EPTAnd the "win one fight and you can win" can happen only in some losing games. When its possible, people don't want to give up. But you reach a point where a farmed out AM can basically 1v4 you. Nobody got hex, and you dont have a blinking initiator cuz its a low level game. You're not going to win a team fight in this case.
Leaving games - Page 6
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
And the "win one fight and you can win" can happen only in some losing games. When its possible, people don't want to give up. But you reach a point where a farmed out AM can basically 1v4 you. Nobody got hex, and you dont have a blinking initiator cuz its a low level game. You're not going to win a team fight in this case. | ||
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BlitzerSC
Italy8800 Posts
As you said , you don't play at a pro level and guess what, your opponents aren't pro either and they make mistakes too. I would also really like to see those replays were a farmed AM killed 4 heroes all by himself . I'm really curious. Edit: Ps. Why don't you get a blinl initiator and a hex instead of whining about your teammates ? | ||
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cilinder007
Slovenia7251 Posts
On September 20 2012 20:45 BlitzerSC wrote: Well then , show us the games that got "prolonged" and let us decide if they were really over. As you said , you don't play at a pro level and guess what, your opponents aren't pro either and they make mistakes too. I would also really like to see those replays were a farmed AM killed 4 heroes all by himself . I'm really curious. Edit: Ps. Why don't you get a blinl initiator and a hex instead of whining about your teammates ? probably because its a pub game and the objective isnt to win but to have fun playing | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
The biggest problem with no concede is that even if everyone agrees they want to concede, you can't unless everyone agrees and leaves at roughly the same time. The system is not clear and forces you into a Hobbesian trap where everyone is afraid that someone on the team is going to screw it up and give you an abandon so nobody wants to leave. It's even worse when someone on the other team has dc'ed and doesn't know the rules (or is scared like I said) so you get a meaningless win. A concede option would make it completely clear. Some argue that that it would 'stunt learning', and while I can see how that might be true of more advanced players it makes less sense for beginning players. If you're getting stomped at the begging of the game, you need to start a new game until you get the early stage of the game down. Learning everything from the perspective of being really behind is the wrong way to learn. Besides, if the story of the game is "first we played awful then they played awful" I doubt much real learning is occurring. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
What level do you play at? high? very high? Just as you're suggesting I don't know what happens or can happen at those level of games, simply because I don't play there, means that you don't know what happens in Normal level games, where I play. I've had games where 2-3 start afking in the fountain and threatening me and the other guy with reports unless we do the same to expedite the loss. Furthremore, and try to understand this, people at my level of play aren't some super gosus. I fully admit at this level of play, there are several POSSIBLE comeback wins that aren't realized. Obviously if Dendi watched such a game, he could point out what we needed to do in order to win. What you don't realize is that the team is behind because they've played badly (or have terrible picks), and they're not going to suddenly transform within the span of a single game and develop high level game sense. If they've been feeding ursa by getting into 1on1 fights with him, they will generally continue to do this. I can understand 5 man premades or high level players having enough game sense to be malleable enough to switch gears and direction to possibly get a win. But at my level of play, its extremely rare. And no, I'm not going to go through my match history to pull out examples. The suggestion that I'm inventing these examples is insulting and not worth the effort of going through my games to disprove. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
Sometimes you get totally stomped, and when people roll your team with full items and 5 more levels, they will make the game last ages in purpose to feel good about farming you, instead of finishing relatively fast (in my experience at low level). It's not fun, and worst of all it's waste of time, playing a 50 minute games that was lost at the 30mn mark is like half a game less you can play in your given time. I don't think anyone should be allowed to waste people's time in a game where games last that long, and therefore a surrender option should be implemented in my opinion. When playing with friends that can't play more than 2hours, jerks like that only let you play 2 games instead of 3 I.E. Of course when one guy wishes to continue, you shouldn't be able to leave, but if the vote requires the 5 players to agree, it's fine for everyone. | ||
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YoucriedWolf
Sweden1456 Posts
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
I am absolutely opposed to a concede option, UNLESS they implement it under the conditions that there has to be an astronomical gold/exp advantage (like 15-20k), AND at least one rax has been taken. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2649 Posts
It seems like many people agree on that there are a lot of games that drag on but at the same time a concede option would impact Dota in a bad way. But what if there is a third option? In martial arts (at least kickboxing) most people think there are two ways to win. You either knock your opponent out, or you win on points. But there is a third variety that is much rarer. In sweden it's called "utklassning", "getting outclassed". It's basically the ref calling the game because you clearly can't defend yourself. It basically only happens in two situations a) it's a low level match and while both figthers are beginners they are in no way equal and one simply outclasses the other so much it's not even funny b) one figther gets so tired that he can't even keep his guard up but refuses to give up (and his corner doesn't throw in the towel). How about something similar in Dota? What if there was a win condition that was just based on your team getting out classed so bad that you can't possibly win. You won't be able to see how close you are to winning but if all conditions are meet the game would end early in your favour. For win conditions, it could look something like this. To win early you would need to: Buildings: Have destroyed at least 5 enemy structures. Not have lost more than 5 structures. Not lost a structure the last 10 minutes. Levels Total team level is at least 10 levels above opposing team (on average 2 levels higher). Highest level hero is at least 3 levels higher than highest level enemy hero. The opposing team has not earned more experience then you in the last three minutes. Gold Total team networth (gold and current items) are worth at least 25000 gold. Total team networth is at least triple that of opposing team. The opposing team has not earned more gold than you for at least three minutes. Creeps The enemy team has not killed Roshan in the last 10 minutes. These are just examples but the conditions would have to be so hard to get that a pro level game would NEVER be easier to end by meeting them instead of just killing the ancient. Poll: Would you like an additional victory condition? No (24) I'd rather be able to surrender instead. (19) Yes (4) 47 total votes Your vote: Would you like an additional victory condition? (Vote): Yes | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
Or they could just make the spawn location invulnerable. If you're in it, there should be no way for you to get ganked. Pretty sure this would help at least a fair bit. People worry about their KDR too much. | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
if you are the 1 out of 5 ppl who never wants to surrender in a lol game, then maybe the problem isn't with the rest of the pubs but with you. also, right now i can rly only remember being annoyed with the surrender function when i was playing with friends who gave up too soon, not with pubs. | ||
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bakarin
Japan121 Posts
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On September 21 2012 01:34 bakarin wrote: You only get shitloads of leavers if you play in the lower brackets. So yeah all you have to do is get good ? There are dicks in every brackets. | ||
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MrLion
India93 Posts
A lot of anti-surrender mentality comes from the fact that people think the other 4 "noobs" on their team will want to surrender. They don't realise that in a modern matchmaking system, all five people are equally skilled, and if 5 similarly skilled people decide the game is lost, it is 99% lost. The LoL system is perfect, but most of the Dota players are simply stuck in the past. | ||
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
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wcLLg
United States281 Posts
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Appendix
Sweden979 Posts
On September 21 2012 01:30 Gandalf wrote: Some sort of requirements that need to be met along with 4 or 5 people agreeing that the game is lost could form a reasonably accurate method of conceding. Or they could just make the spawn location invulnerable. If you're in it, there should be no way for you to get ganked. Pretty sure this would help at least a fair bit. People worry about their KDR too much. Whatever those requirements would be people would find ways to grief their way to meeting them. It is better to make a system which can not be affected by the players then. If they make you invulnerable in the fountain there are many skills which are nerfed. How can people care about KDR when it is not displayed? One thought though. I have limited experience with HoN(~100 games), but I found there to be an unhealthy fixation with stats, because you have every single stat available about every player in the game through a mouseover. Couldn't this have an effect on the will to concede since if you're playing from behind, you're more likely to get further negative stats. You get into a mindset of mitigating the loss rather than trying to gain a win. Since almost all stats are hidden in Dota 2, is it not possible there might be a more sound attitude towards conceding? | ||
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