EPTLeaving games - Page 5
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chaosfreak11
Singapore367 Posts
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Aui_2000
Canada435 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323018 The main problem I have with concede is that 5/5 vote does not necessarily mean that all 5 players want to concede-; it'd be pretty stupid to pretend that social pressure doesn't exist even on the internet. I think that a concede option would just add an addition incentive for players to be abrasiveness/negative and the DotA community definitely does not need another source for that. I didn't play LoL or HoN, but for a dota2 microcosm of what concede would do in match making, look at any irc nadota league that has ever existed. As an occurrence frequent enough to make me dislike playing inhouse leagues, players will just spam !result 1 and stop playing even if games could still be won--especially with a match making system, it is pretty fair to assume/have hope that your opponents will make mistakes on the same level of the ones that put your team behind. And IHLs probably consist of the top ~5-10% of dota players based on relative skill (for anyone who has played an IHL: consider the total size of the player base before laughing at this). If the top 10% cannot effectively judge when a game completely cannot be won, then the other 90% will probably use the concede option even less effectively. As for people arguing that there are games that are completely beyond saving, I would respond by saying that if you play DotA to improve while having fun, then there are pretty much always things that can be worked on even in the most dismal of games. Concede would at best save a couple minutes of killing buildings in more evenish games and I've really only had 1 or 2 games that I can remember being fountain camped for more than 3 or 4 minutes out of 1400 games (I almost feel like diving the fountain after winning the game is a quasi sports celebration after scoring and not necessarily harmful). Plus, while purely speculative, I think that concede would probably make people even worse at playing from behind which, imo, would hinder long term player development; I really do think if people play every game as well as they can and to the very end, then they will improve a lot faster, especially if compared relative to if they were badgered into conceding half their games. | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
On September 20 2012 15:45 SirMilford wrote: Dude you can't argue about bad arguements then say you are being fountain camped for 15 minutes. Infact i challange ANYONE here to show me a replay where you are lanes down, after 30 minutes, where they camp your fountain for 15-20 minutes. Sure. I'll PM you next time it happens with the replay. I wouldn't be able to find replays of it currently since it'd be a lot of games to sift through, but it's definitely happened to me before. 20 minutes might be an exaggeration, but I've definitely waited 10+ minutes before. It's not just fountain-camping when it takes that long. It's hanging back out of the base, farming, killing Rosh over and over, etc. If you leave your base, you're dead. The simple fact is you don't need the concede faction becasue you can ALWAYS come back, i have come back from foutain camps before because our clinks killed their base. Sure it shouldn't happen but it can happen. If you want to have your comeback then just don't concede? People give up all the time in Dota and afk in the fountain, the concede doesn't hinder comebacks nor encourage people to give up when they otherwise wouldn't without a concede. The people that want to give up, will give up, with or without a concede. The problem with concedes is it gives the team a BENEFIT for giving up, If you lose a rax why wouldn't you therefor run away and let the second one fall? Game can be conceded then! Concede doesn't make players give up. It just gives them a way to visually express the fact that they have given up, and therefore makes it seem like the concede function is the REASON why they are giving up, when it really isn't. Like I said just before, players give up ALL THE TIME in Dota. It's just that rather than conceding, they afk in the pool or don't try anymore. Conceding doesn't give a benefit for you giving up. It gives a benefit of knowing that the game is over and being able to play another game more quickly. Currently the game punishes you for wanting to have a more fun experience with the game as a whole. It forces you to sit there and wait for as long as the other team wants to stall before they decide to kill your throne. Infact i would argue everyone that wants a concede for their time management shouldn't be playing dota to begin with. I accept a game is at least 1 hour long and figure out if i have an hour, sure if its a bad game i feel awful but i accept that and play the next day/later that night. So if people don't have too much free time on their hands, they shouldn't be allowed to have fun with a videogame? That's pretty dumb. Regardless, this thread should be closed because it won't change anyone's opinions. People who want a concede will always want one, and people who don't want a concede will always give vague, ideological reasons as to why it shouldn't be there (it forces people to give up, comebacks happen every single game, etc) | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
Not only that, but with a ff option, after a failed vote people who want to surrender will give up, making a hard to win game, unwinnable. You might require a 4/5 or a 5/5 vote, but 1 person is all it takes. If certain requirements need to be met (ie 2 rax down, X k/d ratio, etc) before they can ff, people will just not defend rax, or they won't participate in teamfights or hold back their ults or w/e until the condition is met. | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
On September 20 2012 16:57 LAN-f34r wrote: Go play a bot game, or play another game. DotA requires time. If you can't play a 1 hour fountain farming game, you can't play a 1 hour epic game either. You just don't want to. Sure, the games where the other team just sits outside your base farming suck. But I would rather have a game like that every so often, than have to persuade my team to constantly keep fighting every single game, even when I'm dominating. Not only that, but with a ff option, after a failed vote people who want to surrender will give up, making a hard to win game, unwinnable. You might require a 4/5 or a 5/5 vote, but 1 person is all it takes. If certain requirements need to be met (ie 2 rax down, X k/d ratio, etc) before they can ff, people will just not defend rax, or they won't participate in teamfights or hold back their ults or w/e until the condition is met. Not everyone plays Dota to try and practice and become a pro. Some people truly do play for fun. But I guess since we're this "hardcore" community where everyone thinks they're gonna be a pro someday, we don't care about the people who will be turned off by the fact that they are forced to sit around and wait for the other team to decide when they want to end the game. Fuck them, right? Dota is for hardcore players only who have hours upon hours of free time. And I edited this into my post above as you were posting this, but I'll say it again here, the concede function isn't what convinces people that they want to give up. It just gives them a way to visually express it. Players give up all the time in Dota games and either afk in the fountain or run out and "fight" the other team at raxes or whatever without really trying. A concede function isn't a cause of giving up, it's an effect of them giving up whether it's there or not. You're acting like if someone presses a concede button and the rest of his team votes it down, that's somehow going to magically change his attitude into giving up? He obviously wanted to give up with or without the concede being there, otherwise he wouldn't have voted it in the first place. If he actually stops playing the game after that, well, guess what, he probably would have done that even if the concede wasn't there. He's the player you see afk in the pool after being angry in team chat in the current Dota 2 without a concede option. | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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Ace1123
Philippines1187 Posts
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rM.YuuMei
Australia7 Posts
Have definitely had some comebacks or close games from turtling and getting a tonne of gold. I don't think a surrender option would be a bad thing so long as its all 5 players to agree, but I don't think it's needed in any case | ||
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Bswhunter
Australia954 Posts
If so, I think thats all the concede function we need. | ||
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Tryxtira
Sweden572 Posts
On September 20 2012 16:29 Aui_2000 wrote: As an occurrence frequent enough to make me dislike playing inhouse leagues, players will just spam !result 1 and stop playing even if games could still be won--especially with a match making system, it is pretty fair to assume/have hope that your opponents will make mistakes on the same level of the ones that put your team behind. This is for me the main reason not to have a concede option. I do not necessarily agree that IHL players cannot judge when the game is over, however, in my experience, if their own game goes badly and they have to play from behind, many people will rather give up and play another game instead, hoping that the early game will go better next time. I also think there is a problem with giving players the option to never play from behind. This is incredibly hard in Dota as well as in any game, but it requires a slightly different approach which you have to practice to get good at. You can easily compare with the mindset you have to have playing SC2 from behind. Maybe you need to play really careful and defend your third, maybe you have to take huge risks with a doomdrop. Anyway, you have to practice the situation to get good at it. This being said, I sometimes get really annoyed not being able to ff out of a 99% lost game. | ||
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zomgE
498 Posts
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Bloodash
Netherlands1384 Posts
in practice it would go like this: "A player has permanently left the game (started a new game so you're sure he wouldn't come back) Please wait 15 seconds for a new player to accept your game" A player who is in queue gets a message: Would you like to join an existing game as [hero] level xx ? Yes/No (continue searching) optional: if the player successfully finishes the game he gets bonus XP and extra chance for an item | ||
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
-it is unavailable until a certain point of time (30 minutes or so) or dominance of a team (20++ kills or so advantage for one team) is reached. -it can be turned on/off prior to starting a game. -conceding games gives you a higher chance to be matched with players who also conceded games. | ||
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sheaRZerg
United States613 Posts
I imagine I will come to get used to it. It is clear that with so many players there needs to be consequences for leaving haphazardly....and as a beginner its probably a good thing that I dont have the option.yet. Out of curiousity.....there are some details about the system I don't quite understand. What exactly is the status of the game in the situations where the "it is safe to leave the game" comes up? Is there a winner? Does it not affect the internal rankings? I was also curious whether the system tracks abandons if, say, it is a 5v5 that is made through the custom lobby with teams of friends. It certainly seems like conceding should be allowed in such non-pub, and especially tournament games. | ||
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Pocom
New Zealand30 Posts
So why do we need another concede function in addition to the existing one? Because too many people come from HoN/LoL and don't recognise it for what its for? Or maybe they want the criteria for concede lowered? Also even if a player abandons a lot its not like they can't play the game anymore, they can still find games just fine. To those with time constraints argueing for shorter games, you will have that option once the game comes out of beta, its simply called EM (Easy Mode) game mode, I am sure anyone from Dota1 remembers, as -apem was the most common game type by far in the during map version 4.xx to 6.xx. P.S I miss so many game modes, I can't wait to play another game of -ardm -omg, or -apomidpmscst, or apsh, ah the fun times I had. | ||
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Leru
Romania257 Posts
Hope a concede system similar to HoN will get implemented. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On September 20 2012 12:45 Ack1027 wrote: Tbh to any long time dota player concede is not even about being able to forfeit to neg the game and move onto the next one. It's the mentality that comes along with it.That's one of the core differences you can spot from hon/LoL players trying out dota. That's what you don't want in dota. Concede mentality. Maybe in high level games the lack of concede makes the losing team gel better and actually try harder for a comeback win. But at the level I play, "concede mentality" occurs frequently even without the concede option. People will give up, constantly message the enemy team to "end it fast", sit in the fountain to expedite the loss and fight/argue with allies who don't, and start feeding/griefing. If I were playing with people who actually TRIED for a comeback, I could live without a concede option. But thats not the case. The last 10-30 minutes of many games have been ruined for me because my team has given up and thus stopped playing properly, and because the enemy team is taking their sweet time to farm up 5 diving rapiers and get an extra 50 kills. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
If I were to choose between: 1) Play 40 losing games for the benefit of getting 1 comeback win, OR 2) Be able to concede 40 games you feel are clearly lost, but miss out on that 1 comeback win I would choose 2. Sure, getting a comeback win is a great feeling, but its not worth the agonizingly boring and prolonged endings to the 40 games I don't get comeback wins in. It just feels like an incredible waste of time. I don't have a problem playing out a losing game in an effort to turn it around, but thus far I haven't run into players who are capable of changing how they play / fixing the mistakes that put them behind in the first place, and its pretty clear theres no hope of winning. | ||
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BlitzerSC
Italy8800 Posts
In dota you can always come back . The QoP that was raping you 15 mins in the game will lose her power later on , if you manage to catch that super strong AM and kill him when he has no buyback then you can still win , if you win one teamfight in the late game then you have a chance to win . | ||
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