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On May 23 2012 03:38 Tyree wrote:
Nobody is talking about the C's but if KG was at his 2004 level they would sweep all the way to a Ship'. Granted that is a what "if"
I still think they have a very realistic shot at beating Miami, but neither team will beat Spurs or OKC i feel.
Unless LeBron reaches some sort of superman level of play, he literally cannot play better than he already is
That is a big if. The Lakers with 2004 Kobe might be a little better and the Spurs with 2004 Duncan would murder them.
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I've been hearing a lot of 'the Spurs are boring' crap lately and I'm not buying it. Even if you come up to me and say "I think they're boring" I don't believe you; there's something more. A huge part of it obviously is just the sports media bias towards big and traditional markets. Look at the way the media descended on the Knicks when they got halfway good. Not even good, just not horrible. And when they can't ignore the fact that the Spurs are doing well they have to justify the fact that they were too busy spending all their time watching clips of Blake Griffin pushing off and dunking.
The other part is more personal but related. In political science, you talk about the 'solidary' or social aspect of political participation and it's certainly present in sports. People from some places, like Boston, talk about their teams as if they are personified demigods and they have a sense of... the word entitlement comes to mind It's not just we respect teams because they win.You deserve to win because you're a Laker. And when a, I hate to say upstart but let's say not purebred, team comes along that has a as good if not better organization, then you have to find a way to discredit them. I'm not saying they don't respect their success, but they'll always be second tier. You can just hear the smugness dripping off of their Red Sox cap and pullover wearing northeast accent.
As far as the Lakers go, it's interesting to note, and it's not mine nor an original thought, that the Lakers have not really built their teams from the ground up lately. I wouldn't say they bought their titles, but they got star players from pretty lopsided trades and certainly benefited from their cache being the Lakers. As DP said, who can they fleece now? It will be interesting going forward now that there is more of a real cap.
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On May 23 2012 04:01 ecstatica wrote:
No one is a Laker fan when they lose. I dont know why anyone cares who they root for, its always another bandwagon.
Kind of sad LA curled up and died. Was hoping for more action out of that set. W/e I guess they cant be coached atm.
Cant wait for Spurs epic meltdown and dismantling of their 'fanbase'. It was fun while it lasted.
Heat needs to beat scrubs from Indiana, otherwise East finals will be lacking.
Lol I am a Lakers fan when they lose, what do you want me to do? Cry about it? Losing happens in sports... saying who you think deserves to win the championship has nothing to do with that lol. I am a BASKETBALL fan above any team.
Lol about the Spurs 'fanbase' meltdown. Oh noes, people who said they think they should win will be wrong...it is not a fanbase, it is just people who like basketball saying their opinions. Real fans are the ones who have been with the Spurs for years. People like to think opinions mean you are fans now I guess.
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On May 23 2012 03:07 MassHysteria wrote:Like Andrewlt said, the Spurs are a team who most people respect for doing things the right way. If you are looking at them as an organization that is. Even so I want to answer the original post because it was just so off-base and actually ignited me to respond :p.. I could try to answer in a general sense, but I am mostly answering from a basketball-fan point of view. Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:17 igotmyown wrote:On May 22 2012 15:03 vasculaR wrote:
is it just me but whenever I see westbrook's face.. i keep thinking of ninja turtles.. zzz You mean it has nothing to do with the highly visible westbrook pictures, which were probably derived from some recently hugely popular internet meme? --- People switching from Lakers to Spurs: you're not real fans. Spurs have been battling the Lakers for western conference supremacy for a decade. The Lakers have been the modern day Heat, everyone used to say Kobe and Shaq could win with 3 players off the street. The Spurs are a team of Malik Roses and Bruce Bowens just as much as it has been Duncan and Parker. I don't know what you mean by "switching", but just wanting a team you feel that exemplifies championship basketball, the Spurs, doesn't mean you are "switching" the Lakers for the Spurs. One is out, one is still in the run, simple as that. If I didn't think the Spurs were playing great basketball or didn't deserve to win, then I would probably not care who won. I don't get "The Spurs are a team of Malik Roses and Bruce Bowens just as much as it has been Duncan and Parker." So the Lakers role players haven't mattered? Glen Rice, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Harper, Fisher, etc. If you look at the 2000-2004 rosters, the Lakers had stacked teams, with some great role players. If you are saying one is big-market and one is small-market, well duh. But the only way the Lakers are the modern-day Heat is b/c Shaq chose to sign with LA (massive contract back then) and Kobe said he only wanted to play as a Laker before the draft. Their two stars chose where to go, just like the Heat. Getting Shaq was a major haul but trading for Kobe's draft rights wasn't at all like the modern-day Heat. Three established stars, with arguably the two best players at the time joined forces in Miami. Shaq was a beast, but Kobe was not an established star at all. They still had to build the team and it was a few years before you could say Shaq and kobe could win it with nobodies (which we all know is not true, ever). Which is more work than Spurs had to do when they got Duncan btw. Robinson got injured so Spurs lucked out by getting Duncan, then won the championship his rookie year.. Show nested quote +
The Lakers are about Shaq overpowering people in the paint or Kobe calling for an isolation and trying to score with a heroic display of footwork and skill. The Spurs are about Tim Duncan working hard to get position in the paint without the ball, switching on the pick and roll, and (the team) making all the little plays that nobody cares about.
Lol, this made me laugh. So the triangle offense had nothing to do with anything? Shaq wasn't a beast at positioning? Shaq was a smart player, don't let his personality, power and size fool you. "Making all the little plays that nobody cares about" is just a dumb statement. No teams win it without hustling for "all the little plays that nobody cares about". Show nested quote +Fanwise they are philosophically incompatible. You can't say you love the Spurs teamwork and unselfishness while blaming Kobe's teammates. The Heat are a more effective version of the Lakers dynamic, so Lakers fans should switch to them ... or OKC. I don't see how Lakers fans could resent Oklahoma, since they swept them from the playoffs two years ago. It's not a rivalry, so there's no betrayal. This paragraph is so wrong in my case. "philosophically incompatible"? C'mon you said it yourself that they have been battling for western supremacy for the past decade. When I think of the old-school teams still remaining, it really is only the Spurs & Lakers now. Both Lakers and Spurs are great teams because they have great front-office management, and that is the truth. They might have different philosophies and market sizes, but they are both at the top when it comes to NBA organizations. As for "You can't say you love the Spurs teamwork and unselfishness while blaming Kobe's teammates" is just dumb. The Lakers loss can be blamed on everyone. If people are blaming Kobe's teammates then they are dumb. If they are blaming Kobe, then they are still dumb. Their offense broke down many times in that series, specially when OKC fronted Bynum on the entry pass to the post. They looked terrible at stretches. I have never really been a Kobe fan (I have said it many times here) but I have came to respect him for his night-in, night-out effort over the last two years specifically, which is something that carries over with me when I say I want SAS to win. I don' think anyone resents OKC, at least I don't. They are a great young team. If I don't want them to win it is because they are so young and just feel that they don't deserve to win it yet out of respect for past NBA champions. Young teams don't really ever win, and with a lot of the NBA changing lately, I hope that isn't something that also changes with it. As for the Heat, the Lakers fans relate to them just because they have so many haters everywhere lol. Fans and teams acting like they won the championship when they simply beat these teams is just plain out satisfying to their real fans though.
Everything I said is true. The Lakers have won as a top heavy organization, and a lot of people thought the Kobe and Shaq were the two best players in the game. Don't forget Dwayne Wade started on the Heat, saying you can't compare them is being in denial.
I'm not saying that Lakers fans don't care at all about their role players, but they worshiped Shaq and Kobe so much more. One fan not doing so does not discount how the vast majority of the fanbase act.
Shaq was Superman, Duncan was more like Batman. It's a very important point which goes back to the fundamental reasons we love athletes, but I'll have to flesh it out when I have more time.
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On May 23 2012 05:38 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 03:07 MassHysteria wrote:Like Andrewlt said, the Spurs are a team who most people respect for doing things the right way. If you are looking at them as an organization that is. Even so I want to answer the original post because it was just so off-base and actually ignited me to respond :p.. I could try to answer in a general sense, but I am mostly answering from a basketball-fan point of view. On May 22 2012 16:17 igotmyown wrote:On May 22 2012 15:03 vasculaR wrote:
is it just me but whenever I see westbrook's face.. i keep thinking of ninja turtles.. zzz You mean it has nothing to do with the highly visible westbrook pictures, which were probably derived from some recently hugely popular internet meme? --- People switching from Lakers to Spurs: you're not real fans. Spurs have been battling the Lakers for western conference supremacy for a decade. The Lakers have been the modern day Heat, everyone used to say Kobe and Shaq could win with 3 players off the street. The Spurs are a team of Malik Roses and Bruce Bowens just as much as it has been Duncan and Parker. I don't know what you mean by "switching", but just wanting a team you feel that exemplifies championship basketball, the Spurs, doesn't mean you are "switching" the Lakers for the Spurs. One is out, one is still in the run, simple as that. If I didn't think the Spurs were playing great basketball or didn't deserve to win, then I would probably not care who won. I don't get "The Spurs are a team of Malik Roses and Bruce Bowens just as much as it has been Duncan and Parker." So the Lakers role players haven't mattered? Glen Rice, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Harper, Fisher, etc. If you look at the 2000-2004 rosters, the Lakers had stacked teams, with some great role players. If you are saying one is big-market and one is small-market, well duh. But the only way the Lakers are the modern-day Heat is b/c Shaq chose to sign with LA (massive contract back then) and Kobe said he only wanted to play as a Laker before the draft. Their two stars chose where to go, just like the Heat. Getting Shaq was a major haul but trading for Kobe's draft rights wasn't at all like the modern-day Heat. Three established stars, with arguably the two best players at the time joined forces in Miami. Shaq was a beast, but Kobe was not an established star at all. They still had to build the team and it was a few years before you could say Shaq and kobe could win it with nobodies (which we all know is not true, ever). Which is more work than Spurs had to do when they got Duncan btw. Robinson got injured so Spurs lucked out by getting Duncan, then won the championship his rookie year..
The Lakers are about Shaq overpowering people in the paint or Kobe calling for an isolation and trying to score with a heroic display of footwork and skill. The Spurs are about Tim Duncan working hard to get position in the paint without the ball, switching on the pick and roll, and (the team) making all the little plays that nobody cares about.
Lol, this made me laugh. So the triangle offense had nothing to do with anything? Shaq wasn't a beast at positioning? Shaq was a smart player, don't let his personality, power and size fool you. "Making all the little plays that nobody cares about" is just a dumb statement. No teams win it without hustling for "all the little plays that nobody cares about". Fanwise they are philosophically incompatible. You can't say you love the Spurs teamwork and unselfishness while blaming Kobe's teammates. The Heat are a more effective version of the Lakers dynamic, so Lakers fans should switch to them ... or OKC. I don't see how Lakers fans could resent Oklahoma, since they swept them from the playoffs two years ago. It's not a rivalry, so there's no betrayal. This paragraph is so wrong in my case. "philosophically incompatible"? C'mon you said it yourself that they have been battling for western supremacy for the past decade. When I think of the old-school teams still remaining, it really is only the Spurs & Lakers now. Both Lakers and Spurs are great teams because they have great front-office management, and that is the truth. They might have different philosophies and market sizes, but they are both at the top when it comes to NBA organizations. As for "You can't say you love the Spurs teamwork and unselfishness while blaming Kobe's teammates" is just dumb. The Lakers loss can be blamed on everyone. If people are blaming Kobe's teammates then they are dumb. If they are blaming Kobe, then they are still dumb. Their offense broke down many times in that series, specially when OKC fronted Bynum on the entry pass to the post. They looked terrible at stretches. I have never really been a Kobe fan (I have said it many times here) but I have came to respect him for his night-in, night-out effort over the last two years specifically, which is something that carries over with me when I say I want SAS to win. I don' think anyone resents OKC, at least I don't. They are a great young team. If I don't want them to win it is because they are so young and just feel that they don't deserve to win it yet out of respect for past NBA champions. Young teams don't really ever win, and with a lot of the NBA changing lately, I hope that isn't something that also changes with it. As for the Heat, the Lakers fans relate to them just because they have so many haters everywhere lol. Fans and teams acting like they won the championship when they simply beat these teams is just plain out satisfying to their real fans though. Everything I said is true. The Lakers have won as a top heavy organization, and a lot of people thought the Kobe and Shaq were the two best players in the game. Don't forget Dwayne Wade started on the Heat, saying you can't compare them is being in denial. I'm not saying that Lakers fans don't care at all about their role players, but they worshiped Shaq and Kobe so much more. One fan not doing so does not discount how the vast majority of the fanbase act. Shaq was Superman, Duncan was more like Batman. It's a very important point which goes back to the fundamental reasons we love athletes, but I'll have to flesh it out when I have more time.
Ok, and if it is true, then I responded to it, but you didn't even do the same in your response to me. Wade started with the Heat so they are the same now? They have some of the best players and are in a large market that is why you are saying they are the same, which I agreed to. You probably dislike both teams right? That is probably why you see them as the same more than I do.
The Heat are everything new-school basketball is, don't even get me started. I already said why Lakers getting Kobe at the time is different, do I need to say it again? They had the two best players at one point after making the right moves as an organization, not because the players decided it that way like it was in MIA.
People worshiped Kobe and Shaq so much more? Of course, do you understand how many bandwagon fans there are that jump in when playoffs come around in LA? People that you have no idea would even watch basketball...
But even still, that is actually wrong. So many people loved Fox, Horry, and Fisher (not even getting into Mark Madsen or Tyronne Lue who hardly did a thing) when they were here -my fav players was Glen Rice at one point- but you wouldn't see that unless you actually lived in LA. In the media, maybe it was different...Where those two the most popular players? Sure. Was Duncan in his prime the most popular player for SA fans? Of course, he is an all-time great like Shaq and Kobe.
"Shaq was Superman, Duncan was more like Batman. It's a very important point which goes back to the fundamental reasons we love athletes, but I'll have to flesh it out when I have more time." I agree with your analogy, but I don't see what it has to do with what we are discussing.
I don't wanna assume but I sense a little Laker-hate in your responses, to which I have to say that you have to think outside of that. I don't respond to you with a everyone-is-a-laker-hater attitude.
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congratulations to the oklahoma supersonics
jerks
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There is no such thing as doing things "the right way". I wish you people would stop parroting that nonsense.
On May 23 2012 04:03 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 03:38 Tyree wrote:
Nobody is talking about the C's but if KG was at his 2004 level they would sweep all the way to a Ship'. Granted that is a what "if"
I still think they have a very realistic shot at beating Miami, but neither team will beat Spurs or OKC i feel.
Unless LeBron reaches some sort of superman level of play, he literally cannot play better than he already is That is a big if. The Lakers with 2004 Kobe might be a little better and the Spurs with 2004 Duncan would murder them.
Spurs with 2004 Duncan vs Celtics with 2003/2004 KG is not a good matchup for SA. KG is probably the best passing big man of all time - Boston's offense would be off the charts good with him and Rondo.
@MH: How are the Miami Heat a new school organization? Another point - they resemble a small market team (because they are) more so than a large market team.
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United States4471 Posts
I am a Lakers fan and have been my whole life, and the reason is simply because I have lived in LA all of my life and I grew up watching them with my family. It started with my grandfather being a Lakers fan, which is quite amazing thinking back on it since he was from Taiwan and didn't move to the US until he had grandchildren, didn't speak or understand English, and never played basketball himself. His love for the Lakers got my mom into it, my dad is more of a bandwagon fan who got swept up in the greatness of the Showtime Lakers, and I went right along with it. It has nothing to do with the "philosophy" of the team or how their teams were typically constructed. I became a Clippers fan (gasp... fan of both teams??) because I grew to love basketball, they were an LA team, and I always had a soft spot for underdogs.
This whole rant by igotmyown is nothing more than a rant with a few decent points of truth. It totally ignores the fact that many Lakers fans started off being fans of the Showtime Lakers, who were very different from the Kobe/Shaq or Kobe/Gasol Lakers. It ignores the fact that many Lakers fans are just basketball fans who live in LA and cheer for their hometeam, which is no different than almost every sports fan in the US (love the sport and their city). It ignores the fact that many people are Lakers fans because they've been the most successful NBA franchise in league history, let alone over the past few decades, and that they tend to be on TV more because of their success (good teams are on national TV more often, and they usually play deep into the postseason when all games are on national TV). It ignores the fact that the NBA, and basketball in general, is just a star-driven game, and the Lakers are an attractive team since they have had more stars than any franchise in the league.
Most of all, it assumes and largely fabricates this theory that Lakers fans actually consider the way the teams were constructed, how their rosters shaped out, and the style of play/philosophies they adopted, analyzed all of that, and then made a conscious decision based off of some preference for the Lakers' particular brand of basketball or organizational philosophy to cheer for the team. What evidence or support is there for that? Most Lakers fans only care about the end product that is put on the floor, how entertaining it is to watch, and how successful the team is. They don't know, or care, howm or why everything happened. The Lakers have a lot of fans simply because they are consistently able to field a competitive team (no one enjoys cheering for a losing team over and over), usually a championship contender (easier to cheer for one of the best), and are consistently able to obtain the biggest stars (more interesting and entertaining).
As for the why the Spurs were never as popular as the Lakers despite their great success, I believe it has more to do with the history the franchise (not very notable prior to Duncan), the marketability of its stars (Duncan is the very definition of the anti-star who prefers his privacy over the spotlight, Parker and Ginobili are foreigners who were always in Duncan's shadow), and the very non-flashy/fundamentals-based way they play basketball. The Spurs organization also contributes to this as they have created an unassuming, humble, non-flashy and quiet identity for the franchise which was largely shaped by Duncan and Popovic. Neither of them want the spotlight, and Popovic is often unfriendly or even hostile to the media. The pre-Duncan Spurs were never that good, and the Duncan Spurs are not a team that wants to be popular or appeal to the casual NBA fans. It's as much their fault as it is anyone's.
Lastly, there is nothing wrong with Lakers fans choosing to cheer for the Spurs now that the Lakers have been eliminated. Many people like the Lakers because they're the best, so it makes sense that they would like the Spurs since they seem to be the best right now. Many people like the Lakers because they like basketball, and the Spurs are playing great basketball. Many Lakers fans are annoyed or pissed off by the way the Lakers/Kobe has played over the past few years, and can't help but admire how the Spurs play. Being a Lakers fans doesn't assume you approve of everything about the organization. Often the harshest critics of a team are its most ardent fans. I know for a fact that many Lakers fans wish that the Lakers played more like the Spurs do (which fans don't right now really?), so there's nothing contradictory or wrong about them cheering for a team that they wish their team could be more like. Many Lakers fans respect Duncan and the Spurs as rivals, even if they may hate Bowen and Ginobili (at times). Basically, there's nothing wrong with Lakers fans cheering for the Spurs, and there are a good number of reasons why it makes sense.
I could get into the arguments about how the Lakers are actually different from the Heat, similar to the Spurs, etc., but it doesn't really matter in the context of this discussion.
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Also it amazes me how many people hate Miami for building their team the way they did without understanding exactly what happened with that organization the past few years. Miami and San Antonio the year Robinson got hurt have almost the same path of team building. Literally, we are talking about 1 ping pong ball of difference between the franchises considering the magnitude of the players they were getting.
But meh, ignorance and media driven hatred of players is what sells.
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On May 23 2012 07:24 Ace wrote:
Also it amazes me how many people hate Miami for building their team the way they did without understanding exactly what happened with that organization the past few years. Miami and San Antonio the year Robinson got hurt have almost the same path of team building. Literally, we are talking about 1 ping pong ball of difference between the franchises considering the magnitude of the players they were getting.
But meh, ignorance and media driven hatred of players is what sells.
In my experience (granted it's rather limited and the basketball environment I'm in is quite bad/ignorant), most people just hate the Heat because they're LeBron antifans. And I mean really antifans...think of the most stereotypically bad and/or overused criticisms of LeBron, wrap it into a single package, and throw in a buy-one-get-one free deal and that's how much they loathe LBJ  hehe
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On May 23 2012 07:10 Ace wrote:
There is no such thing as doing things "the right way". I wish you people would stop parroting that nonsense.
great input lol...but you are right. What people mean "by the right way", to those who can't understand for themselves, is that they are relatively a small-market team with great success, which have been successful for the most part because of their owners and management. The owners haven't had a ton of money to throw around, and management hasn't overreacted with decisions that they might regret. They have adapted their organizational philosophy to their market (example being how they have had great draft picks without having high picks, or spending resources in order to attain some pretty good international stars at a time it wasn't all that popular) and have done it better than any of the other teams they can be compared to. So the "right way" just refers to them as an organization and business, but I can kind of get what you are saying.
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I like the Spurs because of the culture Pops and Duncan have been able to cultivate. I actually worry for how that team might end up once they're both gone (because let's face it, they're both getting on in years...) :/
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On May 23 2012 04:11 Jerubaal wrote:
I've been hearing a lot of 'the Spurs are boring' crap lately and I'm not buying it. Even if you come up to me and say "I think they're boring" I don't believe you; there's something more. A huge part of it obviously is just the sports media bias towards big and traditional markets. Look at the way the media descended on the Knicks when they got halfway good. Not even good, just not horrible. And when they can't ignore the fact that the Spurs are doing well they have to justify the fact that they were too busy spending all their time watching clips of Blake Griffin pushing off and dunking.
The other part is more personal but related. In political science, you talk about the 'solidary' or social aspect of political participation and it's certainly present in sports. People from some places, like Boston, talk about their teams as if they are personified demigods and they have a sense of... the word entitlement comes to mind It's not just we respect teams because they win.You deserve to win because you're a Laker. And when a, I hate to say upstart but let's say not purebred, team comes along that has a as good if not better organization, then you have to find a way to discredit them. I'm not saying they don't respect their success, but they'll always be second tier. You can just hear the smugness dripping off of their Red Sox cap and pullover wearing northeast accent.
As far as the Lakers go, it's interesting to note, and it's not mine nor an original thought, that the Lakers have not really built their teams from the ground up lately. I wouldn't say they bought their titles, but they got star players from pretty lopsided trades and certainly benefited from their cache being the Lakers. As DP said, who can they fleece now? It will be interesting going forward now that there is more of a real cap.
Personally, I think people believe the Spurs are "boring" because there is 1 thing that keeps them in the playoffs year after year: Their big 3-Parker, Ginoboli, and Duncan.
As much as I dislike them, I can't help but admit that they are a really solid team with ridiculous chemistry. Its no coincidence they haven't lost a basketball game since April 18th, they are just that good at working with each other.
I'm curious to see how they will take care of the Thunder though. I think Westbrook will prove more of a challenge for Tony Parker than Paul did against LA. Plus Durant is playing like the real MVP of the 2012 season, so that will also be interesting to see how they approach that problem.
In terms of the Finals, it doesn't matter who comes out of the east at the moment, none of them are strong enough to match up with OKC/SA. Whoever wins the west, wins the Finals, simple as that imo.
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i wouldn´t underestimate Boston.
San Antonio vs Boston would be a Finals for the Ages.
That beeing said,the Thunder have a good chance vs the Spurs.
And tbh Heat vs Pacers is far from over!
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
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On May 23 2012 07:10 Ace wrote:
Spurs with 2004 Duncan vs Celtics with 2003/2004 KG is not a good matchup for SA. KG is probably the best passing big man of all time - Boston's offense would be off the charts good with him and Rondo.
@MH: How are the Miami Heat a new school organization? Another point - they resemble a small market team (because they are) more so than a large market team.
You are right, I shouldn't say large market. I could argue that there are hardly any small-market teams in the NBA though(including SA, which I used as the term myself) but that is just straying too far... I would say mid-to-large market though, and probably right around mid-market for the NBA (specially compared to like NY, LA, etc.)
And I guess I just meant new school simply as to how the players got to choose what teams to go to, while being relatively young, and that they play an upbeat, exciting type of basketball with perimeter players as their main stars. But I would listen to a different argument, I definitely don't think I am 100% right in what I said so I appreciate disagreements ^^
edit:clarity
PS good rational post by Cyric. He put a lot in there of which I wasn't able to put in words myself.
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I apploud you all of quality reading and posting. I love it! Makes me want to do my piece of 17 years of Heat love! Maybe soon. It's trully a great story. Anyway LETS GO HEAT! Hoping for 3-2 today!
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And so, it begins, the crucial game 5 to break the 2-2 tie. Let's go Miami!!
lol at the TNT overtime cameraman who kept dramatically zooming into Wade's face/eyes
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Keep it up Shane! 
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ROFL RIO! You ain't Skip man come on
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EPT
