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On April 10 2012 14:47 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:46 red4ce wrote:On April 10 2012 14:37 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:28 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature. Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples. Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership? My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did. WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why? Chinese people watched Korean BW because the best BW players were Korean. Chinese people watched Chinese DotA because the best DotA players were Chinese. Does not explain why WC 3 overtook BW in popularity in China.
Because BW is an old ass game. WC3 overtook BW in popularity in every single country in the world besides Korea, proscene or not.
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On April 10 2012 14:37 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:28 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature. Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples. Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership? My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did. WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
You're comparing a game in its infancy (SC2) to an already established game like WC3 and Dota. Before there was a SKY, before there was an EHOME, there was a brand new game called WC3. It was fun, had great graphics, and most importantly was accessible to everyone. Why? Because it was FREE (with pirating). The scene developed because a broad range of people were able to play the game. How can you expect people enjoy watching competitive SC2 if they haven't even had an opportunity to play the game due to price?
Look at LoL: it's currently one of the most popular games in China right now. Chinese teams got raped at every international event other than IEM Guangzhou, yet it still retains its popularity. Why? The majority of LoL players don't even keep up with the competitive scene. Once again LoL is popular, not because of it's competitive scene, but because the average player can play for free and with their friends.
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On April 10 2012 14:50 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:47 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:46 red4ce wrote:On April 10 2012 14:37 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:28 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature. Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples. Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership? My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did. WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why? Chinese people watched Korean BW because the best BW players were Korean. Chinese people watched Chinese DotA because the best DotA players were Chinese. Does not explain why WC 3 overtook BW in popularity in China. Because BW is an old ass game. WC3 overtook BW in popularity in every single country in the world besides Korea, proscene or not.
I'm talking about viewership for the proscene, and I can tell you it didn't in the US - BW viewership was and is bigger in this country than WC 3 viewership. EU was a different story, but that's because they had a WC 3 proscene, whereas we didn't.
TBH, I think WC 3 is a terrible spectator sport, and have no idea why people switched to watching it; in China's and Europe's case, however, there is a decipherable rationale - great local proscenes.
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its a game about skill.
stupid to limit the talent when thousands of dollars are on the line. the players who are the best should get it, not people who got there by handicaps. end of story.
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On April 10 2012 15:01 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:37 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:28 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature. Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples. Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership? My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did. WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why? You're comparing a game in its infancy (SC2) to an already established game like WC3 and Dota. Before there was a SKY, before there was an EHOME, there was a brand new game called WC3. It was fun, had great graphics, and most importantly was accessible to everyone. Why? Because it was FREE (with pirating). The scene developed because a broad range of people were able to play the game. How can you expect people enjoy watching competitive SC2 if they haven't even had an opportunity to play the game due to price? Look at LoL: it's currently one of the most popular games in China right now. Chinese teams got raped at every international event other than IEM Guangzhou, yet it still retains its popularity. Why? The majority of LoL players don't even keep up with the competitive scene. Once again LoL is popular, not because of it's competitive scene, but because the average player can play for free and with their friends.
I'm not talking about the game's popularity - I'm talking about the game's viewership. A show match in Dota 2 between a washed out Chinese Dota star and an up and coming American team garnered 450,000 concurrent viewers. That's ten times the international viewership of the best players in the world in SC 2, and 2-3x that of LoL. You want to tell me again that local stars don't matter? Then tell me why Dendi - who is YaphetS's better in Dota 2 - never approaches those numbers in his streams and matches? Why Na'Vi, the best team in Dota 2, never gets those numbers?
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Limiting top level tournaments to regions is just a stupid idea.
However, what you can do is to get a foundation from which top level players can emerge so some day in the future, foreigners will be on par with korea. I don't know much about sports, but from what i understand from the german soccer structure is that there are regional teams (basically each small village has it's own team), then lots of teams for larger and larger areas (small town -> commune -> state -> national) that each compete in their own regional leagues and good players from each stage get picked up by the higher up teams until eventually a small village soccer star turns into a national star.
Think about a similar structure in SC2.
Having lots of small teams in regional leagues where you and a few friends can compete against other regional teams even if you are lower level and then the best players can work their way up and get scouted by top teams. That way you don't have to "go pro" immedatly, you can play competitively in regional leagues until you find a place in bigger leagues and you always have people around your skill level to practice with and push each other further up.
Regional Amateur leagues are the seeds from which top level stars grow. 99% of them won't ever be at the top, but the 1% have the potential to be global top stars.
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On April 10 2012 15:08 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:01 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:37 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:28 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature. Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples. Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership? My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did. WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why? You're comparing a game in its infancy (SC2) to an already established game like WC3 and Dota. Before there was a SKY, before there was an EHOME, there was a brand new game called WC3. It was fun, had great graphics, and most importantly was accessible to everyone. Why? Because it was FREE (with pirating). The scene developed because a broad range of people were able to play the game. How can you expect people enjoy watching competitive SC2 if they haven't even had an opportunity to play the game due to price? Look at LoL: it's currently one of the most popular games in China right now. Chinese teams got raped at every international event other than IEM Guangzhou, yet it still retains its popularity. Why? The majority of LoL players don't even keep up with the competitive scene. Once again LoL is popular, not because of it's competitive scene, but because the average player can play for free and with their friends. I'm not talking about the game's popularity - I'm talking about the game's viewership. A show match in Dota 2 between a washed out Chinese Dota star and an up and coming American team garnered 450,000 concurrent viewers. That's ten times the international viewership of the best players in the world in SC 2, and 2-3x that of LoL. You want to tell me again that local stars don't matter? Then tell me why Dendi - who is YaphetS's better in Dota 2 - never approaches those numbers in his streams and matches? Why Na'Vi, the best team in Dota 2, never gets those numbers?
Fans appreciate SC2 because they play it. The game is simply too esoteric for someone who has never played it to enjoy watching. If no one can play it because they can't afford it, then obviously the viewer numbers will be lower. You spent multiple posts arguing that SC2 gets lower viewer numbers than WC3 and Dota, when its not even a fair comparison to made. Chinese people have had free access over the span of MANY years to Dota and WC3. The same can not be said about SC2.
Also if you really want to make this argument then you should dispute my argument about the NBA vs the Chinese Super League or European soccer leagues vs the MLS.
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On April 10 2012 15:02 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:50 red4ce wrote:On April 10 2012 14:47 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:46 red4ce wrote:On April 10 2012 14:37 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:28 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:[quote] Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature. Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples. Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership? My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did. WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why? Chinese people watched Korean BW because the best BW players were Korean. Chinese people watched Chinese DotA because the best DotA players were Chinese. Does not explain why WC 3 overtook BW in popularity in China. Because BW is an old ass game. WC3 overtook BW in popularity in every single country in the world besides Korea, proscene or not. I'm talking about viewership for the proscene, and I can tell you it didn't in the US - BW viewership was and is bigger in this country than WC 3 viewership. EU was a different story, but that's because they had a WC 3 proscene, whereas we didn't. TBH, I think WC 3 is a terrible spectator sport, and have no idea why people switched to watching it. In China's and Europe's case, however, there is a decipherable rationale - great local proscenes.
The accessibility of Professional streams and tournaments to the average, casual player is so much greater nowadays than when BW or WC3 first came out. There are more factors governing which sports people watch, other than just the strength of the local pro scene.
Back when I used to play DOTA heavily the best players and teams were all European or Russian. MyM and vP were the 2 big teams. I am American and the American DOTA scene was very amateur compared to EU. I watched MyM vs. vP because they were by far the best teams at the time and vP especially was playing an aggressive, highly coordinated ganking style that was VERY different from the typical ricer, superfarm carry games that were popular at the time. It was much more exciting to watch the two very best teams duking it out, regardless of my nationality than it was to watch a complete stomp. Skill is what inspires people to want to succeed and the hopes of attaining that skill. Skill is what people want to see when they turn on a sport.
I was never into competitive BW, and I really only started learning about it when I got into SC2. However, I knew who boxer was, I'd seen the youtube clip of his ghost lockdowns vs. battlecruisers. I never knew who Idra or NoNy or Ret or any foreign SC BW pro was. Skill attracts attention and inspires fans.
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hmm alot of aguments about skill being the only important factor, sure skill is important but getting ppl to follow the tournament is much more profitable and intresting for alot of viwers.
in IPL4 i must confess i found the open bracket FAR more intresting and fun to follow then poolplay and championship sunday due to the diversity of players / countries / regions
it would be like watching a hundred metter race with 8 from jamaica or watching a race with 2 from jamaica 2 from US 1 from britan 1 from spain 1 from kenya etc. even if the skill gap is larger its still fun for the jamicans to watch burt now it just apeals to a whole lot of other countries as well, and as long as there are qulifieres before hand to make sure you get the best from the regions it should be the best man winning but just get broader apeal.
if I want to watch the best of the best i watch GSL if i want to watch multible countries including koereans fight wil watch IP / MLG / Dreamhack etc. but when that ends up being 80% koreans i dont really see the apeal to watch that rather then watching GSL where all the players are in prime condition and not yetlagged not used to the food not whatever else there is.
sry for misspelling etc.
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On April 10 2012 15:19 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 15:01 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:37 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:28 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature. Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples. Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership? My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did. WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why? You're comparing a game in its infancy (SC2) to an already established game like WC3 and Dota. Before there was a SKY, before there was an EHOME, there was a brand new game called WC3. It was fun, had great graphics, and most importantly was accessible to everyone. Why? Because it was FREE (with pirating). The scene developed because a broad range of people were able to play the game. How can you expect people enjoy watching competitive SC2 if they haven't even had an opportunity to play the game due to price? Look at LoL: it's currently one of the most popular games in China right now. Chinese teams got raped at every international event other than IEM Guangzhou, yet it still retains its popularity. Why? The majority of LoL players don't even keep up with the competitive scene. Once again LoL is popular, not because of it's competitive scene, but because the average player can play for free and with their friends. I'm not talking about the game's popularity - I'm talking about the game's viewership. A show match in Dota 2 between a washed out Chinese Dota star and an up and coming American team garnered 450,000 concurrent viewers. That's ten times the international viewership of the best players in the world in SC 2, and 2-3x that of LoL. You want to tell me again that local stars don't matter? Then tell me why Dendi - who is YaphetS's better in Dota 2 - never approaches those numbers in his streams and matches? Why Na'Vi, the best team in Dota 2, never gets those numbers? Fans appreciate SC2 because they play it. The game is simply too esoteric for someone who has never played it to enjoy watching. If no one can play it because they can't afford it, then obviously the viewer numbers will be lower. You spent multiple posts arguing that SC2 gets lower viewer numbers than WC3 and Dota, when its not even a fair comparison to made. Chinese people have had free access over the span of MANY years to Dota and WC3. The same can not be said about SC2. Also if you really want to make this argument then you should dispute my argument about the NBA vs the Chinese Super League or European soccer leagues vs the MLS.
Not at all, because what I'm pushing here is not a MLS of SC 2, but a format for international tournaments that sustains the rivalry between foreigners and Koreans. The analogy to your example is a league that has both Chinese basketball teams and NBA basketball teams, and teams from all over the world besides.
The format of present day foreigner tournaments is gradually eliminating foreigners from the competition. That is what I want to see changed. To do so, I have to argue that having both foreigners and Koreans in a tournament is better than having just Koreans, which is what tournaments are going to end up with going down this path.
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On April 10 2012 07:06 yawnoC wrote:
Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story.
This.
Any restriction on any player based on his/her race (IRL race) is stupid.
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First of all. Not every sport does that and if it does its not that the strict during regular season. These restrictions usually apply for Olympics and world championship. We don't have any level of competition when you don't represent your team but your country instead. I mean we used to but they are mobile now :D
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On April 10 2012 15:28 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:19 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 15:01 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:37 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:28 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:[quote] Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature. Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples. Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership? My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did. WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why? You're comparing a game in its infancy (SC2) to an already established game like WC3 and Dota. Before there was a SKY, before there was an EHOME, there was a brand new game called WC3. It was fun, had great graphics, and most importantly was accessible to everyone. Why? Because it was FREE (with pirating). The scene developed because a broad range of people were able to play the game. How can you expect people enjoy watching competitive SC2 if they haven't even had an opportunity to play the game due to price? Look at LoL: it's currently one of the most popular games in China right now. Chinese teams got raped at every international event other than IEM Guangzhou, yet it still retains its popularity. Why? The majority of LoL players don't even keep up with the competitive scene. Once again LoL is popular, not because of it's competitive scene, but because the average player can play for free and with their friends. I'm not talking about the game's popularity - I'm talking about the game's viewership. A show match in Dota 2 between a washed out Chinese Dota star and an up and coming American team garnered 450,000 concurrent viewers. That's ten times the international viewership of the best players in the world in SC 2, and 2-3x that of LoL. You want to tell me again that local stars don't matter? Then tell me why Dendi - who is YaphetS's better in Dota 2 - never approaches those numbers in his streams and matches? Why Na'Vi, the best team in Dota 2, never gets those numbers? Fans appreciate SC2 because they play it. The game is simply too esoteric for someone who has never played it to enjoy watching. If no one can play it because they can't afford it, then obviously the viewer numbers will be lower. You spent multiple posts arguing that SC2 gets lower viewer numbers than WC3 and Dota, when its not even a fair comparison to made. Chinese people have had free access over the span of MANY years to Dota and WC3. The same can not be said about SC2. Also if you really want to make this argument then you should dispute my argument about the NBA vs the Chinese Super League or European soccer leagues vs the MLS. Not at all, because what I'm pushing here is not a MLS of SC 2, but a format for international tournaments that sustains the rivalry between foreigners and Koreans. The analogy to your example is a league that has both Chinese basketball teams and NBA basketball teams, and teams from all over the world besides. The format of present day foreigner tournaments is gradually eliminating foreigners from the competition. That is what I want to see changed. To do so, I have to argue that having both foreigners and Koreans in a tournament is better than having just Koreans, which is what tournaments are going to end up with going down this path.
What rivalry are you talking about sustaining? And a gradual elimination is the best you can hope for, if you're rooting only for foreigners.
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On April 10 2012 15:28 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:19 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 15:08 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 15:01 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:37 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:28 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:[quote] Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature. Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples. Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership? My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did. WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why? You're comparing a game in its infancy (SC2) to an already established game like WC3 and Dota. Before there was a SKY, before there was an EHOME, there was a brand new game called WC3. It was fun, had great graphics, and most importantly was accessible to everyone. Why? Because it was FREE (with pirating). The scene developed because a broad range of people were able to play the game. How can you expect people enjoy watching competitive SC2 if they haven't even had an opportunity to play the game due to price? Look at LoL: it's currently one of the most popular games in China right now. Chinese teams got raped at every international event other than IEM Guangzhou, yet it still retains its popularity. Why? The majority of LoL players don't even keep up with the competitive scene. Once again LoL is popular, not because of it's competitive scene, but because the average player can play for free and with their friends. I'm not talking about the game's popularity - I'm talking about the game's viewership. A show match in Dota 2 between a washed out Chinese Dota star and an up and coming American team garnered 450,000 concurrent viewers. That's ten times the international viewership of the best players in the world in SC 2, and 2-3x that of LoL. You want to tell me again that local stars don't matter? Then tell me why Dendi - who is YaphetS's better in Dota 2 - never approaches those numbers in his streams and matches? Why Na'Vi, the best team in Dota 2, never gets those numbers? Fans appreciate SC2 because they play it. The game is simply too esoteric for someone who has never played it to enjoy watching. If no one can play it because they can't afford it, then obviously the viewer numbers will be lower. You spent multiple posts arguing that SC2 gets lower viewer numbers than WC3 and Dota, when its not even a fair comparison to made. Chinese people have had free access over the span of MANY years to Dota and WC3. The same can not be said about SC2. Also if you really want to make this argument then you should dispute my argument about the NBA vs the Chinese Super League or European soccer leagues vs the MLS. Not at all, because what I'm pushing here is not a MLS of SC 2, but a format for international tournaments that sustains the rivalry between foreigners and Koreans. The analogy to your example is a league that has both Chinese basketball teams and NBA basketball teams, and teams from all over the world besides. The format of present day foreigner tournaments is gradually eliminating foreigners from the competition. That is what I want to see changed. To do so, I have to argue that having both foreigners and Koreans in a tournament is better than having just Koreans, which is what tournaments are going to end up with going down this path.
Tournaments nowadays already do that. Look at IPL 4 for example. They seeded past IPL winners to guarantee foreigner seeds. It's not their fault foreigners can't keep up. You can even go as far as seeding 90%+ foreigners like WCG or Homestory Cup. Ultimately, the longer the tournament remains, the higher likelihood you would have a Korean vs Korean match. The only thing you can do is invite lower caliber Koreans, but even they are favored to win and at that point you risk LOSING viewership due to low caliber of play.
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Well, after reading most of the posts here, where users bring up the smaller leagues example - I agree, that on that "smaller" level, the number of players can be based on their nationality, but the biggest tournaments (IEM, MLG, IPL) shouldn't have those restrictions. As for the viewership - both fractions (those who seek skill and outstanding games and those, who are into cheering for players, not always the game itself) are somewhat right. But finding a solution for both of them is not really that easy for sponsors and organizers of tournaments. Comparisons between GSL and (let's say) NBA or NHL doesn't change anything. Players have to travel in order to get better. Look at the football leagues - local teams and leagues may prosper, but in the biggest scale, it all is international (and "old" Barcelona with Kluivert, Overmars and bunch of other Dutch comes to mind). To sum up - smaller tournaments and local leagues may operate on rules excluding koreans, but the biggest events should invite everyone. Or we should just wait until Blizzard's tournament kicks in.
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On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
To start from the top: Again, the fallback to bashing foreigners. I remember a time, not long ago, when Mana was among the few protoss players in all of SC2 who were able to beat Puma, with great anticipation and use of HTs not seen before. All that while playing in his spare time. Yes, Mana is a full-time student. But rather than cherish the talent it takes to compete with full time pros playing in your spare time, why not point out the faults in his PvZ matchup instead.
Good play does not only happen in Korea, just as SC2 innovation happens outside of Korea. Do you remember who pioneered the fast upgrades for spling -> infestor that is now a stable of all zergs and is played around 50% of the time in ZvT? Stephano, coming up with it on his own, playing on the European ladder and wrecking IPL 3 as a result. Has there been a more important metagame innovation for zergs? How did nestea play his ZvP against squirtle in the 4/8 games in which he didn't all-in/cheese/coin-flip? That's right, the 12 minute 200 food roach-ling 'Stephano' style.
As far as I could find the numbers, about the same number of viewers tune in to MLS as the PL (http://www.epltalk.com/epl-and-mls-neck-and-neck-in-mondays-tv-ratings-battle-on-espn2-40159). It's a bit hard to argue with your personal experience from China and Belize, but surely you recognize that a lot more than looking for the "best play" is going on here. Could teenagers in Belize be looking for something more than high level basketball when they watch NBA, do you think? Even more important, these were kids who play the game themselves. That's the big problem with SC2. No-one plays the game anymore.
Most importantly, you're again ignoring the issue that this quality of 'best' play is a relative rather than absolute quality and seem to think that the enjoyment of viewers are decided by the level of play. But what of the play a year ago, that was so much worse than it is today? Did you not enjoy yourself then? Were people simply deluded when they thought they were watching good matches?
What I'm telling you is that the level of play is only a part of the story, and not the most important part. Perhaps to us, the hardcore fans, the people who care enough to argue about SC2, and have watched the hundreds and thousands of hours of SC2 it takes to be able to tell the difference without being told. But we're not the majority of viewers and were not enough to sustain the current level of tournaments. For that you need the casuals, the sometime watchers and you need new viewers. Do you really believe that having future IPL tournaments, this time without Stephano to represent the foreign scene among the best in the world, would not and will not hurt the viewership?
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Of course, people will pay more attention if someone from their country does well in the sport/e-sport. However, this is due to the fact that person is doing well and not because he gets to participate since he is from a certain country. Even if we do have regional qualifiers, if the foreigner players don't step up, they will just lose in the opening rounds anyways and I doubt that would generate interest. Looking at Stephano, I am sure a lot of people tuned in since he was the last foreign hope. But he MADE it by playing well in his group. Do you think people would be interested if Stephano just got seeded into Ro8 because he was a foreigner?
How did nestea play his ZvP against squirtle in the 4/8 games in which he didn't all-in/cheese/coin-flip? That's right, the 12 minute 200 food roach-ling 'Stephano' style.
Only the foreigners call this the 'Stephano' style... The fast 3rd with roaches vs FFE has been around for a long time. Sure, Stephano has his variate and Nestea has his, as do other zergs...
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Arguments for more foreigner wins in the future:
As the scene grows the best Koreans can't be at every event all over the world thus making it easier for foreigners to make it.
The Korean teams will in the future invest in foreigner talent as it makes sense from a sponsorship and fan perspective.
The number of team houses in the foreign scene has gone from zero to more than five-six as far as i know and it will likely increase even more.
So I don't mind Koreans and remember that they had a head start with team houses, a big tournament and dedicated players.
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On April 10 2012 07:06 yawnoC wrote:
Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story.
This.
You want to limit the amount of Koreans because Foreigners are losing to them? Why not ban African Americans from basketball and football?
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Also, in the open bracket of 128 players, there were 34 koreans which is 26%. It is not really their fault for winning and taking all 8 seeds... So they play with a handicap like on OTR?
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EPT
