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Alrigth the thread was pretty good but most things that can be said has been said so I'm switching it up a bit.
It seems like many people agree on that there are a lot of games that drag on but at the same time a concede option would impact Dota in a bad way.
But what if there is a third option?
In martial arts (at least kickboxing) most people think there are two ways to win. You either knock your opponent out, or you win on points. But there is a third variety that is much rarer. In sweden it's called "utklassning", "getting outclassed".
It's basically the ref calling the game because you clearly can't defend yourself. It basically only happens in two situations
a) it's a low level match and while both figthers are beginners they are in no way equal and one simply outclasses the other so much it's not even funny
b) one figther gets so tired that he can't even keep his guard up but refuses to give up (and his corner doesn't throw in the towel).
How about something similar in Dota? What if there was a win condition that was just based on your team getting out classed so bad that you can't possibly win. You won't be able to see how close you are to winning but if all conditions are meet the game would end early in your favour.
Poll: Would you like an additional victory condition?No (24) 51% I'd rather be able to surrender instead. (19) 40% Yes (4) 9% 47 total votes Your vote: Would you like an additional victory condition? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): I'd rather be able to surrender instead.
For win conditions, it could look something like this.
To win early you would need to:
Buildings:
Have destroyed at least 5 enemy structures.
Not have lost more than 5 structures.
Not lost a structure the last 10 minutes.
Levels
Total team level is at least 10 levels above opposing team (on average 2 levels higher).
Highest level hero is at least 3 levels higher than highest level enemy hero.
The opposing team has not earned more experience then you in the last three minutes.
Gold
Total team networth (gold and current items) are worth at least 25000 gold.
Total team networth is at least triple that of opposing team.
The opposing team has not earned more gold than you for at least three minutes.
Creeps
The enemy team has not killed Roshan in the last 10 minutes.
These are just examples but the conditions would have to be so hard to get that a pro level game would NEVER be easier to end by meeting them instead of just killing the ancient.
Poll: Should there be a concede option?No (149) 59% Yes (102) 41% 251 total votes Your vote: Should there be a concede option? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Hello Dota forum. I bougth a beta key and started playing Dota 2 just a few days ago and I'm wondering what people think about leaving games.
I'm an old Starcraft player and I'm pretty firmly in the camp that once you have lost a game badly enough you concede, yet there is no option for this in Dota 2.
Similarly it can take like 20 minutes for a team of noobs like me to win a game that's clearly over (ie half of the enemy team has left).
Since I'm raised with the "if you lost gg and get out" school of thougth I do not stay in games when it's clear that they are over. Like if the enemies have destroyed every tower on the field and we can't touch theirs and their carry 3 hits everyone on our team and just shrugs of 5 people unloading on them. It's pointless to play, it's like being down 3 bases in sc and then loosing your army, there's NO reason to keep playing if the enemy could win even if they got a stroke and broke their arm at the same time.
But what is consensus on leaving? Is it BM,or is it OK?
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I think if you want to leave, then leave. You'll get the consequences.
User was warned for this post
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On September 20 2012 04:32 Torte de Lini wrote:
I think if you want to leave, then leave. You'll get the consequences.
What would those be?
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Low Priority.
User was warned for this post
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On September 20 2012 04:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Hello Dota forum. I bougth a beta key and started playing Dota 2 just a few days ago and I'm wondering what people think about leaving games.
I'm an old Starcraft player and I'm pretty firmly in the camp that once you have lost a game badly enough you concede, yet there is no option for this in Dota 2.
Similarly it can take like 20 minutes for a team of noobs like me to win a game that's clearly over (ie half of the enemy team has left).
Since I'm raised with the "if you lost gg and get out" school of thougth I do not stay in games when it's clear that they are over. Like if the enemies have destroyed every tower on the field and we can't touch theirs and their carry 3 hits everyone on our team and just shrugs of 5 people unloading on them. It's pointless to play, it's like being down 3 bases in sc and then loosing your army, there's NO reason to keep playing if the enemy could win even if they got a stroke and broke their arm at the same time.
But what is consensus on leaving? Is it BM,or is it OK?
Sorry, but you are bad and dont know when the game is over. Keep playing until you lose or suffer the consequences.
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Being down in SC2 can be considered alot different from being down in DOTA. There are lots of ways to get back in a game, or make an epic comeback. Having the ability to leave a game whenever you feel you've "lost" is detrimental to you and your team many times. Don't get me wrong, sometimes in a stomp you are definitely outplayed and have no chance to win, just hope your opponents make it quick.
When people have left the game and you're looking to finish the game quickly, usually just push mid as a team, or take a Roshan then push mid.
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Leaving is BM and in DotA we go by the you fight to the end mentality.
You joined a game with four others, as long as they want to play, so should you, since you started looking for a game.
Ontop of that i don't care about playing a lost game, because you know, i have fun playing the game regardless of winning or losing. If i can pull off some big plays while losing, then that's good enough for me.
I have 1 abandon which is due to power shortage, i do not plan on having that number increasing, i hate leavers with a passion.
I've had games where the enemy was ahead and we just turtled and the enemies eventually got cocky, lost a big fight with no buybacks and we rush their throne and win.
I have won games that i should never ever have won from a logical point of view.
Smoke ganks, sneaking roshan, split pushing and so on are all ways to get back into a game. Ontop of that you can still become a better player by playing from behind, your last hitting can still improve, so can your map awareness and general game sense.
Though if you feel that you need to leave once behind, go ahead and do so, you will be in low priority with people with the same mind-set which will save people who want to play to the end the trouble of Q'ing up into a game with you.
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You say you've been playing the game for a few days and somehow you're able to determine when a game is lost? I'm sorry but i don't believe it. Since you are probably just learning the basics right now, just play the game out and you'll be surprised that you can come back from situtations like the one you mentioned.
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If you leave you get abandons which leads to low priority queuing. Which isn't great
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Also keep in mind, if the other team has left the game, and received abandonment (5 minutes afk or dc). You do have the option to leave the game without any penalty, and unless you have destroyed the enemy barracks before that point the game doesn't count stat wise. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's whats been the assumption I've been under at least.)
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I kinda agree with the OP. I don't think individuals should just leave whenever because yes that sucks (ive been playing dota for a long time now), its great that the leavers problem has been mostly solved compared to back in the day. I still think there should be a way to concede as a team, even if its something like requires all 5 teammates to agree on, like in HoN but stricter.
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On September 20 2012 04:50 Shunjal wrote:
Also keep in mind, if the other team has left the game, and received abandonment (5 minutes afk or dc). You do have the option to leave the game without any penalty, and unless you have destroyed the enemy barracks before that point the game doesn't count stat wise. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's whats been the assumption I've been under at least.)
Stats don't count only if when someone leaves it says, "[so and so] has abandoned the game. No stats will be recorded for this game" However, after someone gets a leave you may leave as well without any penalty, even if stats are being recorded.
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If you want to leave, leave. You'll get into the low priority queue which takes longer to find a game and puts you with other leavers and people with high reports, i.e. feeders and the like.
Or fight to the end. If both of these options don't appeal to you, run around in your fountain until the game ends, which is exactly as boring as it sounds and may get you reported.
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Being behind is slightly different in DotA 2 than in Starcraft, a single successful gank or a good teamfight can turn a game around really fucking fast. When there is no way on earth you can come back, game should end in the following 5 minutes anyway so it's no big deal. One of the really annoying things however if when people go like "we lost 3 towers and are down 7 kills, it's obviously over" and then leave. It's not true and people should be able to play DotA from the beginning to the end. I can have fun even when we are loosing.
+ Show Spoiler +Since this thread will obviously turn into "concede or not" : my opinion is that concede is retarded.
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On September 20 2012 04:41 Spicy_Curry wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 04:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Hello Dota forum. I bougth a beta key and started playing Dota 2 just a few days ago and I'm wondering what people think about leaving games.
I'm an old Starcraft player and I'm pretty firmly in the camp that once you have lost a game badly enough you concede, yet there is no option for this in Dota 2.
Similarly it can take like 20 minutes for a team of noobs like me to win a game that's clearly over (ie half of the enemy team has left).
Since I'm raised with the "if you lost gg and get out" school of thougth I do not stay in games when it's clear that they are over. Like if the enemies have destroyed every tower on the field and we can't touch theirs and their carry 3 hits everyone on our team and just shrugs of 5 people unloading on them. It's pointless to play, it's like being down 3 bases in sc and then loosing your army, there's NO reason to keep playing if the enemy could win even if they got a stroke and broke their arm at the same time.
But what is consensus on leaving? Is it BM,or is it OK? Sorry, but you are bad and dont know when the game is over. Keep playing until you lose or suffer the consequences.
Really?
So being down something like 4 - 30 in KD, outleveled about 4 levels at least on all heroes, 2 guy on your team DC'ed and the enemy main carry has something like 5000+ more gold in items than then best on your team and you don't think I know that we are completly and utterly fucked?
Problem is it still takes 20 minutes for them to win since even if they have one great player and a few decent ones there is no coordination what so ever and they rather just run around and kill people than finish the game.
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If 2 people already left on your team, then you are free to leave, problem solved.
Not seeing your problem here.
Not in the mood for the whole concede or not discussion, so i'll just say this: Being able to concede will often have 4 people harassing one person to accept it and amplifies the defeatist mind-set some people have. It's very bad and i do not ever want it and i believe valve said they don't want it either, gladly.
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If there has been a DC you only have to wait for 5 minutes before you can leave the game as well, without any punishment.
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On September 20 2012 04:41 Spicy_Curry wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 04:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Hello Dota forum. I bougth a beta key and started playing Dota 2 just a few days ago and I'm wondering what people think about leaving games.
I'm an old Starcraft player and I'm pretty firmly in the camp that once you have lost a game badly enough you concede, yet there is no option for this in Dota 2.
Similarly it can take like 20 minutes for a team of noobs like me to win a game that's clearly over (ie half of the enemy team has left).
Since I'm raised with the "if you lost gg and get out" school of thougth I do not stay in games when it's clear that they are over. Like if the enemies have destroyed every tower on the field and we can't touch theirs and their carry 3 hits everyone on our team and just shrugs of 5 people unloading on them. It's pointless to play, it's like being down 3 bases in sc and then loosing your army, there's NO reason to keep playing if the enemy could win even if they got a stroke and broke their arm at the same time.
But what is consensus on leaving? Is it BM,or is it OK? Sorry, but you are bad and dont know when the game is over. Keep playing until you lose or suffer the consequences.
Really? That's all you've got to say, just a casual "madcuzbad" and then you're out?
I would tend to agree that you shouldn't leave games just to save a few minutes of your own time, no game is really un-winnable, especially against bad players. I've never come back from mega creeps but I've won games where I have 1 ranged rax left and the other team had better farm, purely because they became over-confident and streamed in 1 by 1.
However, I too am of the opinion that dota2 should have a concede function, of some variety. There were some inherent flaws with HoN's voting system (especially that it became really annoying when people would spam it). In my opinion the best way to create a concede system would be to give every player a switch they can flip every 10 seconds or something, that changes them from wanting to concede, or wanting to play it out. 4/5 minimum, maybe all 5 would be better. And it should wait like 15 seconds after enough players have agreed to surrender, with a graphic on the screen somewhere saying "concede incoming", before actually ending the game, to make sure that there's less/no rage concedes.
This would also be absolutely way fucking better for the pro scene than having to have the commentators ramble about random nonsense for 3 minutes while everyone disconnects in more 1 sided games. There's no reason why an esport game as advanced as dota2 should have inherent flaws like this.
edit: before anyone even responds to this, my last point stands regardless of pub games, valve should implement a smoother way for teams to exit games, this could be a feature enabled in custom games at the beginning of the match.
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On September 20 2012 05:12 Unleashing wrote:
If 2 people already left on your team, then you are free to leave, problem solved.
Not seeing your problem here.
Not in the mood for the whole concede or not discussion, so i'll just say this: Being able to concede will often have 4 people harassing one person to accept it and amplifies the defeatist mind-set some people have. It's very bad and i do not ever want it and i believe valve said they don't want it either, gladly.
Ah, that would be why I only have one abandoned game then. 
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On September 20 2012 05:09 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 04:41 Spicy_Curry wrote:On September 20 2012 04:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Hello Dota forum. I bougth a beta key and started playing Dota 2 just a few days ago and I'm wondering what people think about leaving games.
I'm an old Starcraft player and I'm pretty firmly in the camp that once you have lost a game badly enough you concede, yet there is no option for this in Dota 2.
Similarly it can take like 20 minutes for a team of noobs like me to win a game that's clearly over (ie half of the enemy team has left).
Since I'm raised with the "if you lost gg and get out" school of thougth I do not stay in games when it's clear that they are over. Like if the enemies have destroyed every tower on the field and we can't touch theirs and their carry 3 hits everyone on our team and just shrugs of 5 people unloading on them. It's pointless to play, it's like being down 3 bases in sc and then loosing your army, there's NO reason to keep playing if the enemy could win even if they got a stroke and broke their arm at the same time.
But what is consensus on leaving? Is it BM,or is it OK? Sorry, but you are bad and dont know when the game is over. Keep playing until you lose or suffer the consequences. Really? So being down something like 4 - 30 in KD, outleveled about 4 levels at least on all heroes, 2 guy on your team DC'ed and the enemy main carry has something like 5000+ more gold in items than then best on your team and you don't think I know that we are completly and utterly fucked? Problem is it still takes 20 minutes for them to win since even if they have one great player and a few decent ones there is no coordination what so ever and they rather just run around and kill people than finish the game.
If two guys (ore even one only) on your team are DCed for more than 5 min, you can freely leave the game . Otherwise, keep trying to win.
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Brazil1429 Posts
On September 20 2012 05:09 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 04:41 Spicy_Curry wrote:On September 20 2012 04:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Hello Dota forum. I bougth a beta key and started playing Dota 2 just a few days ago and I'm wondering what people think about leaving games.
I'm an old Starcraft player and I'm pretty firmly in the camp that once you have lost a game badly enough you concede, yet there is no option for this in Dota 2.
Similarly it can take like 20 minutes for a team of noobs like me to win a game that's clearly over (ie half of the enemy team has left).
Since I'm raised with the "if you lost gg and get out" school of thougth I do not stay in games when it's clear that they are over. Like if the enemies have destroyed every tower on the field and we can't touch theirs and their carry 3 hits everyone on our team and just shrugs of 5 people unloading on them. It's pointless to play, it's like being down 3 bases in sc and then loosing your army, there's NO reason to keep playing if the enemy could win even if they got a stroke and broke their arm at the same time.
But what is consensus on leaving? Is it BM,or is it OK? Sorry, but you are bad and dont know when the game is over. Keep playing until you lose or suffer the consequences. Really? So being down something like 4 - 30 in KD, outleveled about 4 levels at least on all heroes, 2 guy on your team DC'ed and the enemy main carry has something like 5000+ more gold in items than then best on your team and you don't think I know that we are completly and utterly fucked? Problem is it still takes 20 minutes for them to win since even if they have one great player and a few decent ones there is no coordination what so ever and they rather just run around and kill people than finish the game.
If a player abandons the game (a red message appears on the screen telling that they abandoned the game, don't mistake it with disconnect), then the game is safe to leave. But if no one abandoned, the game is not safe to leave. If you leave, you'll get into the low priority at MM, and leaving is kinda BM.
Don't compare calling GG in Dota 2 to SC2. In SC you're alone to decide. On Dota 2 there are other four people playing with you, and in MM there's no captain or hierarchy between the players. That means no one is more important or valuable than anyone. You should try as best as possible to experiment the game as a social experience, and you should try as best as possible to find ways to come back in a game. Not only because the results can be really spectacular, but also to respect your mates and the opponents.
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Well to be fair they do need to add a concede, it's pretty shit if you are stomping or they are stomping they have to wait like 10-15mins longer to push and end the game.
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From what I've seen, some people try to bait others to leave once they belive the game is lost by dc and wait almost 5 min and reconnect at last possible moment, some times people leave between 4-2 minutes left and get the abandon instead of the one who should have, in which case I usually just report the guy doing it as abusing the system (as in it's not just power outage or anything, but they just afk until one of the baited has abandoned).
Of course that doesn't work well in case they have sensible players and pause for minute or two and stay in game until the abandon message.
If you are playing with group or have people who agree on everyone leaving it's non-issue, as if you have all left before the abandon, it takes 30s for the game to default the other team as winner and there will be no abandons issued.
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It's your choice to leave of course, but I would suggest that you and all the other newbies to play out the game. Even if it is lost you can still play the game out and just gain more experience. You kind of get something out of every game you play even if you don't think about it. You work on your hero control and you get better feel for attack animations and spells the more you use them, micro and positoning in fights, finger speed etc etc.
And at your level you will win soooooo many games that are "over" by just continue playing becaues your opponents will be bad and will let you guys back into the game so many times it isn't even funny.
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You can argue as muh as you want , but Icefrog said that he won't add a concede function to the game . Most of the people agree with him .
If you think that you lost the game then just leave , otherwise shut the fuck up and keep playing.
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One single person leaving a game ruins it and wastes the time of 9 other people
I hate leavers with a passion.
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On September 20 2012 05:31 BlitzerSC wrote:
You can argue as muh as you want , but Icefrog said that he won't add a concede function to the game . Most of the people agree with him .
If you think that you lost the game then just leave , otherwise shut the fuck up and keep playing.
I lol'd :D
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On September 20 2012 05:06 ChrisXIV wrote:
Or fight to the end. If both of these options don't appeal to you, run around in your fountain until the game ends, which is exactly as boring as it sounds and may get you reported.
This will actually get you an abandon after 5 minutes. Abandons are XP-based, not player-control based. I.e. you have to see action or else you will get an abandon. If you really want to give up, go to the jungle and farm neutrals!
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On September 20 2012 05:32 BeanerBurrito wrote:
One single person leaving a game ruins it and wastes the time of 9 other people
I hate leavers with a passion.
Exactly. In SC where its 1v1 no prob, but in dota you are giving up and wasting 4 other peoples time because most people want to concede as soon as they feel its going south.
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On top of all what has been said. Leave early and you never learn how to play with a deficit.
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Its not about leaving early. No one who has played SC would leave early.
But I just lost a game that was over and it took 17 minutes (I counted) for the opposing team to kill us.
That's a loooooooooong time.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
Can someone please make a good post in this thread? Holy shit
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I stopped leaving games and really changed myy mind about how dota 2 games outcome can really go one way or the other no matter what.
Here I was playing Dazzle, 35 minutes in we were getting owned left and right and I had to leave in 10 minutes. I went into the shower to come back 10 minutes later to see that we were winning. After 2 lost team fights in which we didn't seem to do anything wrong I decided to go solve my business in the city, only to come back 1 hour later to see that they've won the game in 4. >.>
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United States4714 Posts
It doesn't matter how long it takes for the enemy team to finish you. Dota is a team game, when you leave you are ruining the game for your teammates who may have wanted to keep trying.
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On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Its not about leaving early. No one who has played SC would leave early.
But I just lost a game that was over and it took 17 minutes (I counted) for the opposing team to kill us.
That's a loooooooooong time.
17 minutes from what point?
I've had games where my team was up in kills by about double and a few towers and they were calling gg at like 15 minutes, but they played on and had better team fight heroes and were able to come back with some bad fights from my team. It turned into a pretty even game in the end.
If your whole team really just wants the game to end you can just sit in the fountain and just ask them to finish and most people will, but few games start out as 2-30 stomps and don't end soon. Comebacks are fairly common from what I have seen.
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On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Its not about leaving early. No one who has played SC would leave early.
But I just lost a game that was over and it took 17 minutes (I counted) for the opposing team to kill us.
That's a loooooooooong time.
id say if you're ready to play a good game of dota have at least 45 minutes and probably closer to 60 minutes free
good games don't usually end in 20 minutes or even 30 minutes.
If the enemy team isn't currently inside your base while all your teams heroes are dead, i don't think you can start counting down and saying "the game is over now"
There are times when the enemy team is very far ahead, but in dota the longer the game goes the closer the two teams become. In the late game when your carry is farmed it literally only takes one lost fight to push a rax or a throne, comebacks become more and more easily accessible the longer the game of dota goes.
By giving up early when you "think" you've lost but you're actually just behind, you are preventing yourself from reaching the point in the game where your comeback is more likely to happen.
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Lol as many times as I think games are over they prove time and time again that I am wrong! We were getting fountain camped one game... managed to come back with a sick blink ravage and black hole. Wiped their team, only two had buyback and we proceeded to win
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On September 20 2012 06:14 DeltaX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Its not about leaving early. No one who has played SC would leave early.
But I just lost a game that was over and it took 17 minutes (I counted) for the opposing team to kill us.
That's a loooooooooong time. 17 minutes from what point? I've had games where my team was up in kills by about double and a few towers and they were calling gg at like 15 minutes, but they played on and had better team fight heroes and were able to come back with some bad fights from my team. It turned into a pretty even game in the end. If your whole team really just wants the game to end you can just sit in the fountain and just ask them to finish and most people will, but few games start out as 2-30 stomps and don't end soon. Comebacks are fairly common from what I have seen.
Game ended at 45 minutes so at the ~28 minute mark.
I had an even worse game now when 2 of the enemy players dropped asap.
Can you leave a game where the enemy discs as well? Because if there's one thing worse than loosing when your players leave it's winning when their players leave.
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On September 20 2012 06:41 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:14 DeltaX wrote:On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Its not about leaving early. No one who has played SC would leave early.
But I just lost a game that was over and it took 17 minutes (I counted) for the opposing team to kill us.
That's a loooooooooong time. 17 minutes from what point? I've had games where my team was up in kills by about double and a few towers and they were calling gg at like 15 minutes, but they played on and had better team fight heroes and were able to come back with some bad fights from my team. It turned into a pretty even game in the end. If your whole team really just wants the game to end you can just sit in the fountain and just ask them to finish and most people will, but few games start out as 2-30 stomps and don't end soon. Comebacks are fairly common from what I have seen. Game ended at 45 minutes so at the ~28 minute mark. I had an even worse game now when 2 of the enemy players dropped asap. Can you leave a game where the enemy discs as well? Because if there's one thing worse than loosing when your players leave it's winning when their players leave.
heh, you got screwed over by leavers and that made it "an even worse game" ^^
if the game has a single person abandon it (disconnected for 5 minutes) you can leave at any time without getting an abandon, however if you play it out you will get battle points.
The message of this thread is that leavers ruin games, end of story.
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If you think the game is over it doesn't really mean your team thinks that the game is over. I have seen incredible come backs and I have even experienced a few amazing comebacks. If you think the game is over you should just try to have fun. If your whole team thinks that the game is over I would suggest just asking the other team to just push it in and say you won't defend. Otherwise you should just keep trying/playing
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On September 20 2012 06:46 BeanerBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:41 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On September 20 2012 06:14 DeltaX wrote:On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Its not about leaving early. No one who has played SC would leave early.
But I just lost a game that was over and it took 17 minutes (I counted) for the opposing team to kill us.
That's a loooooooooong time. 17 minutes from what point? I've had games where my team was up in kills by about double and a few towers and they were calling gg at like 15 minutes, but they played on and had better team fight heroes and were able to come back with some bad fights from my team. It turned into a pretty even game in the end. If your whole team really just wants the game to end you can just sit in the fountain and just ask them to finish and most people will, but few games start out as 2-30 stomps and don't end soon. Comebacks are fairly common from what I have seen. Game ended at 45 minutes so at the ~28 minute mark. I had an even worse game now when 2 of the enemy players dropped asap. Can you leave a game where the enemy discs as well? Because if there's one thing worse than loosing when your players leave it's winning when their players leave. heh, you got screwed over by leavers and that made it "an even worse game" ^^ if the game has a single person abandon it (disconnected for 5 minutes) you can leave at any time without getting an abandon, however if you play it out you will get battle points. The message of this thread is that leavers ruin games, end of story.
Yes that may be the messege of the thread but the point of the thread was me arguing for an option to GG.
Yes leavers ruin shit, I realise this to. Most pub games end because someone leaves. I never leave a game first but I also feel frustrated to be in a loopsided game, regardless of if I lose OR win.
I'd much rather just be able to "GG" out of it or accept a GG from the enemy. You could put all kinds of restrictions on it (must kill all outer towers, game over 20 minutes, everyone must vote on it completly hidden etc) but it would be nice.
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I detest concede option. Look at what it did to LoL and HoN. If you play those games at all, you will see tons and tons and tons and tons (ALOT) of people who will say "surrender asap omg we're down 5 kills gg". That crap is bullshit and frankly, I don't want it coming over to DotA more than it naturally will.
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I'm against the concede option.
I'm in the camp of if you want to leave then leave. I have 18 abandons in about 1000 games played. If a game is bad enough and I think its going to draw out for no reason then I leave. Sometimes your team randoms 4 terrible melee heroes and then feeds them to the enemy. After about 20 minutes and a score of 30-10 then sometimes its better to just take off and try another game.
I can do that about once a week with no consequences so I think the system workrs fine.
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I'm definately against conceding. Sometimes 1 person on a team thinks it's concede time and just stops playing alltogether and keeps trying to surrender, other times it just ruins alot of the fun. Remember playing LoL having a fairly good start and people calling ggs at 20 minute mark before the game hits its stride.
Sometimes it sucks games dragging out sometimes it's awesome lol, wouldn't want it any other way
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My only problem with the lack of a surrender option is that a lot of times the enemy team will just refuse to take ancient and start camping fountain for a good 10 minutes. Normally if I'm Q'ing as 5 then we all just leave, but in pub games you can't be sure you won't get an abandon.
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On September 20 2012 06:13 Mig wrote:
It doesn't matter how long it takes for the enemy team to finish you. Dota is a team game, when you leave you are ruining the game for your teammates who may have wanted to keep trying.
This is how I see it too.
Sure it sucks sometimes, especially if it's your teammates fault that you're on the losing in end, - I take that back it's worse when it's because of your own mistakes you're losing, but fucking take it !
Often you can win, even if it seems impossible. A couple good fights and some huge plays and yes, you game might be back in your court instead.
So no, don't leave, play on even if you don't want to.
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i leave a soon as more than one person starts typing in cyrillic
no joke
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On September 20 2012 06:49 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:46 BeanerBurrito wrote:On September 20 2012 06:41 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On September 20 2012 06:14 DeltaX wrote:On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Its not about leaving early. No one who has played SC would leave early.
But I just lost a game that was over and it took 17 minutes (I counted) for the opposing team to kill us.
That's a loooooooooong time. 17 minutes from what point? I've had games where my team was up in kills by about double and a few towers and they were calling gg at like 15 minutes, but they played on and had better team fight heroes and were able to come back with some bad fights from my team. It turned into a pretty even game in the end. If your whole team really just wants the game to end you can just sit in the fountain and just ask them to finish and most people will, but few games start out as 2-30 stomps and don't end soon. Comebacks are fairly common from what I have seen. Game ended at 45 minutes so at the ~28 minute mark. I had an even worse game now when 2 of the enemy players dropped asap. Can you leave a game where the enemy discs as well? Because if there's one thing worse than loosing when your players leave it's winning when their players leave. heh, you got screwed over by leavers and that made it "an even worse game" ^^ if the game has a single person abandon it (disconnected for 5 minutes) you can leave at any time without getting an abandon, however if you play it out you will get battle points. The message of this thread is that leavers ruin games, end of story. Yes that may be the messege of the thread but the point of the thread was me arguing for an option to GG. Yes leavers ruin shit, I realise this to. Most pub games end because someone leaves. I never leave a game first but I also feel frustrated to be in a loopsided game, regardless of if I lose OR win. I'd much rather just be able to "GG" out of it or accept a GG from the enemy. You could put all kinds of restrictions on it (must kill all outer towers, game over 20 minutes, everyone must vote on it completly hidden etc) but it would be nice.
My personal feeling towards concede is that if it's based on time it is a horrible idea
If for example you could only concede after losing two sets of raxes and all towers outside of base, i might be ok with it, but simply conceding at 25 minutes is the worst thing that could be implemented.
But as we've already said, just leaving is bad, and in my opinion unacceptable.
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I kind of hate the elitist mentality that paints the concede function as taboo.
There is a distinct difference between thinking you lost, but having the possibility to comeback, and having all 5 of your teamates agree it's over and say "waiting in fountain just end it". The latter usually results in the other team fucking around for 20 minutes before actually ending it. It's also a bit insulting to assume that a team is incapable of deciding on their own when they have collectively lost and are ready to move onto the next game.
Some arguements that existed against a HoN style concede:
- People vote kick the player who refuses to concede
This cannot happen since vote kick does not exist in Dota 2
- It premotes a defeatist attitude
Not having concede does not magically produce an enviroment devoid of defeatists. In fact, it makes everyone else suffer for longer when they refuse to play properly as a result.
- Noobs will not learn end game and will develop bad habits
A system could be worked out to addressing timing the option is made available as well as "unlocking" advanced games at a certain Dota level (now that this system has been introduced)
- Your team may want to continue playing
That's what the unanimous decision is for. You prevent spamming the vote by putting a cap of once per game in.
This game can certainly exist without a concede option (as it already demonstrates). I just think less time would be wasted if a reasonable, consensus driven function was introduced.
For refrence I have:
350 games played and 0 abandons in Dota 2
450 games played in HoN
I am not a quitter in Dota, please do not mistake my post as a confession.
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On September 20 2012 07:46 Arcticc wrote:
I kind of hate the elitist mentality that paints the concede function as taboo.
There is a distinct difference between thinking you lost, but having the possibility to comeback, and having all 5 of your teamates agree it's over and say "waiting in fountain just end it". The latter usually results in the other team fucking around for 20 minutes before actually ending it. It's also a bit insulting to assume that a team is incapable of deciding on their own when they have collectively lost and are ready to move onto the next game.
Some arguements that existed against a HoN style concede:
- People vote kick the player who refuses to concede
This cannot happen since vote kick does not exist in Dota 2
- It premotes a defeatist attitude
Not having concede does not magically produce an enviroment devoid of defeatists. In fact, it makes everyone else suffer for longer when they refuse to play properly as a result.
- Noobs will not learn end game and will develop bad habits
A system could be worked out to addressing timing the option is made available as well as "unlocking" advanced games at a certain Dota level (now that this system has been introduced)
- Your team may want to continue playing
That's what the unanimous decision is for. You prevent spamming the vote by putting a cap of once per game in.
This game can certainly exist without a concede option (as it already demonstrates). I just think less time would be wasted if a reasonable, consensus driven function was introduced.
For refrence I have:
350 games played and 0 abandons in Dota 2
450 games played in HoN
I am not a quitter in Dota, please do not mistake my post as a confession.
There is a unanimous concede option. If all 5 members of your team leave the game, it ends. It is essentially the same as having a concede option, but only available once. If someone declines it, you are fucked in both scenarios.
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You are better without concede.
For a few games where you are completly stomped and you're against retards who don't want to end it, your gain is being able to play a lot of games starting badly without having to see the concede thing flooded as much as possible by bad players who always assume it's lost when it's 0/5.
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I think there should be a concede button, but only have it in rare cases where a system can recognize the game is nearly impossible to come back from. This will only be in very extreme cases though so not every game will have a concede button, but it helps people that just want to que quickly so no time is wasted in just a massive stomp. I'd say games like 10-30 maybe even more would be reasonable for a concede button.
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HoN concede was silly, and made it very easy to get some quick wins when leveling up smurfs. Pick highly aggressive early game lineup, gank like a madman. Watch the other team cry and call concede at 15. Next game gogo.
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On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Can you leave a game where the enemy discs as well? Because if there's one thing worse than loosing when your players leave it's winning when their players leave.
If you get the red "The game is safe to leave" text, shown in the image below, you can leave the game without getting an abandon.
+ Show Spoiler [Image] +
And about the concede option, it will only make the game worse imo. I was initially for the option and couldn't really see why they wouldn't implement it, but over time I have realized how much better off dota 2 is without it. Firstly, you get to witness all the epic comebacks that happens in dota, despite being in a situation were it should be impossible to win, and the entire team would have surrendered if the option existed. And while you also sometimes gets long dragged out stomp, the feeling of winning an unwinnable game makes it all worth it. In general, people tend to give up way to early. And lastly we don't have to play with people who tries to bully a surrender through the moment they give first blood away, or simply just do a "SURR OR I AFK!" move. The possibility to surrender a game makes people give up, or spreads a negative attitude to the game if you are on the losing side.
The issue has already been debated endlessly on the dota 2 developer forum (to a point where they don't allow new posts on the matter), feel free to check it out if you want more points for and against.
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Yeah, there should be a 5/5 surrender option.
Especially when we're getting crushed and the enemy's not attacked, dragging a game won at 20min until 1 hour with having me just running away from their team / dying repeatedly is incredibly useless and a complete waste of time. It'd be okay if I could make my graphics card calm down during the time while I read visual novels or something but having the fan wroom wroom even with a browser window on top of the game...
On September 20 2012 08:54 Phyxx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Can you leave a game where the enemy discs as well? Because if there's one thing worse than loosing when your players leave it's winning when their players leave. If you get the red "The game is safe to leave" text, shown in the image below, you can leave the game without getting an abandon. + Show Spoiler [Image] +And about the concede option, it will only make the game worse imo. I was initially for the option and couldn't really see why they wouldn't implement it, but over time I have realized how much better off dota 2 is without it. Firstly, you get to witness all the epic comebacks that happens in dota, despite being in a situation were it should be impossible to win, and the entire team would have surrendered if the option existed. And while you also sometimes gets long dragged out stomp, the feeling of winning an unwinnable game makes it all worth it. In general, people tend to give up way to early. And lastly we don't have to play with people who tries to bully a surrender through the moment they give first blood away, or simply just do a "SURR OR I AFK!" move. The possibility to surrender a game makes people give up, or spreads a negative attitude to the game if you are on the losing side. The issue has already been debated endlessly on the dota 2 developer forum (to a point where they don't allow new posts on the matter), feel free to check it out if you want more points for and against.
If it's a 5/5 surrender all you need to do is never surrender if you like the comebacks.
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All these people talking about how a concede option makes the game worse are engaging in extremely idealistic thinking. DotA is a game whose design fundamentally allows for snowballing. Arguing that you can win 5% of the games where you're behind 20-5 ignores that not only do such comebacks require specific team comps, that 5% chance shouldn't be forced on us. The worst part is that in some games (including one last night, worst game I've played in my life) you do badly enough that even getting in creep EXP range will result in feeding. Any action at that point is reportable!
I am well aware that they will never implement a concede function. I just wish they would acknowledge how much worse they are making the game because of that.
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On September 20 2012 09:05 Shikyo wrote:Yeah, there should be a 5/5 surrender option. Especially when we're getting crushed and the enemy's not attacked, dragging a game won at 20min until 1 hour with having me just running away from their team / dying repeatedly is incredibly useless and a complete waste of time. It'd be okay if I could make my graphics card calm down during the time while I read visual novels or something but having the fan wroom wroom even with a browser window on top of the game... Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 08:54 Phyxx wrote:On September 20 2012 06:02 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Can you leave a game where the enemy discs as well? Because if there's one thing worse than loosing when your players leave it's winning when their players leave. If you get the red "The game is safe to leave" text, shown in the image below, you can leave the game without getting an abandon. + Show Spoiler [Image] +And about the concede option, it will only make the game worse imo. I was initially for the option and couldn't really see why they wouldn't implement it, but over time I have realized how much better off dota 2 is without it. Firstly, you get to witness all the epic comebacks that happens in dota, despite being in a situation were it should be impossible to win, and the entire team would have surrendered if the option existed. And while you also sometimes gets long dragged out stomp, the feeling of winning an unwinnable game makes it all worth it. In general, people tend to give up way to early. And lastly we don't have to play with people who tries to bully a surrender through the moment they give first blood away, or simply just do a "SURR OR I AFK!" move. The possibility to surrender a game makes people give up, or spreads a negative attitude to the game if you are on the losing side. The issue has already been debated endlessly on the dota 2 developer forum (to a point where they don't allow new posts on the matter), feel free to check it out if you want more points for and against. If it's a 5/5 surrender all you need to do is never surrender if you like the comebacks.
Then get flamed for the rest of the game because I still think we might win this ? Or have a game end suddenly because the other team doesn't realize it's normal for them to loose people to ganks and towers when playing vs Tiny/Lesh ?
Due to the lack of concede option, a lot of people play it out and just don't whine about it. You can have the occasional dude who likes to say "this is over" again and again, the dude that just leaves and the dude that says "fuck you I'm buying courier" but I haven't encountered the last two types in a long time. The fact that the option exists actually encourage people to play the game without moaning, since they have no choice but to do so. It forces people to play it out and see what happens. On the contrary if there is a surrender button and I keep voting no, my team hates me, wants to stop playing and starts dicking around because they can actually have the game end right now. If the button is not there, there is no choice but to play.
THE ONLY SURRENDER BUTTON I CAN ACCEPT (not that my approval means a lot but w/e) is the following : A concede button that all members must agree to when someone leaves (not disconnects, abandon/leave ) the game, so you don't actually have to play the rest of the game 4v5, which is not a game of DotA.
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Also, if you leave games I think the matchmaking system queues you up with other leavers, rather than people with barely any leaves So it's your choice really.
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I liked the idea I think I read here where everyone has this box you can check if you are ready to surrender. If you check this box no messages will be sent, nobody will be notified, but if a whole team has checked it, the team concedes. If someone just checks the box and stops playing it would be really easy to recognise if you report him. I really dont like the way it is in HoN though where it is a loud announcement saying "LETS GIVE UP" and I am very split on the topic in general. I like to think there are functional ways to introduce it.
Also, dont leave games.
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Played LoL, HoN, and Dota 2, and I think the option to concede is overall better for these games. Its true that there are obviously some winnable games that get ended too soon, but generally speaking the concede option is used only when the game is already over. There was also very little of this harassing one guy to concede thing people are suggesting, lol.
Furthermore, being in a losing position means your team has made certain mistakes that have put them behind. Its generally very hard to get your team playing differently to win the game. I can see this happening with a decent skilled 5 man premade, but in solo queue pub games, nobody is going to listen to you, and players generally continue to make the mistakes that gave the enemy the lead.
In Dota 2, on the other hand, theres no concede option so you have to play it out, but that doesn't stop people from mentally giving up. They will stop trying, sit in the fountain, message the enemy team to "end it fast". Often 2-3 players will keep playing, the rest are sitting in the fountain fighting with them to stop defending.
I feel almost every single one of my games has gone on longer than it should. Theres a point in every game where it is clearly over. Maybe that point is when two lanes are down and the opponent team has a massive gold and exp lead. But the game will still drag on for another 10 minutes because they want to roshan, and because, instead of ending the game, they want to farm you at the spawn site to buff up their kdr. The last 5-15 minutes of pretty much every game is incredibly boring, because its one overfed team trying to fit in as many kills as they can before their creeps win the game for them.
HoNs concede system was pretty good, I would like to see something similar introduced in dota2.
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i like having no concede. if the game is absolutely terrible and the game seems like it will drag on for another 30 minutes, i'll just abandon. i'm pretty sure you can abandon like once a day or once every two days with no consequences.
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Brazil1429 Posts
I think concede would only work for team MM, where a captain has authority to accept that his team lost.
On solo MM, where there's no team playing but a bunch of players, a concede system only leads to flaming. People will always disagree if a game is lost or not.
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On the fence about concede.
On the one hand people just dropping when you're fractionally behind damn well drives me insane. Dying once or twice does not make for a failed game. Losing some early farm does not make for a failed game. Them getting the Aegis does not make for a failed game. Losing ONE teamfight does not make for a failed game. So don't damn well leave at that point.
On the other hand when you're in a game with everyone on your team 5 levels down, your carry with no farm and half a dozen kills to their 40 then you're not going to come back from that in a pub game. The skill disparity is so large that your pub team is just not going to get back into it since the opposition is flat out outplaying you. I've been on both sides of that equation and its incredibly annoying. But most pub teams will STILL take 20 minutes to finish in that kind of situation (again been on both sides of that equation...trying to rally your team for a walkover win can be surprisingly difficult). And the fact theres no clear concede option makes scenarios like that (not as uncommon as I'd like to be honest) really annoying and a massive waste of time. People just hang about in the fountain instead and mess about while waiting for the end and it still takes forever, longer if the opponent decides to fountain dive you rather than finishing.
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I don't want a concede button but leaving should be an option. Not only should leaving be an option but infinite pausing need to be removed from dota2 as well. The anti leaving thing in dota came about once the entire system became hosted by bots and you couldnt even lan anymore because people with the same ip address would be banned.
Anyone remember back when people would leave dotas then you got to use leaver items plus gold and it was fantastic, I want the game to go back to that because it was more fun. Recently I went 20-0 as mirana from having people leave early on , but not early enough to make the game not count.
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Absolutely no concede button.
Concede button is like a premature ejaculate for winning team. As soon as you outplayed the other team in laning phase, game is over. Beside, points are rewarded depend on how long you stay in the game. Having concede button will make leveling harder. ..."But the game is over. Team fed. I am bad"... STFU and play better next time.
Concede button is the next big thing from Ping function. In Heroes of Newerth, give First Blood? OMG, NOOB GAME IZ OVER I AFK FOUNTAIN CONCEDE 15 MINS. Courier dies? ZOMG CONCEDED. Concede button is just making people fucking quit for fucking retarded reason. Knowing that there is no way to leave the game unless you enjoyed being in low priority make peole fucking try to play for once instead of fucking spamming concede while fountain afk.
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I've played Dota 1, LoL, and Dota 2 pretty extensively. During my time in LoL I really felt like the /surrender option was used way too often without care of the game state at any ELO bracket. If the game went unfavorably then there was a good chance 3/5 would vote yes in favor of surrendering by 20 minutes, and that's a trend I'm very opposed to seeing in Dota. You can't judge the outcome of a Dota game in 20 or 30 minutes. Matchups are so volatile that it is entirely possible to have a comeback at any point in the game.
On the subject of leaving I feel the consequences are fine as is. Low priority is going to happen, and early abandonment already ensures you won't have a recorded loss to boot. Yeah it wastes time, but their low priority does mean there's no chance of them getting back in to your games anyway.
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I'd heard somewhere icefrog saw concede as a way out for pussies so he didn't want it in the game. Not sure if it's true or not.
Yes, sometimes a game is a complete lost cause and it sucks but oh well. If you're going to play DotA you have to learn to take your lumps. It's an unforgiving game full of unforgiving people. It sort of comes with the territory so we live with it.
However sometimes games seem like they're over but it's winnable. 1 enemy slipping up and getting ganked can mean you can suddenly push their base. A bad team fight and you can rax. I've won a fair share of games that should be completely unwinnable. Getting curb stomped and decide to pressure their bot tower for fun knowing (if the other team isn't retarded) they'll just push our top in and win the game. Except they actually stop their push top to port and defend a tier 2 tower against 2 heroes for no reason. Hmmm, suddenly we have a game here. They could have just ended the game but they chose not to to defend a push that didn't matter. Keep pressuring around the map and they keep defending for absolutely no logical reason. Oh shit, now our void is farmed, you just fucked up gg. A game we had absolutely no business winning but the other team threw the game down the toilet because they're idiots.
That shit can happen, more often than you might think. Just because you're losing doesn't necessarily mean the other team has any idea wtf they're doing. I'd say odds are they actually don't =P
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Surrender is poison to the team. Except in complete stomps, the player doing best will not want to surrender, and the player doing worst will. This leads to teams arguing --> BM. There are situations where surrender would be nice, but the downside of this is every other game being filled with (more) BM and hate.
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Tbh to any long time dota player concede is not even about being able to forfeit to neg the game and move onto the next one. It's the mentality that comes along with it.That's one of the core differences you can spot from hon/LoL players trying out dota.
That's what you don't want in dota. Concede mentality.
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hopefully it is never introduced, there is nothing worse than the CC15 spam that was in hon. I have not felt that a game has been unwinable in a long time, the trick is to bait the enemy into 1 by 1 fights. YOu would be surprised how easy a farmed AM drops when facing 5 heroes.
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On September 20 2012 12:46 SirMilford wrote:
hopefully it is never introduced, there is nothing worse than the CC15 spam that was in hon. I have not felt that a game has been unwinable in a long time, the trick is to bait the enemy into 1 by 1 fights. YOu would be surprised how easy a farmed AM drops when facing 5 heroes.
That's a thing with DotA in comparison to LoL actually... If that fed morphling decides to shotgun into your base because he got cocky because you have 2 rax down and enemy has all their base towers left and gets 5v1'd and dies without buyback, you actually are going to win the game because your team can just all push mid and destroy the throne. I think that those sorts of comebacks are much rarer in League of Legends for instance.
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I want a concede option. I have like 1,500+ hours in D2 and there comes a point where the heavy majority of the time you can predict an unwinnable game 20-25 mins into a game.Good players simply don't throw a heavy advantage or stronger lineup. Fighting till the throne dies is seriously overstated and becomes boring after a point.
But I know a concede option would do more harm than good. Most people will not have a massive understanding of the game and just CC because they died a few times early game. And there is always that one game from a hundred when you make a comeback.
Maybe there could be a ladder option for surrender-able games when the game gets out of beta and has a bigger playerpool, Although the standards currently are quite relaxed. You can safely leave one game per 24 hours without punishment if it's really dire and nobody on your team wants to play on. But that's seriously a last resort and not encouraged unless the enemy team are being dicks and refusing to end.
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The choice to concede should be there for sure - It just needs to be implemented right.
The conditions just need to be strict for it to work well. For example, the earliest concede possible is 25minutes and possibly more criteria.
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I think it needs the option. Some games are just impossible to win. However, I think it should be all of the conceding team's players admit defeat and at least 2 of the winning team agree on it. People say that it is possible to come back, and ya it is, do you really want to spend the extra 20 minutes on a hopeless cause? There are some games that just are not salvageable. Such as when your AA gets a hotd and a manta style, and then rages at the team because he lost a right click battle with a morphling.
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On September 20 2012 12:46 SirMilford wrote:
hopefully it is never introduced, there is nothing worse than the CC15 spam that was in hon. I have not felt that a game has been unwinable in a long time, the trick is to bait the enemy into 1 by 1 fights. YOu would be surprised how easy a farmed AM drops when facing 5 heroes.
How can people make such bad arguments like this? "The CC15 spam in hon was annoying so there shouldn't be a concede option at all in Dota"
Huh???
You do realize that they can change the way the concede function works to better implement it, right? It doesn't have to be CC at 15 minutes. It can be CC after 1 or 2 sets of rax are down, or CC after a certain amount of gold/exp advantage, or CC after 45 minutes, with any of these conditions still requiring all 5 players to vote it.
I've never understood why people from both sides of this discussion can consistently make such bad arguments for their side in every single thread that pops up about this issue. It really confuses me. Almost every point people make in this thread, and all other threads about this discussion, are so close-minded and address such arbitrary things that it's just ridiculous.
Yes, there should be a concede function. No, it shouldn't be the same as HoN's. HoN's is bad. It should be stricter. Maybe even MUCH stricter. But it should still be there, because without it, there is always going to be people abusing the fact that you can't leave the game before your throne dies without being punished. People will intentionally not end the game for 15-20 minutes sometimes when you can't even leave your pool without dying. But people also shouldn't be able to give up after 15 minutes into the game when they let a couple kills go away. There needs to be a middle-ground between those two things. And that middle-ground is having a concede function that is much stricter than what HoN's is.
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my brain hurts from reading some of these replies.
some people have very little freetime available and they want to spend it playing dota. 75% of games are decided within 20 minutes. why exactly do u have to waste 1hour for a game, including searching game, pauses and all that, when u can grind up to 4 games in 2 hours.
it makes alot of sense to have a ff button and id even be willing to pay to have it in the game at this point.
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On September 20 2012 13:25 Angra wrote:
because without it, there is always going to be people abusing the fact that you can't leave the game before your throne dies without being punished. People will intentionally not end the game for 15-20 minutes sometimes when you can't even leave your pool without dying.
To be fair a lot of this comes down to people claiming "gg, no defend" then defending pushes anyway. If you want the other team to push it let them push it and end. If you start dicking with them they're going to go farm for a while then come fountain camp the shit out of you.
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Under the following conditions:
30 mins game time
Score is 2:1 or higher for the winning team
Requires 5/5 votes
I would feel comfortable having a concede option in this case
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You can basically already concede. Once a rax is down, if all five players agree not to defend at all, the creeps alone can throne pretty rapidly even if the other team tries to draw it out. And before the rax is down it's never really over since games are often turned around when trying to highground. It just takes all 5 people on the team to have some self control and not kill the creeps.
e: but not having an explicit concede option is definitely a good thing for the reasons everyone else pointed out, mostly because of the mentality it will create.
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On September 20 2012 13:25 Angra wrote:
I've never understood why people from both sides of this discussion can consistently make such bad arguments for their side in every single thread that pops up about this issue. It really confuses me. Almost every point people make in this thread, and all other threads about this discussion, are so close-minded and address such arbitrary things that it's just ridiculous.
People will intentionally not end the game for 15-20 minutes sometimes when you can't even leave your pool without dying.
Dude you can't argue about bad arguements then say you are being fountain camped for 15 minutes.
Infact i challange ANYONE here to show me a replay where you are lanes down, after 30 minutes, where they camp your fountain for 15-20 minutes.
The simple fact is you don't need the concede faction becasue you can ALWAYS come back, i have come back from foutain camps before because our clinks killed their base. Sure it shouldn't happen but it can happen.
Infact i would argue everyone that wants a concede for their time management shouldn't be playing dota to begin with. I accept a game is at least 1 hour long and figure out if i have an hour, sure if its a bad game i feel awful but i accept that and play the next day/later that night.
The problem with concedes is it gives the team a BENEFIT for giving up, If you lose a rax why wouldn't you therefor run away and let the second one fall? Game can be conceded then!
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Valve can always implement a "Get out of Low Priority!" key in the store for $4.99.
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I find it sort of interesting how the poll differs from the last time this was done.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323018
The main problem I have with concede is that 5/5 vote does not necessarily mean that all 5 players want to concede-; it'd be pretty stupid to pretend that social pressure doesn't exist even on the internet. I think that a concede option would just add an addition incentive for players to be abrasiveness/negative and the DotA community definitely does not need another source for that.
I didn't play LoL or HoN, but for a dota2 microcosm of what concede would do in match making, look at any irc nadota league that has ever existed. As an occurrence frequent enough to make me dislike playing inhouse leagues, players will just spam !result 1 and stop playing even if games could still be won--especially with a match making system, it is pretty fair to assume/have hope that your opponents will make mistakes on the same level of the ones that put your team behind. And IHLs probably consist of the top ~5-10% of dota players based on relative skill (for anyone who has played an IHL: consider the total size of the player base before laughing at this). If the top 10% cannot effectively judge when a game completely cannot be won, then the other 90% will probably use the concede option even less effectively.
As for people arguing that there are games that are completely beyond saving, I would respond by saying that if you play DotA to improve while having fun, then there are pretty much always things that can be worked on even in the most dismal of games. Concede would at best save a couple minutes of killing buildings in more evenish games and I've really only had 1 or 2 games that I can remember being fountain camped for more than 3 or 4 minutes out of 1400 games (I almost feel like diving the fountain after winning the game is a quasi sports celebration after scoring and not necessarily harmful).
Plus, while purely speculative, I think that concede would probably make people even worse at playing from behind which, imo, would hinder long term player development; I really do think if people play every game as well as they can and to the very end, then they will improve a lot faster, especially if compared relative to if they were badgered into conceding half their games.
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On September 20 2012 15:45 SirMilford wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 13:25 Angra wrote:
I've never understood why people from both sides of this discussion can consistently make such bad arguments for their side in every single thread that pops up about this issue. It really confuses me. Almost every point people make in this thread, and all other threads about this discussion, are so close-minded and address such arbitrary things that it's just ridiculous.
People will intentionally not end the game for 15-20 minutes sometimes when you can't even leave your pool without dying. Dude you can't argue about bad arguements then say you are being fountain camped for 15 minutes. Infact i challange ANYONE here to show me a replay where you are lanes down, after 30 minutes, where they camp your fountain for 15-20 minutes.
Sure. I'll PM you next time it happens with the replay. I wouldn't be able to find replays of it currently since it'd be a lot of games to sift through, but it's definitely happened to me before. 20 minutes might be an exaggeration, but I've definitely waited 10+ minutes before. It's not just fountain-camping when it takes that long. It's hanging back out of the base, farming, killing Rosh over and over, etc. If you leave your base, you're dead.
The simple fact is you don't need the concede faction becasue you can ALWAYS come back, i have come back from foutain camps before because our clinks killed their base. Sure it shouldn't happen but it can happen.
If you want to have your comeback then just don't concede? People give up all the time in Dota and afk in the fountain, the concede doesn't hinder comebacks nor encourage people to give up when they otherwise wouldn't without a concede. The people that want to give up, will give up, with or without a concede.
The problem with concedes is it gives the team a BENEFIT for giving up, If you lose a rax why wouldn't you therefor run away and let the second one fall? Game can be conceded then!
Concede doesn't make players give up. It just gives them a way to visually express the fact that they have given up, and therefore makes it seem like the concede function is the REASON why they are giving up, when it really isn't. Like I said just before, players give up ALL THE TIME in Dota. It's just that rather than conceding, they afk in the pool or don't try anymore. Conceding doesn't give a benefit for you giving up. It gives a benefit of knowing that the game is over and being able to play another game more quickly. Currently the game punishes you for wanting to have a more fun experience with the game as a whole. It forces you to sit there and wait for as long as the other team wants to stall before they decide to kill your throne.
Infact i would argue everyone that wants a concede for their time management shouldn't be playing dota to begin with. I accept a game is at least 1 hour long and figure out if i have an hour, sure if its a bad game i feel awful but i accept that and play the next day/later that night.
So if people don't have too much free time on their hands, they shouldn't be allowed to have fun with a videogame? That's pretty dumb.
Regardless, this thread should be closed because it won't change anyone's opinions. People who want a concede will always want one, and people who don't want a concede will always give vague, ideological reasons as to why it shouldn't be there (it forces people to give up, comebacks happen every single game, etc)
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Go play a bot game, or play another game. DotA requires time. If you can't play a 1 hour fountain farming game, you can't play a 1 hour epic game either. You just don't want to. Sure, the games where the other team just sits outside your base farming suck. But I would rather have a game like that every so often, than have to persuade my team to constantly keep fighting every single game, even when I'm dominating.
Not only that, but with a ff option, after a failed vote people who want to surrender will give up, making a hard to win game, unwinnable. You might require a 4/5 or a 5/5 vote, but 1 person is all it takes. If certain requirements need to be met (ie 2 rax down, X k/d ratio, etc) before they can ff, people will just not defend rax, or they won't participate in teamfights or hold back their ults or w/e until the condition is met.
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On September 20 2012 16:57 LAN-f34r wrote:
Go play a bot game, or play another game. DotA requires time. If you can't play a 1 hour fountain farming game, you can't play a 1 hour epic game either. You just don't want to. Sure, the games where the other team just sits outside your base farming suck. But I would rather have a game like that every so often, than have to persuade my team to constantly keep fighting every single game, even when I'm dominating.
Not only that, but with a ff option, after a failed vote people who want to surrender will give up, making a hard to win game, unwinnable. You might require a 4/5 or a 5/5 vote, but 1 person is all it takes. If certain requirements need to be met (ie 2 rax down, X k/d ratio, etc) before they can ff, people will just not defend rax, or they won't participate in teamfights or hold back their ults or w/e until the condition is met.
Not everyone plays Dota to try and practice and become a pro. Some people truly do play for fun. But I guess since we're this "hardcore" community where everyone thinks they're gonna be a pro someday, we don't care about the people who will be turned off by the fact that they are forced to sit around and wait for the other team to decide when they want to end the game. Fuck them, right? Dota is for hardcore players only who have hours upon hours of free time.
And I edited this into my post above as you were posting this, but I'll say it again here, the concede function isn't what convinces people that they want to give up. It just gives them a way to visually express it. Players give up all the time in Dota games and either afk in the fountain or run out and "fight" the other team at raxes or whatever without really trying. A concede function isn't a cause of giving up, it's an effect of them giving up whether it's there or not. You're acting like if someone presses a concede button and the rest of his team votes it down, that's somehow going to magically change his attitude into giving up? He obviously wanted to give up with or without the concede being there, otherwise he wouldn't have voted it in the first place. If he actually stops playing the game after that, well, guess what, he probably would have done that even if the concede wasn't there. He's the player you see afk in the pool after being angry in team chat in the current Dota 2 without a concede option.
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I'm ok with concede as long as the system is reasonable, 15 min concede is not reasonable, as a veteran dota player, when I played hon I've encountered terrible noobs that had no clue about how the game works giving up way before the game was over, and that happened waaay too often.
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I really hope yes, because
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Might have been said already, but I feel dota games have at lot more chance to be won even when the other team has stomped you early on due to ability scaling or lack of.
Have definitely had some comebacks or close games from turtling and getting a tonne of gold.
I don't think a surrender option would be a bad thing so long as its all 5 players to agree, but I don't think it's needed in any case
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Is it true that if all the players on a team disconnect the team that they are on instantly loses?
If so, I think thats all the concede function we need.
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On September 20 2012 16:29 Aui_2000 wrote:
As an occurrence frequent enough to make me dislike playing inhouse leagues, players will just spam !result 1 and stop playing even if games could still be won--especially with a match making system, it is pretty fair to assume/have hope that your opponents will make mistakes on the same level of the ones that put your team behind.
This is for me the main reason not to have a concede option. I do not necessarily agree that IHL players cannot judge when the game is over, however, in my experience, if their own game goes badly and they have to play from behind, many people will rather give up and play another game instead, hoping that the early game will go better next time.
I also think there is a problem with giving players the option to never play from behind. This is incredibly hard in Dota as well as in any game, but it requires a slightly different approach which you have to practice to get good at. You can easily compare with the mindset you have to have playing SC2 from behind. Maybe you need to play really careful and defend your third, maybe you have to take huge risks with a doomdrop. Anyway, you have to practice the situation to get good at it.
This being said, I sometimes get really annoyed not being able to ff out of a 99% lost game.
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they need more punishment for people leaving the games. currently it's a joke really.
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not sure if this has ever been suggested, but what about an option to join a game where another player left?
in practice it would go like this:
"A player has permanently left the game (started a new game so you're sure he wouldn't come back)
Please wait 15 seconds for a new player to accept your game"
A player who is in queue gets a message:
Would you like to join an existing game as [hero] level xx ?
Yes/No (continue searching)
optional: if the player successfully finishes the game he gets bonus XP and extra chance for an item
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Yes, if it is subject to some useful restrictions. Otherwise no. Useful restrictions might be
-it is unavailable until a certain point of time (30 minutes or so) or dominance of a team (20++ kills or so advantage for one team) is reached.
-it can be turned on/off prior to starting a game.
-conceding games gives you a higher chance to be matched with players who also conceded games.
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Having just started Dota after years of Starcraft it feels so odd to not have the ability to concede. I guess I have been trained to feel once I am sure I have been outplayed that that reasonable thing to do is to concede gracefully. I half expect the other team to start bming and telling us to leave in such a situation.
I imagine I will come to get used to it. It is clear that with so many players there needs to be consequences for leaving haphazardly....and as a beginner its probably a good thing that I dont have the option.yet.
Out of curiousity.....there are some details about the system I don't quite understand. What exactly is the status of the game in the situations where the "it is safe to leave the game" comes up? Is there a winner? Does it not affect the internal rankings? I was also curious whether the system tracks abandons if, say, it is a 5v5 that is made through the custom lobby with teams of friends. It certainly seems like conceding should be allowed in such non-pub, and especially tournament games.
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There already is a concede function in Dota2, as mentioned before in multiple posts, if all 5 players on one side d/c (not abandon, just d/c) the game automatically ends in 30secs. Win/Loss is awarded accordingly. No one that d/c gets abandon, just a loss.
So why do we need another concede function in addition to the existing one? Because too many people come from HoN/LoL and don't recognise it for what its for? Or maybe they want the criteria for concede lowered?
Also even if a player abandons a lot its not like they can't play the game anymore, they can still find games just fine.
To those with time constraints argueing for shorter games, you will have that option once the game comes out of beta, its simply called EM (Easy Mode) game mode, I am sure anyone from Dota1 remembers, as -apem was the most common game type by far in the during map version 4.xx to 6.xx.
P.S I miss so many game modes, I can't wait to play another game of -ardm -omg, or -apomidpmscst, or apsh, ah the fun times I had.
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I think it's a good idea if the entire team votes to concede . I mean, what's the point of continuing? So someone in the other team can get his RAMPAGE or so that they get to stay at the fountain "fishing" for kills ?
Hope a concede system similar to HoN will get implemented.
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On September 20 2012 12:45 Ack1027 wrote:
Tbh to any long time dota player concede is not even about being able to forfeit to neg the game and move onto the next one. It's the mentality that comes along with it.That's one of the core differences you can spot from hon/LoL players trying out dota.
That's what you don't want in dota. Concede mentality.
Maybe in high level games the lack of concede makes the losing team gel better and actually try harder for a comeback win. But at the level I play, "concede mentality" occurs frequently even without the concede option. People will give up, constantly message the enemy team to "end it fast", sit in the fountain to expedite the loss and fight/argue with allies who don't, and start feeding/griefing. If I were playing with people who actually TRIED for a comeback, I could live without a concede option. But thats not the case. The last 10-30 minutes of many games have been ruined for me because my team has given up and thus stopped playing properly, and because the enemy team is taking their sweet time to farm up 5 diving rapiers and get an extra 50 kills.
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At the very least they should have a concede option for 5 man pre-mades. Theres zero excuse to not have a concede option for such teams.
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I'd estimate I get one one comeback win out of ~30 or so games where my team is clearly behind. Of the really one sided stomps, I have never had a comeback win (250 games total). The reverse is also true: in extremely one sided winning games, I've never had the enemy team launch a successful comeback. When my team is only a little behind, nobody wants to give up anyway, and a concede option wouldn't make them.
If I were to choose between:
1) Play 40 losing games for the benefit of getting 1 comeback win, OR
2) Be able to concede 40 games you feel are clearly lost, but miss out on that 1 comeback win
I would choose 2. Sure, getting a comeback win is a great feeling, but its not worth the agonizingly boring and prolonged endings to the 40 games I don't get comeback wins in. It just feels like an incredible waste of time. I don't have a problem playing out a losing game in an effort to turn it around, but thus far I haven't run into players who are capable of changing how they play / fixing the mistakes that put them behind in the first place, and its pretty clear theres no hope of winning.
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Show me more than 1 game that you played where one or more opponents stopped pushing to farm a rapier . I played over 400 games and it happened to me only once ( and the hero was bounty hunter so he already had a fuckton of gild to begin with ).
In dota you can always come back . The QoP that was raping you 15 mins in the game will lose her power later on , if you manage to catch that super strong AM and kill him when he has no buyback then you can still win , if you win one teamfight in the late game then you have a chance to win .
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Obviously the 5 divine rapiers was a hyperbole to stress the fact that the end gets prolonged, I'm not sure how you didn't realize that? But comebacks are extremely rare at my level of play (I'm not pro). If we're down 10-30, we're down because we're making mistakes. At my level of play, people can't fix these mistakes within the span of a single game, and continue to make them.
And the "win one fight and you can win" can happen only in some losing games. When its possible, people don't want to give up. But you reach a point where a farmed out AM can basically 1v4 you. Nobody got hex, and you dont have a blinking initiator cuz its a low level game. You're not going to win a team fight in this case.
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Well then , show us the games that got "prolonged" and let us decide if they were really over.
As you said , you don't play at a pro level and guess what, your opponents aren't pro either and they make mistakes too.
I would also really like to see those replays were a farmed AM killed 4 heroes all by himself . I'm really curious.
Edit:
Ps. Why don't you get a blinl initiator and a hex instead of whining about your teammates ?
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On September 20 2012 20:45 BlitzerSC wrote:
Well then , show us the games that got "prolonged" and let us decide if they were really over.
As you said , you don't play at a pro level and guess what, your opponents aren't pro either and they make mistakes too.
I would also really like to see those replays were a farmed AM killed 4 heroes all by himself . I'm really curious.
Edit:
Ps. Why don't you get a blinl initiator and a hex instead of whining about your teammates ?
probably because its a pub game and the objective isnt to win but to have fun playing
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I'm really surprised at all the anti-concedes here. There isn't a dota session I have where someone doesn't remark how dumb it is that there isn't a concede and you're forced to waste a lot of time pointlessly. I agree with a lot of what Angra says, so to not repeat his arguments I'll just mention my own.
The biggest problem with no concede is that even if everyone agrees they want to concede, you can't unless everyone agrees and leaves at roughly the same time. The system is not clear and forces you into a Hobbesian trap where everyone is afraid that someone on the team is going to screw it up and give you an abandon so nobody wants to leave. It's even worse when someone on the other team has dc'ed and doesn't know the rules (or is scared like I said) so you get a meaningless win. A concede option would make it completely clear.
Some argue that that it would 'stunt learning', and while I can see how that might be true of more advanced players it makes less sense for beginning players. If you're getting stomped at the begging of the game, you need to start a new game until you get the early stage of the game down. Learning everything from the perspective of being really behind is the wrong way to learn. Besides, if the story of the game is "first we played awful then they played awful" I doubt much real learning is occurring.
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Because I don't like playing initiators and hexers every game? Because I want to play with every hero??? How am I "whining" if I'm not an initiator every game???? Why are you taking the argument in this direction? Are we here to discuss the merits of a concede option, or insult each other for being whiners?
What level do you play at? high? very high? Just as you're suggesting I don't know what happens or can happen at those level of games, simply because I don't play there, means that you don't know what happens in Normal level games, where I play.
I've had games where 2-3 start afking in the fountain and threatening me and the other guy with reports unless we do the same to expedite the loss.
Furthremore, and try to understand this, people at my level of play aren't some super gosus. I fully admit at this level of play, there are several POSSIBLE comeback wins that aren't realized. Obviously if Dendi watched such a game, he could point out what we needed to do in order to win. What you don't realize is that the team is behind because they've played badly (or have terrible picks), and they're not going to suddenly transform within the span of a single game and develop high level game sense. If they've been feeding ursa by getting into 1on1 fights with him, they will generally continue to do this. I can understand 5 man premades or high level players having enough game sense to be malleable enough to switch gears and direction to possibly get a win. But at my level of play, its extremely rare.
And no, I'm not going to go through my match history to pull out examples. The suggestion that I'm inventing these examples is insulting and not worth the effort of going through my games to disprove.
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I don't know why people would be against a surrender vote option, which would require the 5 players of your team to vote for surrender to end the game.
Sometimes you get totally stomped, and when people roll your team with full items and 5 more levels, they will make the game last ages in purpose to feel good about farming you, instead of finishing relatively fast (in my experience at low level).
It's not fun, and worst of all it's waste of time, playing a 50 minute games that was lost at the 30mn mark is like half a game less you can play in your given time.
I don't think anyone should be allowed to waste people's time in a game where games last that long, and therefore a surrender option should be implemented in my opinion. When playing with friends that can't play more than 2hours, jerks like that only let you play 2 games instead of 3 I.E.
Of course when one guy wishes to continue, you shouldn't be able to leave, but if the vote requires the 5 players to agree, it's fine for everyone.
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I wish people [read pub moba players] would be able to handle a concede option but I'm starting to think no concede is the lesser of two evils. There are so many players sporting a ridiculous defeatist attitude who are so angering to play with especially since they don't have a clue about the game. I feel like the cc option just provides them with further incentive to bitch and destroy the game (based on playing HoN).
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I used to be all for having a concede option, coming from an exlusively HoN background it made a lot of sense. After over 600 games of Dota 2, I have changed my mind. Yes, it sucks to be in a losing game, but adding a concede option would make pub experiences SO MUCH WORSE overall, it blows my mind. People always, always, always concede too early. At least one person every game that's not a complete stompfest would quit early. At this point, I'd rather have that crybaby rage and leave than have to try to reason with him that the game's not over just because his personal farm isn't where he wants, or his particular lane lost in the laning phase. People who play this game tend to forget it's a team game and have no idea what their teammates farm looks like.
I am absolutely opposed to a concede option, UNLESS they implement it under the conditions that there has to be an astronomical gold/exp advantage (like 15-20k), AND at least one rax has been taken.
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They could implement those conditions, plus the requirement that all 5 players must choose to concede. I'd be fine with that. Its the really one sided stomps that get dragged out because the enemy team wants to farm you that most people have issue with.
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Alrigth the thread was pretty good but most things that can be said has been said so I'm switching it up a bit.
It seems like many people agree on that there are a lot of games that drag on but at the same time a concede option would impact Dota in a bad way.
But what if there is a third option?
In martial arts (at least kickboxing) most people think there are two ways to win. You either knock your opponent out, or you win on points. But there is a third variety that is much rarer. In sweden it's called "utklassning", "getting outclassed".
It's basically the ref calling the game because you clearly can't defend yourself. It basically only happens in two situations
a) it's a low level match and while both figthers are beginners they are in no way equal and one simply outclasses the other so much it's not even funny
b) one figther gets so tired that he can't even keep his guard up but refuses to give up (and his corner doesn't throw in the towel).
How about something similar in Dota? What if there was a win condition that was just based on your team getting out classed so bad that you can't possibly win. You won't be able to see how close you are to winning but if all conditions are meet the game would end early in your favour.
For win conditions, it could look something like this.
To win early you would need to:
Buildings:
Have destroyed at least 5 enemy structures.
Not have lost more than 5 structures.
Not lost a structure the last 10 minutes.
Levels
Total team level is at least 10 levels above opposing team (on average 2 levels higher).
Highest level hero is at least 3 levels higher than highest level enemy hero.
The opposing team has not earned more experience then you in the last three minutes.
Gold
Total team networth (gold and current items) are worth at least 25000 gold.
Total team networth is at least triple that of opposing team.
The opposing team has not earned more gold than you for at least three minutes.
Creeps
The enemy team has not killed Roshan in the last 10 minutes.
These are just examples but the conditions would have to be so hard to get that a pro level game would NEVER be easier to end by meeting them instead of just killing the ancient.
Poll: Would you like an additional victory condition?No (24) 51% I'd rather be able to surrender instead. (19) 40% Yes (4) 9% 47 total votes Your vote: Would you like an additional victory condition? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): I'd rather be able to surrender instead.
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Some sort of requirements that need to be met along with 4 or 5 people agreeing that the game is lost could form a reasonably accurate method of conceding.
Or they could just make the spawn location invulnerable. If you're in it, there should be no way for you to get ganked. Pretty sure this would help at least a fair bit. People worry about their KDR too much.
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i am for a surrender option after having played every mainstream moba. you don't have to surrender with a majority vote, and the people that would surrender early are the people who are going to rage and grief and afk anyway. i am actually against a conditional on when you can surrender (20 min in lol) - lol needs one b/c of its microtransaction grind system. im for being able to surrender with a majority vote at any time in a game with a cooldown on the surrender call to prevent spam/griefing.
if you are the 1 out of 5 ppl who never wants to surrender in a lol game, then maybe the problem isn't with the rest of the pubs but with you. also, right now i can rly only remember being annoyed with the surrender function when i was playing with friends who gave up too soon, not with pubs.
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You only get shitloads of leavers if you play in the lower brackets. So yeah all you have to do is get good
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On September 21 2012 01:34 bakarin wrote:
You only get shitloads of leavers if you play in the lower brackets. So yeah all you have to do is get good
? There are dicks in every brackets.
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Yup. I've simply stopped playing the game because each game drags so much, it's a complete waste of time.
A lot of anti-surrender mentality comes from the fact that people think the other 4 "noobs" on their team will want to surrender. They don't realise that in a modern matchmaking system, all five people are equally skilled, and if 5 similarly skilled people decide the game is lost, it is 99% lost. The LoL system is perfect, but most of the Dota players are simply stuck in the past.
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It is funny too say that dota players live in the past, considering how every major dota1 platform had a concede option.
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what's the punishment for leavers? I didn't even know people had problems with that in dota2, in the 500 games or so I've played, I've only encountered at most 5-10 leavers that were actually raging/giving up, the rest of the disconnects were most likely connection or pc problems, like all of mine were.
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You get put into the low priority queue if you have a certain amount of leaves within a certain number of games. This means no battle points or items and generally longer queue times.
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I think if all 5 players agree to concede and it was past 20 minutes in game then you should be able to call it quits.
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On September 21 2012 01:30 Gandalf wrote:
Some sort of requirements that need to be met along with 4 or 5 people agreeing that the game is lost could form a reasonably accurate method of conceding.
Or they could just make the spawn location invulnerable. If you're in it, there should be no way for you to get ganked. Pretty sure this would help at least a fair bit. People worry about their KDR too much.
Whatever those requirements would be people would find ways to grief their way to meeting them. It is better to make a system which can not be affected by the players then.
If they make you invulnerable in the fountain there are many skills which are nerfed.
How can people care about KDR when it is not displayed? One thought though. I have limited experience with HoN(~100 games), but I found there to be an unhealthy fixation with stats, because you have every single stat available about every player in the game through a mouseover. Couldn't this have an effect on the will to concede since if you're playing from behind, you're more likely to get further negative stats. You get into a mindset of mitigating the loss rather than trying to gain a win. Since almost all stats are hidden in Dota 2, is it not possible there might be a more sound attitude towards conceding?
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On September 21 2012 02:00 Yoshi- wrote:
It is funny too say that dota players live in the past, considering how every major dota1 platform had a concede option.
So dota 1 did have a concede system in place? Then its surprising that a lot of dota 1 players seem so staunchly against it in dota 2.
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I think the poll needs to read "I´d rather shoot myself in the foot" instead of "I´d rather have a surrender option"
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On September 21 2012 02:11 Gandalf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 02:00 Yoshi- wrote:
It is funny too say that dota players live in the past, considering how every major dota1 platform had a concede option. So dota 1 did have a concede system in place? Then its surprising that a lot of dota 1 players seem so staunchly against it in dota 2.
Or people saw that concede is crap and so they think that it shouldn't be added?
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On September 21 2012 02:00 Yoshi- wrote:
It is funny too say that dota players live in the past, considering how every major dota1 platform had a concede option.
Well I've only played the Dota 1 map a few times. But how do you explain such baseless arguments that are seen in most threads.
1. You get reported for not surrendering by others. (It is in fact the fake reporters that get banned, for ex. in LoL)
2. The other players who are so noob dont realise the game can still be won. (If you are getting matched with them, you are just as noob as them, and those others are exactly the same skill as yours )
These indicate to me they've never experienced a modern working system.
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How should it be possible to ban fake reporters, when reports will never be checked by real human beings? Most report system ban you when you get too many reports, nobody is actually double checking it.
And your second point is not even remotely true, there will always be people of different skill levels in a game.
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The second point is also wrong by the fact that probally everyone that has played enough games had games where they believed they had no way to win but kept playing and got back from a disadvantage they believed impossible to overcome. It's after stuff like that that you "train" yourself to not listen to your brain and keep playing, because if that game was winnable, perhaps this one is as well. It's more a question of experience, not skill. I doubt anyone could point the exact limits of when a game is unwinnable from the limited information inside the game, you just learn not to trust your instincts that say it is over and don't give up.
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Then come up with a better concede system? Like a set of conditions that need to be met, plus all 5 players agreeing to concede, to ensure at least to a reasonable degree that the game is actually over.
And why don't 5 man premades in high or very high have the concede option?
Furthermore, you can't expect every player to be as goal driven as you. Its fine that some players take the game seriously and want to push themselves to be as good as possible, but there are many who play it casually and with limited time, and would rather concede and start a new game than get that 1 comeback in 30 stomps. What do you do when 4 casuals end up in a game with 1 hardcore guy? You won't be able to satisfy every player in every game.
But if there were a strict concede method, conditions + 4-5 players needed, maybe more people would find satisfying conclusions to their games.
And some sort of fix to the pool farming. I sure hope there isn't anyone here who supports that.
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theres already a concede system if 5players agree. It's called 'everyone leaves the game'. Not sure why you would add conditions ;p
And pool farming is a part of dota, you have way more chance to kill the guy that farm you near your pool than everywhere else.
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On September 21 2012 02:47 Erasme wrote:
theres already a concede system if 5players agree. It's called 'everyone leaves the game'. Not sure why you would add conditions ;p
Uh, because if you're in a pub game it's very easy for one of your teammates to troll and stick around so that you get abandonment...
A mutual agreement protects each player.
And pool farming is a part of dota, you have way more chance to kill the guy that farm you near your pool than everywhere else.
How is 'pool farming is part of dota' ever an argument for this new game? A shitty store was a part of dota and they managed to change that. Pool farming is a valueless part of the game. For some reason people feel the need to defend it's existance as if it does play a role in the grand scheme of the game.
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Well you could always leave the game, wait a minute and then see if the game is still going, if it is still going you got fooled and can rejoin
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Netherlands6142 Posts
This is the worst pile of either non-constructive or uninformed posts I've witnessed in a long while. Closing.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/803/safetoleavedota2.png/)
