving is bad, and in my opinion unacceptable.
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I kind of hate the elitist mentality that paints the concede function as taboo.
There is a distinct difference between thinking you lost, but having the possibility to comeback, and having all 5 of your teamates agree it's over and say "waiting in fountain just end it". The latter usually results in the other team fucking around for 20 minutes before actually ending it. It's also a bit insulting to assume that a team is incapable of deciding on their own when they have collectively lost and are ready to move onto the next game.
Some arguements that existed against a HoN style concede:
- People vote kick the player who refuses to concede
This cannot happen since vote kick does not exist in Dota 2
- It premotes a defeatist attitude
Not having concede does not magically produce an enviroment devoid of defeatists. In fact, it makes everyone else suffer for longer when they refuse to play properly as a result.
- Noobs will not learn end game and will develop bad habits
A system could be worked out to addressing timing the option is made available as well as "unlocking" advanced games at a certain Dota level (now that this system has been introduced)
- Your team may want to continue playing
That's what the unanimous decision is for. You prevent spamming the vote by putting a cap of once per game in.
This game can certainly exist without a concede option (as it already demonstrates). I just think less time would be wasted if a reasonable, consensus driven function was introduced.
For refrence I have:
350 games played and 0 abandons in Dota 2
450 games played in HoN
I am not a quitter in Dota, please do not mistake my post as a confession.
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On September 20 2012 07:46 Arcticc wrote:
I kind of hate the elitist mentality that paints the concede function as taboo.
There is a distinct difference between thinking you lost, but having the possibility to comeback, and having all 5 of your teamates agree it's over and say "waiting in fountain just end it". The latter usually results in the other team fucking around for 20 minutes before actually ending it. It's also a bit insulting to assume that a team is incapable of deciding on their own when they have collectively lost and are ready to move onto the next game.
Some arguements that existed against a HoN style concede:
- People vote kick the player who refuses to concede
This cannot happen since vote kick does not exist in Dota 2
- It premotes a defeatist attitude
Not having concede does not magically produce an enviroment devoid of defeatists. In fact, it makes everyone else suffer for longer when they refuse to play properly as a result.
- Noobs will not learn end game and will develop bad habits
A system could be worked out to addressing timing the option is made available as well as "unlocking" advanced games at a certain Dota level (now that this system has been introduced)
- Your team may want to continue playing
That's what the unanimous decision is for. You prevent spamming the vote by putting a cap of once per game in.
This game can certainly exist without a concede option (as it already demonstrates). I just think less time would be wasted if a reasonable, consensus driven function was introduced.
For refrence I have:
350 games played and 0 abandons in Dota 2
450 games played in HoN
I am not a quitter in Dota, please do not mistake my post as a confession.
There is a unanimous concede option. If all 5 members of your team leave the game, it ends. It is essentially the same as having a concede option, but only available once. If someone declines it, you are fucked in both scenarios.
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You are better without concede.
For a few games where you are completly stomped and you're against retards who don't want to end it, your gain is being able to play a lot of games starting badly without having to see the concede thing flooded as much as possible by bad players who always assume it's lost when it's 0/5.
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I think there should be a concede button, but only have it in rare cases where a system can recognize the game is nearly impossible to come back from. This will only be in very extreme cases though so not every game will have a concede button, but it helps people that just want to que quickly so no time is wasted in just a massive stomp. I'd say games like 10-30 maybe even more would be reasonable for a concede button.
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HoN concede was silly, and made it very easy to get some quick wins when leveling up smurfs. Pick highly aggressive early game lineup, gank like a madman. Watch the other team cry and call concede at 15. Next game gogo.
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On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Can you leave a game where the enemy discs as well? Because if there's one thing worse than loosing when your players leave it's winning when their players leave.
If you get the red "The game is safe to leave" text, shown in the image below, you can leave the game without getting an abandon.
+ Show Spoiler [Image] +
And about the concede option, it will only make the game worse imo. I was initially for the option and couldn't really see why they wouldn't implement it, but over time I have realized how much better off dota 2 is without it. Firstly, you get to witness all the epic comebacks that happens in dota, despite being in a situation were it should be impossible to win, and the entire team would have surrendered if the option existed. And while you also sometimes gets long dragged out stomp, the feeling of winning an unwinnable game makes it all worth it. In general, people tend to give up way to early. And lastly we don't have to play with people who tries to bully a surrender through the moment they give first blood away, or simply just do a "SURR OR I AFK!" move. The possibility to surrender a game makes people give up, or spreads a negative attitude to the game if you are on the losing side.
The issue has already been debated endlessly on the dota 2 developer forum (to a point where they don't allow new posts on the matter), feel free to check it out if you want more points for and against.
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Yeah, there should be a 5/5 surrender option.
Especially when we're getting crushed and the enemy's not attacked, dragging a game won at 20min until 1 hour with having me just running away from their team / dying repeatedly is incredibly useless and a complete waste of time. It'd be okay if I could make my graphics card calm down during the time while I read visual novels or something but having the fan wroom wroom even with a browser window on top of the game...
On September 20 2012 08:54 Phyxx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Can you leave a game where the enemy discs as well? Because if there's one thing worse than loosing when your players leave it's winning when their players leave. If you get the red "The game is safe to leave" text, shown in the image below, you can leave the game without getting an abandon. + Show Spoiler [Image] +And about the concede option, it will only make the game worse imo. I was initially for the option and couldn't really see why they wouldn't implement it, but over time I have realized how much better off dota 2 is without it. Firstly, you get to witness all the epic comebacks that happens in dota, despite being in a situation were it should be impossible to win, and the entire team would have surrendered if the option existed. And while you also sometimes gets long dragged out stomp, the feeling of winning an unwinnable game makes it all worth it. In general, people tend to give up way to early. And lastly we don't have to play with people who tries to bully a surrender through the moment they give first blood away, or simply just do a "SURR OR I AFK!" move. The possibility to surrender a game makes people give up, or spreads a negative attitude to the game if you are on the losing side. The issue has already been debated endlessly on the dota 2 developer forum (to a point where they don't allow new posts on the matter), feel free to check it out if you want more points for and against.
If it's a 5/5 surrender all you need to do is never surrender if you like the comebacks.
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All these people talking about how a concede option makes the game worse are engaging in extremely idealistic thinking. DotA is a game whose design fundamentally allows for snowballing. Arguing that you can win 5% of the games where you're behind 20-5 ignores that not only do such comebacks require specific team comps, that 5% chance shouldn't be forced on us. The worst part is that in some games (including one last night, worst game I've played in my life) you do badly enough that even getting in creep EXP range will result in feeding. Any action at that point is reportable!
I am well aware that they will never implement a concede function. I just wish they would acknowledge how much worse they are making the game because of that.
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On September 20 2012 09:05 Shikyo wrote:Yeah, there should be a 5/5 surrender option. Especially when we're getting crushed and the enemy's not attacked, dragging a game won at 20min until 1 hour with having me just running away from their team / dying repeatedly is incredibly useless and a complete waste of time. It'd be okay if I could make my graphics card calm down during the time while I read visual novels or something but having the fan wroom wroom even with a browser window on top of the game... Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 08:54 Phyxx wrote:On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Can you leave a game where the enemy discs as well? Because if there's one thing worse than loosing when your players leave it's winning when their players leave. If you get the red "The game is safe to leave" text, shown in the image below, you can leave the game without getting an abandon. + Show Spoiler [Image] +And about the concede option, it will only make the game worse imo. I was initially for the option and couldn't really see why they wouldn't implement it, but over time I have realized how much better off dota 2 is without it. Firstly, you get to witness all the epic comebacks that happens in dota, despite being in a situation were it should be impossible to win, and the entire team would have surrendered if the option existed. And while you also sometimes gets long dragged out stomp, the feeling of winning an unwinnable game makes it all worth it. In general, people tend to give up way to early. And lastly we don't have to play with people who tries to bully a surrender through the moment they give first blood away, or simply just do a "SURR OR I AFK!" move. The possibility to surrender a game makes people give up, or spreads a negative attitude to the game if you are on the losing side. The issue has already been debated endlessly on the dota 2 developer forum (to a point where they don't allow new posts on the matter), feel free to check it out if you want more points for and against. If it's a 5/5 surrender all you need to do is never surrender if you like the comebacks.
Then get flamed for the rest of the game because I still think we might win this ? Or have a game end suddenly because the other team doesn't realize it's normal for them to loose people to ganks and towers when playing vs Tiny/Lesh ?
Due to the lack of concede option, a lot of people play it out and just don't whine about it. You can have the occasional dude who likes to say "this is over" again and again, the dude that just leaves and the dude that says "fuck you I'm buying courier" but I haven't encountered the last two types in a long time. The fact that the option exists actually encourage people to play the game without moaning, since they have no choice but to do so. It forces people to play it out and see what happens. On the contrary if there is a surrender button and I keep voting no, my team hates me, wants to stop playing and starts dicking around because they can actually have the game end right now. If the button is not there, there is no choice but to play.
THE ONLY SURRENDER BUTTON I CAN ACCEPT (not that my approval means a lot but w/e) is the following : A concede button that all members must agree to when someone leaves (not disconnects, abandon/leave ) the game, so you don't actually have to play the rest of the game 4v5, which is not a game of DotA.
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Also, if you leave games I think the matchmaking system queues you up with other leavers, rather than people with barely any leaves  So it's your choice really.
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I liked the idea I think I read here where everyone has this box you can check if you are ready to surrender. If you check this box no messages will be sent, nobody will be notified, but if a whole team has checked it, the team concedes. If someone just checks the box and stops playing it would be really easy to recognise if you report him. I really dont like the way it is in HoN though where it is a loud announcement saying "LETS GIVE UP" and I am very split on the topic in general. I like to think there are functional ways to introduce it.
Also, dont leave games.
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Played LoL, HoN, and Dota 2, and I think the option to concede is overall better for these games. Its true that there are obviously some winnable games that get ended too soon, but generally speaking the concede option is used only when the game is already over. There was also very little of this harassing one guy to concede thing people are suggesting, lol.
Furthermore, being in a losing position means your team has made certain mistakes that have put them behind. Its generally very hard to get your team playing differently to win the game. I can see this happening with a decent skilled 5 man premade, but in solo queue pub games, nobody is going to listen to you, and players generally continue to make the mistakes that gave the enemy the lead.
In Dota 2, on the other hand, theres no concede option so you have to play it out, but that doesn't stop people from mentally giving up. They will stop trying, sit in the fountain, message the enemy team to "end it fast". Often 2-3 players will keep playing, the rest are sitting in the fountain fighting with them to stop defending.
I feel almost every single one of my games has gone on longer than it should. Theres a point in every game where it is clearly over. Maybe that point is when two lanes are down and the opponent team has a massive gold and exp lead. But the game will still drag on for another 10 minutes because they want to roshan, and because, instead of ending the game, they want to farm you at the spawn site to buff up their kdr. The last 5-15 minutes of pretty much every game is incredibly boring, because its one overfed team trying to fit in as many kills as they can before their creeps win the game for them.
HoNs concede system was pretty good, I would like to see something similar introduced in dota2.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/803/safetoleavedota2.png/)
