In light of the recent dominance in numbers of Korean players in the top of big international tournament, I thought that we could discuss if and how we should handle this. My feeling is that we only should have the best from each country in the top of international events, and not let countries with very good b, and c team dominate the top of the international competitions totally. Here are some of my thoughts.
The thing that a lot of ordinary sports do in its international competitions is to put limits on how many can compete from each country, often you get a number of spots based on the countries results in previous competitions. The logic behind this is that an international competition is suppose to be just that - International. The best players from each country, not the A, B, C , D team of the best countries.
The logic behind limiting the dominant nations from taking all the spots in competitions apart from keeping them international, is that you use the international competitions to grow the sports and create role-models in countries where the sport is not yet as big.
The dominant countries get to pick maybe there 6 or 7 best players and send them. That is enough to secure that you get a competitive competition. Watching the best players from the smaller countries get beaten by the B, C ,and D team of the big nations is just not in the best interest of any sport.
How to handle this in SC2? I don't even feel like starting but I got a few ideas. But if SC2 is going to keep growing beyond the hardcore fans, we need to get this issue sorted. This has the potential to really stunt the growth of SC2 as an e-sport. It also is not interesting to have the whole top 20 of a tournament filled with contestants from one country. Well it is to hard core fans of SC2 who only care about seeing a perfect micro and macro, or people who care specifficly about that country. But its not interesting to the casual fans. And you are not going to grow starcraft2 as an e-sport on hardcore starcraft-connoisseurs.
PS.Maybe you could have max: 5 players from a single country directly qualified/invited in to the top 20 group-stage, and 4 of the 20 spots going to anyone coming from the bracket. That would give a maximum of 9 players from one country in the top 20. That is still a lot but at least it is a tolerable amount. One example on how to solve it DS.
is there seriously a thread about this? Why not just ban Korea all together... No, the only thing that we can do is get better and dominate Korea, not restrict the amount of players they can send off to compete in our tournaments. this is just stupid...
It is becos of international tournaments that foreign teams are picking up Korean players anyway.
This idea is completely ridiculous, it is hardly the korean's fault that they have excellent training schedules. How about other countries step up to the plate and work harder, instead of giving them handouts?
I don't understand the point. You are suggesting that we watch overall lower level of play at major tournaments in order for a greater likelihood of whatever national preference you have to to win. Not unlike many people.
Some tournaments already have Korean qualifiers for some spots, I believe IPL is one of those events, but I think the style you are looking for is something like WCG.
Its a little unfortunate to me as a spectator because I don't give a shit what country they are from as to whether they win or not, but tournaments have to start worrying about including enough "favorite" foreigners to keep their view count up for sponsors/business reasons.
I don't think that a national quota system is really the best answer to the problem. I do think MLG's qualifier system is a good example of how to make it work though, where they have NA, EU, and KR qualifiers for the arenas, then the top of the arenas go to championship pools. This means that all three regions are equally represented at the Arena, but only those who can get past the first round go to the pools. This lets the best dominate, but gives regionally strong players a better chance to break through.
The real solution is to get a better infrastructure in place outside of Korea. In Korea they have many well supported teams with big rosters, whereas in the west we tend to have teams with relatively small rosters. By having big team rosters, up-and-coming players can learn from the best, and often become a new wave of talent. The rest of the world isn't lacking in talent, its just lacking in solid institutions to find and develop that talent.
Blame the "pro's" that can't be bothered to practice as hard or as seriously as the Koreans. Can you imagine if Basketball players were asking for Handicaps against Jordan back in the day because he was "too good"? Or Hockey players against Gretzky? They'd get laughed straight out of the sport.
Yep, I too didn't really like this IPL. Way too many Koreans, so I quickly lost and didn't really care who wins it. The problem was IPL paying trips for so many Koreans and European teams would have to send their players there on their own, which they didn't do, because there were 3 offline events going on at the same time in Europe.
David Ting already admitted his fault and said for IPL 5 there will be regional qualifiers so the regions in championship bracket will be more balanced.
On April 10 2012 07:02 KaptenCulpa wrote: In light of the recent dominance in numbers of Korean players in the top of big international tournament, I thought that we could discuss if and how we should handle this.
By celebrating the better quality of games for us viewers.
On April 10 2012 07:10 Hrrrrm wrote: Blame the "pro's" that can't be bothered to practice as hard or as seriously as the Koreans. Can you imagine if Basketball players were asking for Handicaps against Jordan back in the day because he was "too good"? Or Hockey players against Gretzky? They'd get laughed straight out of the sport.
Toughen up and get better or don't bother trying.
It's funny you say that because the "Gretzkys/Jordans" of SC2 haven't even arrived yet... But that's a whole other topic xd
Blizzard is doing the tournament to address this. Also GSL is very generous in giving foreigner seeds. Banning or hindering koreans would just be silly.
Just look at other sports. Snooker is dominated by british people, skiing is ruled by the Austrians. Starcraft is somewhat comparabale to these sports, because it's also not very mainstream and especially famous in one country, which ofc is South Korea.
As long as the Koreans work harder as everyone else, they will dominate. They also have a more dedicated player base. The best players win, end of story.
Who cares? Don't you just want to see the best play? Tournaments with quotas are so boring to watch. Watching guys who are only slightly better than me duke it out only to get smashed by top (usually Korean) players is a complete waste of time.
To be fair to the OP, this was in fact a subject which was brought up quite some time ago, in fact when the game was first released(possibly even during the days of beta). If you remember the infamous youtube video from Catz, he in fact brought this very issue up very early on as well - and received some notoriety due to his opinions. Now we've come full circle right back to what Catz was saying right from the start.
Basically Catz was saying, the events needs to be broken down into sub-events which represent just their immediate areas or specific geographic regions. And that for esports to truly grow, you can't always have Koreans dominate all the time, or the scene will grow stagnant and boring. So by imposing a region lock as a barrier, you raise heroes from the specific areas. And with heroes come a fanbase.
He had nothing against big tourneys which invite people from all over the world. That is totally fine. He was simply saying, we need more segregation on a smaller level - before we jump the gun over to the world arena.
--
Watching the last few tourneys, this did occur in the back of my mind as well, even all the while I was cheering for the winners.
The counter-argument to this, naturally is: If I pay any sum of money to watch a tourney, or otherwise dedicate an afternoon to watch SC2, I expect to see the best, not just B teamers. The counter-counter to this is, there is still a market for college basketball games, so would there not be a similar market for SC2? Hard to say, especially if where sponsorship is concerned. They would be concerned with small viewer count if there are no big names to attract fans.
Only bad things about koreans winning everyrhing is that, for example in the recent ipl, I didn't have a connection with either player or really cared who won. But it isn't really a problem.
Jesus Christ, fucking really? This is sounding like that blog TT1 wrote where he said that it's unfair that foreigners need to work harder in order to get better than the Koreans.
On April 10 2012 07:09 Avril_Lavigne wrote: Team liquid should implement a "like" function or thumbs up function to peoples responses. That way I can "like" the non ignorant.
Why you have to go and make things so complicated?
On April 10 2012 07:17 KvltMan wrote: Jesus Christ, fucking really? This is sounding like that blog TT1 wrote where he said that it's unfair that foreigners need to work harder in order to get better than the Koreans.
Jesus christ were my words exactly. I've taken to reply to enough of these threads that I stopped caring.
One of these threads comes out every week, ends up when the clusterfuck becomes to much and the mods close it.
It reminds me of that issue in America or Canada? Where Caucasian families/students were complaining about asian students studying harder than them and saying it was their fault.
What to do? Get used to it. SC is koreans game. They practice harder, take it more serious, and there are more of them trying to become pros. They are also very nationalistic so practicing with them will see limited results because they will sabotage foreigner who gets good whether sharing strats or just not practicing as much w/ them Korea will come first.
My take is a good country like sweden should get thier players together and work like koreans do only then will they stand a chance.
Wasn't there this exact same thread a week ago? There's nothing to do but wait. BW foreigners are already so entrenched in the pro scene because of their early success due to BW experience. A lot of them are clearly past their prime but their BW status keeps them valuable. Ideally, these players would move towards coaching positions on their respective teams and help younger talent develop. SC2 is the same as BW in the sense that the foreign scene has so little infrastructure that young players who could develop into GREAT players (ie, people like Illusion, Pyre, HeroMarine, but those that aren't teamed) don't get the opportunities or environment. Young people are always the future in sports, but SC2 is stuck in the past already.
What makes Korean players strong is their work ethic and dedication to the game. As soon as we can adopt those same standards, we can compete on the same level.
We don't do anything. This isn't a problem that we solve through delegation. Tournaments and competitions don't and can't do anything about it. The only thing that can be done is by the Foreign pros. They know what they need to do, play more/get better. Nothing that the fans say or do will affect them. It just needs to come to a point where a major portion of the pros say enough is enough and get their acts together to match the work ethic and dedication of Koreans. Until that happens. IPL4 will be standard in the community.
On April 10 2012 07:12 Dispersion wrote: Why are there so many black guys in the NBA? They're such a problem! They need to make it so only two guys can be on the floor at a time.
...seriously dude? They're better than us because they work harder.
The NBA is a bad example, didn't they have recent financial problems?
On April 10 2012 07:12 Dispersion wrote: Why are there so many black guys in the NBA? They're such a problem! They need to make it so only two guys can be on the floor at a time.
...seriously dude? They're better than us because they work harder.
The NBA is a bad example, didn't they have recent financial problems?
The real problem will be for foreign teams and their sponsors when their players can't make it out of LBR4 and get no coverage.
How will foreign teams be able to continue financially when they no longer even have a shot at qualifying for group play (as we saw with the IPL open bracket), and will never make it to a finals?
The idea that foreigners will just 'train harder' is unlikely. Only a few have even been able to come close to competing with the top Koreans now. If 10-12 years of BW is any sign, foreigners will be unlikely to compete at SC2 with them.
The problem for tournaments is that there is less fan connection to Korean players. There certainly is some, but enough to support 200,000 viewers over many years? I'm not sure.
korea actually does this with pro basketball (limited number of foreign players in the team), not sure about other sports.
i'm against it, i'm not sure why any of foreign players would agree to it either.
if the tournament is about being best of the best, why does race matter? world championship is a different matter (fair diversity like worldcup/olympics). not only that, mlg/ipl has had far greater % of foreign players attending...its just that koreans end up on top.
people were rooting for stephano like no other. foreigners need to improve their skill so we get more treats like this, organizers shouldn't have to manipulate regulations to achieve this
it sounds like you're sayingn lets cater to the foreigners so they have a chance if there are fewer koreans. this is retarded.
i may be biased though...i'm personally enjoying this korean domination ^_^
Obviously the answer here is to give advantages to the lazy foreigners who dont work as hard as the Koreans, lets just have them only bring a limited amount of them here and make them play with one hand tied. That sounds like a fair advantage .
If you people watch SC2 to see some guy from your country win you should just leave now, Koreans will always dominate the scene. Your favourite player just doesnt try as hard.
The foreign scene is too obsessed with drama as opposed to talent. There might be some real dedicated players in NA and EU that get overlooked because of that. Maybe the foreign scene needs to die in order for some actual talent to resurrect from its ashes.
On April 10 2012 07:11 Champloo wrote: Yep, I too didn't really like this IPL. Way too many Koreans, so I quickly lost and didn't really care who wins it. The problem was IPL paying trips for so many Koreans and European teams would have to send their players there on their own, which they didn't do, because there were 3 offline events going on at the same time in Europe.
David Ting already admitted his fault and said for IPL 5 there will be regional qualifiers so the regions in championship bracket will be more balanced.
The raw performance of the players is something that David Ting cannot control.
Open that and you see some of the varied winners who took home $1000 each. Then do a Search for "Notable open bracket sign-ups"
In that extensive list there - I absolutely concede there there's just a ton of Koreans in that list, yes. But you can still see an extremely varied lineup of just tons of different players from all over the world.
To the IPL's credit, I'm seeing even names in that list that I've never heard of before. They are definitely giving people a chance. Fan favorites like QXC, Sheth, Dimaga, Jinro(!)...all those great names are all there.
If I understand correctly, these people unfortunately didn't make it through the Open Brackets but...again without some creative shuffling of the matches to absolutely guarantee more foreigner faces vs Korean ones...tough to say. For example, pitting the Koreans vs each other to eliminate the count down, whilst trying to "preserve" the foreigners may or may not be viewed as the utmost fairest way to run the tourney, but these are just my opinions.
It's easier to "make it" in the foreigner scene just being a good personality and streaming. Why practice and be actually good at the game when it's 99999x harder and never a sure thing you will succeed?
Starcraft is a game of (mostly) skill, so the best players should win. Seeding bad players into tournaments would make for worse games and you would probably still not enjoy it, since the seeded players would get crushed in the most onesided ways possible.
As long as there are qualifiers and open brackets the system will be fine and the players deserving of group play will get there.
I also think that Starcraft can only be really enjoyed when you understand the basics of the game and from that point on I think good play or personality of a player (Koreans aren't robots either) can be a good reason to cheer for a player. Nationality is not so much an issue, especially since this is the internet which is rather international anyways.
So basically we should punish someone who obviously has a great passion and talent for the game because of where they were born? (which you realize, they have no control over?) ...yeah no
As someone who was at ipl I can tell you the Korean players deserve all their success and more. They work harder, they work together and the simply care more than most. Any efforts to restrict their individual success is a step in the wrong direction....they are a great example or all young competitors to learn from.
If foreigners fall further behind, so be it.....the sanctity of the competition is more important than seeing foreigners do well.
so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
There is no way to 'catch up'. The Korean scene has more pros living under better conditions than all of the foreign scene put together. There is no way to compete with that.
The foreign scene will have the very talented (or dedicated) few (Stephano, naniwa, sase, huk) who can compete with the best, and then a bigger contingent that can consistently make upsets (Thorzain, Kas, Titan, ret etc.) Most likely, this tendency will only get stronger. Without a doubt, this will have a negative impact on viewership and interest in tournaments. Unfortunately, the foreign teams hiring every more Korean players and diverting investment away from the foreign scene are only hurrying this development.
The one positive is that it seems as if there may be springing up practice houses around europe and USA. Will it make a difference? Hard to tell.
I think at the end of the day, I for one want to see the best games possible. I think that the best way to fix this is by having regional qualfiers for pool play to ensure that foreigners get at least group play. I really don't see any reason why foreigners need a handicap. They can compete with the koreans. They just need to play better. It's that simple. The better player should win. IPL 4 had a ton of koreans they had the GSTL Finals, which means 2 korean teams were thrown into the open bracket, these are code A and Code S players. The odds of getting out of that chaos is very hard. I think there were more "pro" koreans at the end of the day than foreigners.
What to do? - Fap? :O) Seriously, what's the big problem? Good SC2 gameplay at events? Tragedy? And the big problem with sending N top from each important country to each event is travel costs. In US you get mostly US players, which means only a few are really top world players; same for EU. No moneiz to travel everywhere so that's that.
I think you have the misconception that simply being Korean makes you so much better than foreign players Korean teams, on average, probably put in a lot more practice time than foreign teams do, and thus, you can see the results that come from having such a work ethic. So, in short, I think you should address not the nationality of the players, but whether players who don't perform as well are putting in the same amount of practice time and effort.
There is nothing to do except hope that foreign pro's start playing more and more and try to compete. Not many pro's play a ton, not like the koreans. Also team houses and coaches help koreans a lot as well, but some foreign teams do have team houses and hopefully it starts helping out soon.
On April 10 2012 07:28 jinorazi wrote: korea actually does this with pro basketball (limited number of foreign players in the team), not sure about other sports.
i'm against it, i'm not sure why any of foreign players would agree to it either.
if the tournament is about being best of the best, why does race matter? world championship is a different matter (fair diversity like worldcup/olympics). not only that, mlg/ipl has had far greater % of foreign players attending...its just that koreans end up on top.
people were rooting for stephano like no other. foreigners need to improve their skill so we get more treats like this, organizers shouldn't have to manipulate regulations to achieve this
it sounds like you're sayingn lets cater to the foreigners so they have a chance if there are fewer koreans. this is retarded.
i may be biased though...i'm personally enjoying this korean domination ^_^
On competition that comes to mind is the olympic games where there are restriction on how many players each country can have in diffrent events. I mean Canada could probably qualify 3 hockey teams if the where allowed to.
I have no problems with koreans winning every tournament. The best players should win. But i don't think turning international events in to Korean nationals is a good idea. Send the Korean top players to international events and kick some ass. I love to have them at international events. But just because 90 of the 100 best players in the world are Korean doesn't mean that all international competitions should have that composition of nationalities.
I'm sure if it was Europe or the US dominating, you wouldn't ever see threads like this here, which is really depressing. Is no one a fan of the highest level play? That's like saying you refuse to watch Brazilian/European football or Kenyan runners because your country isn't winning, whatever happened to loving the game for the high level of play?
Threads like this are depressing as fuck, just shows how shallow SOME people can be. Notice how i didn't put all.
On April 10 2012 07:11 Champloo wrote: The problem was IPL paying trips for so many Koreans and European teams would have to send their players there on their own, which they didn't do, because there were 3 offline events going on at the same time in Europe.
Yes, IPL 4 in particular was skewed towards Koreans, because they had the opportunity to get free travel. Not that it would have made the biggest difference in the overall results, but it exaggerated the trend.
On April 10 2012 07:08 TerlocSG wrote: "You guys are too good, we don't want to play with you anymore cause you keep winning all the time."
How does that sound?
Sums up the post pretty well.
I want to see a good competition not a newb stomp show match where Incontrol is somehow the best player in the tournament because we've shut out all the players that have the skill to compete.
There is only one possible solution: Clone Stephano and train his clones into the pros of the next generation. The korean throne shall be taken by a surprise attack of the clone players. At last the foreign lords shall have their revenge.
Poorly disguised movie references. Seem like a reasonable option.
On April 10 2012 07:38 Juissi wrote: Stephano is the only reason i might open sc2 streams nowdays. When Stephano drops out, stream goes down.
So you are a fan of Stephano, and not a fan of high level play. Got it.
Yes it's same with many other sports. It's not like i could care less to watch every single game of basketball/football/ice hockey. When favorite team plays, for sure i watch.
if every event is all korean sc2 viewerships will decrease, simply high level play is not enough to grow a sport it needs starpower/personality in which koreans are horrible most of the ppl watching are gold and below do you think they can all appriciate every subtle high leve lmove the koreans execute? what a joke
On April 10 2012 07:27 Xirroh wrote: The real problem will be for foreign teams and their sponsors when their players can't make it out of LBR4 and get no coverage.
How will foreign teams be able to continue financially when they no longer even have a shot at qualifying for group play (as we saw with the IPL open bracket), and will never make it to a finals?
The idea that foreigners will just 'train harder' is unlikely. Only a few have even been able to come close to competing with the top Koreans now. If 10-12 years of BW is any sign, foreigners will be unlikely to compete at SC2 with them.
The problem for tournaments is that there is less fan connection to Korean players. There certainly is some, but enough to support 200,000 viewers over many years? I'm not sure.
^ This.
Everybody is all about "ESPORTS ESPORTS" but esports I do not think will grow outside of Korea if the most important thing which is the gamers themselves cant consider it something that will provide for them to live a comfortable life.
Foreign players are trying to work harder and trying to improve to compete with the Koreans but the problem is that because the Koreans have already been doing this for so long they are simply much better at the whole process of creating talent and maintaining that talent.
Foreign players really do Invest much of their time into this and barely 1% of them get anything back for that time investment, once people realize this they also realize that with that amount of time they invest they could probably do anything else and make more money and have a lot less stress in their lives and that is the point where they quit or start to practice less...
The solution obviously isn't to exclude Koreans from major events like MLG, IPL, NASL I think it would be to have leagues or tournaments where foreigners could compete against each other and not against Koreans, There they could be rewarded for their efforts and more foreign players could make money there would be more motivation among foreign players to compete and prepare for these events and I think that by itself would create a better quality of talent among foreign players that perhaps one day could be on par with the Koreans.
At this point I cant even play in a Playhem daily where the top prize is 45 or 60 USD without having to defeat several code A or code S level Koreans to get there. Sure I could always get better and then possibly beat them but my belief is that they have a better overall practice model and practice environment so its not likely that I'm ever going to get better than them.
I rather watch koreans than foreigners honestly, foreigners are garbage compared to koreans and i only want to watch the best.
Oh you have a tournament for foreigners only? Looks like I won't watch, or you don't let koreans come in favor of bad foreigners I won't watch. Its not the koreans fault that foreigners are generally lazy, if all the foreigners had work ethics like Idra, Naniwa, Huk etc etc they would be dominating.
On April 10 2012 07:11 Champloo wrote: Yep, I too didn't really like this IPL. Way too many Koreans, so I quickly lost and didn't really care who wins it. The problem was IPL paying trips for so many Koreans and European teams would have to send their players there on their own, which they didn't do, because there were 3 offline events going on at the same time in Europe.
David Ting already admitted his fault and said for IPL 5 there will be regional qualifiers so the regions in championship bracket will be more balanced.
I don't even understand what this means, or how you can actually like watching sub par players playing this game. Do you like minor league baseball more than the majors.?
This whole idea of excluding Koreas because of their skill is really pathetic. People tried to hide behind this veil excuses of "fostering national talent" but it's really nothing more than blind nationalism and jealousy. They are better than anyone in the world, and some people just can't handle that it seems.
Yeah, in IPL the difference was bigger then what it might have been as almost all European players other than Stephano, the Liquid players and Dimaga went to one of three lans in Europe this weekend, and at the same time IPL spend a lot of money on flying in ~15-20 Korean players. Even so, Stephano got 5-6 and would have had a decent shot at winning the tournament, had he had won the coin-flip match against Nestea (alive not the best TvZ and squirtle P).
Incidentally, I still think the top foreign players can compete, but the IPL4 lineup was just insanely stacked all round. Players like Taeja and Hero who made the ro16 in this season's Code S didn't get out of the open brackets, and there were some good, deep runs from Huk and SaSe especially. Stephano did pretty well in the championship bracket.
I don't feel that the IPL4 experience should be the final nail in the coffin when it comes to foreign aspirations. It wasn't a case of mid-tier Koreans beating on the top foreigners, but the top Korean players doing as expected, with some decent performances from the top-tier foreigners in addition.
In addition I've always felt that if foreigners want to properly compete they need to take a leaf out of the book of Huk, Sase, Jinro, Naniwa and those players who, when they committed to go to Korea and train, they actually committed. There is no sense in doing what somebody like Idra did which is pop over for a month, and then leave with little to no discernible improvement in play noticeable.
The downside of doing that are these top foreign players are limiting their potential earning power in foreign tournaments as they don't tend to go to quite as many as the EU/NA based ones, I mean Nani didn't even attempt to go to IPL4 as he's set on proving himself in Code S
Foreigners have to have team houses, its really the only way to even potentially get to the level of korean players. There is an exceptional few that stand out when practicing alone, but most foreigners need physical team houses. Strict practice schedules. And a coaching figure to help them analyze replays, think up strats. Most people practice over skype, but its really not the same. Watching the IPLLIVEU stream i noticed everytime a korean won, there was 5-6 other koreans talking to them(probably about strats, what they could of done better, and probably thinking how they could beat the strat used or how their playstyle is.) There are a couple teams that have houses, but whats the practice schedule like? is it really just relaxed? my guess is probably.
Koreans take the game 10x more srsly than foreigners due (my opinion) they win every tournament not only because they get to practice, analyze and create a social bond between teammates. I feel if every team that can and could afford a team house did this, set up schedules 8-12 hours a day, and hired on coaches and did analysis of games won/lost, I feel not only would they be able to do better against koreans, they might actually win a couple of tournaments.
When you see foreigners streaming with skype in the backround with their teammates you never really hear analysis of games, usually they just talk about random shit, and they say regame, you want to play, im gonna go ladder (not specific phrases, but close enough)
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
On April 10 2012 07:52 Kamikiri wrote: I rather watch koreans than foreigners honestly, foreigners are garbage compared to koreans and i only want to watch the best.
Oh you have a tournament for foreigners only? Looks like I won't watch, or you don't let koreans come in favor of bad foreigners I won't watch. Its not the koreans fault that foreigners are generally lazy, if all the foreigners had work ethics like Idra, Naniwa, Huk etc etc they would be dominating.
Considering the amount of financial support they receive from their teams, It's very easy to have a work ethic like theirs.
On April 10 2012 07:27 Xirroh wrote: The real problem will be for foreign teams and their sponsors when their players can't make it out of LBR4 and get no coverage.
How will foreign teams be able to continue financially when they no longer even have a shot at qualifying for group play (as we saw with the IPL open bracket), and will never make it to a finals?
The idea that foreigners will just 'train harder' is unlikely. Only a few have even been able to come close to competing with the top Koreans now. If 10-12 years of BW is any sign, foreigners will be unlikely to compete at SC2 with them.
The problem for tournaments is that there is less fan connection to Korean players. There certainly is some, but enough to support 200,000 viewers over many years? I'm not sure.
^ This.
Everybody is all about "ESPORTS ESPORTS" but esports I do not think will grow outside of Korea if the most important thing which is the gamers themselves cant consider it something that will provide for them to live a comfortable life.
Foreign players are trying to work harder and trying to improve to compete with the Koreans but the problem is that because the Koreans have already been doing this for so long they are simply much better at the whole process of creating talent and maintaining that talent.
Foreign players really do Invest much of their time into this and barely 1% of them get anything back for that time investment, once people realize this they also realize that with that amount of time they invest they could probably do anything else and make more money and have a lot less stress in their lives and that is the point where they quit or start to practice less...
The solution obviously isn't to exclude Koreans from major events like MLG, IPL, NASL I think it would be to have leagues or tournaments where foreigners could compete against each other and not against Koreans, There they could be rewarded for their efforts and more foreign players could make money there would be more motivation among foreign players to compete and prepare for these events and I think that by itself would create a better quality of talent among foreign players that perhaps one day could be on par with the Koreans.
At this point I cant even play in a Playhem daily where the top prize is 45 or 60 USD without having to defeat several code A or code S level Koreans to get there. Sure I could always get better and then possibly beat them but my belief is that they have a better overall practice model and practice environment so its not likely that I'm ever going to get better than them.
Thank God someone realizes that there's an issue here. The mantra of saying "practice harder" is convenient but still ridiculous and will lead to the demise of the foreign scene.
Simply put, there's no way around it. With Japanese baseball, Chinese Basketball, etc. there's always an appeal. Unfortunately, outside of a few select tournaments (eg. The Gathering), any tournament that doesn't bring in Koreans is not going to do well. As such, the only way to have sustainable prize pools is to have Koreans, and then foreigners are taken out of the picture.
Essentially the foreigner scene is going to be dead within a couple of years, in my opinion, outside of maybe a couple of very strong teams.
On April 10 2012 07:52 Kamikiri wrote: I rather watch koreans than foreigners honestly, foreigners are garbage compared to koreans and i only want to watch the best.
Oh you have a tournament for foreigners only? Looks like I won't watch, or you don't let koreans come in favor of bad foreigners I won't watch. Its not the koreans fault that foreigners are generally lazy, if all the foreigners had work ethics like Idra, Naniwa, Huk etc etc they would be dominating.
Considering the amount of financial support they receive from their teams, It's very easy to have a work ethic like theirs.
Its not like the Korean players are given large salaries to compensate them for the time they put in........
And, the dominance you're seeing isn't because it's recent. It's because they're sending enough players that Foreigners can't get to the finals from lucky format.
On April 10 2012 08:01 mastergriggy wrote: hmmm...What to do...what to do? How about we stop trying to impede starcraft by suggesting banning people better than us?
/thread
No one's saying to ban them - simply put, if you took the top 50 players in the world I'd bet that 40 - 45 of them would be Korean.
That's an issue because essentially, as foreign players find they cannot have a sustainable career out of SC2 (unless you're one of those 5 players, or you are a personality a la Destiny or InControl), they're going to leave. And then the foreigner scene is gone.
Easy to say "work harder" - I don't think it's practical or helpful.
On April 10 2012 07:44 Klonere wrote: I think a better question is: Are Viewing Figures going to suffer because of Korean domination?
I have certainly seen a lot of people saying that they just auto leave if a tourney only has Koreans in it
That is a genuine concern as well. Though it may be the antithetical viewpoint to many posters on here, E-sports is still a growth industry and has commercial obligations. If Korean dominance has a noticeable impact on viewing figures this may come into the thinking of tournament organisers.
Just to clarify, I personally don't mind the Koreans dominating tournaments, and indeed the criticism that they 'lack personality' is exposed as false more and more with the increased publicity that they are getting in the foreign scene. However at a pragmatic level IF viewing figures are dropping off perhaps organisers will start to approach things differently, at the very least perhaps not pay quite so much of their expenses?
On April 10 2012 07:52 Kamikiri wrote: I rather watch koreans than foreigners honestly, foreigners are garbage compared to koreans and i only want to watch the best.
Oh you have a tournament for foreigners only? Looks like I won't watch, or you don't let koreans come in favor of bad foreigners I won't watch. Its not the koreans fault that foreigners are generally lazy, if all the foreigners had work ethics like Idra, Naniwa, Huk etc etc they would be dominating.
Considering the amount of financial support they receive from their teams, It's very easy to have a work ethic like theirs.
On April 10 2012 07:52 Kamikiri wrote: I rather watch koreans than foreigners honestly, foreigners are garbage compared to koreans and i only want to watch the best.
Oh you have a tournament for foreigners only? Looks like I won't watch, or you don't let koreans come in favor of bad foreigners I won't watch. Its not the koreans fault that foreigners are generally lazy, if all the foreigners had work ethics like Idra, Naniwa, Huk etc etc they would be dominating.
Considering the amount of financial support they receive from their teams, It's very easy to have a work ethic like theirs.
Its not like the Korean players are given large salaries to compensate them for the time they put in........
Huge difference.
Idra, HuK, etc. are given large salaries and are fine.
Players from Vile, ItsGosu, etc. probably not so much.
The disparity is huge.
In Korea, you only get prize money if you're good, but at least you have a home and food, even if you're not MVP or MKP. It's not profitable unless you're good but it is sustainable.
Ask a foreigner to train for 10 hours a day and he's going to go broke unless he is one of the lucky few.
WCG has restrictions on national representatives because it's a tournament where NATIONS compete against each other. There's a tally for the amount of wins each nation racks up. However, it's stupid to have such restrictions for individual tournaments where nationality does not affect the scoring. In such cases, you go by the best players/seeding regardless of where the players are from.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
On April 10 2012 08:01 mastergriggy wrote: hmmm...What to do...what to do? How about we stop trying to impede starcraft by suggesting banning people better than us?
/thread
No one's saying to ban them - simply put, if you took the top 50 players in the world I'd bet that 40 - 45 of them would be Korean.
That's an issue because essentially, as foreign players find they cannot have a sustainable career out of SC2 (unless you're one of those 5 players, or you are a personality a la Destiny or InControl), they're going to leave. And then the foreigner scene is gone.
Easy to say "work harder" - I don't think it's practical or helpful.
This is a much better argument than what the original post said. But it seems like it is the same argument that is always made: if a foreigner wants to be as good as a Korean top pro, they need to practice as much. Financially, they have to decide and figure out early on if they want to be strained for money (if they don't make it I mean) and are willing put the work in.
Eh some people will never learn why koreans are the best at BW , Sc2 ... They are PRO PLAYERS !! Pro , they only play game , and dont do anything else..just plays.. Most of foreigners are SEMI PRO players..., they have school , studies.. work etc. only like 10% of foreigners , or even less , are full time pro players.. E-sport still must grown in EU / NA
On April 10 2012 07:11 Champloo wrote: Yep, I too didn't really like this IPL. Way too many Koreans, so I quickly lost and didn't really care who wins it. The problem was IPL paying trips for so many Koreans and European teams would have to send their players there on their own, which they didn't do, because there were 3 offline events going on at the same time in Europe.
David Ting already admitted his fault and said for IPL 5 there will be regional qualifiers so the regions in championship bracket will be more balanced.
I don't even understand what this means, or how you can actually like watching sub par players playing this game. Do you like minor league baseball more than the majors.?
This whole idea of excluding Koreas because of their skill is really pathetic. People tried to hide behind this veil excuses of "fostering national talent" but it's really nothing more than blind nationalism and jealousy. They are better than anyone in the world, and some people just can't handle that it seems.
Tell your pros to just get better
But that's the problem, they don't have the same kind of infrastructure in place that the Koreans do. The Koreans feed off of each other's strats, they are all friends with each other, and there's just all kinds of information passed between each other that the foreigners wouldn't be privy to.
Right now there needs to be some kind of widespread collaboration, I don't know, I'll just call it "Operation Korea"(guys please, it's JUST AN EXAMPLE), where all the big foreigners just huddle together, plan a method of attack, study their foes judiciously and operate strategies custom-tailored to beat said foe. If this is not already in action(I wouldn't know), then this needs to happen somehow, somewhere. The attitude needs to be shifted towards a more "win or I don't eat" one.
On April 10 2012 08:05 MayorITC wrote: WCG has restrictions on national representatives because it's a tournament where NATIONS compete against each other. There's a tally for the amount of wins each nation racks up. However, it's stupid to have such restrictions for individual tournaments where nationality does not affect the scoring. In such cases, you go by the best players/seeding regardless of where the players are from.
No one's saying for the GSL (considered the PREMIER tournament) to have restrictions.
Here's the problem.
When you look at a traditional sports model, no one is playing in more than one league (MAYBE two with soccer transfers and whatnot). So you don't need restrictions.
The best players play in the Premier League/La Liga/etc., while the other leagues are reserved for worse players, regardless of nationality.
With SC this only happens in Code S and Code A. You can play in both Code S and MLG. And Dreamhack. And IPL.
And that's where the problem arises - essentially, a small group of individuals dominate a large number of tournaments.
Not saying there's an easy fix, but some of the opinions on here clearly lack understanding.
On April 10 2012 07:10 Hrrrrm wrote: Blame the "pro's" that can't be bothered to practice as hard or as seriously as the Koreans. Can you imagine if Basketball players were asking for Handicaps against Jordan back in the day because he was "too good"? Or Hockey players against Gretzky? They'd get laughed straight out of the sport.
Toughen up and get better or don't bother trying.
You're an idiot, you don't run with 1000 USA teams in the world cup, you run with 1. That was his point. A single player is not a team.
On April 10 2012 08:01 mastergriggy wrote: hmmm...What to do...what to do? How about we stop trying to impede starcraft by suggesting banning people better than us?
/thread
No one's saying to ban them - simply put, if you took the top 50 players in the world I'd bet that 40 - 45 of them would be Korean.
That's an issue because essentially, as foreign players find they cannot have a sustainable career out of SC2 (unless you're one of those 5 players, or you are a personality a la Destiny or InControl), they're going to leave. And then the foreigner scene is gone.
Easy to say "work harder" - I don't think it's practical or helpful.
On April 10 2012 08:01 mastergriggy wrote: hmmm...What to do...what to do? How about we stop trying to impede starcraft by suggesting banning people better than us?
/thread
No one's saying to ban them - simply put, if you took the top 50 players in the world I'd bet that 40 - 45 of them would be Korean.
That's an issue because essentially, as foreign players find they cannot have a sustainable career out of SC2 (unless you're one of those 5 players, or you are a personality a la Destiny or InControl), they're going to leave. And then the foreigner scene is gone.
Easy to say "work harder" - I don't think it's practical or helpful.
This is a much better argument than what the original post said. But it seems like it is the same argument that is always made: if a foreigner wants to be as good as a Korean top pro, they need to practice as much. Financially, they have to decide and figure out early on if they want to be strained for money (if they don't make it I mean) and are willing put the work in.
I understand your point, but saying this is essentially going to scare off any kind of potential foreigner.
I really think having developmental leagues with up and coming talent (not limiting by nationality, but maybe by performance) would benefit the scene. Potentially players who have been in Code A or S, or have finished top X at MLG/IPL/etc. would be barred from competing.
The problem is no one would want to run such a league as it wouldn't be as profitable (Nash Equilibrium). But it would be good in the long run.
On April 10 2012 07:52 Kamikiri wrote: I rather watch koreans than foreigners honestly, foreigners are garbage compared to koreans and i only want to watch the best.
Oh you have a tournament for foreigners only? Looks like I won't watch, or you don't let koreans come in favor of bad foreigners I won't watch. Its not the koreans fault that foreigners are generally lazy, if all the foreigners had work ethics like Idra, Naniwa, Huk etc etc they would be dominating.
Considering the amount of financial support they receive from their teams, It's very easy to have a work ethic like theirs.
Its not like the Korean players are given large salaries to compensate them for the time they put in........
You are correct, however in Korean teams its not uncommon for some amount of the prize winnings of players like Nestea MVP MMA MC, to be given to the team so that the rest of the team may live comfortably and the team house can be maintained. Even if some of the less talented players on those teams don't make top GSL, KSL, ESV finishes they still do just as much work to help the players that do go that far to prepare.
On April 10 2012 08:01 mastergriggy wrote: hmmm...What to do...what to do? How about we stop trying to impede starcraft by suggesting banning people better than us?
/thread
No one's saying to ban them - simply put, if you took the top 50 players in the world I'd bet that 40 - 45 of them would be Korean.
That's an issue because essentially, as foreign players find they cannot have a sustainable career out of SC2 (unless you're one of those 5 players, or you are a personality a la Destiny or InControl), they're going to leave. And then the foreigner scene is gone.
Easy to say "work harder" - I don't think it's practical or helpful.
No, 49 would be Korean and one would be Stephano.
Are you serious? For the purposes of this argument it doesn't matter - please don't derail the thread.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't like the idea that tournaments being dominated by koreans is mutually exclusive to esports getting bigger, and thus, we need to ban koreans. Why not just get the infastructure to support foreign players better?
The Korean scene has more young talent too, it's kind of sad. You could say that Korea would do well initially because of all the people transferring over from Brood War, but that hasn't been especially true. A lot of the current best players are b-teamers and practice partners, simply people that had potential but never really made it. There is no good excuse for the foreign scene to have more players, to have all your top players from BW and WC3 switch over (unlike in Korea, where the top didn't switch) and still be completely unable to produce any new world-class players except for Stephano and HuK. (i.e. Idra doesn't count since he was already established) There's just so little talent in the foreign scene, even if it should exist.
My guess is the talent exists, but they just don't take the game seriously. I'm not talking about pros who don't practice enough, but just people that are diamond playing only a few games a week or so. There has to be some of them with equal talent to the Koreans. It's actually hard to see one's talent playing only a few games, there are many players that benefit a lot from 'grinding', and you never get a chance to see your skill potential with just playing a few games now and then on instinct.
I think we do need to keep foreign talent relevant. European players being so successful in Warcraft 3 is one of the reasons they're quite good at SC2 nowadays. Grubby's success probably inspired lots of people to start playing RTS games (I know this because I was always impressed reading interviews with him in our newspapers -- media do take occasional interest in e-sports) I also think you can't have a relevant foreign scene that can be taken seriously by newcomers if in a premiere tournament like IPL, there are 3 foreigners in the top 20. (with Idra and White-Ra going 0-4 in groups)
I think the MLG Arena qualifiers have the right idea. Regional qualifiers are wonderful for this. Everyone has a chance to sign up and try to qualify to get to play at the second-most important tournament for SC2, yet you still ensure that at least 8 top Koreans have a chance to raise the skill level and legitimacy of the event. It wouldn't work if it was like Brood War and WCG, where Koreans were so much better it was stupid, but top foreigners can occasionally take games still, so it can work out. IPL was different because the bracket was so tough and a lot of the best foreigners were missing, so the open bracket was like some insane gauntlet.
I mean, TSL1/2 had a no Korean policy and those tournaments did a lot for the foreign scene. You can't just tell the top 10 USA players that: "you're too bad compared to the Koreans, they're going to take your spot" when being top 10 in the USA should be a really big accomplishment. Though with excluding Koreans next thing you'll get them joining foreign teams and moving to the USA, like Chinese players do in pingpong and such.
On April 10 2012 07:08 TerlocSG wrote: "You guys are too good, we don't want to play with you anymore cause you keep winning all the time."
How does that sound?
Koreans bar amount of foriegn basketball players can play n thier leagues otherwise it would be 100% American and a few European and get no viewers.
Same for Japanese baseball or Sumo.
Just sayin. Business model may dictate other things besides pure merit.
We're not forced to import dumb rules from other sports tho
I don't think those rules are dumb. I support a local football club and I dislike they have a dozen random players from Eastern Europe, South-America etc. that don't speak Dutch and will only play here for two years, developing, and then get sold off to some foreign team. It makes me lose some emotional connection to the team compared to them having players that originate from the same city as me. I don't care too much, I suppose, but it does play a role. Compare with SC2: a lot of people find it fun to cheer for or against IdrA, which they wouldn't have been able to if he was just some Korean. Being elitist and going on about: "only best play matters" is silly, having people to relate to and cheer for helps one get an emotional connection to the sport, which is what we all want.
Koreans have been the best for over a decade and this doesn't just change over the course of a few months. Outside of a few it will take many years for the infrastructure to compare to what Korea has that can produce many quality players.
Maybe instead of blaming and punishing the players who actually take Starcraft seriously prop the up bottom instead. Instead of banning Koreans from big events create a minor leagues that focuses on improving the play of the NA/EU scene.
It also doesn't help much that a large chuck of EU players insist on never traveling to events outside of the European tournaments.
On April 10 2012 08:12 goiflin wrote: I don't like the idea that tournaments being dominated by koreans is mutually exclusive to esports getting bigger, and thus, we need to ban koreans. Why not just get the infastructure to support foreign players better?
You're right, having the infrastructure here would help alleviate the issue.
Now who's paying to put that infrastructure here? No one's dumb enough to do that.
On April 10 2012 07:52 Kamikiri wrote: I rather watch koreans than foreigners honestly, foreigners are garbage compared to koreans and i only want to watch the best.
Oh you have a tournament for foreigners only? Looks like I won't watch, or you don't let koreans come in favor of bad foreigners I won't watch. Its not the koreans fault that foreigners are generally lazy, if all the foreigners had work ethics like Idra, Naniwa, Huk etc etc they would be dominating.
Considering the amount of financial support they receive from their teams, It's very easy to have a work ethic like theirs.
All of Complexity money going to the Koreans?
I am not speaking for just myself but foreign players that I know on other teams like Vile and ItsGoSu. And No.
So what we need is some sort of multi-millionaire ESPORTS evangelist to setup, run and grow a foreigner Proleague style tournament as well as negotiating with every single notable foreigner organisation to centralize said competition in one location, probably in America and finally expect them never to make money out of it. This would allow foreigners to congregate in one location, setup team-houses and practice like the Koreans. Oh and somehow make pro-gaming as acceptable a "profession" as it is in Korea (although it isn't that acceptable there either)
On April 10 2012 08:12 goiflin wrote: I don't like the idea that tournaments being dominated by koreans is mutually exclusive to esports getting bigger, and thus, we need to ban koreans. Why not just get the infastructure to support foreign players better?
You're right, having the infrastructure here would help alleviate the issue.
Now who's paying to put that infrastructure here? No one's dumb enough to do that.
Hey now, I just said what we SHOULD do. I didn't say I knew how it could happen!
Stop dividing them as a separate entity. Stop with the mindset of 'us versus them'. See them simply as really great players and appreciate them as such. If a foreign player does really well, he's also just that: a really great players. If you just learn to appreciate players for their skill and gameplay rather then whether or not they're from outside of korea you'll be able to appreciate the games that the SC2 scene will bring no matter what happens.
On April 10 2012 08:01 mastergriggy wrote: hmmm...What to do...what to do? How about we stop trying to impede starcraft by suggesting banning people better than us?
/thread
No one's saying to ban them - simply put, if you took the top 50 players in the world I'd bet that 40 - 45 of them would be Korean.
That's an issue because essentially, as foreign players find they cannot have a sustainable career out of SC2 (unless you're one of those 5 players, or you are a personality a la Destiny or InControl), they're going to leave. And then the foreigner scene is gone.
Easy to say "work harder" - I don't think it's practical or helpful.
This is a much better argument than what the original post said. But it seems like it is the same argument that is always made: if a foreigner wants to be as good as a Korean top pro, they need to practice as much. Financially, they have to decide and figure out early on if they want to be strained for money (if they don't make it I mean) and are willing put the work in.
I understand your point, but saying this is essentially going to scare off any kind of potential foreigner.
I really think having developmental leagues with up and coming talent (not limiting by nationality, but maybe by performance) would benefit the scene. Potentially players who have been in Code A or S, or have finished top X at MLG/IPL/etc. would be barred from competing.
The problem is no one would want to run such a league as it wouldn't be as profitable (Nash Equilibrium). But it would be good in the long run.
Well no, this would be bad. Then GSL Champions would be barred from MLG/IPL then? Can you imagine what this does to the hype? Especially when you highlight the player's achievements...there is a clearly defined underdog against a freaking GSL Champion. Seriously if this doesn't make for a David vs Goliath story I don't know what else would.
We can't be cutting out potential success stories out of the equation...if some no-name suddenly takes out Nestea, MMA, MC, etc, dude that's an enormous story right there for the person. It changes someone overnight from a no-name to a "name-brand" player.
On April 10 2012 08:15 gillon wrote: Stop dividing them as a separate entity. Stop with the mindset of 'us versus them'. See them simply as really great players and appreciate them as such. If a foreign player does really well, he's also just that: a really great players. If you just learn to appreciate players for their skill and gameplay rather then whether or not they're from outside of korea you'll be able to appreciate the games that the SC2 scene will bring no matter what happens.
Okay, great.
Now the foreign scene dies. Don't know where you're going with this. You can't ask for every spectator's attitude to change, you need to cater your product to your consumers.
On April 10 2012 08:01 mastergriggy wrote: hmmm...What to do...what to do? How about we stop trying to impede starcraft by suggesting banning people better than us?
/thread
No one's saying to ban them - simply put, if you took the top 50 players in the world I'd bet that 40 - 45 of them would be Korean.
That's an issue because essentially, as foreign players find they cannot have a sustainable career out of SC2 (unless you're one of those 5 players, or you are a personality a la Destiny or InControl), they're going to leave. And then the foreigner scene is gone.
Easy to say "work harder" - I don't think it's practical or helpful.
This is a much better argument than what the original post said. But it seems like it is the same argument that is always made: if a foreigner wants to be as good as a Korean top pro, they need to practice as much. Financially, they have to decide and figure out early on if they want to be strained for money (if they don't make it I mean) and are willing put the work in.
I understand your point, but saying this is essentially going to scare off any kind of potential foreigner.
I really think having developmental leagues with up and coming talent (not limiting by nationality, but maybe by performance) would benefit the scene. Potentially players who have been in Code A or S, or have finished top X at MLG/IPL/etc. would be barred from competing.
The problem is no one would want to run such a league as it wouldn't be as profitable (Nash Equilibrium). But it would be good in the long run.
Well no, this would be bad. Then GSL Champions would be barred from MLG/IPL then? Can you imagine what this does to the hype? Especially when you highlight the player's achievements...there is a clearly defined underdog against a freaking GSL Champion. Seriously if this doesn't make for a David vs Goliath story I don't know what else would.
We can't be cutting out potential success stories out of the equation...if some no-name suddenly takes out Nestea, MMA, MC, etc, dude that's an enormous story right there for the person. It changes someone overnight from a no-name to a "name-brand" player.
I said a developmental tournament, not MLG/IPL -_-
Also I never said this was good for any one organization, but if you want organic long-term growth in the business you have to take radical steps.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
Not saying any country should be banned im just saying that a format where each country only should send there best players and not the b, c, and d team too just cause they are better then the other countries best players. In reality 45 of the 50 best players are probably from korea. I think its bad for sc2 as an e-sport if our big international competitions have that compesition, however fair it might be to individual players.
On April 10 2012 08:18 Kraznaya wrote: For all the people using Korean basketball as an example: who watches Korean basketball? How many good basketball players has Korea produced?
Koreans watch Korean basketball. And obviously it's successful because it's still ongoing and profitable.
On April 10 2012 07:27 Xirroh wrote: The real problem will be for foreign teams and their sponsors when their players can't make it out of LBR4 and get no coverage.
How will foreign teams be able to continue financially when they no longer even have a shot at qualifying for group play (as we saw with the IPL open bracket), and will never make it to a finals?
The idea that foreigners will just 'train harder' is unlikely. Only a few have even been able to come close to competing with the top Koreans now. If 10-12 years of BW is any sign, foreigners will be unlikely to compete at SC2 with them.
The problem for tournaments is that there is less fan connection to Korean players. There certainly is some, but enough to support 200,000 viewers over many years? I'm not sure.
^ This.
Everybody is all about "ESPORTS ESPORTS" but esports I do not think will grow outside of Korea if the most important thing which is the gamers themselves cant consider it something that will provide for them to live a comfortable life.
Foreign players are trying to work harder and trying to improve to compete with the Koreans but the problem is that because the Koreans have already been doing this for so long they are simply much better at the whole process of creating talent and maintaining that talent.
Foreign players really do Invest much of their time into this and barely 1% of them get anything back for that time investment, once people realize this they also realize that with that amount of time they invest they could probably do anything else and make more money and have a lot less stress in their lives and that is the point where they quit or start to practice less...
The solution obviously isn't to exclude Koreans from major events like MLG, IPL, NASL I think it would be to have leagues or tournaments where foreigners could compete against each other and not against Koreans, There they could be rewarded for their efforts and more foreign players could make money there would be more motivation among foreign players to compete and prepare for these events and I think that by itself would create a better quality of talent among foreign players that perhaps one day could be on par with the Koreans.
At this point I cant even play in a Playhem daily where the top prize is 45 or 60 USD without having to defeat several code A or code S level Koreans to get there. Sure I could always get better and then possibly beat them but my belief is that they have a better overall practice model and practice environment so its not likely that I'm ever going to get better than them.
Thank God someone realizes that there's an issue here. The mantra of saying "practice harder" is convenient but still ridiculous and will lead to the demise of the foreign scene.
Simply put, there's no way around it. With Japanese baseball, Chinese Basketball, etc. there's always an appeal. Unfortunately, outside of a few select tournaments (eg. The Gathering), any tournament that doesn't bring in Koreans is not going to do well. As such, the only way to have sustainable prize pools is to have Koreans, and then foreigners are taken out of the picture.
Essentially the foreigner scene is going to be dead within a couple of years, in my opinion, outside of maybe a couple of very strong teams.
When the foreign scene dies, then so be it. And when it does, it is not the fault of the Koreans. To strengthen your own national scene, there is a lot one can do. Support and hype small and mid scale tournaments on home soil, like the recent Texas Clash and ONOG. Promote and actively participate in CSL. Organize your own team to attend the collegiate league. Offer help, do voluntary work, do coverage or artistic work.
Attention brings sponsorship. Sponsorship allows growth. Growth makes it easier for rising talents and established players to focus on their training. The problem are not the Koreans but the viewer. You can help and raise awareness of your own scene. When the foreign scene dies, it's out of lack of interest. A personal choice to support the existing talent (i.e. VileIllusions impressive IPL run), or not. It is in your own hand. Awareness and being proactive, not protectionism.
Some people think if non Koreans practiced 16 hours a day they'd win more. Imo, it's about the depth of players and also the fact many top foreigners aren't able to or don't want to practice in team houses. I think the benefit of team houses is about the organization and structure and quality of practice rather than raw practice time. It feels like a lot of foreigners don't want to treat the game like a job and more of a big passion rather than profession. Those two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but many people have the fear of losing their love for something once they do it for a living and not as an outlet for pure enjoyment.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
Doesn't artificially altering the playing field so more foreigners can participate somewhat de-legitimize starcraft, since people who aren't necessarily the best are playing on equal terms with people who are considerably better than them, while people who are still better than the first group aren't participating period?
On April 10 2012 08:01 mastergriggy wrote: hmmm...What to do...what to do? How about we stop trying to impede starcraft by suggesting banning people better than us?
/thread
No one's saying to ban them - simply put, if you took the top 50 players in the world I'd bet that 40 - 45 of them would be Korean.
That's an issue because essentially, as foreign players find they cannot have a sustainable career out of SC2 (unless you're one of those 5 players, or you are a personality a la Destiny or InControl), they're going to leave. And then the foreigner scene is gone.
Easy to say "work harder" - I don't think it's practical or helpful.
No, 49 would be Korean and one would be Stephano.
Are you serious? For the purposes of this argument it doesn't matter - please don't derail the thread.
My point is only that you underestimated the KR dominance. I was surprised that most of the foreign pros I spoke to at ipl felt they had no chance against anyone Korean. They literally consider them in a different league and are mentally defeated before the game even starts. I think Huk ,Nani, sase are around top 50......but its close.....there are a ton of amazing unknown kr players.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair.
Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc.
Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene.
I think your view of this issue is a little bit skewed. We had a lot of foreigner victories. Stephano made it really far, scarlett beat a korean player and almost took out Oz, Illusion took out 3 code S players. At the same time though, we had WAY more koreans at this event than we've ever had before. We had all of team MVP and all of team ST, in addition to all of the liquid, EG, SK, Fnatic, CoL korean players, and also the korean players who qualified through the qualifying tournaments. We just need to keep improving.
The best should get to be the best and go to any tournament they please. Foreigners can win, they must practice harder. Would you really rather watch lower quality of play games?
On April 10 2012 08:22 Comeh wrote: Doesn't artificially altering the playing field so more foreigners can participate somewhat de-legitimize starcraft, since people who aren't necessarily the best are playing on equal terms with people who are considerably better than them, while people who are still better than the first group aren't participating period?
Does the existence of the Chinese Basketball Association de-legitimize the NBA?
Does the existence of Minor Hockey Leagues de-legitimize the NHL?
Does the existence of Arena Football de-legitimize the NFL?
Does the existence of the hundreds of English soccer leagues de-legitimize the Premier League?
You can see the sheer effectiveness of the korean practice model just by looking at how much foreigners improve just by practicing in korea for short periods of time. The fact of the matter is they have a superior practice environment and mentality, and while some foreigners with a ton of natural skill (stephano and nani come to mind especially) can compete even with their subpar practice, the same can't be said for the other 99%. Until foreigners begin to practice like the koreans, they will not be able to really compete, and the koreans shouldn't be punished for having a superior system in place.
On April 10 2012 08:23 dsousa wrote: My point is only that you underestimated the KR dominance. I was surprised that most of the foreign pros I spoke to at ipl felt they had no chance against anyone Korean. They literally consider them in a different league and are mentally defeated before the game even starts. I think Huk ,Nani, sase are around top 50......but its close.....there are a ton of amazing unknown kr players.
Ill quote the IPL LiveU stream, when Lani was with TT1, Dimaga, ToD
Lani asked about their results etc, TT1 was like "we will get the koreans next time" Lani was taking twitter questions one of the questions was "TT1, do you really believe what you said about foreigners getting the koreans next time?" TT1: "No lol theyre too good"
I think OP has a fair point. I've stopped really watching most starcraft because every tournament all the players I've heard of lose to Koreans, and I just don't have anybody to root for. Koreans may play better, but for me I don't know who to support from the vast number of players who are often inconsistent, offer little insight to their personalities in their interviews and have remarkably similar playstyles. I'm sure for hardcore fans who watch GSL everyday etc, this just sounds naive, but it's true for me. Supporting people by their nationality is probably quite arbitrary, but it happens in everything - I support England in football, when I admire the way Spain plays more, I support Arsenal because I live in London, but Barcelona or Man United are better teams. It's just hard to get behind random players for no real reason.
why would anyone care about foreigners doing well in a tournament with minimal koreans?
should we boot koreans out of mlg so incontrol can get top 4 again? everyone would realize that the competition is a joke, and winning the tournament still makes you bad.
at least with koreans, people like scarlett are being recognized even if they don't get top 32.
On April 10 2012 08:26 Varth wrote: You can see the sheer effectiveness of the korean practice model just by looking at how much foreigners improve just by practicing in korea for short periods of time. The fact of the matter is they have a superior practice environment and mentality, and while some foreigners with a ton of natural skill (stephano and nani come to mind especially) can compete even with their subpar practice, the same can't be said for the other 99%. Until foreigners begin to practice like the koreans, they will not be able to really compete, and the koreans shouldn't be punished for having a superior system in place.
Okay, I agree.
So who's footing the bill to have these practice houses in North America and Europe? Who's paying to fly in all the best players into one location to practice together? Who's paying for their living expenses, food, etc?
No one's blaming the Koreans - what they do is great. But it is unrealistic to expect Foreigners to be able to do it. Teams like RGN have tried already and failed.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair.
Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc.
Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene.
Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place.
I do not know what to do about this, but I agree in general that it is a problem. Probably the only real solution is for foreign players to be better at the game, as other posters have mentioned, but I don't know how reasonable this is, given the mecca that is Korea.
If I want to watch the best Koreans compete, I would (and do) watch the GSL, and love every minute of it.
Whenever I watch an international tournament like the IPL, I get excited for the games that pit players from different countries together, but that once the inevitable Korean dominance emerges, I am less engaged.
I think for me it is about expectations. When I watch the IPL I expect to see a diverse set of games, and am disappointed if it becomes GSL west.
I love watching the highest level of SC2 competitors and I am glad I bought a GSL annual pass to do just that.
I also thoroughly enjoy watching and cheering on Nestea, MMA, MVP, MKP and DRG etc when they attend Foreign events.
However there is a reason Huk, Naniwa and Stephano get the most views when they are playing either during Lan's or streaming ladder.
It is not good for eSports that its utterly dominated by one country and after the Hotbid interview with David Ting it is clear changes are a foot to ensure more balance whilst safe guarding the participation of Super GM's from Code S.
For eSports to grow it needs to expand Globally and for that we need more Stephano's, Huk's and Naniwa's to come out the wood work. I am hoping teams will continue to support and grow talent in NA and Europe becaue as has been said here, the best and most efficident way to fix this and it really does need fixing is to get the hell better.
On April 10 2012 08:22 Comeh wrote: Doesn't artificially altering the playing field so more foreigners can participate somewhat de-legitimize starcraft, since people who aren't necessarily the best are playing on equal terms with people who are considerably better than them, while people who are still better than the first group aren't participating period?
Does the existence of the Chinese Basketball Association de-legitimize the NBA?
Does the existence of Minor Hockey Leagues de-legitimize the NHL?
Does the existence of Arena Football de-legitimize the NFL?
Does the existence of the hundreds of English soccer leagues de-legitimize the Premier League?
Dude, think before you post. What is SC2 compared to those sports? Where is the money for these lower tier leagues going to come from? Who is actually going to watch them? Maybe they should just make it so you have to live in US or EU to play in playhem. Then you and the OP can be happy.
On April 10 2012 08:27 svi wrote: why would anyone care about foreigners doing well in a tournament with minimal koreans?
should we boot koreans out of mlg so incontrol can get top 4 again? everyone would realize that the competition is a joke, and winning the tournament still makes you bad.
at least with koreans, people like scarlett are being recognized even if they don't get top 32.
I think you need to re-read my post, I said excluding the Koreans from MLG is NOT the solution
Also even if scarlet's name is now recognized, she still went home with 0 dollars. At the end of the day how long can someone justify not making any money while spending just as much time on this as they would working a full time job
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
I was just mentioning that comparison with other, established and lucrative sports is a false one on a financial level, but I agree with everything else said. Even Flash pales in earning power with even the most average, run-of-the-mill golf pro. In most large sports, contractual certainty or in the case of tennis/golf, the generous and well-spread prize money means that you can afford to be an 'average' professional in those fields. You can enjoy fulfilling your passion but without being absolutely broke. In Starcraft you can't really afford to support yourself in the 'West' unless you are absolutely top-tier, which requires full-time play to the detriment of everything else. Perhaps yes, if you want to follow your dreams the sacrifice is worth it, but you can't really deny it IS a sacrifice.
To that end you see top foreign players supplementing their income with coaching/streaming and other ways of generating income. It's this barrier that stops them really concentrating on playing the game, a barrier that the Korean team-house model largely alleviates.
There is enough money in the foreign scene, supposedly to do what you're saying, and more should be put into infrastructure I am 100% in agreement, in fact I agree with your points in general, was just clarifying what I meant earlier. I like what Quantic have done with their partnership, no coincidence that two of the most consistently strong foreigners are now practicing in a Korean environment. Fnatic on the other hand just seem to be buying Korean talent to fly into events, but the benefits aren't trickling down to their foreign contingent (although it's early days yet).
A final point is I don't view it as amount of practice, or indeed efficiency of practice alone that's separating the two scenes currently. The presence of dedicated coaches in Korea is something that just isn't aped in the foreign scene and is too frequently omitted from this discussion.
most people prefer a good story instead of the best possible play, even though people pretend otherwise here. emotion is always the key seller.
and i do think we have a problem and i think a lot of people are way to harsh to the op. don't be so ignorant to his point. it is valid.
but i think we could solve the "problem" with less "superstar" events and more normal ones. in soccer we have the very popular national leagues in europe and then we have the champions league where the best of the best of europe clash at each other. in sc we almost only got the champions league right now and it is damaging everything below and also the champions league itself, because it's just too much. champions league has to be something special. something happening once a year. in sc we have a world final with the best players almost 2 times a month.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
i watched some of the gathering this weekend and i had a lot more fun than with ipl. the semifinals grubby vs lucifron and thorzain vs bratok, those were some thrilling excellent games with a nice storyline and players a lot of demographics can connect with.
if people want to see the best players we already got the gsl which also crowns a new champion way to often. but if people really want to see that kind of best of the best stuff we already got it. no need to make 20 tournaments with the same concept. people will get fed with it sooner or later.
On April 10 2012 08:22 Comeh wrote: Doesn't artificially altering the playing field so more foreigners can participate somewhat de-legitimize starcraft, since people who aren't necessarily the best are playing on equal terms with people who are considerably better than them, while people who are still better than the first group aren't participating period?
Does the existence of the Chinese Basketball Association de-legitimize the NBA?
Does the existence of Minor Hockey Leagues de-legitimize the NHL?
Does the existence of Arena Football de-legitimize the NFL?
Does the existence of the hundreds of English soccer leagues de-legitimize the Premier League?
Dude, think before you post. What is SC2 compared to those sports? Where is the money for these lower tier leagues going to come from? Who is actually going to watch them? Maybe they should just make it so you have to live in US or EU to play in playhem. Then you and the OP can be happy.
I agree. You haven't read any of my other posts.
I'm saying if everyone acts in their best interests foreign SC2 will die. And because everyone will, foreign SC2 will die.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that no, there isn't enough money in the foreigner scene to do what you have described. I am going to list the current major teams in SC2 and whether or not they have a team house.
North American Teams
compLexity - No [Partnership with MVP, Trimaster present, Drewbie and Naniwa formely residents] Evil Geniuses - Yes [Also partnership with Slayers, no foreigners currently there] It's Gosu - No Quantic Gaming - No [Partnership with Startale, SaSe and Nani present, Destiny formely resident] Team Vile - No CheckSix Gaming - No Infinity Seven - No LighT eSports - No [Bootcamped in Kawaii's basement pre-MLG Columbus 2012] vVv Gaming- No
European Teams
Team Liquid - No [Partnership with OGS, Haypro, Jinro present, TLO, Ret formely residents] AbsoluteLegends - No [Partnership with ProS house, Naama former resident, house is moving to LoL] mousesports - No [They have a house for bootcamps IIRC] SK Gaming - No Team ALTERNATE - No mTw - No Team Acer - No Type Gaming - Yes [Two Koreans, one foreigner present, TT1 and Cloud also residents, unsure of status now] Millenium - Yes [Almost full roster present] Team Empire - No RoX.KIS - No [They did have one for bootcamps in BW IIRC] Dignitas - No Fnatic - Yes [Effectively another Korean teamhouse in Seoul, full of Koreans, ToD sole foreigner present]
Oh nice, the weekly thread about koreans slapping the shit out of everyone else, it's become some sort of a tradition in TL I might say.
Like always, the only answer is: If you limit the number of participants per country, you sacrifice the quality of the games. SC2 lives today because of the korean/foreigner 'rivalry', it's not their fault that the latter have been sucking way too much in comparison lately.
On April 10 2012 08:27 svi wrote: why would anyone care about foreigners doing well in a tournament with minimal koreans?
should we boot koreans out of mlg so incontrol can get top 4 again? everyone would realize that the competition is a joke, and winning the tournament still makes you bad.
at least with koreans, people like scarlett are being recognized even if they don't get top 32.
I think you need to re-read my post, I said excluding the Koreans from MLG is NOT the solution
Also even if scarlet's name is now recognized, she still went home with 0 dollars. At the end of the day how long can someone justify not making any money while spending just as much time on this as they would working a full time job
LOL Scarlett wasn't even a pro and she outperformed most of the foreign "pros". If foreign teams don't have money to support their players, or just spend it on Korean players instead of supporting their foreign players, as you are suggesting, that is an entirely different problem that the OP plan does nothing to help.
Maybe when the western pro gamers stop bragging about how little they practise and quit everything (including secondary education) to devote themselves to playing starcraft we will see a balanced scene. Until then, the Korean players will dominate. This is not a bad thing and anyone who says Korean domination of esports is in fact a bad thing is just a moron.
On April 10 2012 08:27 svi wrote: why would anyone care about foreigners doing well in a tournament with minimal koreans?
should we boot koreans out of mlg so incontrol can get top 4 again? everyone would realize that the competition is a joke, and winning the tournament still makes you bad.
at least with koreans, people like scarlett are being recognized even if they don't get top 32.
I think you need to re-read my post, I said excluding the Koreans from MLG is NOT the solution
Also even if scarlet's name is now recognized, she still went home with 0 dollars. At the end of the day how long can someone justify not making any money while spending just as much time on this as they would working a full time job
LOL Scarlett wasn't even a pro and she outperformed most of the foreign "pros". If foreign teams don't have money to support their players, or just spend it on Korean players instead of supporting their foreign players, as you are suggesting, that is an entirely different problem that the OP plan does nothing to help.
Uhh yes it does. Having prize money earmarked for developing talent (players not at Stephano or Idra's level either) will encourage people to continue to develop their skills.
Not saying it would happen, but it would be good if it did.
On April 10 2012 08:27 drag_ wrote: I think OP has a fair point. I've stopped really watching most starcraft because every tournament all the players I've heard of lose to Koreans, and I just don't have anybody to root for. Koreans may play better, but for me I don't know who to support from the vast number of players who are often inconsistent, offer little insight to their personalities in their interviews and have remarkably similar playstyles. I'm sure for hardcore fans who watch GSL everyday etc, this just sounds naive, but it's true for me. Supporting people by their nationality is probably quite arbitrary, but it happens in everything - I support England in football, when I admire the way Spain plays more, I support Arsenal because I live in London, but Barcelona or Man United are better teams. It's just hard to get behind random players for no real reason.
I feel exactly the same way. U put it so well into words.
On April 10 2012 08:39 Swwww wrote: Maybe when the western pro gamers stop bragging about how little they practise and quit everything (including secondary education) to devote themselves to playing starcraft we will see a balanced scene. Until then, the Korean players will dominate. This is not a bad thing and anyone who says Korean domination of esports is in fact a bad thing is just a moron.
Because we all just have money flowing out of our pockets, none of us have to pay expenditures out of pocket while trying to practice 10 hours a day?
Its a delicate situation to handle - I think its necessary for foreigners to do better in order to help SC2 grow, but on the other hand, I definitely don't want to have the level of play in tournaments lowered by restricting Korean players and such just to help non-Korean pro gamers.
Sometimes I just feel foreigners get too intimidated by Koreans, though I understand that players (in any sport) generally look worse when against a superior opponent, far too often I see very basic mistakes that were not forced errors, but simply nerve/choking issues. And the only way to solve confidence issues is to just practice as hard imo. Think about it, unless you believe Koreans to be genetically superior in starcraft, if you really trained as hard as they do - why would you not believe that you have a 50/50 shot?
Of course I know you have to have the infrastructure of training such as teamhouses, but for instance, EG has an incredibly nice one, still they don't post particularly impressive results (the ones who do were generally already good prior, aside from Demuslim perhaps). In the end, its all about the dedication and drive, which most foreigners simply don't have unfortunately =(
Did not read the whole thread, but since when is korean dominance news? Yeah it sucks when your favorite player gets owned up early in a tournament but don't we all want to watch the highest level competitive starcraft 2? Limiting koreans from tournaments would just in the end make the foreign scene look even weaker by forcibly restricting some of the top players in the world.
I don't think this is a problem at all, I think the best should be winning and that's just how it is right now.
On April 10 2012 08:27 svi wrote: why would anyone care about foreigners doing well in a tournament with minimal koreans?
should we boot koreans out of mlg so incontrol can get top 4 again? everyone would realize that the competition is a joke, and winning the tournament still makes you bad.
at least with koreans, people like scarlett are being recognized even if they don't get top 32.
I think you need to re-read my post, I said excluding the Koreans from MLG is NOT the solution
Also even if scarlet's name is now recognized, she still went home with 0 dollars. At the end of the day how long can someone justify not making any money while spending just as much time on this as they would working a full time job
LOL Scarlett wasn't even a pro and she outperformed most of the foreign "pros". If foreign teams don't have money to support their players, or just spend it on Korean players instead of supporting their foreign players, as you are suggesting, that is an entirely different problem that the OP plan does nothing to help.
I haven't said anything about foreign teams supporting Koreans over their players I don't know why you keep mentioning that.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair.
Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc.
Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene.
Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place.
I don't even think foreign teams want to have team houses in the first place because of the chance of failure(RGN is one that comes to mind). That's why they want to sign Korean players because they have the better chance of improving and winning(this is more to Complexity then other teams).
On-topic, Koreans are dominate because they practice harder than foreigners. Simple as that, and it's not a problem.
On April 10 2012 08:39 Swwww wrote: Maybe when the western pro gamers stop bragging about how little they practise and quit everything (including secondary education) to devote themselves to playing starcraft we will see a balanced scene. Until then, the Korean players will dominate. This is not a bad thing and anyone who says Korean domination of esports is in fact a bad thing is just a moron.
Because we all just have money flowing out of our pockets, none of us have to pay expenditures out of pocket while trying to practice 10 hours a day?
Because we all are forced to play SC2 as a full time job instead of just going to school and making a living like most other people... please. If it's not feasible, it's not feasible.
Limiting Koreans so that foreigners can fight for the scraps of the prize pool is ridiculous. You think that money is going to buy team houses and trips to other countries and food? No sports team relies solely on winnings... that's just not sustainable.
Maybe, if each foreigner country sacrifices a virgin upon the harvest moon, we might appease the Koreans so they let us compete in peace without the constant threat of them stealing our beloved prize monies.
...Seriously wasn't there a thread relating to the same topic up not 2 weeks ago. This IPL was fucking AMAZING, and I bring it up because I'm assuming 15/16 Koreans in the championship bracket this weekend might have influenced this post. I know there are people that want to see foreigners win, but the interplay between foreigners and Koreans bring about more hype and more viewership than a bunch of foreigners in a tourney with some Koreans. Your quote would hurt the general idea behind invitational tournaments, and team interplay to find and agree on the top 6 or 7 candidates from a country would be quite difficult without the necessary hassle and preparation of a qualifier...then you're just placing the burden on them. Have open brackets, have regional qualifiers, and whoever gets the spots fucking deserves it.
The reason a lot of foreigner pros are up in arms at the moment regarding Korean entry into tournaments is that there isn't enough footroom to establish yourself in the scene, with more qualifiers if you legitimately have the skill needed to break into the scene....you'll break into it. Look at Illusion, he takes out some Koreans in a teamleague, including some current or ex code S players, BOOM featured and a large fanbase. If tourments have open qualifiers and foreigners get in, it will solve the problem. If they get streamrolled by Koreans before the cutoff...too bad. Why should we sympathize, there will always be a way to get your foot in the door if you put the work in.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair.
Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc.
Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene.
Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place.
I don't even think foreign teams want to have team houses in the first place because of the chance of failure(RGN is one that comes to mind). That's why they want to sign Korean players because they have the better chance of improving and winning(this is more to Complexity then other teams).
On-topic, Koreans are dominate because they practice harder than foreigners. Simple as that, and it's not a problem.
Teamhouses are difficult to organise in the States due to the sheer geographical size of the place, likewise the size of Europe. I had a search for the thread but couldn't find it alas, but I found it interesting that one of the reasons put forward for the strength of the Korean scene is that it's centred around Seoul. Having a centralised 'hub' for Starcraft, where most of the pros end up based, just helps to foster a competitive scene there.
Actually depending on the location of the team house it can pay for Itself with all the money the team would save on plane tickets and such, the real problem is filling it with players who would be willing to make that sacrifice.
Well you just need the same kind of environment that you have in south korea or real sports. Main stream media coverage, team houses, personal coaches, prestigous, well organized tourneys, a lot of fans and an organization like Kespa/FIFA to represent StarCraft2/E-Sports.
Then the non korean societies will look at professional StarCraft2 players the same way they look at let's say a professional tennis player. Young men will think of it as a career choice and not something you do for a couple of years beacuse its fun and easy money. And these young men will probably be able to compete with koreans since they too start to play StarCraft2 when they are 10 years old.
So yeah, I guess it's not going to happen anytime soon.
On April 10 2012 08:39 Swwww wrote: Maybe when the western pro gamers stop bragging about how little they practise and quit everything (including secondary education) to devote themselves to playing starcraft we will see a balanced scene. Until then, the Korean players will dominate. This is not a bad thing and anyone who says Korean domination of esports is in fact a bad thing is just a moron.
Because we all just have money flowing out of our pockets, none of us have to pay expenditures out of pocket while trying to practice 10 hours a day?
Because we all are forced to play SC2 as a full time job instead of just going to school and making a living like most other people... please. If it's not feasible, it's not feasible.
Limiting Koreans so that foreigners can fight for the scraps of the prize pool is ridiculous. You think that money is going to buy team houses and trips to other countries and food? No sports team relies solely on winnings... that's just not sustainable.
Okay, fine. So the foreigner scene dies.
I know that's okay with you, but that's not okay with a lot of people, and SC2 as a whole will suffer if that happens. There's a reason why GOM keeps inviting foreigners to play in Code A and S even if most of them won't win a single game, let alone a match.
If all organizations thought like you did then no developing country would work to improve any of their sports teams, because they'll never be as successful as the big names anyway.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair.
Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc.
Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene.
Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place.
I don't even think foreign teams want to have team houses in the first place because of the chance of failure(RGN is one that comes to mind). That's why they want to sign Korean players because they have the better chance of improving and winning(this is more to Complexity then other teams).
On-topic, Koreans are dominate because they practice harder than foreigners. Simple as that, and it's not a problem.
if you look at some foreigner teamhouses (EG), you'll see what a joke it is.
players like incontrol can't even beat players who don't play full time, despite being in a gaming house for over half a year.
gathering a bunch of trash players won't make them good, and foreign managers understand that.
tbh, the only way a team house can succeed in america is if you import some good koreans over, and have them practice with a very SELECT GROUP of good foreigners in NA.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair.
Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc.
Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene.
Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place.
I don't even think foreign teams want to have team houses in the first place because of the chance of failure(RGN is one that comes to mind). That's why they want to sign Korean players because they have the better chance of improving and winning(this is more to Complexity then other teams).
On-topic, Koreans are dominate because they practice harder than foreigners. Simple as that, and it's not a problem.
Teamhouses are difficult to organise in the States due to the sheer geographical size of the place, likewise the size of Europe. I had a search for the thread but couldn't find it alas, but I found it interesting that one of the reasons put forward for the strength of the Korean scene is that it's centred around Seoul. Having a centralised 'hub' for Starcraft, where most of the pros end up based, just helps to foster a competitive scene there.
I agree completely that it's difficult to organize, of course, but that might just be another reason why they pick up Korean players instead of putting money into team houses.
The best solution for big international tournaments is to have regional qualifiers based on country of citizenship. For example, the NA region contains people who are citizens of the US, Canada, and the countries in South America. The number of slots assigned to each region depends on the level of involvement desired from that region by the tournament - for example, a league that wants to focus on NA players invites 50% of its players from NA, while reserving the rest for people outside NA.
I want to reiterate that the solution here is not to raise the skill level of NA and EU. That's not going to happen, and was the subject of several other threads made about a week ago besides.
There is a history and culture. Passion and a foundation of development for youth and a deeper understanding throughout the entire system as well as the positive outlook from the rest of society.
Nobody asks why are they good when they do well or try to get them banned? They're just good and you enjoy the beautiful game.
This sort of constant whining about a nation displaying such dominance is really pathetic.
Putting a restriction on the amount of korean players that can enter an event would only degrade the quality of matches that would be seen and have a negative effect on the tournament. The reason why people love seeing many koreans at events is because they bring higher quality of games and that is what people want to see. Not many people paid attention to the previous NASL because they didn't really have any koreans in it and nobody wanted to watch lower level play from foreigners.
On April 10 2012 08:49 epik640x wrote: Why is Brazil so good at soccer?
There is a history and culture. Passion and a foundation of development for youth and a deeper understanding throughout the entire system as well as the positive outlook from the rest of society.
Nobody asks why are they good when they do well or try to get them banned? They're just good and you enjoy the beautiful game.
This sort of constant whining about a nation displaying such dominance is really pathetic.
Well the same Brazilians don't dominate La Liga/Premier League/etc.at the same time, so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.
Personally its not the foreigner work ethic being the problem as much as it is a lack of collaboration. Several posts have mentioned or discussed how Koreans have a kind of unity in dominating, working together despite team differences to improve weaknesses. I believe it was actually a post Naniwa made regarding how Koreans even band together to assure a Korean will advance in a tournament over a foreigner.
Foreign sc players need to get over their massive egos on "superior skill" (*cough* players like IdrA) and need to be more willing to share constructive criticism and feedback with each other on how to improve, modifications in builds, insights into a particular matchup, etc. If we cannot come together and be open to the ideas of others, we will always come last.
I'm a Korean living in New Zealand, and would say I'm biased towards Korean players as a result.
I'm actually more inclined to agree with limiting Korean participation in foreign events. I don't see this as racist, because the intention behind such move is not because you don't like Koreans, it's because _everyone_ wants to watch the people they can most relate to and cheer them on. This, for most people's cases, will be their own countrymen.
I think the "I want to see the absolute best games" argument is a little insubstantial. You've got the top 8 to look forward to, and even with minimal Korean attendance, you'll get to watch it. My argument is that you should also be able to watch your favourite players/countrymen duke it out as well.
Personally, this is how I'd host a tournament in the US:
Regional qualifiers for Asia/Europe: 8x players each Open bracket tournament for Americas: 16~48 players _only_ for residents of US <-- this is the key change I'd make to tournaments like MLG arenas, who already do the regional qualifiers
This way, you get the superstars from Europe/Asia, but you also get HEAPS of exposure for homegrown talent in the open brackets, as well as watch them battle it out with the best of the world. Who cares, then, if you get top 8 Koreans + Stephano? You got to watch dozens of games of your favourite players, and possibly some upsets along the way.
Starcraft is not different than the nba. NBA is dominated badly by the USA. It is one of the most popular sports in the world and Lebron/jordan/kobe/wade dominate. Maybe instead of trying to make excuses for foreigners, why not push them to be better? Idra/huk/stephano/white-ra/dimaga they all play as much as any korean. Maru is 14 or 15 and is already better than 99 percent of the pro-foreign players. I'm pretty sure they're millions and millions of 14/15 year olds in europe and north america who play SC as much as maru.
Just maybe, it's natural talent? Some people just have it. Instead of making excuses, why not just embrace it? I support Huk as much as any canadian, but he's not as good as the top koreans. HE WON AT MLG orlando. Where was this thread when he won the MLG over a bunch of Code S koreans? Nani beat nestea ... twice in the same tourney.
I would watch Kobe vs lebron any day of the week over dirk vs pau gasol. Ask yourself this question, if you put up 100 000 dollars of your own money, u would want TT1 and incontrol to play in the round robin over Nestea and MKP? No one is gonna pay money to watch TT1 or incontrol play a close game. People will pay just to watch Nestea or MKP.
Take some business courses people. It's easy as cash flow/stability.
On April 10 2012 08:49 epik640x wrote: Why is Brazil so good at soccer?
There is a history and culture. Passion and a foundation of development for youth and a deeper understanding throughout the entire system as well as the positive outlook from the rest of society.
Nobody asks why are they good when they do well or try to get them banned? They're just good and you enjoy the beautiful game.
This sort of constant whining about a nation displaying such dominance is really pathetic.
They don't have to be banned because there is sufficient money in the game elsewhere that it doesn't retard the development of professional players in other regions of the world. Again football goes back a good few years to get to this point, but it also developed in a less globalised age where people just didn't travel as much and localised leagues developed to the massive size they are now. Brazil exports literally hundreds of players around the world, but due to football's mass popularity and the money flowing around in the game, this isn't to the detriment of the development of players in say, England. The infrastructure has developed to such a point where it doesn't take a hit with the importation of foreign players.
On April 10 2012 08:39 Swwww wrote: Maybe when the western pro gamers stop bragging about how little they practise and quit everything (including secondary education) to devote themselves to playing starcraft we will see a balanced scene. Until then, the Korean players will dominate. This is not a bad thing and anyone who says Korean domination of esports is in fact a bad thing is just a moron.
Because we all just have money flowing out of our pockets, none of us have to pay expenditures out of pocket while trying to practice 10 hours a day?
Because we all are forced to play SC2 as a full time job instead of just going to school and making a living like most other people... please. If it's not feasible, it's not feasible.
Limiting Koreans so that foreigners can fight for the scraps of the prize pool is ridiculous. You think that money is going to buy team houses and trips to other countries and food? No sports team relies solely on winnings... that's just not sustainable.
Okay, fine. So the foreigner scene dies.
I know that's okay with you, but that's not okay with a lot of people, and SC2 as a whole will suffer if that happens. There's a reason why GOM keeps inviting foreigners to play in Code A and S even if most of them won't win a single game, let alone a match.
If all organizations thought like you did then no developing country would work to improve any of their sports teams, because they'll never be as successful as the big names anyway.
There is so much more money in the sports you are talking about as well as widespread support from the general population that any comparison is faulty. Aside from that, the best players go to whatever country has the best competition. American sports are filled with foreigners who were good enough to get the opportunity to play in the best league. Doesn't stop anyone from enjoying them. SC2 is the same. Nationality, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, etc. should not apply, only skill and results.
On April 10 2012 07:06 yawnoC wrote: Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story.
Along those lines eSports needs to GROW! with more growth more people will be attracted to SC2 with more people attracted to SC2 the higher the chances of a Foreign Bonjwa being born INCREASES! its numbers people!
On April 10 2012 08:53 tranmillitary wrote: Starcraft is not different than the nba. NBA is dominated badly by the USA. It is one of the most popular sports in the world and Lebron/jordan/kobe/wade dominate. Maybe instead of trying to make excuses for foreigners, why not push them to be better? Idra/huk/stephano/white-ra/dimaga they all play as much as any korean. Maru is 14 or 15 and is already better than 99 percent of the pro-foreign players. I'm pretty sure they're millions and millions of 14/15 year olds in europe and north america who play SC as much as maru.
Just maybe, it's natural talent? Some people just have it. Instead of making excuses, why not just embrace it? I support Huk as much as any canadian, but he's not as good as the top koreans. HE WON AT MLG orlando. Where was this thread when he won the MLG over a bunch of Code S koreans? Nani beat nestea ... twice in the same tourney.
I would watch Kobe vs lebron any day of the week over dirk vs pau gasol. Ask yourself this question, if you put up 100 000 dollars of your own money, u would want TT1 and incontrol to play in the round robin over Nestea and MKP? No one is gonna pay money to watch TT1 or incontrol play a close game. People will pay just to watch Nestea or MKP.
Take some business courses people. It's easy as cash flow/stability.
The NBA is dominated by Americans, but then there are smaller leagues (Euro Basketball isn't small) that precludes participation from those playing in the NBA.
Smaller prize pools, smaller costs, smaller talent. How do you think these leagues operate?
Not saying it would be profitable in SC2 (hint: it wouldn't, at least on a standalone basis) but it would be the right thing to do.
Don't know what this has to do with cash flow as much as profitability though.
On April 10 2012 08:27 drag_ wrote: I think OP has a fair point. I've stopped really watching most starcraft because every tournament all the players I've heard of lose to Koreans, and I just don't have anybody to root for. Koreans may play better, but for me I don't know who to support from the vast number of players who are often inconsistent, offer little insight to their personalities in their interviews and have remarkably similar playstyles. I'm sure for hardcore fans who watch GSL everyday etc, this just sounds naive, but it's true for me. Supporting people by their nationality is probably quite arbitrary, but it happens in everything - I support England in football, when I admire the way Spain plays more, I support Arsenal because I live in London, but Barcelona or Man United are better teams. It's just hard to get behind random players for no real reason.
I feel exactly the same way. U put it so well into words.
MarineKingPrime has amazing skills and is very entertaining to watch... I now support him. What more is there to it? Its hard to get behind random players for no reason? No reason would be because of location, you support the player for no reason other than something totally irrelevant to Starcraft.. An actual reason would be because you like there play.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair.
Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc.
Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene.
Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place.
I don't even think foreign teams want to have team houses in the first place because of the chance of failure(RGN is one that comes to mind). That's why they want to sign Korean players because they have the better chance of improving and winning(this is more to Complexity then other teams).
On-topic, Koreans are dominate because they practice harder than foreigners. Simple as that, and it's not a problem.
if you look at some foreigner teamhouses (EG), you'll see what a joke it is.
players like incontrol can't even beat players who don't play full time, despite being in a gaming house for over half a year.
gathering a bunch of trash players won't make them good, and foreign managers understand that.
That is of also a factor. Players like Incontrol, Hayder (Haypro), Jinro may have been strong BroodWar players. A-, maybe even A or A+. But that means there were still a lot of Korean B-teamers/practise partners better than them. So you've got mediocre players who train hard but are just limited skillwise.
i think Huk is a great exmaple of what it takes to be able to compete with Koreans, talent (top 3 Control) and dedication.
On April 10 2012 07:05 Avril_Lavigne wrote: is there seriously a thread about this? Why not just ban Korea all together... No, the only thing that we can do is get better and dominate Korea, not restrict the amount of players they can send off to compete in our tournaments. this is just stupid...
It is becos of international tournaments that foreign teams are picking up Korean players anyway.
This is going to be off topic, but I need to get this off my chest. Ms Lavigne, I believe you are one of the most underrated artists of this era, with some of the most groundbreaking music in the pop-genre of many, many years. Thank you for contribution to the entertainment industry, and know, that you will never be forgotten.
On April 10 2012 08:39 Swwww wrote: Maybe when the western pro gamers stop bragging about how little they practise and quit everything (including secondary education) to devote themselves to playing starcraft we will see a balanced scene. Until then, the Korean players will dominate. This is not a bad thing and anyone who says Korean domination of esports is in fact a bad thing is just a moron.
Because we all just have money flowing out of our pockets, none of us have to pay expenditures out of pocket while trying to practice 10 hours a day?
Because we all are forced to play SC2 as a full time job instead of just going to school and making a living like most other people... please. If it's not feasible, it's not feasible.
Limiting Koreans so that foreigners can fight for the scraps of the prize pool is ridiculous. You think that money is going to buy team houses and trips to other countries and food? No sports team relies solely on winnings... that's just not sustainable.
Okay, fine. So the foreigner scene dies.
I know that's okay with you, but that's not okay with a lot of people, and SC2 as a whole will suffer if that happens. There's a reason why GOM keeps inviting foreigners to play in Code A and S even if most of them won't win a single game, let alone a match.
If all organizations thought like you did then no developing country would work to improve any of their sports teams, because they'll never be as successful as the big names anyway.
There is so much more money in the sports you are talking about as well as widespread support from the general population that any comparison is faulty. Aside from that, the best players go to whatever country has the best competition. American sports are filled with foreigners who were good enough to get the opportunity to play in the best league. Doesn't stop anyone from enjoying them. SC2 is the same. Nationality, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, etc. should not apply, only skill and results.
They DO apply though. I'm something of a cosmopolitan so I agree that they, in a just world shouldn't be a factor but even judging from this thread there have been a sizeable minority of people who claim to switch off their streams when the foreigners are out.
E-sports is an industry that thus far built upon sponsorship which I would imagine is dictated by business decisions being made regarding the visibility of the brands involved.
If viewing figures tail off due to Korean dominance, it could conceivably harm the industry as a whole. Yes I'm all for meritocracy, but not to the detriment of the death of a vibrant scene so it's definitely an issue that should be discussed without a retreat into the oft-repeated 'I just want to see the best games.'
On April 10 2012 08:39 Swwww wrote: Maybe when the western pro gamers stop bragging about how little they practise and quit everything (including secondary education) to devote themselves to playing starcraft we will see a balanced scene. Until then, the Korean players will dominate. This is not a bad thing and anyone who says Korean domination of esports is in fact a bad thing is just a moron.
Because we all just have money flowing out of our pockets, none of us have to pay expenditures out of pocket while trying to practice 10 hours a day?
Because we all are forced to play SC2 as a full time job instead of just going to school and making a living like most other people... please. If it's not feasible, it's not feasible.
Limiting Koreans so that foreigners can fight for the scraps of the prize pool is ridiculous. You think that money is going to buy team houses and trips to other countries and food? No sports team relies solely on winnings... that's just not sustainable.
Okay, fine. So the foreigner scene dies.
I know that's okay with you, but that's not okay with a lot of people, and SC2 as a whole will suffer if that happens. There's a reason why GOM keeps inviting foreigners to play in Code A and S even if most of them won't win a single game, let alone a match.
If all organizations thought like you did then no developing country would work to improve any of their sports teams, because they'll never be as successful as the big names anyway.
There is so much more money in the sports you are talking about as well as widespread support from the general population that any comparison is faulty. Aside from that, the best players go to whatever country has the best competition. American sports are filled with foreigners who were good enough to get the opportunity to play in the best league. Doesn't stop anyone from enjoying them. SC2 is the same. Nationality, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, etc. should not apply, only skill and results.
I agree they should not apply, but they do. There's a reason why people have nationalistic pride. Trying to draw in new fans while only offering Korean players isn't exactly the right way to do it. Americans will be more inclined to follow Idra than Nestea, if they're new to the game.
Honestly, the OP is not really wrong here in that it is probably in the best interest of the SC2 E-sports scene to include some more stringent regional qualifiers similar to what UEFA does for the champions league. One of the biggest draws of these international competitions, is that they are in fact, international.
I don't see what is wrong with being a fan of players whom are from our country and whom we can communicate better with over most of the Korean players. This sentiment is relevant in every professional sport in the world. Sure, I love seeing the best games possible, I think we all do, but first and foremost, we like to see our favorite players compete. For example, sure I can admire and enjoy FC Barcelona's play but if I had to choose between watching them or my hometown club, Feyenoord, I would choose Feyenoord 100% of the time.
I was less interested in IPL4 because many of my favorite European players didn't compete in anything except the first few rounds of the open bracket. Should they be practicing harder and more efficiently? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that i'd still rather watch them play then two mechanically excellent code A Koreans whom I know little about. If skill was the dominating factor in who we choose to be fans of then we wouldn't be fans at all. I suspect IGNProleague knows this however and do just what i've suggested in this post, limit qualifiers to region so that a more diverse group of players will compete at IPL5, in turn, drawing in a larger number of viewers. It's good for E-sports.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair.
Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc.
Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene.
Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place.
I don't even think foreign teams want to have team houses in the first place because of the chance of failure(RGN is one that comes to mind). That's why they want to sign Korean players because they have the better chance of improving and winning(this is more to Complexity then other teams).
On-topic, Koreans are dominate because they practice harder than foreigners. Simple as that, and it's not a problem.
if you look at some foreigner teamhouses (EG), you'll see what a joke it is.
players like incontrol can't even beat players who don't play full time, despite being in a gaming house for over half a year.
gathering a bunch of trash players won't make them good, and foreign managers understand that.
That is of also a factor. Players like Incontrol, Hayder (Haypro), Jinro may have been strong BroodWar players. A-, maybe even A or A+. But that means there were still a lot of Korean B-teamers/practise partners better than them. So you've got mediocre players who train hard but are just limited skillwise.
i think Huk is a great exmaple of what it takes to be able to compete with Koreans, talent (top 3 Control) and dedication.
Unless you think Koreans are just naturally genetically better at the game, there are a whole crapload of potential foreigners out there who could be as good if not better. The infrastructure just isn't in place for them to succeed.
On April 10 2012 09:00 NinjaTrout wrote: Has anyone ever wondered why the GSL has seeds for foreigner players? Think about it.
They're helpful to GOM to attract foreign viewers, but do little to boost the foreign scene. Anyone getting these seeds are already at the top of the foreigner scene and don't need help to be able to maintain a career (at least for awhile) in SC2.
On April 10 2012 08:27 svi wrote: why would anyone care about foreigners doing well in a tournament with minimal koreans?
should we boot koreans out of mlg so incontrol can get top 4 again? everyone would realize that the competition is a joke, and winning the tournament still makes you bad.
at least with koreans, people like scarlett are being recognized even if they don't get top 32.
I think you need to re-read my post, I said excluding the Koreans from MLG is NOT the solution
Also even if scarlet's name is now recognized, she still went home with 0 dollars. At the end of the day how long can someone justify not making any money while spending just as much time on this as they would working a full time job
LOL Scarlett wasn't even a pro and she outperformed most of the foreign "pros". If foreign teams don't have money to support their players, or just spend it on Korean players instead of supporting their foreign players, as you are suggesting, that is an entirely different problem that the OP plan does nothing to help.
I haven't said anything about foreign teams supporting Koreans over their players I don't know why you keep mentioning that.
Then what was your point? How many sc2 pros have a part time job on the side?
On April 10 2012 08:27 svi wrote: why would anyone care about foreigners doing well in a tournament with minimal koreans?
should we boot koreans out of mlg so incontrol can get top 4 again? everyone would realize that the competition is a joke, and winning the tournament still makes you bad.
at least with koreans, people like scarlett are being recognized even if they don't get top 32.
I think you need to re-read my post, I said excluding the Koreans from MLG is NOT the solution
Also even if scarlet's name is now recognized, she still went home with 0 dollars. At the end of the day how long can someone justify not making any money while spending just as much time on this as they would working a full time job
LOL Scarlett wasn't even a pro and she outperformed most of the foreign "pros". If foreign teams don't have money to support their players, or just spend it on Korean players instead of supporting their foreign players, as you are suggesting, that is an entirely different problem that the OP plan does nothing to help.
I haven't said anything about foreign teams supporting Koreans over their players I don't know why you keep mentioning that.
Then what was your point? How many sc2 pros have a part time job on the side?
Quite a lot if you count coaching/casting/streaming as a separate activity from actually playing the game fulltime with high-quality practice partners a la Korean prohouses.
First issue is the effort, how much foreigners put in versus koreans. Second issue is how effective the training is for koreans vs. foreigners, such as Korea uses a one size fits all while foreigners tend to have different systems that work for them ala stephano. Third is koreans working together collectively to solve problems. According to naniwa, koreans will sometimes work together to figure out the ins and outs of a build and then practice it to all hell, he also claims that koreans have 10ish practice partners for each race and they share replays. to my knowledge most foreigner teams keep to themselves and have at most 3 of each race which makes keeping to yourself or your friends strictly... kinda tough.
I think it's more of a practice style thing though. Stephano has shown repeatedly that he can compete with the top korean players, he doesn't live in korea, he practices how he likes to, and to my knowledge he doesn't have korean training partners..
On April 10 2012 08:39 Swwww wrote: Maybe when the western pro gamers stop bragging about how little they practise and quit everything (including secondary education) to devote themselves to playing starcraft we will see a balanced scene. Until then, the Korean players will dominate. This is not a bad thing and anyone who says Korean domination of esports is in fact a bad thing is just a moron.
Because we all just have money flowing out of our pockets, none of us have to pay expenditures out of pocket while trying to practice 10 hours a day?
Because we all are forced to play SC2 as a full time job instead of just going to school and making a living like most other people... please. If it's not feasible, it's not feasible.
Limiting Koreans so that foreigners can fight for the scraps of the prize pool is ridiculous. You think that money is going to buy team houses and trips to other countries and food? No sports team relies solely on winnings... that's just not sustainable.
Okay, fine. So the foreigner scene dies.
I know that's okay with you
It sort of is for me. One of the big reasons people were so hyped for SC2 over BW (despite the latter being IMVHO a better game) was that we would be free of the Korean stranglehold, the foreigners could compete etc etc. I'm quite fine with that illusion being put to rest. Not that it will make people play BW again, and not that I ever stopped, but I don't mind seeing reality hit. I just don't like "newer==better". I still play UT99 and prefer it to CoD for instance
Theres not much to do except to put just as much time into the game like the Koreans do. They practice ALOT and understand the mechanics alot better then foreigners so it is to be expected that they are dominated. Foreigners have gotten better but no where near the level of the Koreans. Except for a select few foreigners.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair.
Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc.
Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene.
Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place.
I don't even think foreign teams want to have team houses in the first place because of the chance of failure(RGN is one that comes to mind). That's why they want to sign Korean players because they have the better chance of improving and winning(this is more to Complexity then other teams).
On-topic, Koreans are dominate because they practice harder than foreigners. Simple as that, and it's not a problem.
Teamhouses are difficult to organise in the States due to the sheer geographical size of the place, likewise the size of Europe. I had a search for the thread but couldn't find it alas, but I found it interesting that one of the reasons put forward for the strength of the Korean scene is that it's centred around Seoul. Having a centralised 'hub' for Starcraft, where most of the pros end up based, just helps to foster a competitive scene there.
Chinese SC2 teams live in team houses as a counterpoint. It's definitely possible if they wanted it for Western team, but most Western pros are used to playing on their own schedule / time. Few have the commitment of a Huk or Naniwa. Even players as good as Thorzain and Stephano are basically part-time (they still put school first as far as I know - Stephano still doesn't commit to playing SC2 longer than a year even). No disrespect to them, we all went crazy about Polt winning SuperTournament while giong to University after all, so Thorzain deserves just as much respect for winning TSL 3 while going to Uni.
The team house thing could also be related to how old players in the Western scene are compared to Korea. You just get to a certain age where you don't want to live around a bunch of other people.
By reference: SC, JJakji, MKP, Leenock, Maru, Creator, Taeja, Parting are all under 20. Even MC and DRG are only 20...
On April 10 2012 08:59 Pantagruel wrote: Honestly, the OP is not really wrong here in that it is probably in the best interest of the SC2 E-sports scene to include some more stringent regional qualifiers similar to what UEFA does for the champions league. One of the biggest draws of these international competitions, is that they are in fact, international.
I don't see what is wrong with being a fan of players whom are from our country and whom we can communicate better with over most of the Korean players. This sentiment is relevant in every professional sport in the world. Sure, I love seeing the best games possible, I think we all do, but first and foremost, we like to see our favorite players compete. For example, sure I can admire and enjoy FC Barcelona's play but if I had to choose between watching them or my hometown club, Feyenoord, I would choose Feyenoord 100% of the time.
I was less interested in IPL4 because many of my favorite European players didn't compete in anything except the first few rounds of the open bracket. Should they be practicing harder and more efficiently? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that i'd still rather watch them play then two mechanically excellent code A Koreans whom I know little about. If skill was the dominating factor in who we choose to be fans of then we wouldn't be fans at all. I suspect IGNProleague knows this however and do just what i've suggested in this post, limit qualifiers to region so that a more diverse group of players will compete at IPL5, in turn, drawing in a larger number of viewers. It's good for E-sports.
As a person who's favorite players are ALL Korean(minus Stephano), I still agree 100% with this statement. I think people should think about the OP a bit more before they start jumping in and raging about how dumb they think the idea is. Personally I think MLG does one of the best jobs with their regional qualifiers but I'm open to the possibility that the process could be even more stringent.
There is just a huge cultural difference between the West and Korea, especially when it come to Esports and Starcraft.
For instance, in Korea, if you're a pro gamer, you're a celebrity. Aspiring to becoming a top pro gamer is like trying to become a star in the NBA, an actor, entertainer, etc. An example is Boxer, pretty much everyone in Korea knows who he is, hes dating an actress, and pretty much living the sweet life because of his success.
There are several other factors on why Starcraft is so popular over there. Its just unfortunate that Esports in general is not that popular to the average person in the West since there's a greater stigma on gaming and there are just too many other forms of entertainment that appeal more to the public.
On April 10 2012 09:08 Tenmagnet wrote: There is just a huge cultural difference between the West and Korea, especially when it come to Esports and Starcraft.
For instance, in Korea, if you're a pro gamer, you're a celebrity. Aspiring to becoming a pro gamer is like trying to become a star in the NBA, an actor, entertainer, etc. An example is Boxer, pretty much everyone in Korea knows who he is, hes dating an actress, and pretty much living the sweet life because of his success.
There are several other factors on why Starcraft is so popular over there. Its just unfortunate that Esports in general is not that popular to the average person in the West since there's a greater stigma on gaming and there are just too many other forms of entertainment that appeal more to the public.
Success should be rewarded, not punished. I consider myself patriotic, and find myself rooting for Americans (Idra and Sheth) whenever they play for it. I do not however want the competition of tournaments to fall, and that is exactly what would happen if we restrict Koreans from playing. Foreigners should earn their victories, and when they do it will be all the better. Meanwhile I will enjoy watching MKP, Parting, DRG, Alive, Nestea, and Squirtle tear up everything.
On April 10 2012 08:27 svi wrote: why would anyone care about foreigners doing well in a tournament with minimal koreans?
should we boot koreans out of mlg so incontrol can get top 4 again? everyone would realize that the competition is a joke, and winning the tournament still makes you bad.
at least with koreans, people like scarlett are being recognized even if they don't get top 32.
I think you need to re-read my post, I said excluding the Koreans from MLG is NOT the solution
Also even if scarlet's name is now recognized, she still went home with 0 dollars. At the end of the day how long can someone justify not making any money while spending just as much time on this as they would working a full time job
LOL Scarlett wasn't even a pro and she outperformed most of the foreign "pros". If foreign teams don't have money to support their players, or just spend it on Korean players instead of supporting their foreign players, as you are suggesting, that is an entirely different problem that the OP plan does nothing to help.
I haven't said anything about foreign teams supporting Koreans over their players I don't know why you keep mentioning that.
Then what was your point? How many sc2 pros have a part time job on the side?
Quite a lot if you count coaching/casting/streaming as a separate activity from actually playing the game fulltime with high-quality practice partners a la Korean prohouses.
Zenex players have to pay to live in their team house. If teams don't have the money to support their players, thats on them and maybe they shouldn't be a team or need to reassess their spending/allocation of money.
Why the fuck do people hate on Koreans winning everything? Because they're better, we should not let them play? Yes, that's fair. That's good for e-sports. People want the best players, since they make the best games.
The foreigners have all the chances the Koreans do...they just do nothing with it. I hate the be that guy, but it seems a vast majority of the Europeans are the ones who are unhappy about Korean dominance.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market.
Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard.
Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair.
Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc.
Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene.
Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place.
I don't even think foreign teams want to have team houses in the first place because of the chance of failure(RGN is one that comes to mind). That's why they want to sign Korean players because they have the better chance of improving and winning(this is more to Complexity then other teams).
On-topic, Koreans are dominate because they practice harder than foreigners. Simple as that, and it's not a problem.
if you look at some foreigner teamhouses (EG), you'll see what a joke it is.
players like incontrol can't even beat players who don't play full time, despite being in a gaming house for over half a year.
gathering a bunch of trash players won't make them good, and foreign managers understand that.
That is of also a factor. Players like Incontrol, Hayder (Haypro), Jinro may have been strong BroodWar players. A-, maybe even A or A+. But that means there were still a lot of Korean B-teamers/practise partners better than them. So you've got mediocre players who train hard but are just limited skillwise.
i think Huk is a great exmaple of what it takes to be able to compete with Koreans, talent (top 3 Control) and dedication.
Unless you think Koreans are just naturally genetically better at the game, there are a whole crapload of potential foreigners out there who could be as good if not better. The infrastructure just isn't in place for them to succeed.
I agree 100%, that's exactly what I posted before.
Still, you can't deny the fact that a lot of foreigner are just mediocre and it might be better to kick people like Hayder (no offense, I admire his dedication, but he is 28 now and.. yeah well. You get my point) or Incontrol and offer the spots to people who are more talented €: or more dedicated
By the way, I highly appreciate the opportunity to meet as many top level professionals as possible of a sport I love close to home. IPL4 allowed me to do that.
I think what people are really complaining about is that the Korean players need to have more personality and better distinguish themselves in the community.
Complaining about a lack of "home team" winners is a stupid complaint. Most sports have a few champion teams and plenty of crap teams. The most popular players in any sport are the most skilled players or those on the best teams.
To say people won't like StarCraft 2 because these faceless, nameless Koreans keep winning is dismissive and actually kind of racist. But I think the solution is to put these Koreans more to the forefront and make them better known to the community. I think foreigners are much better about doing interviews and putting themselves out there.
On April 10 2012 09:08 Tenmagnet wrote: There is just a huge cultural difference between the West and Korea, especially when it come to Esports and Starcraft.
For instance, in Korea, if you're a pro gamer, you're a celebrity. Aspiring to becoming a pro gamer is like trying to become a star in the NBA, an actor, entertainer, etc. An example is Boxer, pretty much everyone in Korea knows who he is, hes dating an actress, and pretty much living the sweet life because of his success.
There are several other factors on why Starcraft is so popular over there. Its just unfortunate that Esports in general is not that popular to the average person in the West since there's a greater stigma on gaming and there are just too many other forms of entertainment that appeal more to the public.
This is wrong.
I taught English in Korea and when I ask kids what they want to be when they grow up, guess what they say? They wanna be the new Flash and Jaedong, so how am I wrong?
This conversation is really interesting to me with the number of people saying that the non-Korean players will likely die out in a few years. I see it as just the opposite.
Esports and SC in generally have been accepted sports and professions in Korea for a long time. The Korean culture supports the players and holds them in high esteem. There's tons of support. Outside of Korea, that's largely not been the case. Esports to a large degree is still in its infancy here in the United States and I suspect the same is true elsewhere as well. As our respective countries begin to involve themselves more and more into Esports, our cultures should take more of the form of Korea (in terms of more of the populace thinking of SC2 pro players as respectible and people to be admired). More and more people will watch. More and more people will begin to accept Esports. As that happens, I feel we'll have more players striving to be the best and doing whatever they can to achieve that.
All of that combined with the amount of positive reinforcement I foresee, circa Korea, should actually lead to the advancement of non-Korean SC2 pros, not the extinction thereof.
So let me get this correctly, people like FairForever like watching foreigners more than Koreans, so they generalize this across to those of us (seems like the MAJORITY) who just watch for the skill of the game involved and say ESPORTS WILL DIE GUIZZZZZ! when we say foreigners should just get better because we want to watch the best games possible. This leads to more whining when the best solution is honestly just get better and practice more? Right...
Foreigners suck guys. Read the old Rekrul threads. They're still true. They just need to get better. Huk, Stephano, Naniwa, etc. have shown they can compete with the best. Just practice more.
On April 10 2012 09:09 Kraznaya wrote: If you have the talent, you'll shine through. Just look at Scarlett.
Made 0 dollars. Don't see your point.
Will be picked up by top level pro team.
And will still be making close to nil dollars.
And will be sitting on her ass playing SC2 all day. If people have the illusion of Korean pros living like kings with all their tournament earnings, get real. If you want to go pro at a video game you are accepting that it's not a particularly lucrative profession. If money is what you care about, get a fucking education and a job and play SC2 on your free time. I really really don't see where you are coming from.
If the scene never reaches the heights people want it to because of Korean dominance I won't care. I'll be here with the rest of the hardcore fans watching the best games and cheering on my favorite players regardless of which country they come from, just like Brood War.
Foreigners need to stop being lazy and get better if they want to win tournaments. ( example: Incontrol took a 2 month break during the winter holidays and apparently didn't play any games, you call yourself a professional? )
If not that's fine too, I'll just watch the Korean players instead.
Why do mediocre foreigners go to Korea? They're not the best in EU/NA They cant speak a single word of korean let alone discuss with korean pros They will just hang out with foreigners all day in the GOM house and play the Korean ladder
Do they think its the air or water that makes them so good? You can play from home with a slight delay on the korean server instead of wasting a few grand on having your team fly you over there
This is not meant as flame, but this proposition is utterly retarded. Why on earth would foreigners get better just because there are restrictions on how many koreans are allowed? And have it occured to you that perhaps many people don't care what nationality the players are - the important thing is that the best are competing??
Not everyones cares about players from their country. Do you know who I cheer for? The Korean players. The only foreign players I pay any attention to are Grubby and Demuslim. Usually when non-Koreans are playing I'm not watching unless they're one of those two exceptions or they're playing a Korean player that I really like. *shrug*
i think what needs to be done is to work on.. hmm how would i put this best? Infastructure i guess? i.e make it easier for all the foreigners to get all their practice and not have to worry about other things i.e "how am i going to pay rent?" or "how am i going to afford food this next week?" we are starting to get some team houses that help sort that out.
The only other thing i can think of is to get a more competitive scene.. that means from bottom up players have to play more.. but how are you going to get that? that would more be blizzard's thing to somehow get more people to play more seriously and not shy away , get bored and/or get frustrated with the game and stop playing it.
Perhaps if the Korean pros didn't do everything in their power to conspire against foreigners, we'd have games where it isn't obvious that the Korean knew exactly what the foreigner was doing. When was the last GSL match where it wasn't obvious Naniwa's opponent knew what build he was gonna use?
On April 10 2012 09:23 Mohdoo wrote: Perhaps if the Korean pros didn't do everything in their power to conspire against foreigners, we'd have games where it isn't obvious that the Korean knew exactly what the foreigner was doing. When was the last GSL match where it wasn't obvious Naniwa's opponent knew what build he was gonna use?
oh my god he studied his opponent and asked other players about his style how UNFAIR
I think what foreigner players need is hardwork. I'm not saying ALL foreigners are just slacking around. Look at Stephano for e.g. He probably plays a lot and thinks a lot about the game and puts his effort to it.
Korean players don't have the "gene" or "natural skills" for starcraft. It's just that they play a lot and dedicate their entier career to it. For e.g. a typical starcraft pro in korea would play 12-14 hours per day + group discussion within the groups + in house competition. In such condition, it is very hard to fall behind.
My point is, we shouldn't blame Koreans for dominating the tournies but instead we should criticize foreign players. Hence, we do not and should not make any restrictions on such issue.
On April 10 2012 09:23 Mohdoo wrote: Perhaps if the Korean pros didn't do everything in their power to conspire against foreigners, we'd have games where it isn't obvious that the Korean knew exactly what the foreigner was doing. When was the last GSL match where it wasn't obvious Naniwa's opponent knew what build he was gonna use?
This is wishful thinking on Naniwa's part. His xenophobia and paranoia is destroying him.
Ask yourself this question, if you put up 100 000 dollars of your own money, u would want TT1 and incontrol to play in the round robin over Nestea and MKP? No one is gonna pay money to watch TT1 or incontrol play a close game. People will pay just to watch Nestea or MKP.
Take some business courses people. It's easy as cash flow/stability.
how about people wanting to see idra versus cruncher in an american final for the american crown compared to some random koreans that are only better players.
take some business courses right ?
and the national scene, especially in america, don't really has a chance to build and grow itself if the only place to win some money and pride are the tournament slaughterfests we have right now.
On April 10 2012 08:49 epik640x wrote: Why is Brazil so good at soccer?
There is a history and culture. Passion and a foundation of development for youth and a deeper understanding throughout the entire system as well as the positive outlook from the rest of society.
Nobody asks why are they good when they do well or try to get them banned? They're just good and you enjoy the beautiful game.
This sort of constant whining about a nation displaying such dominance is really pathetic.
your argument is pathetic. brazil only comes every 4 years to compete for the title and to show their skills. in starcraft brazil is coming every 2 weeks to demolish everybody.
My final take on this issue. Watching nestea talking to MC while being down 2-0 to squirtle... and coming up with 2 great strategies to tie up the series... this is great. 3 hatch slow lings? These are the things that Idra/stephano or any foreigner will never do. Watching stephano and idra play is so bland. I'm not bashing them but this is how every game idra/stephano goes:
3 hatch macro up and try to drone up to 80, if someone pushes around 9 mins, make roaches and try to hold off, lings/banes/roaches til BL's, than BL's, infestors, queens. Every single game. People seriously want to see that every game?
We need the best stars of the world to showcase their skills. Just like MMA vs stephano... 5 prong attacks with 4 manner sensor towers in the same area. manner mules to block off stephano's troops that are running home. Why watch jump shooting players when you can see dunking??
On April 10 2012 07:28 jinorazi wrote: korea actually does this with pro basketball (limited number of foreign players in the team), not sure about other sports.
i'm against it, i'm not sure why any of foreign players would agree to it either.
if the tournament is about being best of the best, why does race matter? world championship is a different matter (fair diversity like worldcup/olympics). not only that, mlg/ipl has had far greater % of foreign players attending...its just that koreans end up on top.
people were rooting for stephano like no other. foreigners need to improve their skill so we get more treats like this, organizers shouldn't have to manipulate regulations to achieve this
it sounds like you're sayingn lets cater to the foreigners so they have a chance if there are fewer koreans. this is retarded.
i may be biased though...i'm personally enjoying this korean domination ^_^
On competition that comes to mind is the olympic games where there are restriction on how many players each country can have in diffrent events. I mean Canada could probably qualify 3 hockey teams if the where allowed to.
I have no problems with koreans winning every tournament. The best players should win. But i don't think turning international events in to Korean nationals is a good idea. Send the Korean top players to international events and kick some ass. I love to have them at international events. But just because 90 of the 100 best players in the world are Korean doesn't mean that all international competitions should have that composition of nationalities.
like i said, there were more foreign participants in mlg/ipl but koreans came up top.
you're suggesting artificially manipulating the regulations to allow fewer koreans, hence lower chance of them dominating all the top spots. the problem is (as example), 10 koreans out of 100 players are placing top 8, you want to fix this...how? if you want to regulate koreans to just 5 players so if they do go on top, they can dominate only 5 spots, what will you do with 80%(made up) american participants?
On April 10 2012 09:23 Mohdoo wrote: Perhaps if the Korean pros didn't do everything in their power to conspire against foreigners, we'd have games where it isn't obvious that the Korean knew exactly what the foreigner was doing. When was the last GSL match where it wasn't obvious Naniwa's opponent knew what build he was gonna use?
Everyone should be there because of their skill not because they are best in their country. In some countries SCII is not popular at all and the best player there is mile behind the rest.
Still, however, it's vital to have a good diversity of players in international tournaments, at the end of the day it's an international tournament.
Regarding how to get more foreigners in tournaments, it's not about working "harder", those players are already working very hard, I don't think the Koreans are working harder and the rest of the world is lazier or something. ESports in general is way more popular in Korea, especially starcraft. We need to promote e-sports and sc2 more in the rest of the world and make them more popular. When we achieve that, we'll see more "foreigners" in tournaments.
The solution isn't to ban or limit good players from events, it's to build an infrastructure. You can't build an infrastructure by banning players, I don't know why people even think this solves the problem.
A lot of it lies with foreign players unwillingness to sacrifice. It's not like Koreans are rich bastards paying for fancy mansions and steaks every night for dinner. They manage because they're willing to sacrifice a lot. Few of them are going to school, most of them share rooms with about 4 other people and they do nothing else but play. They pool together whatever resources they have, pitch their plight to sponsors and use that money to buy ramen and small apartments.
But there's also the geographical factor. There needs to be a centralized location in the US/EU that runs tournaments like the GSL. It has to be somewhere with cheap living and an Arena nearby so players all have a place to set up camp. With a place like that, and people willing to move there, live off ramen in small apartments while not having to pay a fuckton on plane tickets to get to the event, just maybe people will have the will to get better.
Neither of these two areas have anything to do with Koreans coming over and winning international tournaments. Players aren't going to suddenly start pooling together resources, living together and practicing if they can just get by placing high in tournaments that restrict the amount of really good players. Instead you're asking for low level tournaments with bad play because players are content with being incompetent.
after every tournament, this kind of thread pops up. I think there should be just one thread for ppl to whine about Koreans. BAN all the other threads!!
I feel like people from eu and us have more personality except mc and mkp thats maybe because we see them more or something, but the koreans play all day in a house you have to be a little mad for that. Like mma hes maybe be sexy but hes boring as hell to.
On April 10 2012 09:23 Mohdoo wrote: Perhaps if the Korean pros didn't do everything in their power to conspire against foreigners, we'd have games where it isn't obvious that the Korean knew exactly what the foreigner was doing. When was the last GSL match where it wasn't obvious Naniwa's opponent knew what build he was gonna use?
Foreign players should do that too then. Why not?
Oh look. Koreans have the same sense of nationalistic pride that those who want to see them limited have. How ironic.
On April 10 2012 09:23 Mohdoo wrote: Perhaps if the Korean pros didn't do everything in their power to conspire against foreigners, we'd have games where it isn't obvious that the Korean knew exactly what the foreigner was doing. When was the last GSL match where it wasn't obvious Naniwa's opponent knew what build he was gonna use?
So among being good Koreans also commit the high felony crime of WORKING TOGETHER? Maybe if foreigners did that instead of mindlessly ladder grind they might actually get somewhere in tournaments.
I think it's funny that people think limiting tournaments to only 5 Koreans would actually make foreigners win. The fact is, top Koreans are likely to win any event, no matter how many other Koreans they do or do not have to fight through.
Sending "only" MarineKing, MMA, and DRG to foreign events will still have those players in the top 3 spots 95% of the time, and one of them will be in the top 3 spots 100% of the time.
On April 10 2012 09:28 tranmillitary wrote: My final take on this issue. Watching nestea talking to MC while being down 2-0 to squirtle... and coming up with 2 great strategies to tie up the series... this is great. 3 hatch slow lings? These are the things that Idra/stephano or any foreigner will never do. Watching stephano and idra play is so bland. I'm not bashing them but this is how every game idra/stephano goes:
3 hatch macro up and try to drone up to 80, if someone pushes around 9 mins, make roaches and try to hold off, lings/banes/roaches til BL's, than BL's, infestors, queens. Every single game. People seriously want to see that every game?
We need the best stars of the world to showcase their skills. Just like MMA vs stephano... 5 prong attacks with 4 manner sensor towers in the same area. manner mules to block off stephano's troops that are running home. Why watch jump shooting players when you can see dunking??
Well, if what you want is all-ins, nestea is your man!
On April 10 2012 09:36 Zzoram wrote: I think it's funny that people think limiting tournaments to only 5 Koreans would actually make foreigners win. The fact is, top Koreans are likely to win any event, no matter how many other Koreans they do or do not have to fight through.
Sending "only" MarineKing, MMA, and DRG to foreign events will still have those players in the top 3 spots 95% of the time, and one of them will be in the top 3 spots 100% of the time.
I guess MLG should just pay everyone who signs up. That will help E-sports grow
On April 10 2012 09:36 Zzoram wrote: I think it's funny that people think limiting tournaments to only 5 Koreans would actually make foreigners win. The fact is, top Koreans are likely to win any event, no matter how many other Koreans they do or do not have to fight through.
Sending "only" MarineKing, MMA, and DRG to foreign events will still have those players in the top 3 spots 95% of the time, and one of them will be in the top 3 spots 100% of the time.
I guess MLG should just pay everyone who signs up to compete. That will help E-sports grow
On April 10 2012 09:15 ghrur wrote: So let me get this correctly, people like FairForever like watching foreigners more than Koreans, so they generalize this across to those of us (seems like the MAJORITY) who just watch for the skill of the game involved and say ESPORTS WILL DIE GUIZZZZZ! when we say foreigners should just get better because we want to watch the best games possible. This leads to more whining when the best solution is honestly just get better and practice more? Right...
Foreigners suck guys. Read the old Rekrul threads. They're still true. They just need to get better. Huk, Stephano, Naniwa, etc. have shown they can compete with the best. Just practice more.
I actually prefer watching Koreans. But I'm also a realist. None of my friends who play SC2 know who Creator, Squirtle, Jjakji are (of course they can name MKP, Boxer, Nestea). And that's not healthy if most casuals don't care.
These tournaments aren't nations vs nations tournaments, in the model of the World Cyber Games. These are tournaments that are meant to bring together the best Starcraft 2 talent.
I don't understand your bias against the Koreans; why are you more interested in watching foreigners play? During a game its not like they are talking. So there must be some outside reason to like foreigners more, is it the post-game interviews? I don't get it. Is it some nationalistic attitude? You want to cheer for people from your specific country?
On April 10 2012 09:15 ghrur wrote: So let me get this correctly, people like FairForever like watching foreigners more than Koreans, so they generalize this across to those of us (seems like the MAJORITY) who just watch for the skill of the game involved and say ESPORTS WILL DIE GUIZZZZZ! when we say foreigners should just get better because we want to watch the best games possible. This leads to more whining when the best solution is honestly just get better and practice more? Right...
Foreigners suck guys. Read the old Rekrul threads. They're still true. They just need to get better. Huk, Stephano, Naniwa, etc. have shown they can compete with the best. Just practice more.
I actually prefer watching Koreans. But I'm also a realist. None of my friends who play SC2 know who Creator, Squirtle, Jjakji are (of course they can name MKP, Boxer, Nestea). And that's not healthy if most casuals don't care.
What players do they know of? And why do they know of them instead of the top Koreans? Whenever I show anyone SC2 its always a big tournament (GSL, MLG, IPL, etc.), and the finalists of these tournaments are mostly Koreans. So actually my casual friends are more likely to know who MKP/Nestea are than most foreigners.
I'm just curious how the casual fan gets to know certain players and not others. The top tournaments are full of Koreans, so these casual fans must be watching smaller tournaments (Playhems?), or watching streams or something?
On April 10 2012 09:15 ghrur wrote: So let me get this correctly, people like FairForever like watching foreigners more than Koreans, so they generalize this across to those of us (seems like the MAJORITY) who just watch for the skill of the game involved and say ESPORTS WILL DIE GUIZZZZZ! when we say foreigners should just get better because we want to watch the best games possible. This leads to more whining when the best solution is honestly just get better and practice more? Right...
Foreigners suck guys. Read the old Rekrul threads. They're still true. They just need to get better. Huk, Stephano, Naniwa, etc. have shown they can compete with the best. Just practice more.
I actually prefer watching Koreans. But I'm also a realist. None of my friends who play SC2 know who Creator, Squirtle, Jjakji are (of course they can name MKP, Boxer, Nestea). And that's not healthy if most casuals don't care.
What do they even watch then? My casual friend doesn`t know foreigner pros just the same.
On April 10 2012 09:28 tranmillitary wrote: My final take on this issue. Watching nestea talking to MC while being down 2-0 to squirtle... and coming up with 2 great strategies to tie up the series... this is great. 3 hatch slow lings? These are the things that Idra/stephano or any foreigner will never do. Watching stephano and idra play is so bland. I'm not bashing them but this is how every game idra/stephano goes:
3 hatch macro up and try to drone up to 80, if someone pushes around 9 mins, make roaches and try to hold off, lings/banes/roaches til BL's, than BL's, infestors, queens. Every single game. People seriously want to see that every game?
We need the best stars of the world to showcase their skills. Just like MMA vs stephano... 5 prong attacks with 4 manner sensor towers in the same area. manner mules to block off stephano's troops that are running home. Why watch jump shooting players when you can see dunking??
Well, if what you want is all-ins, nestea is your man!
Yeah because all Nestea can do is All-ins. Shows how much you know about SC2 and e-sports in general. Too many kids on this forum.
by the way, as a korean i love watching this korean domination. foreigners root for their team, i root for mine, one side is doing better than the other, isnt this how sports work? the fans should cheer on the foreigners and help them improve. not manipulate the system to make it seem foreigners are doing good.
on a fun note, break dance crew "Project Seoul/Korea" was banned from competitions after they swept one competition after another. it was a bboy crew made up of top korean break dancers. (maybe rumor but i've heard otherwise)
Open brackets ensure the best players, not the most famous players, get into the final stages of tournaments. Puma won NASL S1 out of nowhere. Naniwa won MLG out of nowhere. Leenock won Providence out of nowhere.
Inviting just means has-been "famous" foreign players like Idra waste precious spots in every foreign event when more promising players could be EARNING their way into tournaments. North America can't seem to discover new talent because all the tournaments here are using invites instead of qualification. GSL has the best talent and is the toughest competition in the world because other than foreigner seeds, it's all based on qualifying. The Code A qualifiying process is grueling but it ensures that anyone who survives will be worthy of the tournament.
We need a tournament structure that fills the vast majority, if not ALL tournament slots with qualified players from an open bracket, we need those brackets to be in every region, and we need the winners to get a paid flight+hotel so that undiscovered talent without a team can make a splash.
Lol are people seriously talking about limiting korean invites? Hey guys, why not ban them together?
Oh that's right, that would make the competition a completely invalid joke. Cmon now. E-Sports are a true meritocracy. Skill will get you to the top. Nothing else matters. In games like basketball, if you were born short, you are screwed. So they are a meritocracy, but genetics do play a part. Why would you want to eliminate the best aspect of E-Sports? That's asinine.
And besides, this is Starcraft 2, a game where mechanics have become easier and all ins and coin-flippy builds that much stronger. This gives foreigners a huge advantage that never existed in BW. If you really want foreigners to win, then let's keep dumbing down SC2 until it really does become a game of rock paper scissors Perhaps the computer can execute builds for you, and you get to select them from a dropdown list that you prepopulate ahead of time. But oh that's right, that would again make the competition a completely invalid joke.
The increasing presence of Korean players on Foreign teams will allow foreign players to learn how they practice and how they play and the overall skill gap SHOULD eventually lessen.
The motivation for Korean players moving over to foreign teams is rather basic, foreign teams can offer them better financial compensation.
Think about it, even if they have quotas, you'll say, "Oh I lost interest because i know there will be two koreans in the final." because most likely Koreans will stomp the North American pros (who should really kick it in to high gear). Hell why not just put all koreans in one part of the bracket so that we force a korean vs foreigner final
On April 10 2012 09:15 ghrur wrote: So let me get this correctly, people like FairForever like watching foreigners more than Koreans, so they generalize this across to those of us (seems like the MAJORITY) who just watch for the skill of the game involved and say ESPORTS WILL DIE GUIZZZZZ! when we say foreigners should just get better because we want to watch the best games possible. This leads to more whining when the best solution is honestly just get better and practice more? Right...
Foreigners suck guys. Read the old Rekrul threads. They're still true. They just need to get better. Huk, Stephano, Naniwa, etc. have shown they can compete with the best. Just practice more.
I actually prefer watching Koreans. But I'm also a realist. None of my friends who play SC2 know who Creator, Squirtle, Jjakji are (of course they can name MKP, Boxer, Nestea). And that's not healthy if most casuals don't care.
You're not a realist. You're a biased person using anecdotal evidence to try and convince me in a zero-information system. Great. I have casual friends who play SC2 and don't care about Idra or Huk but prefer to watch high level play from Nestea, MMA, or MKP. Nothing you say makes you more of a realist than me, but how about some data? I'm pretty sure IPL had 60k viewers at least despite the Korean dominance.
this is not a problem... sports advance thanks to dominant champions and players... the fact that we can always talk about mythical Korean god-like players give the sport appeal... we want quality... we want to see the best... not some affirmitive action program.
Starcraft 2 pretty much caters to the hardcore enthusiast. I don't really see it gaining any new casual players in the near future as the game is rather unfriendly and somewhat boring to new casual players (wow, another smurf account as my opponent, who woulda thunk it). Ladder matches have dropped in numbers substantially at the lower levels.
It is what it is. It's a game that has a lot of hardcore players who want to see the best players playing. The NA and EUR scene is pretty much dead but there are a handful of skilled players who are fun to watch. There is just zero money to train players outside maybe 3 foreign teams, and the multiplayer portion of SC2 isn't that addictive to the masses (wow, a ladder that's 100% meaningless).
Blizzcon had 14 foreigners who all had to win regional qualifiers to get there. MVP and Nestea were still top 2. WCG had 53 foreigners and 3 koreans. MVP won while supernova and MKP finished top 8. Foreigners always outnumber koreans at IEM and local heros get a chance to show off, only once did a non korean win an IEM last year. There are already instances where korean competitor number is limited, these events feel no more competitive or international to me than MLG or ipl where korean dominance is rampant.
Not to mention it would be impossible to limit player invites for one nation and do it fairly. People would always only invite the big names who draw crowds leaving lesser known/popular but equally skilled players to lament the fact that they never get a chance to be seen.
The only thing I would suggest the western scene change is having more national level competitions to breed stronger competition within regions. People can see more western players that way and it would help ensure that top players in each area are regularly challenged and rewarded. Hopefully that would lead to a healthier level of foreign competitiveness at international events.
* I'm ignoring training and infrastructure problems for the moment since that's honestly a whole seperate issue.
On April 10 2012 09:57 Grend wrote: How about foreigners improving?
Not happening any time soon. You've seen the best of the foreign players already, and there are zero players that will emerge in the next little while. The names you see right now are really just older names from the initial batch of SC1 and WC3 converts.
I think foreign teams need to put more effort into finding and grooming foreigners, rather than just recruiting Koreans.
Look at Scarlett, she was just a ladder player. Imagine how good she'll be once she gets picked up by a team and has even better practice for several months. Then imagine all the other teamless players in NA and EU GM also getting that kind of opportunity.
In my opinion, sports have served as a proxy for competition between human groups from the dawn of time. The Greek Olympic games between the city-states of Athens, Sparta, etc., one of the prototypes of modern international sports, were a proxy for the rivalry between these states - and a means of conducting diplomacy. Participants were drawn from each of the city-states not because they were of equal skill to those found in other states, but because they stood symbolically for their home states, and their victories and defeats reflected upon those states, their publics, and their political image.
At its basic level, the competition between how far two men are able to throw a ball is not very tantalizing, and easily becomes dull. But cast in the mold of a rivalry between two public bodies, they attract legions of attentive fans. For through the narrative of international competition, the sportsman is reformed into the role of the hero - the champion of his people and the bearer of their hope and esteem. His success in a simple act is then transformed into a victory of the people, and through it, an event of utmost importance.
Thus it was with the Greeks, and thus it is today with international sports and eSports. Competition in Starcraft, no different from other sports, is fundamentally a social construct. Without the social context, being good at Starcraft is immaterial and inconsequential - after all, it's just a computer game. But when cast in the mold of the foreigner vs. Korean rivalry, of an international competition between players from all over the world, it takes on a new meaning. That meaning is what grants a simple sport the ability to swing the gaze of the world.
The purpose of ensuring equal participation between the SC playing regions is not to give foreigners an unfair advantage in eSports. Korean players are not to be restricted because they are too good, but because having too many of them in a single competition compromises the function of international sports as a proxy for international competition. Having twenty Koreans in a global competition facing off against a single foreigner breaks the role of the sport, and that is what has to be prevented for SC to take on the importance that other sports have.
In short, it's not about restricting Koreans from SC 2 competitions - it's about ensuring that other people have the opportunity to be in the spotlight. But this is contingent on the way tournaments are conducted, as well - the reason IPL 4 was a tournament of Koreans was because the foreigners fighting their way through the OB were basically invisible. I am willing to entertain a solution that continues to give Koreans a lot of spots in tournaments, provided it gives foreigners the ability to stand in the spotlight to perform their roles as proxies.
i dont really think its all due to lack of work ethic on the foreigners part, as many players play 10+ hours a day and put a lot of effort into the game (granted koreans do work harder in general). I think the main reason is a lack of focus and drive to that practice. I don't know for sure, but id suspect its got something to do with the fact that korean teams have coaches to help them out. Most tennis players and golfers have their own coaches to help them out and you wouldn't expect the majority of players without coaches to really compete with those that do.
Banning or lowering Korean participation in foreign tournaments will be horrible for starcraft as an esport as it will lower the bar and skill level among non-Koreans.
And while I do believe in a healthy international turnout I also believe that the overall skill level of the game cannot be sacrificed. If the majority of the talent exist in Korea then the majority of participants in premier events should be Korean.
build a time machine. travel back. have you're dad elope with a korean woman. this way you at least have a chance with half of the appropriate genes at your disposal.
On April 10 2012 09:28 tranmillitary wrote: My final take on this issue. Watching nestea talking to MC while being down 2-0 to squirtle... and coming up with 2 great strategies to tie up the series... this is great. 3 hatch slow lings? These are the things that Idra/stephano or any foreigner will never do. Watching stephano and idra play is so bland. I'm not bashing them but this is how every game idra/stephano goes:
3 hatch macro up and try to drone up to 80, if someone pushes around 9 mins, make roaches and try to hold off, lings/banes/roaches til BL's, than BL's, infestors, queens. Every single game. People seriously want to see that every game?
We need the best stars of the world to showcase their skills. Just like MMA vs stephano... 5 prong attacks with 4 manner sensor towers in the same area. manner mules to block off stephano's troops that are running home. Why watch jump shooting players when you can see dunking??
Well, if what you want is all-ins, nestea is your man!
Yeah because all Nestea can do is All-ins. Shows how much you know about SC2 and e-sports in general. Too many kids on this forum.
I'm sure it's not all he can do, but it was what he did.
As most people in the thread have already said, it doesn't freaking matter. It's an international competition and the problem isn't "Koreans", it's people with a damn ethic for the game and practice.
We need a foreigner all-star house where all the teams can come together and train. World all-stars vs Korea 2.0 would be great if the foreigners could unite.
On April 10 2012 09:57 Grend wrote: How about foreigners improving?
Not happening any time soon. You've seen the best of the foreign players already, and there are zero players that will emerge in the next little while. The names you see right now are really just older names from the initial batch of SC1 and WC3 converts.
There are players like Illusion who could be amazing. He's rapidly improving, even beating some big name Koreans at MLG, while most foreign pros are either at a peak or declining. The thing is, he's on Vile (nothing against Vile, this could apply to many other players/teams) who doesn't have the funds for a team house, paid trips to Korea, partnership with Korean teams, etc. Imagine how good him and other young talents would be if they had the same support as EG players...
5 from korea isn't gonna stop the domination. They'll just take top 5 instead of Top 16
Limiting the number of spots isn't enough if foreigners don't start working harder. I don't really care though, I enjoy koreans winning. They work the hardest, they deserve to win.
People in NA and EUR are kinda wierd. We tend to like getting paid when we work. Generally more than 25 cents an hour.
Cool. Stop playing SC then.
I think it might be happening already. It would be good if some started to look in the long term towards what his good for the scene. We need to foster local talents, that requires geographically locked leagues, as for ANY other sport in the world. (Btw, if you didn't notice GSL and all of the BW KR scene are geographically locked by virtue of being lans).
There aren't many kids picking up the game. Some guy said earlier something in the lines of "don't you think there are millions of 14-15 eu or na kids that could be as good as maru", to that i must answer just no... There are around 200000players in NA, and the playerbase is pretty much much more diluted in age and space (age is only my hypothesis due to BW still going strong in KR). We have many many players on this forum saying "I am the only one of my local circle that still plays SC2". That is what is happening. Please people, heads out of the ***, then take a deep breath. Think about what could make people play, and get interested in SC2. There are oozes of worthy activities outside there, and there needs to be something to make starcraft stick out of the bunch! Some emotional connection! Think of the something that could make LoL into the huge thing it is, easy to pick up game that you can play with FRIENDS. SC2 being mainly 1v1 I think local leagues going into regionals and national leagues (for the rise of local champions) could help alleviate this problem. It's no good to be in a contracting market, sponsors have a tendency to not like that...
Because it deals with an important question that has been up to debate for some time, and for which no definitive answer has been found, or acted upon until now. It is disappointing you still didn't notice.
People in NA and EUR are kinda wierd. We tend to like getting paid when we work. Generally more than 25 cents an hour.
Cool. Stop playing SC then.
I agree with this guy. If you want to win, maybe people should get better at the game. NA needs to step it up a notch to get better. Or we need cross server play, so the Koreans can knock us all down to the leagues we really belong in.
Nothing should be done, tis up to foreigners to step up, if they dont koreans can take the money. Simple as that. Not sure these sorts of topics warranted another 1000 threads.
On April 10 2012 12:06 TAMinator wrote: Nothing should be done, tis up to foreigners to step up, if they dont koreans can take the money. Simple as that. Not sure these sorts of topics warranted another 1000 threads.
That won't happen anytime soon. What will you do when the foreign scene dies. Don't forget the KR scene is partially banking on the success of the foreign scene too.
On April 10 2012 11:52 mordk wrote: 5 from korea isn't gonna stop the domination. They'll just take top 5 instead of Top 16
Limiting the number of spots isn't enough if foreigners don't start working harder. I don't really care though, I enjoy koreans winning. They work the hardest, they deserve to win.
Koreans taking top 5 in a tournament is better for viewers than them taking top 16 for the simple reason that foreigner fans want to see their champions compete against the best.
Losing honorably is better than being unseen. In IPL 4, other than Stephano, White-Ra, IdrA, and Scarlett, foreigner champions received next to no air time. HuK, SaSe, and Illusion all made daring runs in the OBs, but none of it was streamed because IPL 4 focused on pool play and no foreigner made it into pool play but those who were seeded.
But this isn't an issue with IPL alone. The way tournaments are seeded right now, soon enough there is going to be no foreigners in pools. This means that you are going to get tournaments where, from the first day to the last day of the tournament, not a single foreigner game is going to be shown.
At that stage, SC 2 becomes BW and the scene loses its ability to attract sponsors and viewers outside of the hardcore niche.
Read my post above for why that is the death of SC 2 as an eSport.
Dreamhack and IEM can certainly limit the amount of Korean participants. But most tournaments in USA allow players to qualify and when there are qualifiers, there will be a lot of Koreans.
Also, i feel bad for those who enjoy the players more than the games.
We need to practice more. If you see a Korean putting in 8-10 hours a day on this game, not even getting paid to do so and then you see a Foreigner just playing 3-5 hours and getting rolled by that Korean, does that make sense?
How many Foreigners that don't live in a practice house have a strict practice plan and solid amount of games per day(good games). Not TONS of them. Foreigners have it better than Koreans when it comes to salaries. The Koreans have a never give up attitude, they get money through tournaments us foreigners get money more than that.
This thread is pretty stupid imo because Koreans just work harder, and those foreigners you see doing well vs Koreans have a good practice regime. Improvement is among those who work hard. This game doesn't reward laziness.
On April 10 2012 11:52 mordk wrote: 5 from korea isn't gonna stop the domination. They'll just take top 5 instead of Top 16
Limiting the number of spots isn't enough if foreigners don't start working harder. I don't really care though, I enjoy koreans winning. They work the hardest, they deserve to win.
Koreans taking top 5 in a tournament is better for viewers than them taking top 16 for the simple reason that foreigner fans want to see their champions compete against the best.
Losing honorably is better than being unseen. In IPL 4, other than Stephano, White-Ra, IdrA, and Scarlett, foreigner champions received next to no air time. HuK, SaSe, and Illusion all made daring runs in the OBs, but none of it was streamed because IPL 4 focused on pool play and no foreigner made it into pool play but those who were seeded.
But this isn't an issue with IPL alone. The way tournaments are seeded right now, soon enough there is going to be no foreigners in pools. This means that you are going to get tournaments where, from the first day to the last day of the tournament, not a single foreigner game is going to be shown.
At that stage, SC 2 becomes BW and the scene loses its ability to attract sponsors and viewers outside of the hardcore niche.
Read my post above for why that is the death of eSports.
I'd rather watch a tournament without foreigners than a tournament with a bunch of foreigners seeded in as fodder for the Koreans. Spots should be earned, I have no preference for a player's nationality.
If you cannot support the scene without crappy players from the west, then let the western scene die out. There is no reason to force it to limp along.
On April 10 2012 12:03 freakhill wrote: Because it deals with an important question that has been up to debate for some time, and for which no definitive answer has been found, or acted upon until now. It is disappointing you still didn't notice.
Did you just claim that a definitive answer has been found? And that this definitive answer can be found in this thread but not the dozens of other threads covering the exact same topic? Please tell us what this new definitive answer is.
This isn't a problem. Foreigners just need to catch up. Viewers want to watch the best players and game play, and for now this is just provided by the Korean players.
On April 10 2012 12:12 Leeoku wrote: thats a dumb logic. like league of legends, moscow 5 was banned for being too pro so they cant make abuncha tournies. u cant neglect skill /hard work
I personally do not believe the problem is practice and hard work. We have foreigners who practice not as much (Stephano) who find success and foreigners who practice a lot (Idra) who do not find as much success. qxc even said in an interview, it doesn't matter if you grind all day if you have no focus or reason to. Dongraegu clearly stated in an interview he didn't need as much practice time for an event because he could just think up build orders and strategies in his head. I personally feel there are two reasons why foreigners are not as good versus Koreans.
The lesser of the reasons is environment. I do not mean utilities such as food and housing, I mean an environment that can allow players to draw out their full potential. We need really good coaches to help players analyze games and keep their morale up. We need a better network, so that if Idra wants to practice with Stephano, they can do so easily. At the IPL, we had MC helping Nestea. DRG said he practiced with MC for the GSL finals. MVP apparently practices with DRG a lot as well. MMA to a lesser extent borrows builds and discusses them with Thorazin. We need this kind of closeness with the foreign community. There are definitely problems, such as timezones and distance. All the korean players are together in one city pretty much.
The second major problem, and the bigger one in my opinion, is culture. Videogaming is not accepted in our society, so the people who could become the greatest players do not even consider the option. The tallest man in the world is (or used to be, I dunno) in China. If he trained from childhood, I bet he could have been a great basketball player. But he didn't. Because when he grew up, basketball wasn't even a major part of China's culture. Why are certain countries better at certain sports? Because the sports are a bigger part of their culture, so more people are exposed to it. Then a higher number of people with potential step forth. Not to be racist, but I am sure that if African countries picked up american football to the degree we have, they would be a dominant force of american football in the world.
On April 10 2012 12:06 TAMinator wrote: Nothing should be done, tis up to foreigners to step up, if they dont koreans can take the money. Simple as that. Not sure these sorts of topics warranted another 1000 threads.
That won't happen anytime soon. What will you do when the foreign scene dies. Don't forget the KR scene is partially banking on the success of the foreign scene too.
KR scene existed and will do fine without a massive foreign fanbase. If the "foreign scene" dies most of us will continue on with out lives, playing Sc2 and watching Koreans play Sc2. Select few foreigners who show a lot of potential may get the opportunity to play in Korea. Not the situation we have now where every GM from EU/NA thinks they are going pro.
The more you see them the more you relate to them. It felt weird seeing a bunch of players I didn't follow win the first few MLGs last year but now I don't mind at all if they're in the top 8 of most tournaments - they're the best players.
What to do? You mean as a viewer? Absolutely nothing. Just keep watching when/who you like, and have a good time, because in the end, that's what it comes down to.
As a Tournament organizer? DON'T cater to cheap ways to increase viewership. DO cater to skill, and only skill. DON'T ever taint the sanctity of competition.
As a player? Catch up with Koreans, but as much as I'd like that to happen, I have abandoned hope after IPL4. So I discard this possibility.
If everyone do that for a while, and let the dust clear, the true Starcraft 2 scene will emerge. NOT the bubble created by the novelty of the game, but the TRUE supporters of this e-sport. And then we will see either:
1.People look past the race/nationality/color of skin of a player and are attracted by the high-level play and amazing feats of human mind and dexterity, and the scene stagnates where it is now, or even grows. That would be the optimal scenario for me.
2.People can't cheer for Koreans no matter how much better they are compared to foreigners, because allegedly Koreans lack "personality", or something, and the international SC2 fanbase shrinks to what BW fanbase is now, consisting of few people here and there that actually like high-level Starcraft. That would be sad, but still ok. There will be fewer tournaments, fewer fans, fewer money, fewer everything, BUT I will still support SC2 scene and be glad everything I see is legitly built on sweat and blood of players striving for the best.
Now, if Tournaments start banning players according to race/nationality, and/or starts forgoing qualifiers in favor of invite-fan-favorites system, then that's the day I stop supporting SC2 and demand dropping the "e-sports" tag.
I would say there are maybe 10-15 pro's who can take a series and in some cases are favored against code A/S koreans. Of those I would say that only 3 and maybe 4 if what Illusion did wasn't a fluke were at IPL4. The ones who were there had some of the best runs with I think the only more impressive run being Squirtles run to the finals.
On April 10 2012 12:03 freakhill wrote: Because it deals with an important question that has been up to debate for some time, and for which no definitive answer has been found, or acted upon until now. It is disappointing you still didn't notice.
Really? An important question? I don't think so, I think it's overblown.
On April 10 2012 12:16 nokz88 wrote: What to do? You mean as a viewer? Absolutely nothing. Just keep watching when/who you like, and have a good time, because in the end, that's what it comes down to.
As a Tournament organizer? DON'T cater to cheap ways to increase viewership. DO cater to skill, and only skill. DON'T ever taint the sanctity of competition.
As a player? Catch up with Koreans, but as much as I'd like that to happen, I have abandoned hope after IPL4. So I discard this possibility.
If everyone do that for a while, and let the dust clear, the true Starcraft 2 scene will emerge. NOT the bubble created by the novelty of the game, but the TRUE supporters of this e-sport. And then we will see either:
1. People look past the race/nationality/color of skin of a player and be attracted by the high-level play and amazing feats of human mind and dexterity, and the scene will stagnate where it is now, or even grow. That would be the optimal scenario for me.
2. People can't cheer for Koreans no matter how much better they are compared to foreigners, because allegedly Koreans lack "personality", or something, and the international SC2 fanbase shrinks to what BW fanbase is now, consisting of few people here and there that actually like high-level Starcraft. That would be sad, but still ok. There will be fewer tournaments, fewer fans, fewer money, fewer everything, BUT I will still support SC2 scene and be glad everything I see is legitly built on sweat and blood of players striving for the best.
Now, if Tournaments start banning players according to race/nationality, and/or starts forgoing qualifiers in favor of invite-fan-favorites system, then that's the day I stop supporting SC2 and demand dropping the "e-sports" tag.
Problem is we have international teams that are picking up koreans right now. So how do we decide on the nationality? By place of birth, residence or team? Competitions like Olympics don't have this problem because they are nation based. But with sc2, this is much harder to define.
Like any sports, we want to watch the best games by best teams / players. What if World Cup tournament bans the countries which are good? This threat idea is stupid, enjoy the game instead of nationality
if ppl want the foreign scene to exclude koreans just so we can make more money and show shitty games then i say its better to lets this esport thing die
Korean server >>>> > foreign servers in general. Larger sample size of actual good players / people to practice with (i don't recognize 60% of the NA GM list, but nearly everyone in korea GM is on a pro team / code a etc. Since ladder is often one of the main ways to practice, they are just simply playing with better people with better builds.
IMO this is also why IdrA has fell off the charts. When he was in korea full time he was in Code S, but now he just practices on NA ladder and with (sorry) not top notch teammates on the NA server. Meanwhile, players like ST Squirtle are constantly playing against code s players on the GM ladder.
I've seen less offensive topics than this locked, and their authors warned, if not worse. I don't see the value in the discussion of any topic where the OP suggests that certain players which tend to place well in consecutive tournaments simply due to geographic and lingual differences. If certain players are able to continually succeed over others, even though the others are able to analyze their builds and styles of play, and these dominating players are able to keep their crown even with the availability of replays and other such methods of reflective analysis in this age of gaming, I say more power to them and I thank them for their innovation and contribution to the top tier, winning strategies many refer to as the metagame of the time.
Look at how many koreans were at IPL compared to foreigners. Of course koreans are going to continue their dominance if they take up 90% of the invites at foreign premier events.
Sigh... If playing a Korean scares you just by the fact that they introduce themselves by saying theyre from South Korea, you can just scare them back by saying you are north korean instead.
The Korean dominance in recent events. What to do?
Accept the fact that SC2 will never be mainstream and Koreans will always be better so you may as well enjoy the game for the sake of the game instead of rooting for a flag.
On April 10 2012 11:52 mordk wrote: 5 from korea isn't gonna stop the domination. They'll just take top 5 instead of Top 16
Limiting the number of spots isn't enough if foreigners don't start working harder. I don't really care though, I enjoy koreans winning. They work the hardest, they deserve to win.
Koreans taking top 5 in a tournament is better for viewers than them taking top 16 for the simple reason that foreigner fans want to see their champions compete against the best.
Actually, the evidence in this thread is that only a handful of people want to limit Koreans, and an avalanche of people want to see the best play the best, no restrictions.
You've got to justify or bring some sort of evidence to back up your statements. This thread is a good piece of evidence against you, and you have provided none.
I have seem almost solely positive feedback regarding the switch from MLG to having first some Koreans, then to more and more. Americans seem to love having the top Koreans come over and play on their stages. Where are you getting the idea that Americans would rather root for Americans?!
For those who think this is a terribly offensive and racist idea- Did you know Korean sports leagues put a cap on foreign players on their sports teams? In the professional Korean basketball and baseball leagues they're only allowed two foreign players per team and in soccer four players per team. I guess in Korea the idea of fostering a country's own talent is quite well accepted.
On April 10 2012 12:23 foxj wrote: Like any sports, we want to watch the best games by best teams / players. What if World Cup tournament bans the countries which are good? This threat idea is stupid, enjoy the game instead of nationality
All Koreans vs. no Koreans is a false dichotomy.
Tournaments that describe themselves as international start with a bracket of players drawn from all over the world, not just the region with the best players for that sport.
The problem with today's premier SC 2 tournaments is that while they do try to start with such a bracket, by the time the tournament hits its premier stage, the foreigner favorites have been eliminated.
People want to see their foreigner champions compete on stage against the best in the world. They don't want to see them going out in an online qualifier with 5k viewers.
Tournament formats in SC 2 have to change to avoid the farce of every high-profile event ending up with an entirely Korean line-up, which, when seen by sponsors and audiences, says that SC 2 is not an international sport but a Korean sport.
Look at how many koreans were at IPL compared to foreigners. Of course koreans are going to continue their dominance if they take up 90% of the invites at foreign premier events.
As far as I know, Only MC, Nestea, MMA (multiple GSL champs) were invited for pool play. The other koreans all qualified for the Pool play via qualifiers. aLive, PuMa, Polt and Bomber via 2 online qualifers. Tails from UK Qualifiers(Stephano won but he already had invite as IPL3 winner). MKP from the Pacific Qualifiers. Those 9 + the 3 previous IPL winners were seeded into Pools. The others had to play from the open bracket. Jjajki got his expenses paid for winning IPL Tournament of Champions and the GSTL team players due to GSTL being hosted there. The rest of the koreans had to pay their own way via team/sponsor.
On April 10 2012 12:53 Azarkon wrote: Tournament formats in SC 2 have to change to avoid the farce of every high-profile event ending up with an entirely Korean line-up, which, when seen by sponsors and audiences, says that SC 2 is not an international sport but a Korean sport.
This is utterly false. When was the last time an Englishman won a Tennis Grand Slam, or England won the World Cup in Soccer? Are these sports not popular in England? There is an incredible dearth of talent among US Male tennis players (at the top level), yet the US Open is still a very popular event here in the states.
Do you see how crowds cheer for Federer, Nadal, Djokovic at tennis events? None of them come from a country that hosts one of the Grand Slam events, yet the crowds at these events worship them every time they win the tournament.
I see Federer advertising pricy Italian watches in my American sports magazines all the time. Your making up the idea that professional sports care about nationality. The World Cup, the Olympics are not professional sports leagues. They are the equivalent of the World Cyber Games. Individual competition professional sports are the best comparison, things like Tennis, Golf.
Also: Justify your statement that foreigners want to see foreigners instead of just the best players. 90% of this thread contradicts your assertion. Please back it up with evidence!
On April 10 2012 11:52 mordk wrote: 5 from korea isn't gonna stop the domination. They'll just take top 5 instead of Top 16
Limiting the number of spots isn't enough if foreigners don't start working harder. I don't really care though, I enjoy koreans winning. They work the hardest, they deserve to win.
Koreans taking top 5 in a tournament is better for viewers than them taking top 16 for the simple reason that foreigner fans want to see their champions compete against the best.
Actually, the evidence in this thread is that only a handful of people want to limit Koreans, and an avalanche of people want to see the best play the best, no restrictions.
You've got to justify or bring some sort of evidence to back up your statements. This thread is a good piece of evidence against you, and you have provided none.
I have seem almost solely positive feedback regarding the switch from MLG to having first some Koreans, then to more and more. Americans seem to love having the top Koreans come over and play on their stages. Where are you getting the idea that Americans would rather root for Americans?!
Read through the IPL LR threads. This was a hot topic all weekend long, and there was a spike in LR thread activity whenever foreigner favorites did well, and a drop after they were knocked out. No scientific study has been conducted on this subject - but David Ting admitting that it was a mistake to fill the tournament with that many Koreans is an example of the feedback they received.
Dominance recently? There's only one way to reply to that... OMGWTFROFLCOPTERSBBQZORZLOL
Sorry for the troll reply but Koreans have always dominated. There's nothing incredibly complicated that they do, they just practice more and maybe they do it more effectively.
Tournaments that describe themselves as international start with a bracket of players drawn from all over the world, not just the region with the best players for that sport.
Actually, it depends on the sport. For 'Olympics' sports, this is the case. And by 'Olympics', I don't necessary mean just Olympics. I mean sports that the general public usually don't care about until the Olympics. Things like Track and Field, Figure Skating, Badminton, etc. With those, a lot of the International competition does limit the number of representative from each country.
However, for the biggest individual sports, this is not the case. I am talking about Golf and Tennis, these 2 are purely merit based.
And then you have team sports like basketball, soccer etc which have teams based on cities but the players come from all over the world (although some leagues do have restrictions on the # of foreigners).
So if we want to argue which path we should take for SC2, golf and tennis seem to be more popular globally.
On April 10 2012 12:48 tomatriedes wrote: For those who think this is a terribly offensive and racist idea- Did you know Korean sports leagues put a cap on foreign players on their sports teams? In the professional Korean basketball and baseball leagues they're only allowed two foreign players per team and in soccer four players per team. I guess in Korea the idea of fostering a country's own talent is quite well accepted.
How well are professional Korean basketball and baseball doing?
On April 10 2012 13:02 Azarkon wrote: Read through the IPL LR threads. This was a hot topic all weekend long, and there was a spike in LR thread activity whenever foreigner favorites did well, and a drop after they were knocked out. No scientific study has been conducted on this subject - but David Ting admitting that it was a mistake to fill the tournament with that many Koreans is an example of the feedback they received.
Your making a mistake here though. People get excited when the foreigner players they follow do well against the top Koreans. There is a history of people on TL putting down accomplishments of foreign players when they are not against Koreans.
The excitement of foreigner performance is precisely because the tournament was chock-full of the best Koreans in the world.
Would people be talking about Scarlett so much if she had just beaten Ddoro and DeMuslim? The fact that BBprime and Oz were there allowed her to achieve something she could not have done otherwise. These are the players I presume you would advocate eliminating, the Open Bracket Koreans, among others. Having the Open Bracket full of Koreans lets players like Scarlett truly achieve something meaningful, rather than just playing other foreigners in a watered down version of the tournament.
On April 10 2012 12:53 Azarkon wrote: Tournament formats in SC 2 have to change to avoid the farce of every high-profile event ending up with an entirely Korean line-up, which, when seen by sponsors and audiences, says that SC 2 is not an international sport but a Korean sport.
This is utterly false. When was the last time an Englishman won a Tennis Grand Slam, or England won the World Cup in Soccer? Are these sports not popular in England? There is an incredible dearth of talent among US Male tennis players (at the top level), yet the US Open is still a very popular event here in the states.
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Do you see how crowds cheer for Federer, Nadal, Djokovic at tennis events? None of them come from a country that hosts one of the Grand Slam events, yet the crowds at these events worship them every time they win the tournament.
There are invariably fans who cut across national lines in every sport. I have not denied this, but I do not think focusing on these fans reveals the bigger picture.
I see Federer advertising pricy Italian watches in my American sports magazines all the time. Your making up the idea that professional sports care about nationality. The World Cup, the Olympics are not professional sports leagues. They are the equivalent of the World Cyber Games. Individual competition professional sports are the best comparison, things like Tennis, Golf.
All of which have national and regional leagues. None of which start off every tournament with players strictly from a single region of the world.
Either stop allowing "foreign"(based on tournament location) players to enter tournaments or stop complaining when they all end up being Korean. The top players are Koreans, and for any top tournament to be a top tournament, it should feature top players. In the early days, it seemed like everything was an invitational, except for GSL. The quality of the games was also very low. Now, the quality of the games is high and people complain because the players are mostly Korean? Something fishy going on here...
On April 10 2012 12:48 tomatriedes wrote: For those who think this is a terribly offensive and racist idea- Did you know Korean sports leagues put a cap on foreign players on their sports teams? In the professional Korean basketball and baseball leagues they're only allowed two foreign players per team and in soccer four players per team. I guess in Korea the idea of fostering a country's own talent is quite well accepted.
How well are professional Korean basketball and baseball doing?
Korean and "foreigner"... People from all over the world are on this website to discuss sc2. Most people care more for the sc2 race, than the country someone is coming from. Dont you think, it is time to forget at which coordinates a guys where born and care more for their sc2?
Take e.g. Socke vs MarineKing. If you ask me to go out drinking, i would take Socke. I have much more in common with an older German metal fan than a very young shy Korean boy that like kpop. If you ask me who i want to win in a sc2 match i take MarineKing. Because i have more in common with a Terran player, that like bio-style, than an random Protoss.
Op thinks that more causal would watch sc2, if we put some guys from his country in the pool, that loose every single game. Im no causal, i don't care what they want! They care what they want! Don't act like you (we) are able to change people interests into what you (we) want.
TLDR: Stop think about, what could make sc2 interesting for people, who are not interesting in sc2. Start think about, what could make s2 more interesting for people, who are interested in it. And get rid of the flags beside the name everywhere on TL and stuff like the foreigner first on the TLDP international.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
I see sports as proving that fans want to always see the best. People will always root for local heros, but when real competition is happening, they will always prefer to see the best players play for the biggest prize, and not give preference to anyone else.
Not a single professional individual sports league limits people by countries, that I know of. As I mentioned tennis and golf are by far the biggest in this arena. Powerlifting is also dominated by a certain bloc of countries.
On April 10 2012 13:02 Azarkon wrote: Read through the IPL LR threads. This was a hot topic all weekend long, and there was a spike in LR thread activity whenever foreigner favorites did well, and a drop after they were knocked out. No scientific study has been conducted on this subject - but David Ting admitting that it was a mistake to fill the tournament with that many Koreans is an example of the feedback they received.
Your making a mistake here though. People get excited when the foreigner players they follow do well against the top Koreans. There is a history of people on TL putting down accomplishments of foreign players when they are not against Koreans.
The excitement of foreigner performance is precisely because the tournament was chock-full of the best Koreans in the world.
Would people be talking about Scarlett so much if she had just beaten Ddoro and DeMuslim? The fact that BBprime and Oz were there allowed her to achieve something she could not have done otherwise. These are the players I presume you would advocate eliminating, the Open Bracket Koreans, among others. Having the Open Bracket full of Koreans lets players like Scarlett truly achieve something meaningful, rather than just playing other foreigners in a watered down version of the tournament.
I don't think you get me, because you're agreeing with me - people are excited when the best foreigners face off against the best Koreans. That is the highlight of SC 2 as an eSport - when the champions of foreigners are stacked up against top Korean pros and play great games. That is what we all want to foster.
But that's not going to happen when premier tournaments end up with 16 Koreans in pool play and 20-30 in the OBs, the latter of whom then knock out every single foreigner in the OBs in non-streamed games.
No international sport has that kind of system.
I know a few sports that do, however.
BW. Ping Pong. Tell me - are these international sports?
On April 10 2012 12:03 freakhill wrote: Because it deals with an important question that has been up to debate for some time, and for which no definitive answer has been found, or acted upon until now. It is disappointing you still didn't notice.
Did you just claim that a definitive answer has been found? And that this definitive answer can be found in this thread but not the dozens of other threads covering the exact same topic? Please tell us what this new definitive answer is.
Reading comprehension please. I mean, isn't English your native language?
On April 10 2012 13:18 Azarkon wrote: No international sport has that kind of system.
I know a few sports that do, however.
BW. Ping Pong. Tell me - are these international sports?
Wait, what professional individual sports league limits people by country? As said before, the World Cup and Olympics aren't professional sports leagues per se. Golf and Tennis have professional leagues.
And re: Scarlett, TerriousPrime is not a top tier player in terms of Korean pro-gamers. Very, very few fans can tell of any of his accomplishments. There is great value to having these types of players in an open bracket in a tournament. It didn't matter that it was the first round of the Open Bracket in terms of the acclaim Scarlett got; no # of Koreans in a tournament will stop foreigners from at least competing in the first round of an Open Bracket.
Answer: Absolutely nothing. They're the best. Who the hell would watch the We-Cannot-Beat-Blacks-So-We-Formed-Our-Own-Basketball-Association Basketball Association (WCBBSWFOOBABA?).
Not supporting OP. It would be idiotic just to take few good players instead of shitloads of great players. It makes the games more interesting. It is not Korean players fault that they train hard and have certain ambition, it clearly has been shown in the past events.
I'm giving up here, the growth and popularity of MLG should be proof enough that foreigners want to see the best play on the big stage, and won't turn their backs if its Korean v Korean. I think its a myth that there is a large segment of the SC2 population that is hardcore enough to follow an IPL or MLG but not hardcore enough to know & root for the Korean players/GSL. If your watching IPL, then you already know who Nestea is.
People love Polt. People love Nestea. People love MKP. It goes on and on. Foreigners show their love for the Koreans at these tournaments. DRG? MC? Come on, are you saying the fans at these tournaments don't go bonkers when MC does something ridiculous?
If the foreign SC2 scene dies (and ultimately the overall SC2 scene) dies because the majority of so called SC2 fans in actuality only support foreign players, then so be it, let it fail, it just means that perhaps the majority of the world is not ready for such a global integration. Integration is hard, it requires the abandonment of many traditional values, in favor of some strange, new ones. Not everyone is willing or capable of going down that path, and that cool.
If foreigners only want to root for other foreigners like some of posters suggest, I am sure they can find plenty of sports or other activities in which their respective country/culture/race dominates in. And of course I do not mean to imply that only foreigners feel this way, I am sure many Koreans watch SC because of their country's dominance in the game.
I can understand that people want to connect to players on a more personal level, hence they root for players from their own country or race, but please, don't make any more stupid posts about Koreans not having personalities. They have just as much personality as the rest of your heroes, its just that in your limited sphere of knowledge and experience, you are incapable of perceiving them.
I find it funny that ppl use the "international" aspect of the tournament to hide the fact that they are bitter about being utterly dominated by Koreans. You dont have skill, you deserve none. Its that simple. Inferiority complex wont get you nowhere
On April 10 2012 12:06 TAMinator wrote: Nothing should be done, tis up to foreigners to step up, if they dont koreans can take the money. Simple as that. Not sure these sorts of topics warranted another 1000 threads.
That won't happen anytime soon. What will you do when the foreign scene dies. Don't forget the KR scene is partially banking on the success of the foreign scene too.
KR scene existed and will do fine without a massive foreign fanbase. If the "foreign scene" dies most of us will continue on with out lives, playing Sc2 and watching Koreans play Sc2. Select few foreigners who show a lot of potential may get the opportunity to play in Korea. Not the situation we have now where every GM from EU/NA thinks they are going pro.
Have you read the recent interview on BW Team 8 coach (Jaedong on SC2 yeaaah _o/!!). Have you followed Mr. Chae's interview and noted the efforts they put to touch the international community. Have you not noticed the wave of koreans hunting for foreign-teams? SC2 is not big in Korea, at all, and it needs all the help it can. This is not BW. I do not know the inside trades but from the sign the public can get, the foreign scene is noticeably important to the KR scene. It's perhaps not critically important, but they do seem to be banking on the stuff, at least currently.
My god there's a thread about this after every event. It bothers me, a ton. What should we do about it? Nothing. "We" should let the teams figure out how they want to run their events. As spectators, what power do "we" have? We shouldn't let other countries have players come over, why exactly? That's preposterous. Now complexity has a player they want to compete in a tournament that they've contracted, and they can't use him? Pfft!
On April 10 2012 13:18 Azarkon wrote: No international sport has that kind of system.
I know a few sports that do, however.
BW. Ping Pong. Tell me - are these international sports?
Wait, what professional individual sports league limits people by country? As said before, the World Cup and Olympics aren't professional sports leagues per se. Golf and Tennis have professional leagues.
Which professional individual sports league has a skill skew so lopsided that were open qualifiers to be held across countries, the only players qualifying are going to be from the same country?
The very existence of an international professional individual sports league is contingent on there being viable talent across the entire world. Sports that do not fulfill this criteria do not receive this treatment, and are locally restricted.
SC 2 had viable talent across the entire world. But the way this is going, that's not going to continue, and when it discontinues, then SC 2 becomes BW - it becomes a localized sport.
I enjoy the Koreans in foriegn tournaments, and it gives me a good idea where the rest of the world stakes up against them. I cheer just as hard for MKP and Squirtle as I do for Idra and Stephano. They should be allowed to compete wherever they want.
There was recently a tournament announced which caters to the racial imbalance whiners:
The Starcraft II World Championship Series.
See, Blizzard has taken it upon themselves to sort out this Korean dominance matter. Basically, we'll get a tournament where champions from a number of regions will battle it out and, in the end, the Korean champion will probably win. I have foreseen it. An utterly predictable and uninteresting battle of a Korean superstar (or is it 2?) vs 30-something good foreigners and possibly no foreigner favourites due to the qualification rounds eliminating them.
On April 10 2012 13:21 OopsOopsBaby wrote: just last week theres a thread on foreigner skill on par with korea. make up your mind.
I was thinking about that thread as well and how ironic it seems now. Clearly Korean's are doing much better then foreigners currently. It seems after each major tournament there are these knee jerk reaction threads. Either the foreign seen will step it up or Korean's will dominate. Either way I'm happy to watch whoever wins.
On April 10 2012 13:25 Flare23 wrote: If the foreign SC2 scene dies (and ultimately the overall SC2 scene) dies because the majority of so called SC2 fans in actuality only support foreign players, then so be it, let it fail, it just means that perhaps the majority of the world is not ready for such a global integration. Integration is hard, it requires the abandonment of many traditional values, in favor of some strange, new ones. Not everyone is willing or capable of going down that path, and that cool.
If foreigners only want to root for other foreigners like some of posters suggest, I am sure they can find plenty of sports or other activities in which their respective country/culture/race dominates in. And of course I do not mean to imply that only foreigners feel this way, I am sure many Koreans watch SC because of their country's dominance in the game.
I can understand that people want to connect to players on a more personal level, hence they root for players from their own country or race, but please, don't make any more stupid posts about Koreans not having personalities. They have just as much personality as the rest of your heroes, its just that in your limited sphere of knowledge and experience, you are incapable of perceiving them.
There is no global integration.
BW was played professionally only in Korea. It was not an international sport. It was a Korean sport.
SC 2 is being played professionally across the world, but for how long? The death of the foreigner's scene is not a testament to the failure of global integration - all it shows is that only Koreans play SC professionally.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there is so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there is no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
On April 10 2012 13:18 Azarkon wrote: No international sport has that kind of system.
I know a few sports that do, however.
BW. Ping Pong. Tell me - are these international sports?
Wait, what professional individual sports league limits people by country? As said before, the World Cup and Olympics aren't professional sports leagues per se. Golf and Tennis have professional leagues.
Which professional individual sports league has a skill skew so lopsided that were open qualifiers to be held across countries, the only players qualifying are going to be from the same country?
The very existence of an international professional individual sports league is contingent on there being viable talent across the entire world. Sports that do not fulfill this criteria do not receive this treatment, and are locally restricted.
SC 2 had viable talent across the entire world. But the way this is going, that's not going to continue, and when it discontinues, then SC 2 becomes BW - it becomes a localized sport.
All successful sports (no exception) is built upon a pyramid of geographically locked local to international competitive structures. no exception i have the gale to think such a thing would help sc2...
Yeah this OP makes me shake my head. We should always be encouraging the HIGHEST level possible of competition, and if that means the foreigners aren't able to step up and compete at that level, then that's their own fault.
If we had a tournament like this the winner would still be Korean, the only difference would be that the overall quality of the games would be lower. Which might be great for people who can't tell the difference anyway and just want to see more white guys, but I don't think it would work in the long run for the same reason hardly anyone watches those female only tournaments. The quality of the games is most important.
We hear every year about how well tennis is doing in the lower age levels, how there are up and coming players about to break into tennis. We see many come, but just as many go.
In fact, participation in organized tennis could be doing well in the United States. But the statistics suggest otherwise. Especially when you drill down to see what the statistics mean.
Sure, you can point to great crowds in New York during the United States Tennis Open. But the stands are filled with foreigners. In fact, interest in tennis in the US is down substantially over the past few years, and continues to decline.
Some of the evidence of this decline comes from television ratings. Surely, if there is such an enormous number of tennis players in the US, TV viewership would have increased.
[b]It did not. Instead, over the last ten years, viewership of the US Open is down substantially. In an excellent statistical review, The New York Observer noted that ratings were down even for the Rafael Nadal 2010 Wimbledon match against Tomas Berdych which scored a 1.8 rating, its lowest rating since 1988 and one of the lowest in history.[/b
Most of the losses in fans comes from the absence of tennis on television. In many if not most systems, you have to buy The Tennis Channel. And in some, The Tennis Channel is not even available. But there is no need for tennis on television if there is no interest.
The need for better US players is considered critically important to the sport's success in the US. After all, if the NFL and NBA were in Europe, would US fans follow them much if at all? Thus, the USTA developed USTA Strategic Directions in 2007, with one goal that required dramatic change: to "dramatically increase efforts to identify outstanding young athletes to play tennis, encourage them to play tennis and nurture more American players into the world’s top 10."
There is little evidence that this has been successful so far. We certainly have a few US players who seem to be better than the rest, but none appears ready to take over a top-five world ranking. And none appear to have the talent to do so.
Although the statistics offered by recent US Census Bureau statistics suggest there have been changes in the demographics of tennis players, the fact that those with lower incomes seem to be playing the sport more could have its own debilitating effect. After all, the corporations who pay for the TV commercials are the Mercedes, Audis and Rolexes of the world. Not the Wal-Marts.
If the double-whammy of both continued lower ratings and the lack of important US tennis players continues, we are likely to see less interest in tennis over the next five years. And this is more critical than anything else.
There could be ways in which this could change. But this would require the nurturing of the best athletes in the US who will have to be convinced that they can pursue this sport and end up being able to earn millions in greater numbers than are currently available. Without this, the best athletes will continue to go to other sports.
In the end, if tennis is in decline, can it be saved? Your guess is probably better than mine.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
We should it back and enjoy the fact that non-discriminatory international tournaments allow us to see a far higher level of play than we'd otherwise be able to.
I'm from Canada, but if the top 100 players in the world were all from Belgium, I'd still want to see them show us brilliant, competitive matches before seeing the best Canadian, who's ranked 983, get obliterated easily (blatant hyperbole to illustrate the point).
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
Only if you can tell me why people watch League of Legends more than Starcraft 2 in the US.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
Dota is more popular than SC2 becaues WC3 was dirt cheap and easy to pirate so everyone had a copy. Larger player base = larger viewership. The real question you should be making is which is more popular in China, the GSL or the Chinese SC2 league (whatever it's called).
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
Only if you can tell me why people watch League of Legends more than Starcraft 2 in the US.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
Only if you can tell me why people watch League of Legends more than Starcraft 2 in the US.
Having world class US teams in LoL doesn't hurt.
Trust me, the competitive scene in LoL is not why it's popular. It's popular because its free, easy to play, and just downright fun. The majority of LoL players are bad and will most likely remain so. Also League is a completely different game than SC2. One of the reasons LoL is so popular and casual friendly is that you can play with your friends because its a team game.
there are people who can't connect to non english speaking players and there are people who are simply racist.
why lessen the skill cap of tournaments when we can put a larger emphasis on koreans to learn english? it is their second language over there afterall.
I think we should just regionalize the IPL qualifiers. Instead of having all 4 won by koreans, have a separate qualifier for each region. Edit: regional qualifiers for other tournaments also would be great, where new faces could rise to the top - such as Scarlett in the playhem sponsor me tournament, except it would be in a qualifier for each tournament. MLG's arena is so intriguing because of the mix of individuals in it. There are the top koreans, but then there are the unknowns, such as Drewbie who out of nowhere won the qualifier.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
Because Dota has a free access (piracy, Gerena, etc.), while SC2 has a price tag to it. Also the game has been out for so long comparing to SC2 and less stressful to play. Thus, it's not that surprising that Dota is popular in China and SE Asia. Being one of the best team in the world comes after that.
Gaming popularity, like sports, also depends on the number of players in the region. If there are more players then the there is more chance that the tournament has more viewers. Sure, top players being good at the game also helps increase the game popularity. But the level that each tournament offers also can't be ignored. The "Premier League" of SC2 right now can be boiled down to GSL, MLG, IPL, DH and IEM (also maybe Assembly too). These tournaments cannot afford to place a restriction on the number that each nation can send their players. They need to preserve the sense of being "the top leagues" of SC2.
What we need to do is growing more of regional leagues with smaller tournaments. Bringing in new players is more important than banning the top players to enter the top leagues. Running more local qualifiers would help (region, then national for example). But that means the local scene need to support the tournament too.
Koreans have a more established e-sport "way of life" i will call it. There is a reason there is so many korean team houses. Cause it works. Esports in the foreigner scene has increased but its no where close to being able to bring in 20 people to a house and practice all day. EG has as close to the korean house as it gets and their players are doing very well and are improving and before people even BEGIN to hate. It takes atleast a year to even get the full benifits from a team house. In korea people would stay at a team house 2 years before they even did a proleague match. You want eSports in the foreigner scene to get better? Support it. DOn't throw up whine threads when Sundance has a PPV event. It will be years before Korean vs Foreigner dominance goes away. Not going to happen overnight.
Also our top foreigners take games / matches off their top/championship quality players. Not really sure where this is all coming from. They have more better players because AGAIN they are more developted so when 30 good players enter a tournament at 25 of them are koreans odds are a korean will win.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
Chinese people watched Korean BW because the best BW players were Korean. Chinese people watched Chinese DotA because the best DotA players were Chinese.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
Chinese people watched Korean BW because the best BW players were Korean. Chinese people watched Chinese DotA because the best DotA players were Chinese.
Which does not explain why WC 3 viewership overtook BW viewership in popularity in China.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
Chinese people watched Korean BW because the best BW players were Korean. Chinese people watched Chinese DotA because the best DotA players were Chinese.
Does not explain why WC 3 overtook BW in popularity in China.
Because BW is an old ass game. WC3 overtook BW in popularity in every single country in the world besides Korea, proscene or not.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
You're comparing a game in its infancy (SC2) to an already established game like WC3 and Dota. Before there was a SKY, before there was an EHOME, there was a brand new game called WC3. It was fun, had great graphics, and most importantly was accessible to everyone. Why? Because it was FREE (with pirating). The scene developed because a broad range of people were able to play the game. How can you expect people enjoy watching competitive SC2 if they haven't even had an opportunity to play the game due to price?
Look at LoL: it's currently one of the most popular games in China right now. Chinese teams got raped at every international event other than IEM Guangzhou, yet it still retains its popularity. Why? The majority of LoL players don't even keep up with the competitive scene. Once again LoL is popular, not because of it's competitive scene, but because the average player can play for free and with their friends.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
Chinese people watched Korean BW because the best BW players were Korean. Chinese people watched Chinese DotA because the best DotA players were Chinese.
Does not explain why WC 3 overtook BW in popularity in China.
Because BW is an old ass game. WC3 overtook BW in popularity in every single country in the world besides Korea, proscene or not.
I'm talking about viewership for the proscene, and I can tell you it didn't in the US - BW viewership was and is bigger in this country than WC 3 viewership. EU was a different story, but that's because they had a WC 3 proscene, whereas we didn't.
TBH, I think WC 3 is a terrible spectator sport, and have no idea why people switched to watching it; in China's and Europe's case, however, there is a decipherable rationale - great local proscenes.
stupid to limit the talent when thousands of dollars are on the line. the players who are the best should get it, not people who got there by handicaps. end of story.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
You're comparing a game in its infancy (SC2) to an already established game like WC3 and Dota. Before there was a SKY, before there was an EHOME, there was a brand new game called WC3. It was fun, had great graphics, and most importantly was accessible to everyone. Why? Because it was FREE (with pirating). The scene developed because a broad range of people were able to play the game. How can you expect people enjoy watching competitive SC2 if they haven't even had an opportunity to play the game due to price?
Look at LoL: it's currently one of the most popular games in China right now. Chinese teams got raped at every international event other than IEM Guangzhou, yet it still retains its popularity. Why? The majority of LoL players don't even keep up with the competitive scene. Once again LoL is popular, not because of it's competitive scene, but because the average player can play for free and with their friends.
I'm not talking about the game's popularity - I'm talking about the game's viewership. A show match in Dota 2 between a washed out Chinese Dota star and an up and coming American team garnered 450,000 concurrent viewers. That's ten times the international viewership of the best players in the world in SC 2, and 2-3x that of LoL. You want to tell me again that local stars don't matter? Then tell me why Dendi - who is YaphetS's better in Dota 2 - never approaches those numbers in his streams and matches? Why Na'Vi, the best team in Dota 2, never gets those numbers?
Limiting top level tournaments to regions is just a stupid idea.
However, what you can do is to get a foundation from which top level players can emerge so some day in the future, foreigners will be on par with korea. I don't know much about sports, but from what i understand from the german soccer structure is that there are regional teams (basically each small village has it's own team), then lots of teams for larger and larger areas (small town -> commune -> state -> national) that each compete in their own regional leagues and good players from each stage get picked up by the higher up teams until eventually a small village soccer star turns into a national star.
Think about a similar structure in SC2. Having lots of small teams in regional leagues where you and a few friends can compete against other regional teams even if you are lower level and then the best players can work their way up and get scouted by top teams. That way you don't have to "go pro" immedatly, you can play competitively in regional leagues until you find a place in bigger leagues and you always have people around your skill level to practice with and push each other further up.
Regional Amateur leagues are the seeds from which top level stars grow. 99% of them won't ever be at the top, but the 1% have the potential to be global top stars.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
You're comparing a game in its infancy (SC2) to an already established game like WC3 and Dota. Before there was a SKY, before there was an EHOME, there was a brand new game called WC3. It was fun, had great graphics, and most importantly was accessible to everyone. Why? Because it was FREE (with pirating). The scene developed because a broad range of people were able to play the game. How can you expect people enjoy watching competitive SC2 if they haven't even had an opportunity to play the game due to price?
Look at LoL: it's currently one of the most popular games in China right now. Chinese teams got raped at every international event other than IEM Guangzhou, yet it still retains its popularity. Why? The majority of LoL players don't even keep up with the competitive scene. Once again LoL is popular, not because of it's competitive scene, but because the average player can play for free and with their friends.
I'm not talking about the game's popularity - I'm talking about the game's viewership. A show match in Dota 2 between a washed out Chinese Dota star and an up and coming American team garnered 450,000 concurrent viewers. That's ten times the international viewership of the best players in the world in SC 2, and 2-3x that of LoL. You want to tell me again that local stars don't matter? Then tell me why Dendi - who is YaphetS's better in Dota 2 - never approaches those numbers in his streams and matches? Why Na'Vi, the best team in Dota 2, never gets those numbers?
Fans appreciate SC2 because they play it. The game is simply too esoteric for someone who has never played it to enjoy watching. If no one can play it because they can't afford it, then obviously the viewer numbers will be lower. You spent multiple posts arguing that SC2 gets lower viewer numbers than WC3 and Dota, when its not even a fair comparison to made. Chinese people have had free access over the span of MANY years to Dota and WC3. The same can not be said about SC2.
Also if you really want to make this argument then you should dispute my argument about the NBA vs the Chinese Super League or European soccer leagues vs the MLS.
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
Chinese people watched Korean BW because the best BW players were Korean. Chinese people watched Chinese DotA because the best DotA players were Chinese.
Does not explain why WC 3 overtook BW in popularity in China.
Because BW is an old ass game. WC3 overtook BW in popularity in every single country in the world besides Korea, proscene or not.
I'm talking about viewership for the proscene, and I can tell you it didn't in the US - BW viewership was and is bigger in this country than WC 3 viewership. EU was a different story, but that's because they had a WC 3 proscene, whereas we didn't.
TBH, I think WC 3 is a terrible spectator sport, and have no idea why people switched to watching it. In China's and Europe's case, however, there is a decipherable rationale - great local proscenes.
The accessibility of Professional streams and tournaments to the average, casual player is so much greater nowadays than when BW or WC3 first came out. There are more factors governing which sports people watch, other than just the strength of the local pro scene.
Back when I used to play DOTA heavily the best players and teams were all European or Russian. MyM and vP were the 2 big teams. I am American and the American DOTA scene was very amateur compared to EU. I watched MyM vs. vP because they were by far the best teams at the time and vP especially was playing an aggressive, highly coordinated ganking style that was VERY different from the typical ricer, superfarm carry games that were popular at the time. It was much more exciting to watch the two very best teams duking it out, regardless of my nationality than it was to watch a complete stomp. Skill is what inspires people to want to succeed and the hopes of attaining that skill. Skill is what people want to see when they turn on a sport.
I was never into competitive BW, and I really only started learning about it when I got into SC2. However, I knew who boxer was, I'd seen the youtube clip of his ghost lockdowns vs. battlecruisers. I never knew who Idra or NoNy or Ret or any foreign SC BW pro was. Skill attracts attention and inspires fans.
hmm alot of aguments about skill being the only important factor, sure skill is important but getting ppl to follow the tournament is much more profitable and intresting for alot of viwers.
in IPL4 i must confess i found the open bracket FAR more intresting and fun to follow then poolplay and championship sunday due to the diversity of players / countries / regions
it would be like watching a hundred metter race with 8 from jamaica or watching a race with 2 from jamaica 2 from US 1 from britan 1 from spain 1 from kenya etc. even if the skill gap is larger its still fun for the jamicans to watch burt now it just apeals to a whole lot of other countries as well, and as long as there are qulifieres before hand to make sure you get the best from the regions it should be the best man winning but just get broader apeal.
if I want to watch the best of the best i watch GSL if i want to watch multible countries including koereans fight wil watch IP / MLG / Dreamhack etc. but when that ends up being 80% koreans i dont really see the apeal to watch that rather then watching GSL where all the players are in prime condition and not yetlagged not used to the food not whatever else there is.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
You're comparing a game in its infancy (SC2) to an already established game like WC3 and Dota. Before there was a SKY, before there was an EHOME, there was a brand new game called WC3. It was fun, had great graphics, and most importantly was accessible to everyone. Why? Because it was FREE (with pirating). The scene developed because a broad range of people were able to play the game. How can you expect people enjoy watching competitive SC2 if they haven't even had an opportunity to play the game due to price?
Look at LoL: it's currently one of the most popular games in China right now. Chinese teams got raped at every international event other than IEM Guangzhou, yet it still retains its popularity. Why? The majority of LoL players don't even keep up with the competitive scene. Once again LoL is popular, not because of it's competitive scene, but because the average player can play for free and with their friends.
I'm not talking about the game's popularity - I'm talking about the game's viewership. A show match in Dota 2 between a washed out Chinese Dota star and an up and coming American team garnered 450,000 concurrent viewers. That's ten times the international viewership of the best players in the world in SC 2, and 2-3x that of LoL. You want to tell me again that local stars don't matter? Then tell me why Dendi - who is YaphetS's better in Dota 2 - never approaches those numbers in his streams and matches? Why Na'Vi, the best team in Dota 2, never gets those numbers?
Fans appreciate SC2 because they play it. The game is simply too esoteric for someone who has never played it to enjoy watching. If no one can play it because they can't afford it, then obviously the viewer numbers will be lower. You spent multiple posts arguing that SC2 gets lower viewer numbers than WC3 and Dota, when its not even a fair comparison to made. Chinese people have had free access over the span of MANY years to Dota and WC3. The same can not be said about SC2.
Also if you really want to make this argument then you should dispute my argument about the NBA vs the Chinese Super League or European soccer leagues vs the MLS.
Not at all, because what I'm pushing here is not a MLS of SC 2, but a format for international tournaments that sustains the rivalry between foreigners and Koreans. The analogy to your example is a league that has both Chinese basketball teams and NBA basketball teams, and teams from all over the world besides.
The format of present day foreigner tournaments is gradually eliminating foreigners from the competition. That is what I want to see changed. To do so, I have to argue that having both foreigners and Koreans in a tournament is better than having just Koreans, which is what tournaments are going to end up with going down this path.
First of all. Not every sport does that and if it does its not that the strict during regular season. These restrictions usually apply for Olympics and world championship. We don't have any level of competition when you don't represent your team but your country instead. I mean we used to but they are mobile now :D
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
You're comparing a game in its infancy (SC2) to an already established game like WC3 and Dota. Before there was a SKY, before there was an EHOME, there was a brand new game called WC3. It was fun, had great graphics, and most importantly was accessible to everyone. Why? Because it was FREE (with pirating). The scene developed because a broad range of people were able to play the game. How can you expect people enjoy watching competitive SC2 if they haven't even had an opportunity to play the game due to price?
Look at LoL: it's currently one of the most popular games in China right now. Chinese teams got raped at every international event other than IEM Guangzhou, yet it still retains its popularity. Why? The majority of LoL players don't even keep up with the competitive scene. Once again LoL is popular, not because of it's competitive scene, but because the average player can play for free and with their friends.
I'm not talking about the game's popularity - I'm talking about the game's viewership. A show match in Dota 2 between a washed out Chinese Dota star and an up and coming American team garnered 450,000 concurrent viewers. That's ten times the international viewership of the best players in the world in SC 2, and 2-3x that of LoL. You want to tell me again that local stars don't matter? Then tell me why Dendi - who is YaphetS's better in Dota 2 - never approaches those numbers in his streams and matches? Why Na'Vi, the best team in Dota 2, never gets those numbers?
Fans appreciate SC2 because they play it. The game is simply too esoteric for someone who has never played it to enjoy watching. If no one can play it because they can't afford it, then obviously the viewer numbers will be lower. You spent multiple posts arguing that SC2 gets lower viewer numbers than WC3 and Dota, when its not even a fair comparison to made. Chinese people have had free access over the span of MANY years to Dota and WC3. The same can not be said about SC2.
Also if you really want to make this argument then you should dispute my argument about the NBA vs the Chinese Super League or European soccer leagues vs the MLS.
Not at all, because what I'm pushing here is not a MLS of SC 2, but a format for international tournaments that sustains the rivalry between foreigners and Koreans. The analogy to your example is a league that has both Chinese basketball teams and NBA basketball teams, and teams from all over the world besides.
The format of present day foreigner tournaments is gradually eliminating foreigners from the competition. That is what I want to see changed. To do so, I have to argue that having both foreigners and Koreans in a tournament is better than having just Koreans, which is what tournaments are going to end up with going down this path.
What rivalry are you talking about sustaining? And a gradual elimination is the best you can hope for, if you're rooting only for foreigners.
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
You're comparing a game in its infancy (SC2) to an already established game like WC3 and Dota. Before there was a SKY, before there was an EHOME, there was a brand new game called WC3. It was fun, had great graphics, and most importantly was accessible to everyone. Why? Because it was FREE (with pirating). The scene developed because a broad range of people were able to play the game. How can you expect people enjoy watching competitive SC2 if they haven't even had an opportunity to play the game due to price?
Look at LoL: it's currently one of the most popular games in China right now. Chinese teams got raped at every international event other than IEM Guangzhou, yet it still retains its popularity. Why? The majority of LoL players don't even keep up with the competitive scene. Once again LoL is popular, not because of it's competitive scene, but because the average player can play for free and with their friends.
I'm not talking about the game's popularity - I'm talking about the game's viewership. A show match in Dota 2 between a washed out Chinese Dota star and an up and coming American team garnered 450,000 concurrent viewers. That's ten times the international viewership of the best players in the world in SC 2, and 2-3x that of LoL. You want to tell me again that local stars don't matter? Then tell me why Dendi - who is YaphetS's better in Dota 2 - never approaches those numbers in his streams and matches? Why Na'Vi, the best team in Dota 2, never gets those numbers?
Fans appreciate SC2 because they play it. The game is simply too esoteric for someone who has never played it to enjoy watching. If no one can play it because they can't afford it, then obviously the viewer numbers will be lower. You spent multiple posts arguing that SC2 gets lower viewer numbers than WC3 and Dota, when its not even a fair comparison to made. Chinese people have had free access over the span of MANY years to Dota and WC3. The same can not be said about SC2.
Also if you really want to make this argument then you should dispute my argument about the NBA vs the Chinese Super League or European soccer leagues vs the MLS.
Not at all, because what I'm pushing here is not a MLS of SC 2, but a format for international tournaments that sustains the rivalry between foreigners and Koreans. The analogy to your example is a league that has both Chinese basketball teams and NBA basketball teams, and teams from all over the world besides.
The format of present day foreigner tournaments is gradually eliminating foreigners from the competition. That is what I want to see changed. To do so, I have to argue that having both foreigners and Koreans in a tournament is better than having just Koreans, which is what tournaments are going to end up with going down this path.
Tournaments nowadays already do that. Look at IPL 4 for example. They seeded past IPL winners to guarantee foreigner seeds. It's not their fault foreigners can't keep up. You can even go as far as seeding 90%+ foreigners like WCG or Homestory Cup. Ultimately, the longer the tournament remains, the higher likelihood you would have a Korean vs Korean match. The only thing you can do is invite lower caliber Koreans, but even they are favored to win and at that point you risk LOSING viewership due to low caliber of play.
Well, after reading most of the posts here, where users bring up the smaller leagues example - I agree, that on that "smaller" level, the number of players can be based on their nationality, but the biggest tournaments (IEM, MLG, IPL) shouldn't have those restrictions. As for the viewership - both fractions (those who seek skill and outstanding games and those, who are into cheering for players, not always the game itself) are somewhat right. But finding a solution for both of them is not really that easy for sponsors and organizers of tournaments. Comparisons between GSL and (let's say) NBA or NHL doesn't change anything. Players have to travel in order to get better. Look at the football leagues - local teams and leagues may prosper, but in the biggest scale, it all is international (and "old" Barcelona with Kluivert, Overmars and bunch of other Dutch comes to mind). To sum up - smaller tournaments and local leagues may operate on rules excluding koreans, but the biggest events should invite everyone. Or we should just wait until Blizzard's tournament kicks in.
On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote: Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is?
To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher?
Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?"
Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
To start from the top: Again, the fallback to bashing foreigners. I remember a time, not long ago, when Mana was among the few protoss players in all of SC2 who were able to beat Puma, with great anticipation and use of HTs not seen before. All that while playing in his spare time. Yes, Mana is a full-time student. But rather than cherish the talent it takes to compete with full time pros playing in your spare time, why not point out the faults in his PvZ matchup instead.
Good play does not only happen in Korea, just as SC2 innovation happens outside of Korea. Do you remember who pioneered the fast upgrades for spling -> infestor that is now a stable of all zergs and is played around 50% of the time in ZvT? Stephano, coming up with it on his own, playing on the European ladder and wrecking IPL 3 as a result. Has there been a more important metagame innovation for zergs? How did nestea play his ZvP against squirtle in the 4/8 games in which he didn't all-in/cheese/coin-flip? That's right, the 12 minute 200 food roach-ling 'Stephano' style.
As far as I could find the numbers, about the same number of viewers tune in to MLS as the PL (http://www.epltalk.com/epl-and-mls-neck-and-neck-in-mondays-tv-ratings-battle-on-espn2-40159). It's a bit hard to argue with your personal experience from China and Belize, but surely you recognize that a lot more than looking for the "best play" is going on here. Could teenagers in Belize be looking for something more than high level basketball when they watch NBA, do you think? Even more important, these were kids who play the game themselves. That's the big problem with SC2. No-one plays the game anymore.
Most importantly, you're again ignoring the issue that this quality of 'best' play is a relative rather than absolute quality and seem to think that the enjoyment of viewers are decided by the level of play. But what of the play a year ago, that was so much worse than it is today? Did you not enjoy yourself then? Were people simply deluded when they thought they were watching good matches?
What I'm telling you is that the level of play is only a part of the story, and not the most important part. Perhaps to us, the hardcore fans, the people who care enough to argue about SC2, and have watched the hundreds and thousands of hours of SC2 it takes to be able to tell the difference without being told. But we're not the majority of viewers and were not enough to sustain the current level of tournaments. For that you need the casuals, the sometime watchers and you need new viewers. Do you really believe that having future IPL tournaments, this time without Stephano to represent the foreign scene among the best in the world, would not and will not hurt the viewership?
Of course, people will pay more attention if someone from their country does well in the sport/e-sport. However, this is due to the fact that person is doing well and not because he gets to participate since he is from a certain country. Even if we do have regional qualifiers, if the foreigner players don't step up, they will just lose in the opening rounds anyways and I doubt that would generate interest. Looking at Stephano, I am sure a lot of people tuned in since he was the last foreign hope. But he MADE it by playing well in his group. Do you think people would be interested if Stephano just got seeded into Ro8 because he was a foreigner?
How did nestea play his ZvP against squirtle in the 4/8 games in which he didn't all-in/cheese/coin-flip? That's right, the 12 minute 200 food roach-ling 'Stephano' style.
Only the foreigners call this the 'Stephano' style... The fast 3rd with roaches vs FFE has been around for a long time. Sure, Stephano has his variate and Nestea has his, as do other zergs...
Arguments for more foreigner wins in the future: As the scene grows the best Koreans can't be at every event all over the world thus making it easier for foreigners to make it. The Korean teams will in the future invest in foreigner talent as it makes sense from a sponsorship and fan perspective. The number of team houses in the foreign scene has gone from zero to more than five-six as far as i know and it will likely increase even more.
So I don't mind Koreans and remember that they had a head start with team houses, a big tournament and dedicated players.
Also, in the open bracket of 128 players, there were 34 koreans which is 26%. It is not really their fault for winning and taking all 8 seeds... So they play with a handicap like on OTR?
Esports organisers should make koreans play with one hand, maybe they will lose that way ) and give others a chance. Stop joking around, if you want to win 40k dollars then you should work hard for them and prove you are the best, just like in any other competition. Winners get all, the rest go and practice, become stronger and try again till they manage to win.
On April 10 2012 15:57 vthree wrote: Of course, people will pay more attention if someone from their country does well in the sport/e-sport. However, this is due to the fact that person is doing well and not because he gets to participate since he is from a certain country. Even if we do have regional qualifiers, if the foreigner players don't step up, they will just lose in the opening rounds anyways and I doubt that would generate interest. Looking at Stephano, I am sure a lot of people tuned in since he was the last foreign hope. But he MADE it by playing well in his group. Do you think people would be interested if Stephano just got seeded into Ro8 because he was a foreigner?
How did nestea play his ZvP against squirtle in the 4/8 games in which he didn't all-in/cheese/coin-flip? That's right, the 12 minute 200 food roach-ling 'Stephano' style.
Only the foreigners call this the 'Stephano' style... The fast 3rd with roaches vs FFE has been around for a long time. Sure, Stephano has his variate and Nestea has his, as do other zergs...
I think more people tuned in because whitera & idra played in the groupstages than would if they had not. I think it is worth using some form of regional qualifiers to ensure that there is representation of foreign players. In a sense that means restricting Korean players if the alternative method of qualification in an open bracket (and if the tournament pays for the airfare, Korean teams in general don't have the money to fly out their players). I think it is important in order to sustain the interest in SC2 as a spectator-sport outside the hardcore viewers. But also, let's not overdo the 'foreigners, so bad' line. Foreigners can compete, some very well.
I take your point on the mass-roach, i got carried away
I don't really think that what you are proposing would be fair to many of the korean players who work their hearts out or entertaining to us viewers. think about it this way, a korean B teamer puts in 10 hours a day and doesn't make the cut because the competition is so high in korea, a foreigner with less talent who puts in 8 hours a day does make it because competition is lower from where ever he is from. You drop the overall game play of the tournament, the koreans STILL dominate, and alot of more qualified players are cut because of nationality. I personally would like to see foreigners just start playing better. Can you imagine the carnage stephano would wreck if he would put in 10 hours a day?
On April 10 2012 16:30 Nekovivie wrote: Koreans dominating tournaments... "What to do?"..
What do you mean, 'what to do?'.. would you say the same if it was Americans dominating GSL?
No, but Koreans probably would
I made a mistake saying that part, but still - my point was, Koreans are people too. You can't exclude/handicap them just because they are better players. It's just 'foreigner' players aren't quite up to the cut at the moment. You can't blame the Koreans for that.
On April 10 2012 16:30 Nekovivie wrote: Koreans dominating tournaments... "What to do?"..
What do you mean, 'what to do?'.. would you say the same if it was Americans dominating GSL?
No, but Koreans probably would
I made a mistake saying that part, but still - my point was, Koreans are people too. You can't exclude/handicap them just because they are better players. It's just 'foreigner' players aren't quite up to the cut at the moment. You can't blame the Koreans for that.
Of course not, I agree completely. There should certainly be no exclusion or handicapping. But I see nothing wrong in reserving spots for foreign players in group-play through something like regional qualifiers. Similar spots could be reserved for Korean players. In any case, I prefer tournaments that incorporates an open bracket. I think it makes for a much more unpredictable results and lessens the importance of being a 'known' player. Beautifully demonstrated by Scarlett and Squirtle.
I´d probably agree in that national talent needs breathing room to develop if not for the silly notion of grouping every non Korea country as ¨foreigner¨.
I know it comes from BW where outside of Korea the community was small. But as far as ¨ helping new talent¨ it doesn´t make difference to an American having all the money taken by Europeans than by Koreans.
How about people.... you know do like SEA server did and do national tournies?
As far of who is more entertaining I couldn't care less about nationality.
On April 10 2012 17:04 Azzur wrote: They should do a koreans "off-the-record" tournament with handicaps similar to the GSL show! - Eat cup noodle. - Play with one hand. etc. :p
they will practice this for sure if happened you can't beat them
On April 10 2012 17:04 Azzur wrote: They should do a koreans "off-the-record" tournament with handicaps similar to the GSL show! - Eat cup noodle. - Play with one hand. etc. :p
they will practice this for sure if happened you can't beat them
News Flash: Korean admitted to hospital after eating too many cup noodles!
I think one of the fundamental problems for the Foreigner vs Korean debate is just simply the opportunity to go all the way. \
In the Korean scene, they are given the opportunity to live in a team house, practice with equally motivated people, have a professional coach who knows the game talk about things to improve, and access to the world's hardest ladder. They are given the chance to have an environment where every single overhead that occupies a foreigner's training is taken care of. A maid will clean and cook for the team, they have a team house to sleep in, and they are given (I imagine) enough money to have the occasional movie or meal.
Compare that to the foreigner scene. Minus the top players from established organizations, many of them have to take care of themselves. For many, they require the aid of people outside of their organization to have a place to live, they have to cook food and clean their place, all these small things that remove the opportunity to stay practicing. Some of them have to juggle college or work with their schedule, preventing them from ever reaching their peak.
It's easy then to say "SEND THOSE FOREIGNERS TO KOREA FOR A YEAR, THEY'LL FIGURE IT OUT!!!" However, although the foreigners that we send are now given the chance to focus on the game, very few of them can live in that environment. They are suddenly placed in a completely foreign culture, with very few who speak any english. There is the stress of being so different from everyone, and the sense of loneliness that must come along if you can't find anyone to spend your time with. Recently this has become a lot better with so many foreigners training in Korea (relatively to the past) and many of the Korean teams being very helpful to the foreigners, but one can not deny the stress that comes from being a complete outsider.
So to answer the question, as long as the current environment for foreigners exists, it will be impossible for any to ever consistently beat the Koreans. Foreigners are ultimately limited to the time they can practice, since they will be unable to every commit their full attention to the game simply due to the environment, not because of willpower.
However, as esports grows and teams start to become more serious, I'm confident this will not continue. Teams like Liquid have a very good relationship with oGs, and as such, many of their players have the opportunity to go to train in the almost ideal conditions of Korea. Similarly, EG and fanatic have created team houses for their players, which goals to create a similar environment, and I'm confident that after enough time has been given, these results will show. But most importantly, as the environment improves for foreigners, the hidden talent will have a chance to actually grow, instead of never having the chance to grow.
1. The effort and time they spend compared to foreigners is much, much more 2. The money and sponsorships offered in Korea (and America and Europe) are better than some other places.
For example, esports in Australia isn't that developed (just as an example) - the prizes are too little to encourage full time play, and we don't even have proper local servers that give less than 150ms ping. At the end of the day, if you're playing games for 10+ hours a day for weeks on end, that's your lifestyle - but if you don't have money or a career...
On April 10 2012 16:30 Nekovivie wrote: Koreans dominating tournaments... "What to do?"..
What do you mean, 'what to do?'.. would you say the same if it was Americans dominating GSL?
No, but Koreans probably would
I made a mistake saying that part, but still - my point was, Koreans are people too. You can't exclude/handicap them just because they are better players. It's just 'foreigner' players aren't quite up to the cut at the moment. You can't blame the Koreans for that.
The GSL requires foreigner participants to travel to and live in Korea at their own expense in order to compete in the qualifiers and in the tournament itself; however, GOMTV sets aside a number of paid for foreigner seeds - which in effect is a foreigner quota.
Foreigner tournaments pay for Korean pros to travel and live in foreigner countries in order to compete in foreigner tournaments; however, there are no seeds set aside for Korean pros.
On April 10 2012 07:02 KaptenCulpa wrote: In light of the recent dominance in numbers of Korean players in the top of big international tournament, I thought that we could discuss if and how we should handle this.
By celebrating the better quality of games for us viewers.
In light of the once-a-week thread creation about mystification as to why Koreans show superior tournament results than foreigners, I think we need to discuss why forum-goers are perpetually stumped in this topic. My feeling is that we should only have the best in Starcraft 2 rise to the top and showcase shiny medals. If you want a girl gamer's tournament, the best girl wins. If you want a special olympics tournament, only the best team gaming despite handicaps should win.
Back to your thoughts, and not mine reading thread after thread on why foreigners lag behind and what should be done with that. As a community. With the full force of the best of our good attentions. Imagine if you will, the best from each country duking it out for their country in a tournament. Well, the country that has very good A, B, and C teams can really send their A team and win it. Does anybody remember GSL World Championship? Oh wait, am I saying it already happened?
No, but you say, Danglars, this tournament with 6 from each nation would be different ... foreigners would get farther. They'd get farther than they usually do. Are you talking, like Stephano finally getting a top 12 performance in IPL4? Or maybe a guy like HuK placing top 8 in an MLG? Yeah, limiting the source country sending players will finally get the foreigners we root for into the highest echelons of tournaments.
I hope I drove the point home that foreigners can bloody the top players already. Their consistency across many months of tournaments still lags. And, based on these results, players can still cheer on their favorite player from their own country. I address this to your claim that we NEED this, that we NEED to use a limited-Korean-invite style in order to create role-models in countries when the sport isn't big. Attracting people not into eSports is a very wide topic indeed, but not dependent on having superstars win eSports tournaments, but rather people interested in watching their country's superstar compete in an eSports tournament.
I continue on to your fears that only hardcore fans will like watching if the good money says a Korean will win the tournament. You'd think that after a year, we'd see a huge departure alright, right? Yet, these tournaments are hosting even bigger viewership numbers than when the game first game out and Koreans first started flying to foreigner tournaments. This hand wringing is very absurd. Additionally, you underestimate the ability of fans to root for the underdog, no matter how unfavored he is. Even among two Koreans, there was a clear energy for the underdog Squirtle fighting through the open bracket and loser's to advance to the finals. This wasn't a, "Pack your bags guys, there's only Koreans fighting now!"
No, individual superstars still compel eyes to remain focused on eSports tournaments. Casual fans stick around to see the stories unfold. Not just of their own countrymen, but of Korean athletes. I want to see MC rise again to win something big, and I don't give a damn that he lives an ocean away from me and speaks a different language than me. Casual fans get engrossed in watching the struggle for dominance and fall in love with champions that show surprising plays and masterful strokes.
Until you can bury your fears, I suggest you tune in to "The Executives." Understand where the money comes from for these tournaments and the source for teams to fly players from country to country competing. I'm not saying that the money is the beating heart of the sport, but its at least its legs. Learn some legitimate concerns from team managers and compare that to the next fictitious one dreamed up on the forums. I mean, fears that may be justified in a year or two when the landscape totally changes, but some guy wants to claim they predicted it. Right. They'll be more important reasons then, too.
Foreigner tournaments pay for Korean pros to travel and live in foreigner countries in order to compete in foreigner tournaments; however, there are no seeds set aside for Korean pros.
Actually, foreign tournament only pay for the TOP Korean pros. If you are MC, MMA, Nestea, MVP, etc. Yes, you will be invited to tournaments expenses paid. Other korean pros are either supported by their teams/sponsors or have to pay on their own (players like MKP couldn't afford to go to MLG until reddit sponsors him). Some koreans also get their expenses paid for by qualifying via online qualifiers and such. Tournaments also do this for foreigners as well. And if a foreigner and a korean had the some accomplishments, you would bet the foreigner would get more invites. Hell, if a foreign WON one GSL, he would get invited to EVERY tournament.
Also, GSL is 2 months long compared with a weekend tournament like MLG, IPL so the costs are very different in terms of cost of travel and housing.
Stop acting like it's a problem. They have better players than us, it's just the way it is. Imagine how limited the competition would be if you allowed only 6 koreans and something like 58 foreigners, when you have about that many Koreans left at home who are capable of beating most foreigners.
You can't disallow someone from competing in your event just because they're too good.
While I do understand that TL webforum is quite a "certain type of people" community, there is so ridiculous amound of not called upon fail i just wanted to get in.
First of all, sport is about the SHOW, not determining who has the longest dick. While skill is an integral part of the Show, more skill doesn`t necessary means better show. When about half of matches are predictably Korean terran MMM&drops, you might as well not watch half of the tournament. Simple as that, pick the "best"(the highest in position or whatever criterium) don`t waste time on the else. Obviously this is an example, but you get the drill.
Secondly 95% to 99% will not see the difference between the "code A" and "code S" doing same BO and style of play, while they can very vell notice different styles of play and different BOs. What does it means? Basically that there is no need for 90% of tournament to be super mega pro skilled players for it to be entertaining, on contray, such tournament is less predictable, and thurs more interesting.
That is the thing that is widely seen world-wide. The lesser leagues, i mean every friging european country has 2-3 leagues of football. Strangely, they have enough fans and money to live their life, despite the fact that uniting them into one "mega" league would result in overall "higher skill".
Could continue with other sports, but pretty much all sports have their lowest competitions at inter schools or inter-university levels, with kids/students playing in free of study time, so the argument holds perfectly.
Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
Ever wondered why the for example Football World Cup is much more noticeable and attended event than European Cup, despite the fact that Europeans dominate football, and a part from Argentina and Brazil, pretty much no national team can stand up? Despite the fact that a lot of European underdogs are probably better than some/most of teams from other than Europe/SA region.
So what does this means? It means in an order to survive and develop any sport needs a balance of local and international events, local and international teams, and most importantly content for broad spectre of dedication, and international events should be international, it should be serving to promote and advertise the sport apon broad community.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
Lastly, the ones about "they need to get better" got it upside down. When korea has community, which generates enough revenue to pay large enough number of pro-gamers for a living, In NA/EU, it does not exists, so foreign players can not really dedicate themselves to SC2, because they also have education and work which is not connected to SC2 and takes time from it.
Which again brings down the question of how to build up the international community, and "international tournaments"(coupled with local ones) are a great thing to do, bot only if the "domination of one nation" is impossible, otherwise the entire event serves only as another local competition for that country.
And the words of IPL4 manager pretty much confirms it, IPL4 failed on it`s purpose of an international tournament. Still interesting event, but largely irrelevant.
is there seriously a thread about this? Why not just ban Korea all together... No, the only thing that we can do is get better
Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story.
Exactly. For a brief period HuK was placing high (if not winning) multiple tournaments on the hop and in Code S, like many Korean Code S players. Just a glimpse of foreigners performing on par with top Koreans - it can be done. Concocting ways to weight tournament formats in foreign players favour won't help in the long or short terms.
I didn't see it mentioned yet in this thread but the next Premier event, Dreamhack Stockholm only has three Koreans in the tournament roster right now and they have announced 61 players. Unless the next wave is a ton of Koreans It's looking to be a much more international tournament than IPL.
I think IPL was a one time deal in the number of Korean attendees because of the GSTL finals bringing in 15+ top level Korean players alone to compete in the tournament.
On April 10 2012 12:48 tomatriedes wrote: For those who think this is a terribly offensive and racist idea- Did you know Korean sports leagues put a cap on foreign players on their sports teams? In the professional Korean basketball and baseball leagues they're only allowed two foreign players per team and in soccer four players per team. I guess in Korea the idea of fostering a country's own talent is quite well accepted.
How well are professional Korean basketball and baseball doing?
Baseball is the number one spectator sport in Korea by a large margin. I'm not sure about basketball- it gets decent crowds but doesn't seem to be anywhere near baseball in terms of popularity.
It just strikes me as funny that people are getting all heated up about supposed racism when Koreans do exactly the same thing with their domestic sports leagues.
On April 10 2012 09:17 Dodgin wrote: If the scene never reaches the heights people want it to because of Korean dominance I won't care. I'll be here with the rest of the hardcore fans watching the best games and cheering on my favorite players regardless of which country they come from, just like Brood War.
Foreigners need to stop being lazy and get better if they want to win tournaments. ( example: Incontrol took a 2 month break during the winter holidays and apparently didn't play any games, you call yourself a professional? )
If not that's fine too, I'll just watch the Korean players instead.
Regarding Incontrol, it's his business, but I do see your point. If the Koreans are practicing 12 hours/day, and here we have foreigners who go by a much more "do whatever you want" schedule, then it shouldn't shock us that the winner will be the one who plainly put in the time.
But you gotta realize that Incontrol's role is not the same as IdrA's or Puma's. Incontrol is a personality, the face of EG, the "everyman" that people can relate a little more to, compared to say IdrA. He does the stuff in the background that many of us don't see. If he happens to take some games off of someone, well that's a bonus.
Whereas with Puma and the others, they are expected to earn their keep through winnings, streaming, coaching, any source of revenue they use to pull in income for the team.
Think about Anna's role. It's a very different one as well. Long story short everyone on the EG team has their assigned roles and responsiblities not unlike any professional business. It's just easy to get sidetracked when you see that they live in a house together and you see them in home clothes.
On April 10 2012 09:17 Dodgin wrote: If the scene never reaches the heights people want it to because of Korean dominance I won't care. I'll be here with the rest of the hardcore fans watching the best games and cheering on my favorite players regardless of which country they come from, just like Brood War.
Foreigners need to stop being lazy and get better if they want to win tournaments. ( example: Incontrol took a 2 month break during the winter holidays and apparently didn't play any games, you call yourself a professional? )
If not that's fine too, I'll just watch the Korean players instead.
Regarding Incontrol, it's his business, but I do see your point. If the Koreans are practicing 12 hours/day, and here we have foreigners who go by a much more "do whatever you want" schedule, then it shouldn't shock us that the winner will be the one who plainly put in the time.
But you gotta realize that Incontrol's role is not the same as IdrA's or Puma's. Incontrol is a personality, the face of EG, the "everyman" that people can relate a little more to, compared to say IdrA. He does the stuff in the background that many of us don't see. If he happens to take some games off of someone, well that's a bonus.
Whereas with Puma and the others, they are expected to earn their keep through winnings, streaming, coaching, any source of revenue they use to pull in income for the team.
Think about Anna's role. It's a very different one as well. Long story short everyone on the EG team has their assigned roles and responsiblities not unlike any professional business. It's just easy to get sidetracked when you see that they live in a house together and you see them in home clothes.
I wasn't hating on EG, It's just a quick example I could remember to compare work ethic. I understand your points about the value of Incontrol and what his role is in the team and agree, don't worry about that
We should ban the Koreans imo. I didn't see any flak from the community when TSL2 banned the Koreans and Chinese from participating.
As much as foreigners are getting paid and salaried, they are still amateurs by skill since they don't have concentrated team house training environment (even the renowned EG lair and the TLO Swedish house from what I've esen). Wouldn't it be unfair for the up and coming players if Flash and Jaedong go to PC bangs and just sweep all the amateur tournaments?
The thing is that RTS gaming is no longer mainstream in the west and we will never seen Korean style trainings there, SC2 is just another cash cow for ex-RTS gamers from War3 and Broodwar to make a living. When's the last time you saw an up and coming foreigner player who's neither a well-established ex-war3 / Broodwar pro? Hell even Korea managed to produce players like Maru and Creator despite being a much smaller country.
People have to accept the reality that despite how good of a game SC2 is, it won't be accepted by the softcore mainstream community. FPS and MOBA are the future of western e-sports. If LoL is starting to surpass Broodwar even in Korea, what makes you think will happen western world?
The best way to deal with this is stopping to be a racist and start rooting for players based on their personalities or skill or looks instead of their race.
On April 10 2012 18:04 naastyOne wrote: Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
This part really made me laugh... i think almost noone praises HD anymore since beta while a ton of people (including high level) like Husky :p
On the rest of your post... You look like you haven't followed the SC2 scene very closely. Most casual people (like me) can discern the skill of people like Stephano,Polt,MMA or MKP from people like CoCa,Top,Bomber or Clide. While the first are awesome to watch in their games due to their incredible skill, the Code A people are just not that interesting to watch because all games look basically the same.
(I know i put Stephano into the Code S group eventhough he is not - but he should be :p)
Yes, the Show is important, that is why so many people love MC eventhough he doesn't always show the best results, but the best show comes from seeing exciting games (for example Stephano vs Polt at LSC and MLG was a great show _because_ both players have incredible skill).
As for the football world cup having more viewers than EU football cup... well, thats mostly a matter of advertising.
On April 10 2012 18:33 blackone wrote: The best way to deal with this is stopping to be a racist and start rooting for players based on their personalities or skill or looks instead of their race.
On April 10 2012 18:01 Nyctophobia wrote: You can't disallow someone from competing in your event just because they're too good.
False logic.
Not every tournament should be yet another "determine who is the best player in the world". Those kinds are well covered already.
What? Do you think people want to watch an event full of the less notable players? I mean, we could go watch high masters online cups all day, if you really think that's gonna work. Besides... I've never really seen the large events as a "determine who is the best player in the world" kind of thing, as you put it, because that title has too much weight to throw around based on a single event.
It's simple, as long as foreign players don't wish to give up everything to play, live and breathe SC2, they wont ever be able to "dominate" as you say.
I like to see top Starcraft Games. I like to see DRG, MKP, NesTea and so on. But what i enjoy most is watching a foreign underdog challenging those big ones to maybe achieve a wonder. What makes me sad is, that foreigners seem to get worse, and koreans seem to get better and better, like the gap increasing.
On April 10 2012 18:04 naastyOne wrote: Hello everyone,
While I do understand that TL webforum is quite a "certain type of people" community, there is so ridiculous amound of not called upon fail i just wanted to get in.
First of all, sport is about the SHOW, not determining who has the longest dick. While skill is an integral part of the Show, more skill doesn`t necessary means better show. When about half of matches are predictably Korean terran MMM&drops, you might as well not watch half of the tournament. Simple as that, pick the "best"(the highest in position or whatever criterium) don`t waste time on the else. Obviously this is an example, but you get the drill.
Secondly 95% to 99% will not see the difference between the "code A" and "code S" doing same BO and style of play, while they can very vell notice different styles of play and different BOs. What does it means? Basically that there is no need for 90% of tournament to be super mega pro skilled players for it to be entertaining, on contray, such tournament is less predictable, and thurs more interesting.
That is the thing that is widely seen world-wide. The lesser leagues, i mean every friging european country has 2-3 leagues of football. Strangely, they have enough fans and money to live their life, despite the fact that uniting them into one "mega" league would result in overall "higher skill".
Could continue with other sports, but pretty much all sports have their lowest competitions at inter schools or inter-university levels, with kids/students playing in free of study time, so the argument holds perfectly.
Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
Ever wondered why the for example Football World Cup is much more noticeable and attended event than European Cup, despite the fact that Europeans dominate football, and a part from Argentina and Brazil, pretty much no national team can stand up? Despite the fact that a lot of European underdogs are probably better than some/most of teams from other than Europe/SA region.
So what does this means? It means in an order to survive and develop any sport needs a balance of local and international events, local and international teams, and most importantly content for broad spectre of dedication, and international events should be international, it should be serving to promote and advertise the sport apon broad community.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
Lastly, the ones about "they need to get better" got it upside down. When korea has community, which generates enough revenue to pay large enough number of pro-gamers for a living, In NA/EU, it does not exists, so foreign players can not really dedicate themselves to SC2, because they also have education and work which is not connected to SC2 and takes time from it.
Which again brings down the question of how to build up the international community, and "international tournaments"(coupled with local ones) are a great thing to do, bot only if the "domination of one nation" is impossible, otherwise the entire event serves only as another local competition for that country.
And the words of IPL4 manager pretty much confirms it, IPL4 failed on it`s purpose of an international tournament. Still interesting event, but largely irrelevant.
I agree. While some may argue that Nationalistic pride should not play a role in the support of E-Sports and that support should be gained on merit. Not based on where your born or what race you are. But I honestly just lose interest as soon as there are no foreigners left in a tournament. I just turn it off. For example, when Stephano got knocked out of IPL 4, I lost interest immediately. Turned off the stream and never looked back.
Personally, not even I completely understand why this is the case. But if I were to guess it would be that I find it hard to relate to Koreans, the language barrier makes it difficult to fully appreciate their back-stories (except for the prominent figures MC, Nesta, MMA etc) thus some form of alienation occurs because to me that's one of the fundamental entertainment factors of E-sports. Also I can never really understand Korean demeanour/body language/facial expressions. Obviously this is because they grew up in a different culture on the other side of the planet, so it's just lack of knowledge on my part. But I hate the feeling of "lost in translation" I get just trying to read their faces and movements and not being able to discern all the information I usually can with people of similar cultural conditioning to me.
This might be considered inappropriate to say considering how politically correct the world is becoming with people dismissing Nationalistic values as unnecessary and irrelevant in today's globalist world. But the tournaments I have enjoyed the most are the ones in which Swedish people win. I just LIKE knowing that Thorzain for example walked the same soil, speaks the same language went through similar cultural experiences etc. Because it confirms to me that we Swedish people (people from my area of residence, thus same race) are not inferior. We can compete with the best of the best and there is a certain level of comfort in that knowledge. Not to mention Pride, which surely also comes into play. Shamefully, for I know the "Us vs Them" mentality is doing nothing but damage the planet and human race as a whole.
"The old appeals to racial, sexual and religious chauvinism and to rabid nationalism are beginning not to work. A new consciousness is developing which sees the earth as a single organism and recognizes that an organism at war with itself is doomed. We are one planet." - Carl Sagan
whoah really went off on a tangent here. But I reckon it's relevant at the really core levels of what the OP is saying.
Actually all my favourite players to watch, besides Huk & White-Ra, are koreans. I hated them initially, i thought 'they're all cocky, thinking they are better just because they're asians, i'll sooner die then cheer for them'...but after some time i grow up and realized the level of skill they posses, the true passion and dedication for the game they represent which most foreigners seem to lack...
They just don't whine about balance. If they lose, they never say 'this game is shit'. They just practice harder.
I am not surprised at all that koreans mostly dominate. Only foreigners with a dedication close to theirs can consistently take matches from them, like Huk, which as far as i remember never complained about balance. Players like Idra, who as far as i remember never claimed the game to be balanced, is 0-4 in almost all tournaments he takes part in. That's only an example, but it shows You the differencee between a korean mindset (Huk) and foreign's one.
And regarding to the OP - Koreans do the SHOW. The most exciting games You can see are those from Korean players, solely because the level of skill they have. How do You want the international tournaments to be exciting, when sometimes foreigners get killed by koreans so badly that it's just sad to watch? How do You want foreigners-only tournaments to be exciting, when after watching koreans play, foreigner's games seem to be played in slow-motion?
It's only foreigners fault. Dividing the scene because of their lack of dedication/passion will lead to the same as Brood War. Korea will be the only place where real starcraft is played, foreigners will be like bronze players, nobody will care. So, they need to step the f*** up and stop complaining once and forever.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
We have them. Like ONOG had no Koreans Shoutcraft had no Koreans. So if you want more of those go and support them.Tell others how great they are and that they should watch them.
The fans need to not reward mediocre players by watching their streams, supporting their sponsors, and hyping their events. The best players are not the highest paid players, not even close. There is not enough incentive to become the best, being entertaining is far more rewarding.
On April 10 2012 18:33 blackone wrote: The best way to deal with this is stopping to be a racist and start rooting for players based on their personalities or skill or looks instead of their race.
Okay, how many of the Korean players even bothered opening their personality to outsiders?
On April 10 2012 18:04 naastyOne wrote: Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
This part really made me laugh... i think almost noone praises HD anymore since beta while a ton of people (including high level) like Husky :p
Well i saw something some were on TL website pretty resent, or i don`t know, but you are right that i`m not that much into the "pro" opinions about casters.
On April 10 2012 18:36 Morfildur wrote: On the rest of your post... You look like you haven't followed the SC2 scene very closely. Most casual people (like me) can discern the skill of people like Stephano,Polt,MMA or MKP from people like CoCa,Top,Bomber or Clide. While the first are awesome to watch in their games due to their incredible skill, the Code A people are just not that interesting to watch because all games look basically the same.
(I know i put Stephano into the Code S group eventhough he is not - but he should be :p)
Yes, the Show is important, that is why so many people love MC eventhough he doesn't always show the best results, but the best show comes from seeing exciting games (for example Stephano vs Polt at LSC and MLG was a great show _because_ both players have incredible skill).
As for the football world cup having more viewers than EU football cup... well, thats mostly a matter of advertising.
Well i follow it up pretty closely for ~5 months.
What i generally mean is that the game doesn`t necesery have to have 2 top players in the world to be interesting, just 2 persons with decent skill and fairly even play.
Again skill is not personality for me, there is skill, and play style, for example White-Ra has awsome play-style but his skill is not the best in the world. Or Spanishuwa, and his no gas for a while zerg, or, if both players play MMM&drops their play style is same , while skill(micro, macro, map awerenes, ex) may differ. Again the game has to be exiting, and skill is not the only factor, actually may be the least important factor in determining how exiting the game is. It is about emotions, "strange" moves, and special tactics, unpredictability, and so on, not the how well you micro your bio ball(ofc bio-ball is just an example, but Korean-terran, well you probably get why i put it in)
Even if Football WC has more viewers due to advertisement only, which i don`t believe, it still kinda proves that the "skill" is not the only deciding factor.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
We have them. Like ONOG had no Koreans Shoutcraft had no Koreans. So if you want more of those go and support them.Tell others how great they are and that they should watch them.
How did you came up with the idea that i don`t? And why so much hate?
On April 10 2012 17:06 windsupernova wrote: I´d probably agree in that national talent needs breathing room to develop if not for the silly notion of grouping every non Korea country as ¨foreigner¨.
I know it comes from BW where outside of Korea the community was small. But as far as ¨ helping new talent¨ it doesn´t make difference to an American having all the money taken by Europeans than by Koreans.
How about people.... you know do like SEA server did and do national tournies?
As far of who is more entertaining I couldn't care less about nationality.
SEA server runs a lot of SEA-only leagues because our events are so small we'd hardly attract the attention of KR/NA players. Except for pure online events, which we do allow on occasion (the SEASL2 NA qualifiers, Dox cup 2 and presumably 3 and the occasional match against Taiwan) although not all the time because KR would demolish us if we did.
There's nothing wrong with national tournies or a strong focus on a more insular e-sports focus as long as that region can support itself. Look at Taiwan, they have a really strong scene and they only ever (Sen)d one player around and have no players come into their leagues and they're fine. Europe also seems to manage quite well with their mostly Euro focus. I'm curious if the same can be said of North America though, not really sure.
Oh, and as to why Koreans are better then everyone else, they practice smarter and harder and overall better then everyone else. Their team house and coach infrastructure kicks the shit out of everyone else, and tons of these players came from strong Broodwar backgrounds so their mechanics are sharper then foreigners.
On April 10 2012 19:04 Daitakk wrote: The gamers need to play harder.
The fans need to not reward mediocre players by watching their streams, supporting their sponsors, and hyping their events. The best players are not the highest paid players, not even close. There is not enough incentive to become the best, being entertaining is far more rewarding.
People pay for entertaining them. ALL sport is either for self-perfection &/or earning money. Processional sport is entertaiment industry no less than movies or music.
Foreigners get rolled all the time because they suck balls in comparison to koreans. How 'bout they stop the partying, drinking, etc and they begin practicing 10 hours a day? Oh, wait.. better restrict koreans from tourneys and lower the skill level so foreign players can do better with the same low ass skill. Your logic would fit nicely into Blizzard's game balance team
On April 10 2012 18:04 naastyOne wrote: Hello everyone,
While I do understand that TL webforum is quite a "certain type of people" community, there is so ridiculous amound of not called upon fail i just wanted to get in.
First of all, sport is about the SHOW, not determining who has the longest dick. While skill is an integral part of the Show, more skill doesn`t necessary means better show. When about half of matches are predictably Korean terran MMM&drops, you might as well not watch half of the tournament. Simple as that, pick the "best"(the highest in position or whatever criterium) don`t waste time on the else. Obviously this is an example, but you get the drill.
Secondly 95% to 99% will not see the difference between the "code A" and "code S" doing same BO and style of play, while they can very vell notice different styles of play and different BOs. What does it means? Basically that there is no need for 90% of tournament to be super mega pro skilled players for it to be entertaining, on contray, such tournament is less predictable, and thurs more interesting.
That is the thing that is widely seen world-wide. The lesser leagues, i mean every friging european country has 2-3 leagues of football. Strangely, they have enough fans and money to live their life, despite the fact that uniting them into one "mega" league would result in overall "higher skill".
Could continue with other sports, but pretty much all sports have their lowest competitions at inter schools or inter-university levels, with kids/students playing in free of study time, so the argument holds perfectly.
Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
Ever wondered why the for example Football World Cup is much more noticeable and attended event than European Cup, despite the fact that Europeans dominate football, and a part from Argentina and Brazil, pretty much no national team can stand up? Despite the fact that a lot of European underdogs are probably better than some/most of teams from other than Europe/SA region.
So what does this means? It means in an order to survive and develop any sport needs a balance of local and international events, local and international teams, and most importantly content for broad spectre of dedication, and international events should be international, it should be serving to promote and advertise the sport apon broad community.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
Lastly, the ones about "they need to get better" got it upside down. When korea has community, which generates enough revenue to pay large enough number of pro-gamers for a living, In NA/EU, it does not exists, so foreign players can not really dedicate themselves to SC2, because they also have education and work which is not connected to SC2 and takes time from it.
Which again brings down the question of how to build up the international community, and "international tournaments"(coupled with local ones) are a great thing to do, bot only if the "domination of one nation" is impossible, otherwise the entire event serves only as another local competition for that country.
And the words of IPL4 manager pretty much confirms it, IPL4 failed on it`s purpose of an international tournament. Still interesting event, but largely irrelevant.
I agree. While some may argue that Nationalistic pride should not play a role in the support of E-Sports and that support should be gained on merit. Not based on where your born or what race you are. But I honestly just lose interest as soon as there are no foreigners left in a tournament. I just turn it off. For example, when Stephano got knocked out of IPL 4, I lost interest immediately. Turned off the stream and never looked back.
Personally, not even I completely understand why this is the case. But if I were to guess it would be that I find it hard to relate to Koreans, the language barrier makes it difficult to fully appreciate their back-stories (except for the prominent figures MC, Nesta, MMA etc) thus some form of alienation occurs because to me that's one of the fundamental entertainment factors of E-sports. Also I can never really understand Korean demeanour/body language/facial expressions. Obviously this is because they grew up in a different culture on the other side of the planet, so it's just lack of knowledge on my part. But I hate the feeling of "lost in translation" I get just trying to read their faces and movements and not being able to discern all the information I usually can with people of similar cultural conditioning to me.
This might be considered inappropriate to say considering how politically correct the world is becoming with people dismissing Nationalistic values as unnecessary and irrelevant in today's globalist world. But the tournaments I have enjoyed the most are the ones in which Swedish people win. I just LIKE knowing that Thorzain for example walked the same soil, speaks the same language went through similar cultural experiences etc. Because it confirms to me that we Swedish people (people from my area of residence, thus same race) are not inferior. We can compete with the best of the best and there is a certain level of comfort in that knowledge. Not to mention Pride, which surely also comes into play. Shamefully, for I know the "Us vs Them" mentality is doing nothing but damage the planet and human race as a whole.
"The old appeals to racial, sexual and religious chauvinism and to rabid nationalism are beginning not to work. A new consciousness is developing which sees the earth as a single organism and recognizes that an organism at war with itself is doomed. We are one planet." - Carl Sagan
whoah really went off on a tangent here. But I reckon it's relevant at the really core levels of what the OP is saying.
But you can't argue that your attitude of "turning off the TV" when the last foreigner hope didn't make it, is a bit selfish and maybe slightly controversial which I won't be accusing you of. You know what I'm referring to, I'm not gonna say it.
People like you are not appreciating the fact that the Koreans and foreigners have been working together - to mix Korean and Foreigners together - look at Nada, Ganzi, MC...the list just keeps going on and on. These guys left their Korean teams to merge with a Foreigner team. In fact they represent the team. Do you get it?
Your attitude I've even see happen with this other guy on one State of the Game. I don't remember his name, but he too completely lost interest in one of the MLG's when the last foreigner was knocked out. He admitted it himself "...no, I didn't bother watching the rest.." that was immensely, seriously dissapointing to me to see that a guy like that would only be interested as long as Koreans didn't win.
This is no longer nationalistic pride. It smells of something a lot darker and uglier.
On April 10 2012 18:04 naastyOne wrote: Hello everyone,
While I do understand that TL webforum is quite a "certain type of people" community, there is so ridiculous amound of not called upon fail i just wanted to get in.
First of all, sport is about the SHOW, not determining who has the longest dick. While skill is an integral part of the Show, more skill doesn`t necessary means better show. When about half of matches are predictably Korean terran MMM&drops, you might as well not watch half of the tournament. Simple as that, pick the "best"(the highest in position or whatever criterium) don`t waste time on the else. Obviously this is an example, but you get the drill.
Secondly 95% to 99% will not see the difference between the "code A" and "code S" doing same BO and style of play, while they can very vell notice different styles of play and different BOs. What does it means? Basically that there is no need for 90% of tournament to be super mega pro skilled players for it to be entertaining, on contray, such tournament is less predictable, and thurs more interesting.
That is the thing that is widely seen world-wide. The lesser leagues, i mean every friging european country has 2-3 leagues of football. Strangely, they have enough fans and money to live their life, despite the fact that uniting them into one "mega" league would result in overall "higher skill".
Could continue with other sports, but pretty much all sports have their lowest competitions at inter schools or inter-university levels, with kids/students playing in free of study time, so the argument holds perfectly.
Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
Ever wondered why the for example Football World Cup is much more noticeable and attended event than European Cup, despite the fact that Europeans dominate football, and a part from Argentina and Brazil, pretty much no national team can stand up? Despite the fact that a lot of European underdogs are probably better than some/most of teams from other than Europe/SA region.
So what does this means? It means in an order to survive and develop any sport needs a balance of local and international events, local and international teams, and most importantly content for broad spectre of dedication, and international events should be international, it should be serving to promote and advertise the sport apon broad community.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
Lastly, the ones about "they need to get better" got it upside down. When korea has community, which generates enough revenue to pay large enough number of pro-gamers for a living, In NA/EU, it does not exists, so foreign players can not really dedicate themselves to SC2, because they also have education and work which is not connected to SC2 and takes time from it.
Which again brings down the question of how to build up the international community, and "international tournaments"(coupled with local ones) are a great thing to do, bot only if the "domination of one nation" is impossible, otherwise the entire event serves only as another local competition for that country.
And the words of IPL4 manager pretty much confirms it, IPL4 failed on it`s purpose of an international tournament. Still interesting event, but largely irrelevant.
I agree. While some may argue that Nationalistic pride should not play a role in the support of E-Sports and that support should be gained on merit. Not based on where your born or what race you are. But I honestly just lose interest as soon as there are no foreigners left in a tournament. I just turn it off. For example, when Stephano got knocked out of IPL 4, I lost interest immediately. Turned off the stream and never looked back.
Personally, not even I completely understand why this is the case. But if I were to guess it would be that I find it hard to relate to Koreans, the language barrier makes it difficult to fully appreciate their back-stories (except for the prominent figures MC, Nesta, MMA etc) thus some form of alienation occurs because to me that's one of the fundamental entertainment factors of E-sports. Also I can never really understand Korean demeanour/body language/facial expressions. Obviously this is because they grew up in a different culture on the other side of the planet, so it's just lack of knowledge on my part. But I hate the feeling of "lost in translation" I get just trying to read their faces and movements and not being able to discern all the information I usually can with people of similar cultural conditioning to me.
This might be considered inappropriate to say considering how politically correct the world is becoming with people dismissing Nationalistic values as unnecessary and irrelevant in today's globalist world. But the tournaments I have enjoyed the most are the ones in which Swedish people win. I just LIKE knowing that Thorzain for example walked the same soil, speaks the same language went through similar cultural experiences etc. Because it confirms to me that we Swedish people (people from my area of residence, thus same race) are not inferior. We can compete with the best of the best and there is a certain level of comfort in that knowledge. Not to mention Pride, which surely also comes into play. Shamefully, for I know the "Us vs Them" mentality is doing nothing but damage the planet and human race as a whole.
"The old appeals to racial, sexual and religious chauvinism and to rabid nationalism are beginning not to work. A new consciousness is developing which sees the earth as a single organism and recognizes that an organism at war with itself is doomed. We are one planet." - Carl Sagan
whoah really went off on a tangent here. But I reckon it's relevant at the really core levels of what the OP is saying.
But you can't argue that your attitude of "turning off the TV" when the last foreigner hope didn't make it, is a bit selfish and maybe slightly controversial which I won't be accusing you of. You know what I'm referring to, I'm not gonna say it.
People like you are not appreciating the fact that the Koreans and foreigners have been working together - to mix Korean and Foreigners together - look at Nada, Ganzi, MC...the list just keeps going on and on. These guys left their Korean teams to merge with a Foreigner team. In fact they represent the team. Do you get it?
Your attitude I've even see happen with this other guy on one State of the Game. I don't remember his name, but he too completely lost interest in one of the MLG's when the last foreigner was knocked out. He admitted it himself "...no, I didn't bother watching the rest.." that was immensely, seriously dissapointing to me to see that a guy like that would only be interested as long as Koreans didn't win.
This is no longer nationalistic pride. It smells of something a lot darker and uglier.
It smells of people rooting for underdogs... how dare they!
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
We have them. Like ONOG had no Koreans Shoutcraft had no Koreans. So if you want more of those go and support them.Tell others how great they are and that they should watch them.
How did you came up with the idea that i don`t? And why so much hate?
Didn't want to target you. But it is a bit funny if people complain about to many koreans at IPL when on the same weekend there are 2 other tournaments with only foreigners attending. Also IEM uses a continental qualifier system. I think its a good system but if you go to IEM thread you will often see complains about the lack of Korean talent. Also one point. The reason for the amount of Koreans on this IPL is probably the GSTL Finals and that IPL paid for the teams. I don't think we would see the same amount of Koreans if the had to pay like the western teams.
I tink the problem is the skill-entertainment rate, which optimally should be 50-50 or 60-40 in favor of skill. MC, Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, Marineking are almost equally skilled and entertaining. They're successful as fuck. Nestea and MVP are less entertaining but they are(were) insanely skilled, that was enough to be loved by the masses. There are tons of koreans, like alive who are not entertaining at all. They go in the booth, win their games and leave and being socially awkward in between. This isn't good either. They don't even attempt to please the crowd (of course not, they think being a progamer in SC2 means, you have to play good, but in the foreign world, that's not enough nowadays). On the other side there are the foreigners like incontrol, TLO who are good entertainers, but bad players (yes, they're bad compared to the above mentioned). This is good for some foreigners, because they love them, but bad for koreans, and to the ones who love to see competition. And then there are the ones who are bad players and have absolutely no character, but let's forget about them for now.
In conclusion, koreans should thrive to maintain their skill but become more known among the foreigners by interacting with them (like Dragon did), but other than that, they generally have the necessary skill to be a successful progamer. Most of the foreigners should try to become better and if they're relatively unknown, they should try to gain fame somehow.
On April 10 2012 07:06 yawnoC wrote: Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story.
So much this, it has been that way since forever, I'm actually surprised it took so long. If you would pick the 200 best koreans and 200 best foreigners the top 200 would probably be atleast 2/3 korean, probably a lot more.
This is no longer nationalistic pride. It smells of something a lot darker and uglier.
I'm recognising it as a problem though. So I don't really appreciate your ominous conclusion. I was merely trying to express my opinion in the hopes of gaining positive feedback so as to aid in increasing my level of understanding beyond it's current narrow confines. So that I can continue to enjoy E-sports even when it is majorly dominated by Koreans (unless the current trend reverses).
Er. Excepting clear cases of superiority (which are rare) there's not actually that big a difference. In the few representative tournaments where foreigners have been seeded ahead of Koreans (without fighting through the absurdly unlimited open brackets) said foreigners have produced pretty convincing victories.
However all this talk of Korean dominance when MLG has around a 60-70% Korean attendance and multiple S class players are placed in the open bracket (while half of the top foreigners are playing in Europe at the time) for whom half of their games are against BYOC ladder heroes... It's not exactly convincing, especially in single elimination brackets.
There are also certain foreigners who at their best are capable of utterly dominating even the best Koreans but whose skill level fluctuates rabidly (Naniwa, Thorzain, I'm looking at you).
So no. The skill gap isn't particularly big. There are very few games I've seen between top Koreans and top foreigners (note, not crowd favourites, I mean the genuine top teir players like Thorzain) where it has been completely one sided.
For the record, however, I love skilled players winning and am happy as long as the best player wins. MKP is fantastic to watch, but I just think that the foreign community is largely self defeating on how it approaches the so called "skill gap". It's certainly not appreciable enough that I can name more than maybe 10 or 15 Koreans that can guarantee (yes, guarantee) a win against ALL of the top foreigners in every single matchup.
On April 10 2012 19:28 Kabras wrote: Foreigners get rolled all the time because they suck balls in comparison to koreans. How 'bout they stop the partying, drinking, etc and they begin practicing 10 hours a day? Oh, wait.. better restrict koreans from tourneys and lower the skill level so foreign players can do better with the same low ass skill. Your logic would fit nicely into Blizzard's game balance team
How about you stop living you life and work 10hours/day? follow your own advices? Oh, WAIT you won`t have time to complain about whinking "foreiners" on the forum :lol:
What is wrong with people willing to see more different players participate tournaments? What is this, rasism towards non-Korean perhaps?
Why do you hate Blizzard balancing, they nerfed you favourite race, and you`re too busy training too even think about switching over?
Why would Korean skill be affected anyhow by any tournament in which they do not participate, and it is outside Korea? Aren`t they training as much as physically possible already and travelling and stress deprives them from the ability to practice,..
In general please less rasism and fanboyinsm please, and at least try to think your argument somewhat, okay?
On April 10 2012 18:56 Kiichol wrote: I agree. While some may argue that Nationalistic pride should not play a role in the support of E-Sports and that support should be gained on merit. Not based on where your born or what race you are. But I honestly just lose interest as soon as there are no foreigners left in a tournament. I just turn it off. For example, when Stephano got knocked out of IPL 4, I lost interest immediately. Turned off the stream and never looked back.
Well National culture is always part of the person, no meter what BS people say.
I`m Ukrainian who studies in Taiwan for 3 years, no race problems here, and i have some chinese friends,..
But, It is much easier to be conected to somebody that is speaking language you understand in interwieve/streams(english) has same voice every time. Korean Players, on the other hand do not speak english in intervievs in general, they love the freaking abreviation nicknames, MMA, MKP, MC, blah, blah, and our acces to their play is generally thrugh casters anyway, so...
And this problem woldn`t be bad if there was few Koreans, say Sqirtle, MKP and Nestea, so each differen race and style, woldbn be easy to keep track, but a croud of random Koreans doesn`t have a lot of personality, so unless you`re invested in one of them yourself, you just get the Korean #idonotcarewhy won the tournament. Kinda simple, and sad.
I don't see this as a problem at all. My favorite player is Foxer, so I always cheer for him, even vs all foreigners.
I also like a number of other korean pros, so for me a tournament such as IPL was extremely interesting. I couldn't care less about foreigners who stand no chance vs koreans. The only entertainment in watching that is laughing at how the Koreans can win by doing almost anything they want. (Foxer vs WhiteRa triple reactor hellion build anyone?)
Have teams (not just players) go over to Korea and study the Korean playing enviroment/routine. Take that work ethic for Starcraft 2 and bring it back to NA/Europe/wherever the team house is and make a carbon copy of it. Foreign players need to get better and getting better is putting in more practice and practice against GOOD players.
Remember when MC got knocked down to Code B and everyone was in a panic? He dropped down because he walked away from practice to participate in all the foreign tournaments, got back to Korea to find that he was leagues behind. '
My point is though that foreigners just need to get better. Send teams/team managers over to Korea and have them study these Korean teams that have some of the best players in the world. Write a handbook on how to have a successful and dominate team/team house and go from there. If teams can do this, the foreign scene will start to look a hell of a lot stronger.
And practice makes perfect. If you think you've practiced enough, practice a little more. And practice against someone with equal to more experience than you. You'll learn a lot. Though teams have been taking a small step forward in doing this by signing Korean players to their team.
On April 10 2012 19:28 Kabras wrote: Foreigners get rolled all the time because they suck balls in comparison to koreans. How 'bout they stop the partying, drinking, etc and they begin practicing 10 hours a day? Oh, wait.. better restrict koreans from tourneys and lower the skill level so foreign players can do better with the same low ass skill. Your logic would fit nicely into Blizzard's game balance team
How about you stop living you life and work 10hours/day? follow your own advices? Oh, WAIT you won`t have time to complain about whinking "foreiners" on the forum :lol:
What is wrong with people willing to see more different players participate tournaments? What is this, rasism towards non-Korean perhaps?
Why do you hate Blizzard balancing, they nerfed you favourite race, and you`re too busy training too even think about switching over?
Why would Korean skill be affected anyhow by any tournament in which they do not participate, and it is outside Korea? Aren`t they training as much as physically possible already and travelling and stress deprives them from the ability to practice,..
In general please less rasism and fanboyinsm please, and at least try to think your argument somewhat, okay?
On April 10 2012 18:56 Kiichol wrote: I agree. While some may argue that Nationalistic pride should not play a role in the support of E-Sports and that support should be gained on merit. Not based on where your born or what race you are. But I honestly just lose interest as soon as there are no foreigners left in a tournament. I just turn it off. For example, when Stephano got knocked out of IPL 4, I lost interest immediately. Turned off the stream and never looked back.
Well National culture is always part of the person, no meter what BS people say.
I`m Ukrainian who studies in Taiwan for 3 years, no race problems here, and i have some chinese friends,..
But, It is much easier to be conected to somebody that is speaking language you understand in interwieve/streams(english) has same voice every time. Korean Players, on the other hand do not speak english in intervievs in general, they love the freaking abreviation nicknames, MMA, MKP, MC, blah, blah, and our acces to their play is generally thrugh casters anyway, so...
And this problem woldn`t be bad if there was few Koreans, say Sqirtle, MKP and Nestea, so each differen race and style, woldbn be easy to keep track, but a croud of random Koreans doesn`t have a lot of personality, so unless you`re invested in one of them yourself, you just get the Korean #idonotcarewhy won the tournament. Kinda simple, and sad.
Funny, I feel the same way in most foreigner only tournaments, except the generic Koreans are now replaced with generic Europeans.
To add a bit more content to this post, it seems like you just follow the European scene more closely and as such know the players better. I mean you list names like MMA, MKP, MC as if anyone didn't know who they are because of abbreviations?
What I mean is I have a few favourite players. Some of them are Koreans and some aren't. Aside from these guys, most of the other players are all pretty generic to me, Korean or not. I would imagine most people feel the same way.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
We have them. Like ONOG had no Koreans Shoutcraft had no Koreans. So if you want more of those go and support them.Tell others how great they are and that they should watch them.
How did you came up with the idea that i don`t? And why so much hate?
Didn't want to target you. But it is a bit funny if people complain about to many koreans at IPL when on the same weekend there are 2 other tournaments with only foreigners attending. Also IEM uses a continental qualifier system. I think its a good system but if you go to IEM thread you will often see complains about the lack of Korean talent. Also one point. The reason for the amount of Koreans on this IPL is probably the GSTL Finals and that IPL paid for the teams. I don't think we would see the same amount of Koreans if the had to pay like the western teams.
Well, you probably noted i didn`t complain about a lot of Koreans, i mostly complained about the abundance of Terran, and a little bit lack of terran creativeness,( well okay MarineKingPrime`s 3*reactored factory was way better than usual MMM, still only one game,) in IPL a lot, pretty much not at all, just said it was not the type of event a lot of people in NA anticipated, after all it is in Las-Vegas.
If the future for the Western SC2 scene is to have tournaments of Koreans competing exclusively against each other then the Western SC2 scene has no future. There needs to be a stronger foreign presence during the latter stages of tournaments or the game will die.
On April 10 2012 20:06 cuppatea wrote: If the future for the Western SC2 scene is to have tournaments of Koreans competing exclusively against each other then the Western SC2 scene has no future. There needs to be a stronger foreign presence during the latter stages of tournaments or the game will die.
Well, at the pace SC2 is going in Korea, it'll probably go the way of WC3 where all the Koreans either quit or leave Korea, leaving only the foreigner scene.
Remember McLovin...i am once in the future going to be the best Sc 2 player...like Flash was in Brood war, just that i am a foreigner, a german guy. i am going to dominate the Sc 2 scene in a few years, i have enough time to get better!
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
We have them. Like ONOG had no Koreans Shoutcraft had no Koreans. So if you want more of those go and support them.Tell others how great they are and that they should watch them.
How did you came up with the idea that i don`t? And why so much hate?
Didn't want to target you. But it is a bit funny if people complain about to many koreans at IPL when on the same weekend there are 2 other tournaments with only foreigners attending. Also IEM uses a continental qualifier system. I think its a good system but if you go to IEM thread you will often see complains about the lack of Korean talent. Also one point. The reason for the amount of Koreans on this IPL is probably the GSTL Finals and that IPL paid for the teams. I don't think we would see the same amount of Koreans if the had to pay like the western teams.
Well, you probably noted i didn`t complain about a lot of Koreans, i mostly complained about the abundance of Terran, and a little bit lack of terran creativeness,( well okay MarineKingPrime`s 3*reactored factory was way better than usual MMM, still only one game,) in IPL a lot, pretty much not at all, just said it was not the type of event a lot of people in NA anticipated, after all it is in Las-Vegas.
Well you can't plan exititing matches and storylines. Sometimes you just have luck like in IPL 3 and you see a new player rise like Stephano and sometimes not. That just the game. I also enjoyed IPL 3 more because of their casting duos. DJWheat and Apollo were so great. But IPL 4 had the worst casting duos of all the major tournaments. But thats just me all lot of people seem to have enjoyed the casting.
On April 10 2012 20:06 cuppatea wrote: If the future for the Western SC2 scene is to have tournaments of Koreans competing exclusively against each other then the Western SC2 scene has no future. There needs to be a stronger foreign presence during the latter stages of tournaments or the game will die.
Well, at the pace SC2 is going in Korea, it'll probably go the way of WC3 where all the Koreans either quit or leave Korea, leaving only the foreigner scene.
At least I think that's how it went.
Yes, pretty much, although it seems fairly certain now that KeSPA/OGN are going to be picking up SC2, so I don't see the Korean dominance subsiding any time soon.
It's quite simple, there are way more koreans playing, sc2, like way more compared to any other country and also a WAY higher percentage of them take the game seriously as an actual sport.
This has nothing to do with koreans being simply better at the game, but because they have a very different mindset of the game and it has grown more popular.
I like watching high level play. If this means watch koreans only, then so be it. I don't really care about mid tier foreigners doing well in tournaments just because koreans were banned or because they got some sort of seed in the later stages of the tournament.
Foreigners should just start practicing more and stop complaining about balance every time they lose
On April 10 2012 19:56 Fueled wrote: Have teams (not just players) go over to Korea and study the Korean playing enviroment/routine. Take that work ethic for Starcraft 2 and bring it back to NA/Europe/wherever the team house is and make a carbon copy of it. Foreign players need to get better and getting better is putting in more practice and practice against GOOD players.
Remember when MC got knocked down to Code B and everyone was in a panic? He dropped down because he walked away from practice to participate in all the foreign tournaments, got back to Korea to find that he was leagues behind. '
My point is though that foreigners just need to get better. Send teams/team managers over to Korea and have them study these Korean teams that have some of the best players in the world. Write a handbook on how to have a succesful and dominate team/team house and go from there. If teams can do this, the foreign scene will start to look a hell of a lot stronger.
And practice makes perfect. If you think you've practiced enough, practice a little more. And practice against someone with equal to more experience than you. You'll learn a lot. Though teams have been taking a small step forward in doing this by signing Korean players to their team.
You hit the nail, the infrastrucure made Korean players scary, SC2 foreign mentality/training environment is still at the level of BW's dark times, where players cared only for each other, its true that its a solo competition but just like in sports there is a whole team behind each athlete.
When Idra went to Korea and started to practice in house couch told him what to do, and Idra was reluctant to change his habits etc. But in the end it payed off, Idra was one of few really good mechanical foreigners in Korea back in bw.
I dont actually believe many players in SC2 including Korean players have good guiding. When i see fOrGG doing stupid hotkeying and losing macro cycles because he doesnt find hotkeying his 3rd/4th and so on CC attractive and banking 10 mules and later hindering his multitasking(because he is clicking all them manually -_-). It shouldnt work like that, yes there are personal preferences but when something starts to hinder your performance it stops being preference it becomes a flaw. Because im kinda fixated on mechanical aspect of Starcraft, i see maaaany mistakes from all players Koreans and foreigners, and just wonder where the fuck is the coach to tell them all of this.
Bw teams seem to be way more rigoristic, and people refer to it negatively but in fact thats the best way to train, in any sport, athletes of all levels tend to vision their performance as a matter of "now" but they need coaches to inject the aspect of "future" in them. I perfetcly understand how painfull is to change habits that grew over MANY years, but good coach will envision the player a possibility of siginificant improvement. And thats only a mechanical aspect, now lets say strategies, metagame, psychological preparedness its all vital in any high level sport, and those players are not doing their hobbies, some of them are winning fucking loads of money or competeing for it, why not make it easier? AFAIK Bw teams are doing all of these.
Foreigners need to copy it, its investment in future, it won't work from day 1 but it will work in half a year, without this SC2 will be second BW (but less popular in the end).
every serverpool should foster its own scene, but any kind of league or tournament and even the smallest cup must be accessible by anyone meeting the requirements.
if you want a more homegrown scene, make requirements like "must reside in EU" etc... but if koreans pay a visit to play, you better let them, anything else would be racism.
[/QUOTE] How about you stop living you life and work 10hours/day? follow your own advices? Oh, WAIT you won`t have time to complain about whinking "foreiners" on the forum :lol:
What is wrong with people willing to see more different players participate tournaments? What is this, rasism towards non-Korean perhaps?
Why do you hate Blizzard balancing, they nerfed you favourite race, and you`re too busy training too even think about switching over?
Why would Korean skill be affected anyhow by any tournament in which they do not participate, and it is outside Korea? Aren`t they training as much as physically possible already and travelling and stress deprives them from the ability to practice,..
In general please less rasism and fanboyinsm please, and at least try to think your argument somewhat, okay? [QUOTE][B]
Wow, Y U SO MAD? Truth hurts or what? Fanboyism? which fanboyism? I never mentioned any players. I was talking about the overall skill level of the tournament under the OP proposed rules, not the koreans' skill level. But you couldn't see that cuz you were too busy raging for no reason. I won't follow my own "advice" cause I'm not a progamer. It wasn't even an advice, just a personal opinion. And whether you like it or not, a FACT in many foreign players' cases. Your arguments are really retarded you know. You sustain an idea that would limit the number of players from Korea just because they are Korean and call ME, the guy who opposes it, racist? Talk about hypocrisy, LOL! You should take a few minutes to calm down before you reply. Your post made no sense and your arguments are dumb
I don`t see why we have to limit them because they are korean. I mean really, they are simply better because they practice more. So should we ban players who practice more? Why turn this into a korean only thing...are you admitting the are genetically superior? Silly idea imo.
Right now there exist two groups of people to generalize a bit:
Group 1: People who like to watch the highest possible gameplay, the best competition and who get hyped if 14 Koreans are in the top 16.
Group 2: People who like to watch Koreans as well, but are less interested in total Korean domination. They care most about watching players they can identify with and thus prefere top foreigners over most Koreans.
Right now Group 1 neglects the validity of Group 2's interests in respect of big tournaments. If this continues we lose a lot of viewers from Group 2 which would be sad.
There has to be a compromise, not too many Koreans should be invited or able to qualify for a paid ticked via online qualification + foreign teams shouldnt pick up too many Koreans. The ratio of Liquid is fine, the ratio of SK is very bad.
To be honest I think a lot of the western scene gets ignored anyways even by it's own fans. The gathering had far less pages in it's single lr thread that was used for all 3 days than IPL4 had in it's thread for just the last day. Most people probably don't remember that the winner of that lost embaressingly to drg at dreamhack valencia last year. Also there'e already continental segragation of the western scene, many casual NA fans couldn't tell you the nationality or team of any EU pros beyond those on Mouz, dignitas and possibly empire. I almost never hear anything about the latin american, sea or chinese scenes unless I specifically go looking for something about them. There really isn't a well promoted united western scene to rally around and just picking " whatever foreigner is left" to cheer for is kinda weird.
If the only foreign player left in a tournament is idk slivko or xigua who I know nothing about then I'm probably going to end up rooting for a korean player I've been watching closely in the gsl, gstl, ksl, esv weekly etc. I'm not always going to be more attached to the concept of a western player winning because I may have less attachment to that specific player than whoever is left for them to face.
Who people want to cheer for has more factors than just nationality. Canada has a depressingly small amount of top level pro players. I don't speak swedish and I don't know anything about that culture but I do enjoy watching Thorzain, Naniwa, Sjow and Sase play. They all have unique playstyles that are fun to watch and it makes me cheer for them even over fellow canadians like Drewbie.
My wife is your more typical casual watcher and tends to stop paying attention as soon as everyone on EG goes out. To her the team she likes means more than nationality. Hell be honest guys if the finals of a tournament was liquidTaeja vs EGJYP it would be just as interesting as if it was say kiwikaki vs heart.
To grow the scene and retain casual watcher's interest tournaments don't have to limit the amount of players any one region can send. Instead teams need to work on making players (regardless of nationality) more interesting. Tell me who somone is, where they came from in life and show me why I should start to care about them. People don't like MKP just becuase he's good, they like him because he's emotional, and funny and easy to empathise with. He has a storyline worth following and being emotionally invested in. Most players probably have some key story or trait that could become what they are known for other than just their spectacular play, teams and journalists should be working harder to let fans get to know players better.
I still really don't understand the whole "Foreigners are easier to relate to!" bullshit. Is it just because they're white? Lots of Koreans display plenty of personality.
If you want to see more foreigners competing in events then how about the foreigners get good.
On April 10 2012 07:05 Avril_Lavigne wrote: is there seriously a thread about this? Why not just ban Korea all together... No, the only thing that we can do is get better and dominate Korea, not restrict the amount of players they can send off to compete in our tournaments. this is just stupid...
Exactly. Being a 'white dude' I'd really love it if we could compete with the koreans, but looks like atm we cant. Kinda boring for me when watching big international tourney (IPL 4 for eg most recently) when we all drop out - I dont follow the GSL/korea scene much so its hard for me to root for players I dont know.
We just gotta gotta gotta get better!
Im looking at you Stephano! And white-ra, cmon dude win more shit i *hearts* you
On April 10 2012 21:30 ladyumbra wrote: To grow the scene and retain casual watcher's interest tournaments don't have to limit the amount of players any one region can send. Instead teams need to work on making players (regardless of nationality) more interesting. Tell me who somone is, where they came from in life and show me why I should start to care about them. People don't like MKP just becuase he's good, they like him because he's emotional, and funny and easy to empathise with. He has a storyline worth following and being emotionally invested in. Most players probably have some key story or trait that could become what they are known for other than just their spectacular play, teams and journalists should be working harder to let fans get to know players better.
THIS is actually the most important point. Teams, tournaments and players themselves need to work on marketing players!
It has been mentioned for a long time but there has been very little improvement.
On April 10 2012 21:30 ladyumbra wrote: To grow the scene and retain casual watcher's interest tournaments don't have to limit the amount of players any one region can send. Instead teams need to work on making players (regardless of nationality) more interesting. Tell me who somone is, where they came from in life and show me why I should start to care about them. People don't like MKP just becuase he's good, they like him because he's emotional, and funny and easy to empathise with. He has a storyline worth following and being emotionally invested in. Most players probably have some key story or trait that could become what they are known for other than just their spectacular play, teams and journalists should be working harder to let fans get to know players better.
THIS is actually the most important point. Teams, tournaments and players themselves need to work on marketing players!
It has been mentioned for a long time but there has been very little improvement.
It's not easy to market Koreans. It's a lot easier to market foreigners.
You'll have a few Koreans (Boxer, MC) who are easy. But you really think the casual fan is going to tune in to watch the 30th best Korean? I think they'd rather watch White-Ra, or up and coming players (Scarlett) of European descent. It may be racist or nationalistic but it is the truth.
On April 10 2012 07:09 Avril_Lavigne wrote: Team liquid should implement a "like" function or thumbs up function to peoples responses. That way I can "like" the non ignorant.
On April 10 2012 07:06 HorsemasterK wrote: Its too bad that you think people are only able to cheer for people from their own country.
This.
I sometimes cheer for korean players even if they're playing a "foreigner". Nationality is really the last thing on my list when I choose who to cheer for.
On April 10 2012 21:59 H.Endymion wrote: Train and stfu...
Do people complain about Kenyans winning Marathon or other country-sided sports ? NO !!
Just train, get better and shut up !
The same Kenyans don't compete in every marathon.
You are asking players to train 10 hours a day at 0 salary and 0 income, in order to potentially make money in the future? That's the problem.
With no intermediary tournaments for budding stars, players with potential won't play because they have to feed themselves. This is why in every major sport there are minor leagues or challenger circuits (eg. Tennis, Basketball, etc.) - so that developing players have a chance to earn at least a meager wage as opposed to nil.
I think there is only one thing left to do that is to embrace the korean dominance . They have been dominating bw for a decade and they are going to do the same if sc2 last that long . Always bet on the koreans man they are pretty good .
On April 10 2012 07:06 HorsemasterK wrote: Its too bad that you think people are only able to cheer for people from their own country.
This.
I sometimes cheer for korean players even if they're playing a "foreigner". Nationality is really the last thing on my list when I choose who to cheer for.
For you it isn't important. For a lot of people it is.
The problem with TeamLiquid is it's full of people who are huge hardcore BW/SC2 fans (hence the LoL bashing), including myself. They don't understand the casual gamer and just assume that everyone is into the Korean thing.
You're scaring off a lot of potential fans when they watch MLG and realize it's two players who can't even speak English.
When I first started watching SC2 awhile back I was deeply connected to Idra, HuK, InControl, Sheth, Kiwikaki, Select, etc. - now of course I don't mind watching Koreans. But I still remember the first time I watched a Day[9] daily using a replay with two Koreans and I was like... who the heck are these players, not that interesting.
There were 2 pretty big tournaments in Europe, the Gathering and Copenhagen games where there were plenty of top EU players. The IPL 4 was marketed as bringing together the best players in the world so I think it was fine to have all the Koreans there.
From a spectator point of view, it makes little difference to me where the players come from.
However, from a players perspective, I can imagine it is very hard to break into the scene when even the top foreigner players struggle to make it past a couple of rounds in a major tournament before they are knocked out.
If things continue like they did in IPL4, the foreigner scene may just die out (not from a fan perspective, but players just won't be able to financially justify competing).
Even the big 'foreigner' teams all have major korean names on their rosters now, can there be any going back?
On April 10 2012 21:30 ladyumbra wrote: To grow the scene and retain casual watcher's interest tournaments don't have to limit the amount of players any one region can send. Instead teams need to work on making players (regardless of nationality) more interesting. Tell me who somone is, where they came from in life and show me why I should start to care about them. People don't like MKP just becuase he's good, they like him because he's emotional, and funny and easy to empathise with. He has a storyline worth following and being emotionally invested in. Most players probably have some key story or trait that could become what they are known for other than just their spectacular play, teams and journalists should be working harder to let fans get to know players better.
THIS is actually the most important point. Teams, tournaments and players themselves need to work on marketing players!
It has been mentioned for a long time but there has been very little improvement.
It's not easy to market Koreans. It's a lot easier to market foreigners.
You'll have a few Koreans (Boxer, MC) who are easy. But you really think the casual fan is going to tune in to watch the 30th best Korean? I think they'd rather watch White-Ra, or up and coming players (Scarlett) of European descent. It may be racist or nationalistic but it is the truth.
Boxer, MC, MKP, DRG, MMA, etc. are all as easy to market as WhiteRa, Idra, Stephano, etc.. Similarly, aLive, Ganzi, Alicia, etc. are all as easy to market as Axslav, Kas, Nerchio, etc.. Difference is, the Koreans produce much better games.
I honestly do not get the "Koreans show less personality" lines at all.
On April 10 2012 21:30 ladyumbra wrote: To grow the scene and retain casual watcher's interest tournaments don't have to limit the amount of players any one region can send. Instead teams need to work on making players (regardless of nationality) more interesting. Tell me who somone is, where they came from in life and show me why I should start to care about them. People don't like MKP just becuase he's good, they like him because he's emotional, and funny and easy to empathise with. He has a storyline worth following and being emotionally invested in. Most players probably have some key story or trait that could become what they are known for other than just their spectacular play, teams and journalists should be working harder to let fans get to know players better.
THIS is actually the most important point. Teams, tournaments and players themselves need to work on marketing players!
It has been mentioned for a long time but there has been very little improvement.
It's not easy to market Koreans. It's a lot easier to market foreigners.
You'll have a few Koreans (Boxer, MC) who are easy. But you really think the casual fan is going to tune in to watch the 30th best Korean? I think they'd rather watch White-Ra, or up and coming players (Scarlett) of European descent. It may be racist or nationalistic but it is the truth.
Boxer, MC, MKP, DRG, MMA, etc. are all as easy to market as WhiteRa, Idra, Stephano, etc.. Similarly, aLive, Ganzi, Alicia, etc. are all as easy to market as Axslav, Kas, Nerchio, etc.. Difference is, the Koreans produce much better games.
I honestly do not get the "Koreans show less personality" lines at all.
The language barrier is the biggest problem in marketing Koreans.
If Koreans dominate SC2, like they did in BW, SC2 foreign scene is gonna die within 2 years to be left with a handfull fo people posting on teamliquid and some community events and tournaments sponsored by a pizza place.
On April 10 2012 21:30 ladyumbra wrote: To grow the scene and retain casual watcher's interest tournaments don't have to limit the amount of players any one region can send. Instead teams need to work on making players (regardless of nationality) more interesting. Tell me who somone is, where they came from in life and show me why I should start to care about them. People don't like MKP just becuase he's good, they like him because he's emotional, and funny and easy to empathise with. He has a storyline worth following and being emotionally invested in. Most players probably have some key story or trait that could become what they are known for other than just their spectacular play, teams and journalists should be working harder to let fans get to know players better.
THIS is actually the most important point. Teams, tournaments and players themselves need to work on marketing players!
It has been mentioned for a long time but there has been very little improvement.
It's not easy to market Koreans. It's a lot easier to market foreigners.
You'll have a few Koreans (Boxer, MC) who are easy. But you really think the casual fan is going to tune in to watch the 30th best Korean? I think they'd rather watch White-Ra, or up and coming players (Scarlett) of European descent. It may be racist or nationalistic but it is the truth.
Boxer, MC, MKP, DRG, MMA, etc. are all as easy to market as WhiteRa, Idra, Stephano, etc.. Similarly, aLive, Ganzi, Alicia, etc. are all as easy to market as Axslav, Kas, Nerchio, etc.. Difference is, the Koreans produce much better games.
I honestly do not get the "Koreans show less personality" lines at all.
The language barrier is the biggest problem in marketing Koreans.
One thing I don't like about IPL was that they seeded, Nestea, MMA and MC directly into pool play, the players who qualified in some way, aLive, Puma, Polt, Bomber, MarineKing. I don't mind them inviting the previous champions back, but now i think its better to only invite top 8 for IPL5.
Aslong as koreans recieve the same treatment as foreigners im fine with it, whoever plays best get the price.
Then limiting the numbers from 1 country or another only hurts the event it would be better for every tournament to be mostly or maybe only Korean participants if they are the best of the best providing the most entertainment and value for money for the fans, sponsors and the event themselfs.
Personally I don't think thats the case there a more than a few none Korean players who can compete and a whole load more that can cause an upset or take a game or two here and there which adds to the entertainment.
However if you limited the numbers of players from one country you have to be fair do that for all of them besides the best player/players are still going to win limiting numbers will not make players better just limit the chances of others.
*shrugs* I never got into the BW scene, but most of my favourite players are Koreans. Mate of mine who doesn't even watch knows the korean players better than any 'foreigner' so I'd say they market themselves with great play.
If they need to market themselves on personality more, then a lot of them are really working on that. MC and Polt have shown great english and personality. Some players show great personality, the language barrier isn't a true barrier to them. MC and Whitera show this imo. They're probably two of the most popular sc2 players who were not originally english speakers.
So as a whole, not sure why people are bringing up the language barrier. All non-english countries deal with it, not just Korea.
So for me: great skill is just as easy to market as great personality. The marketer's dream is someone that has both. Probably like 1% of all progamers, but that's why they're the dream and not the standard.
What not to do: Limit seeds or opportunities for the best players of the world to enter tournaments
What to do: Increase interest in the personalities behind the players, International or Korean. People don't necessarily cheer for players representing their country or 'the West'. People cheer for people with great skill and an interesting and engaging personality. Focus on building up personality (as in marketing).
Come on dudes, these kinds of threads are ridiculous now. Threads like the OP are just thinly veiled suggestions at limiting or banning koreans from tournaments with the stupid reason that they are "too good". Foreigners hyped SC2 because they finally had a chance to compete with the koreans on a level playing field and now they are squirming in their seats because SC2 is not turning out how they thought it would. It's simply the difference in the effort that the koreans and the foreigners put in. If the koreans are going to put in 10 hours of practice everyday and if the foreigners are unwilling to do the same, the skill gap is only going to widen - and it already has.
I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
On April 10 2012 22:48 white_horse wrote: Come on dudes, these kinds of threads are ridiculous now. Threads like the OP are just thinly veiled suggestions at limiting or banning koreans from tournaments with the stupid reason that they are "too good". Foreigners hyped SC2 because they finally had a chance to compete with the koreans on a level playing field and now they are squirming in their seats because SC2 is not turning out how they thought it would. It's simply the difference in the effort that the koreans and the foreigners put in. If the koreans are going to put in 10 hours of practice everyday and if the foreigners are unwilling to do the same, the skill gap is only going to widen - and it already has.
I agree with this. Koreans are willing to work extremely hard for almost no pay. The majority of Korean pros make hardly any money except for the ones at the top (MKP, MC , Nestea etc).
In most foreign societies its more profitable to just get a random fast food job then to join a pro team as an unknown getting paid squat, training 10 hours a day and then not even be certain that you will "make it" as a pro.
So many noobs in this thread don't understand how far back this korean dominance has went. It's not simply "You must work harder ", the Koreans have a better atmosphere than us. A lot of ignorant answers to a problem that isn't simple.
Whaddya mean "recent" events, Koreans have always been dominant...
Other than that, I agree that it was maybe a little too many Koreans this IPL, but other than that I think foreign tournaments have had a pretty good Korean/Foreigner ratio. You gotta remember that the GSTL Finals meant that a lot of Koreans made their way to Las Vegas that probably wouldn't have come otherwise.
This is sad. If you want to compete with Korea's level, then get on Korea's level. Otherwise? Kindly keep to yourself. Its literally whining about people being better at something than you are and how apparently the very fact there are people better than you is "unfair". The casual fans need to accept that this is a game based off a game that spawned the world's greatest e-sport imho. Its GOING to be competitive and its GOING to have a very high skill ceiling that's practically impossible for 99.9999999999% of people to ever even dream of reaching simply because of constraints like time put into practice, monetary/budget issues, etc.
If you make this game your living, you too can become Korea's level. You want proof? Just look at what Sziky in BW managed to do against the odds in the amateur-pro scene. I'm sorry that the concept of "congregating gamers with like interests" or "setting up connections so you play with the best" is just beyond so many these days. Its not even a problem with the game or the system at that point, its under-developed people whining about their inability to network with people.
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
Well, maybe it doesn't make you racist, since that is a bit harsh, but for me, as a fan of the game i want to see the best players play. If half of oGs or FXO turned up at a local tournament near me I would be excited as all hell, while by your logic i should be annoyed that they play there. You can hardly blame the korean players for being the best, you should instead blame your countries players for being so far behind the best players around and try to support your players instead of spreading hate towards other countries(in this case korea) players.
Sorry, but it just doesn't make any sense to me and I'm really trying hard to see this as anything other than blind patriotism and hate towards different cultures, or just trolling.
It's true I quickly lose interest in a tournament after all foreigners have been beaten and only Koreans remain.
But that's also precisely why its so exciting to watch foreigners go far in, or even win tournaments.
We're all humans. If Koreans are better its because they're practicing, talking, experimenting, innovating. Nothing now is preventing foreigners from doing the same. The hardest working foreigners are still talking games off top Koreans. Yes the Koreans are advantaged from a historical/cultural standpoint for adopting high speed internet and PC rooms. I don't consider that a 'problem.' If it hurts your enjoyment of the game, tough (that goes for me too). If you think its 'unfair,' you need to grow up.
People in NA and EUR are kinda wierd. We tend to like getting paid when we work. Generally more than 25 cents an hour.
Cool. Stop playing SC then.
Why would my playing SC have anything to do with whether or not thousands of Koreans make horrible life decisions in what to do with their time? No need to be defensive. For every Nestea there are tens of thousands of losers who've wasted a decade or more of their life (many started with SC1/BW) for absolutely no reason. It wasn't even fun for them. It's was just a pointless grind - like working in a coal mine 12 hours a day and not getting paid for it.
And people are somehow stating that we should be more like them. LOL. Holy crap that's funny.
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
What're the mysterious "actual points"? The marketability issue has been discussed. You assert casual fans are the majority with no evidence to back it up. Additionally, you never articulate why all casual fans are "anti-Korean."
In terms of simply limiting Koreans, I'm confused about what the bright line would be: how many Koreans is too much?
edit: @murkk, doubtless there are people who have wasted time. That is true in every competitive activity. Why should we cater to those who haven't made it? People are only saying we should be more like them because their system has produced the best.
edit: @murkk, doubtless there are people who have wasted time. That is true in every competitive activity. Why should we cater to those who haven't made it?
WHo says anything about catering? I love to watch the Koreans play. However, I wouldn't advise my worst enemy to be like them.
Internet wipes out the borders of nationality and lets us communicate across the world. E-sports exists to me in a world without borders, it should be above petty discussions on nationality. Embrace the possibility of communication, the beginning steps towards a unified mankind; wipe out that that separates us, because we are all brothers and explorers building a new world!
We have come to a state where people from USA can feel connected to a player from Sweden or France. This is pretty funny. But why have it come down to this? How come a Korean player can't be loved as much as a Ukrainian?
I would say it is because of the language barrier. Koreans tend to have worse English than most foreigners since they don't get exposed to the western culture as much. People like to have an English speaking player win a tourney and hear them say what they feel from their own mouths. Translators are great but it just isn't the same feeling when the message is conveyed through a third party. As JOJOsc2news said about marketing, we need to market the Koreans more. These foreign teams who have acquired Korean progamers should encourage them to stream more, speak more English and be more involved with the fans. Also making a lot of HYPE videos are good, especially by fans who support the players. If we look at MarineKingPrime, he has almost the whole reddit fanbase behind him which is huge.
So to ban Koreans only would be a stupid thing to do. The Korea vs the world state of SC2 isn't good. Exclusively kicking out these players who work hard and live in a very harsh environment, i.e 12 people living in one flat, is very unfair. You guys are judging a person because of where he is born.
If we had a tournament with a "3 person maximum from each country" requirement and only SaSe, Naniwa and MorroW were allowed to participate I would have been FURIOUS. Why no ThorZaIN, HayprO, Bischu, SjoW? Oh yeah, because apparently Swedish players are too good. Does that sound fair? Of course not, but to some people Koreans are the exception and to me these people are hypocrites.
Embrace the world of Starcraft 2 and stop making restrictions. You want the game to evolve, you want players to improve, why the hell do you want to isolate the best players in the world from competing with your favourite player?
I am very concerned that the skill-gap seems to be widening. With the exception of Stephano there is not a single player in the foreign scene able to challenge the Korean players with any kind of consistency. Even IdrA's ability to produce a brilliant series here and there seems to have vanished. Huk and Naniwa are also great foreign players, but by now they are more a product of the Korean scene than the foreign scene. That distinction is important because, perhaps in the future the foreign scene will fall behind so far that sending any of its products to train in Korea is going to be meaningless. With Stephano likely to retire for good in September, I hope more foreigners are going to develop an ability to compete.
Though I understand that some people are just interested in seeing the best compete, regardless of where they are from, many more people will not be as interested in Starcraft 2 if it is going to turn into a mostly Korean affair. If this happens I fear the global interest in the game will decline quite rapidly, this is bad news not just for the foreign scene, but can potentially kill the Korean scene aswell. I do not know the numbers, but I do believe GOM depends heavily on revenue generated by international viewership. Perhaps the involvement of Kespa will be able to awaken more domestic interest in the game in the future, but right now I feel it is foreign viewership that fuels the pro competition in Korea.
So, no, it is not racist to be happier when a foreigner wins than when a Korean wins, it is good for the scene as a whole, Koreans included. I cheer for foreigners to win, not because I identify more strongly with Koreans than, for example a Frenchman, but because I know that the success of foreign players is pivotal to the existence of global Starcraft.
That said,restricting the numbers of Koreans in foreign events is not going to solve anything in the long-term, if this ever happens it means that the scene is dying already. It would be nothing more than an ultimately futile attempt to keep the foreign interest alive artificially. I hope it is never deemed necessary.
People in NA and EUR are kinda wierd. We tend to like getting paid when we work. Generally more than 25 cents an hour.
Cool. Stop playing SC then.
Why would my playing SC have anything to do with whether or not thousands of Koreans make horrible life decisions in what to do with their time? No need to be defensive. For every Nestea there are tens of thousands of losers who've wasted a decade or more of their life (many started with SC1/BW) for absolutely no reason. It wasn't even fun for them. It's was just a pointless grind - like working in a coal mine 12 hours a day and not getting paid for it.
And people are somehow stating that we should be more like them. LOL. Holy crap that's funny.
Isn't that true for everything that is competitive in life? If you are not good enough you don't get any attention. How many people are there that train hard but don't make it to the top? Are you saying nobody should aspire to be the next sports star or singer? If just anyone can be that good, it wouldn't be that interesting anymore, would it?
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
Well, maybe it doesn't make you racist, since that is a bit harsh, but for me, as a fan of the game i want to see the best players play. If half of oGs or FXO turned up at a local tournament near me I would be excited as all hell, while by your logic i should be annoyed that they play there. You can hardly blame the korean players for being the best, you should instead blame your countries players for being so far behind the best players around and try to support your players instead of spreading hate towards other countries(in this case korea) players.
Sorry, but it just doesn't make any sense to me and I'm really trying hard to see this as anything other than blind patriotism and hate towards different cultures, or just trolling.
So why don't you watch GSL? or KSL? there enough good games with Koreans in them.
Also, by my logic it's not you who should be annoyed, it is me and the majority of the SC2 viewerbase, get it? I understand that you prefer to watch good games, and it's great for you to have the GSL and the KSL, but you need to understand that us a viewer, people like me are more valuable, since we are the majority of the viewers, we bring the revenue, without us there's no MLG, no IPL, no DH, and without these there won't be enough money in the Korean scene to support the houses, and there's just not enough Korean viewers at home, so the Korean scene will also shrink like hell.
You also need to understand that I don't blame them for being the best, I actually have no problems with Koreans winning everything, however, when it's a Korean only top 4, top 8, top 16 etc, it is boring, there's already a GSL with better games, most people like the Koreans not only for the games, but for stuff like Stephano, Naniwa or HuK making great runs - can the foreigner underdog beat the Korean champion? Did you notice the incredible cheers, during MLG Providence, when it was announced that Haypro have beaten Nestea? Or the cheers when he was about to beat MVP?
And what should I blame the foreigners players for? For not throwing their lives away on a pipe dream? You don't get it, while Koreans don't get money for being in a team house, they don't have to pay for food, they don't have to pay for electricity, they don't have to pay for water and they don't have to pay rent, most foreigners would love an opportunity like this, but there's nothing like this in the west.
Also, spread hate? Againt other countries? Nope, no, only a fool can read what I said as something like that. If anything, I spread hate towards people like you, who are close-minded, incapable of viewing the big picture, incapable of understanding what other people say, not understanding that their selfishness is destroying the thing that they love, and blame other people for being a hater.
People in NA and EUR are kinda wierd. We tend to like getting paid when we work. Generally more than 25 cents an hour.
Cool. Stop playing SC then.
Why would my playing SC have anything to do with whether or not thousands of Koreans make horrible life decisions in what to do with their time? No need to be defensive. For every Nestea there are tens of thousands of losers who've wasted a decade or more of their life (many started with SC1/BW) for absolutely no reason. It wasn't even fun for them. It's was just a pointless grind - like working in a coal mine 12 hours a day and not getting paid for it.
And people are somehow stating that we should be more like them. LOL. Holy crap that's funny.
Isn't that how it goes in everything in the world if you want to be best? How many failed tiger woods or jordan's are there? Might as well tell your kids "Don't try, you will fail anyway"
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
Well, maybe it doesn't make you racist, since that is a bit harsh, but for me, as a fan of the game i want to see the best players play. If half of oGs or FXO turned up at a local tournament near me I would be excited as all hell, while by your logic i should be annoyed that they play there. You can hardly blame the korean players for being the best, you should instead blame your countries players for being so far behind the best players around and try to support your players instead of spreading hate towards other countries(in this case korea) players.
Sorry, but it just doesn't make any sense to me and I'm really trying hard to see this as anything other than blind patriotism and hate towards different cultures, or just trolling.
So why don't you watch GSL? or KSL? there enough good games with Koreans in them.
Also, by my logic it's not you who should be annoyed, it is me and the majority of the SC2 viewerbase, get it? I understand that you prefer to watch good games, and it's great for you to have the GSL and the KSL, but you need to understand that us a viewer, people like me are more valuable, since we are the majority of the viewers, we bring the revenue, without us there's no MLG, no IPL, no DH, and without these there won't be enough money in the Korean scene to support the houses, and there's just not enough Korean viewers at home, so the Korean scene will also shrink like hell.
You also need to understand that I don't blame them for being the best, I actually have no problems with Koreans winning everything, however, when it's a Korean only top 4, top 8, top 16 etc, it is boring, there's already a GSL with better games, most people like the Koreans not only for the games, but for stuff like Stephano, Naniwa or HuK making great runs - can the foreigner underdog beat the Korean champion? Did you notice the incredible cheers, during MLG Providence, when it was announced that Haypro have beaten Nestea? Or the cheers when he was about to beat MVP?
And what should I blame the foreigners players for? For not throwing their lives away on a pipe dream? You don't get it, while Koreans don't get money for being in a team house, they don't have to pay for food, they don't have to pay for electricity, they don't have to pay for water and they don't have to pay rent, most foreigners would love an opportunity like this, but there's nothing like this in the west.
Also, spread hate? Againt other countries? Nope, no, only a fool can read what I said as something like that. If anything, I spread hate towards people like you, who are close-minded, incapable of viewing the big picture, incapable of understanding what other people say, not understanding that their selfishness is destroying the thing that they love, and blame other people for being a hater.
Wait, did you just write that you are more valuable a fan than anyone that disagrees with you? And that Koreans make for boring games? And that there are no teams in the west that pay players for practicing? On top of that you call the guys that disagree with you fools...
I don't know why people like to watch "pros" that suck compete.
Me, I always like to watch best of the best, no matter what their nationality happens to be, whether they are Korean, Swedish, Saudi Arabian, Kenyans, w/e.
But it's always so fun to watch foreign pros who have legions of fans just because they are from the same country (i.e. IdrA and his Merican fans) get demolished and toyed with on their own soil.
Btw I am an American I love Korean pros because they are the best.
On April 10 2012 07:06 yawnoC wrote: Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story.
Most of them can't.
As a westerner... from the moment you turn 18 you simply can't afford to invest the time required to become as good. Our society has no respect and a hell of a lot of prejudices towards progaming and e-sports in general. Hence, there's just no cultural and almost no financial backup. As long as that remains true foreigners will never be as good as Koreans, because this backup is required for skill of such caliber to arise. Therefor when faced with the decision of pursuing progaming or whatever else, there's no choice for 99% of western gamers but to give up on progaming as a serious venture.
Western e-sports has to bring about nothing less that a cultural paradigm shift. To pull that off, a lot more money needs to be pumped into western e-sports in general. In order for a lot more money to be invested, the audience needs to grow and pay more. In order for the audience to grow and spend more money on e-sports, tournaments need to be exciting, competitive and rewarding.
So yeah... if you let Koreans stomp each and every tournament with all the background they have coming from Korea... SC2 will not grow much more as an e-sport. It's not cool but it's just the way it is, IMO.
People in NA and EUR are kinda wierd. We tend to like getting paid when we work. Generally more than 25 cents an hour.
Cool. Stop playing SC then.
Why would my playing SC have anything to do with whether or not thousands of Koreans make horrible life decisions in what to do with their time? No need to be defensive. For every Nestea there are tens of thousands of losers who've wasted a decade or more of their life (many started with SC1/BW) for absolutely no reason. It wasn't even fun for them. It's was just a pointless grind - like working in a coal mine 12 hours a day and not getting paid for it.
And people are somehow stating that we should be more like them. LOL. Holy crap that's funny.
Isn't that how it goes in everything in the world if you want to be best? How many failed tiger woods or jordan's are there? Might as well tell your kids "Don't try, you will fail anyway"
According to him everyone should just get a normal office job and live a normal life and never take any risks in life.
murkk, you know that you only have 1-shot at life, right? So why would you not support those who believe in their passion for something and strive to become the best? It is stupid to never try, studying can always come later on if you really only care about salary. Passion > Money imo.
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
What're the mysterious "actual points"? The marketability issue has been discussed. You assert casual fans are the majority with no evidence to back it up. Additionally, you never articulate why all casual fans are "anti-Korean."
In terms of simply limiting Koreans, I'm confused about what the bright line would be: how many Koreans is too much?
edit: @murkk, doubtless there are people who have wasted time. That is true in every competitive activity. Why should we cater to those who haven't made it? People are only saying we should be more like them because their system has produced the best.
Seriously? Just look at the fanclubs Idra still has more viewes on his fanclub than all of the Korean fanclubs, combined. Who are the Koreans with the big fanclubs? MKP and MC, why? Because MC have been making a constant effort to connect to the foreign community (remember GSL march? When he talked english on the stage?) and MKP for being a very emotional player while having a very distinct playing style (at the beginning) and after that kept on being a personality (like while casting on homestory cup). Also, look at the rest of the top foreigners, Stephano, HuK, Naniwa, all have 150+ fans on their fanclubs, foreigners are just liked more by more people, and this is TL, which is the most hardcore SC2 site, more casual people don't even post here. And seriously? The most viewed MLG was Orlando, in which HuK won and Idra made a great run.
Who are the most watched streamers? Idra, Huk, Naniwa And Stephano, Stephano can actually get more viewers on his stream then all of the Korean players combined, Idra did more than that in his prime (he got to 20,000 viewers once).
In the last MLG, there was a poll on "who is going to win", when it was between Huk and Heart, when Heart was ahead, who do you think won the poll? Huk did, by a 93%-7% ratio.
It is obvious that the casual fans are the majority, and that they prefer their foreigners over most of the Koreans.
You can also check MLG VODs and so on, the most watched games are almost exclusively the ones in which a foreigner beats a Korean.
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
Well, maybe it doesn't make you racist, since that is a bit harsh, but for me, as a fan of the game i want to see the best players play. If half of oGs or FXO turned up at a local tournament near me I would be excited as all hell, while by your logic i should be annoyed that they play there. You can hardly blame the korean players for being the best, you should instead blame your countries players for being so far behind the best players around and try to support your players instead of spreading hate towards other countries(in this case korea) players.
Sorry, but it just doesn't make any sense to me and I'm really trying hard to see this as anything other than blind patriotism and hate towards different cultures, or just trolling.
So why don't you watch GSL? or KSL? there enough good games with Koreans in them.
Also, by my logic it's not you who should be annoyed, it is me and the majority of the SC2 viewerbase, get it? I understand that you prefer to watch good games, and it's great for you to have the GSL and the KSL, but you need to understand that us a viewer, people like me are more valuable, since we are the majority of the viewers, we bring the revenue, without us there's no MLG, no IPL, no DH, and without these there won't be enough money in the Korean scene to support the houses, and there's just not enough Korean viewers at home, so the Korean scene will also shrink like hell.
You also need to understand that I don't blame them for being the best, I actually have no problems with Koreans winning everything, however, when it's a Korean only top 4, top 8, top 16 etc, it is boring, there's already a GSL with better games, most people like the Koreans not only for the games, but for stuff like Stephano, Naniwa or HuK making great runs - can the foreigner underdog beat the Korean champion? Did you notice the incredible cheers, during MLG Providence, when it was announced that Haypro have beaten Nestea? Or the cheers when he was about to beat MVP?
And what should I blame the foreigners players for? For not throwing their lives away on a pipe dream? You don't get it, while Koreans don't get money for being in a team house, they don't have to pay for food, they don't have to pay for electricity, they don't have to pay for water and they don't have to pay rent, most foreigners would love an opportunity like this, but there's nothing like this in the west.
Also, spread hate? Againt other countries? Nope, no, only a fool can read what I said as something like that. If anything, I spread hate towards people like you, who are close-minded, incapable of viewing the big picture, incapable of understanding what other people say, not understanding that their selfishness is destroying the thing that they love, and blame other people for being a hater.
Wait, did you just write that you are more valuable a fan than anyone that disagrees with you? And that Koreans make for boring games? And that there are no teams in the west that pay players for practicing? On top of that you call the guys that disagree with you fools...
Keep on rocking...
I said that the majority of the viewers are a more important demographic, maybe that is the way I should've wrote that.
And I didn't say that a person who disagrees with me is a fool, I said that a person who is incapable of understanding my viewpoint is a fool.
most of us don't wanna watch foreigners play against each other.
players like white-ra are pretty low skilled and watching stephano stomp him again and again gets tiring.
we need koreans, or else foreign tournaments will consist of huk and stephano stomping awful awful players. i'm ok with restricting the number of koreans, but if you ban them outright, i won't bother watching foreigner only tournaments.
On April 11 2012 00:36 ref4 wrote: I don't know why people like to watch "pros" that suck compete.
Me, I always like to watch best of the best, no matter what their nationality happens to be, whether they are Korean, Swedish, Saudi Arabian, Kenyans, w/e.
But it's always so fun to watch foreign pros who have legions of fans just because they are from the same country (i.e. IdrA and his Merican fans) get demolished and toyed with on their own soil.
Btw I am an American I love Korean pros because they are the best.
It's probably because you actually understand and enjoy the game while a lot of other people that watch don't really understand anything and only watches for the excitement of the battles and is cheering for whoever they like. If you want to be mainstream you have to captivate the minds of the ignorant.
Why would my playing SC have anything to do with whether or not thousands of Koreans make horrible life decisions in what to do with their time? No need to be defensive
Its crap like this that will kill the idea of e-sports before it even begins. Racist biggotry only make you like like an ignorant scrub not worth of attention. The very pros who dedicate their lives to something you see as "making horrible life decisions". I'm an ex-pro athlete and I take that as a statement built to discourage people from trying. I would never tell my child that dedicating their LIVES to something they love is a "horrible life decision".
So, no, it is not racist to be happier when a foreigner wins than when a Korean wins
Actually to place certain emphasis on any quality or emotion based solely on race is the VERY definition of racism. I swear its getting harder and harder on these boards to slip by without some racist against Koreans attributing every bit of hard work you do to you "just being Korean". Its really sad for you as people to show this sort of thing to be your true nature. Just ignorant racists.
On April 10 2012 18:04 naastyOne wrote: Hello everyone,
While I do understand that TL webforum is quite a "certain type of people" community, there is so ridiculous amound of not called upon fail i just wanted to get in.
First of all, sport is about the SHOW, not determining who has the longest dick. While skill is an integral part of the Show, more skill doesn`t necessary means better show. When about half of matches are predictably Korean terran MMM&drops, you might as well not watch half of the tournament. Simple as that, pick the "best"(the highest in position or whatever criterium) don`t waste time on the else. Obviously this is an example, but you get the drill.
Secondly 95% to 99% will not see the difference between the "code A" and "code S" doing same BO and style of play, while they can very vell notice different styles of play and different BOs. What does it means? Basically that there is no need for 90% of tournament to be super mega pro skilled players for it to be entertaining, on contray, such tournament is less predictable, and thurs more interesting.
That is the thing that is widely seen world-wide. The lesser leagues, i mean every friging european country has 2-3 leagues of football. Strangely, they have enough fans and money to live their life, despite the fact that uniting them into one "mega" league would result in overall "higher skill".
Could continue with other sports, but pretty much all sports have their lowest competitions at inter schools or inter-university levels, with kids/students playing in free of study time, so the argument holds perfectly.
Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
Ever wondered why the for example Football World Cup is much more noticeable and attended event than European Cup, despite the fact that Europeans dominate football, and a part from Argentina and Brazil, pretty much no national team can stand up? Despite the fact that a lot of European underdogs are probably better than some/most of teams from other than Europe/SA region.
So what does this means? It means in an order to survive and develop any sport needs a balance of local and international events, local and international teams, and most importantly content for broad spectre of dedication, and international events should be international, it should be serving to promote and advertise the sport apon broad community.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
Lastly, the ones about "they need to get better" got it upside down. When korea has community, which generates enough revenue to pay large enough number of pro-gamers for a living, In NA/EU, it does not exists, so foreign players can not really dedicate themselves to SC2, because they also have education and work which is not connected to SC2 and takes time from it.
Which again brings down the question of how to build up the international community, and "international tournaments"(coupled with local ones) are a great thing to do, bot only if the "domination of one nation" is impossible, otherwise the entire event serves only as another local competition for that country.
And the words of IPL4 manager pretty much confirms it, IPL4 failed on it`s purpose of an international tournament. Still interesting event, but largely irrelevant.
Thanks for bringing some sense into this thread - so many in here don't seem to be able to think further than their noses stretch
So, no, it is not racist to be happier when a foreigner wins than when a Korean wins
Actually to place certain emphasis on any quality or emotion based solely on race is the VERY definition of racism. I swear its getting harder and harder on these boards to slip by without some racist against Koreans attributing every bit of hard work you do to you "just being Korean". Its really sad for you as people to show this sort of thing to be your true nature. Just ignorant racists.
If you had not taken that quote out of context, you would have realized my preference is not a result of any of those things. I do not dismiss the achievements of Koreans as less worthy or admirable in any way. My reasoning is that a display of foregin ability to compete is better for competetive Starcraft than another display of Korean dominance. Quote mining like that is quite malicious.
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
Ok lets try this.
concern 1 . We can't relate to the koreans ! * Already disproven by multiple people in multiple posts. It is entirely possible to relate to people outside your own culture. NA probably has the largest casual fanbase and the least Pros capable of showing off impressive games. Chances are the last foreigner in a tournament will be european and/ or currently training in korea. Most of the time the primary language of that player will not be english. Even if they speak english it will not always be entirely smooth becuase of different grammar structures etc (ex. naniwa. white-ra, stephano). While not racist saying " I only want to cheer for people who're like me" is certainly predjudiced and false since the average new yorker probably has nothing in common with Mana or Bling or Kas etc. Casual fans like that are creating their own boundaries on who they feel they can relate to. If we suddenly get a slew of foreign pros from idk south america who can win major tournaments but need a translator because they don't speak english I highly doubt they will be embraced by all. The world VS korea nonsense gives an illusion of a united western scene but such a thing does not exist.
Concern 2. We want to see a variety of players ! * So do I, which means not seeing the same few foreign hopes trotted out at every tournament. However that requires the pro scenes of different regions to produce players who can actually qualify for events. . Limiting how many players can come from each region will almost always lead to only the same players coming from each region. Even if you hold qualifiers, NA will almost always end up being HuK, Idra, Select etc. EU would have to split into mini regions but would predictaly be a zerg like ret, morrow or nerchio, a toss like Naniwa, Mana or Sase, and a terran like Thorzain, Tarson or Kas. Korea would actually have the most fluid roster since they have a wider amount of top level pros who can all beat each other on any given day.
Also the scene is currently not set up to have such a system because all our tournaments are run by different leagues. It'd be awkward if one league introduced region limits and others didn't. Then you basically split the fanbase between those who want equal representation and those who want to see the best play out of people who legit earned thier way into a tournament. teams then also have to choose which competitions to send their players too and how that looks to the general public. Plus you know most foreign teams have atleast one korean player now, I'm sure it'd be great if liquid was like " Hey guys we're taking everyone to mlg for open bracket but um Hero and Zenio and Taeja becuase you see we can't have too many koreans."
Concern 3 All koreans is boring to watch! * This is subjective and it depends on the players in question. If you fill a tournament with drg, mc, mma, mkp etc even casual people will like it becuase they like those players and their playstyles.
Concern 4 We can't qualify becuase we can't get through open bracket! * Tough cookies, a qualifier like open bracket weeds out the weak, if foreign players can't get through then they didn't deserve to be there anyways. How many god damned times did people bitch about incontrol going 0-5 in groups at mlg because he could not keep up with what was still mostly just other foreign players and a handful of koreans. Limiting how many koreans can play in qualifers and open brackets would only lead to more awkward situations where someone undeserving makes it to groups and gets facerolled. Huk and Sase almost made it to pool play at IPl4 and they took down several koreans to do so. If we redid that open bracket multiple times there's a good chance some of those times they'd get through becuase they've proven capable of consistent high level play. However this time they failed, it's not the end of the world.
concern 5. There are more casual fans we deserve to be the biggest voice! * Dosen't matter, especially as tournaments move towards more sustainable revenue types. Hardcore watchers are more likely to pay for HD, vods, multiple cameras so they can watch from a pros pov etc. Being the majority does not make you more important and doesn't even garuntee that you contribute the most to the community despite having more people to do so with.
On April 10 2012 07:06 yawnoC wrote: Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story.
Most of them can't.
As a westerner... from the moment you turn 18 you simply can't afford to invest the time required to become as good. Our society has no respect and a hell of a lot of prejudices towards progaming and e-sports in general. Hence, there's just no cultural and almost no financial backup. As long as that remains true foreigners will never be as good as Koreans, because this backup is required for skill of such caliber to arise. Therefor when faced with the decision of pursuing progaming or whatever else, there's no choice for 99% of western gamers but to give up on progaming as a serious venture.
Western e-sports has to bring about nothing less that a cultural paradigm shift. To pull that off, a lot more money needs to be pumped into western e-sports in general. In order for a lot more money to be invested, the audience needs to grow and pay more. In order for the audience to grow and spend more money on e-sports, tournaments need to be exciting, competitive and rewarding.
So yeah... if you let Koreans stomp each and every tournament with all the background they have coming from Korea... SC2 will not grow much more as an e-sport. It's not cool but it's just the way it is, IMO.
I have to disagree completely. You are talking about players investing time who aren't programers yet while most people say that the foreign programers should practise more. And regarding culture, support for esport: Do you know the Korean situation? Esport may be a bit more established there, but the parents are far more authoritarian. In the west many parents are supporting whatever their children do. I heard a lot of Korean programers in interviews saying their parents didnt like it at first.
To all the people who say foreigners are lazy etc.
If the only way Progaming can be done is if you play for 14-16 hours a day, well then SORRY BUT IT WONT HAVE A FUTURE IN EU/NA. There are NO circumstances which justify playing a game for 14 hours every day. Everyone who does that is ridiculously stupid or has some seriuos problems in his life...or is Korean.
The number one spectator sport in Korea (baseball) limits foreigners to 4 and less in Japan i think 2. I don't see a problem if they do it.
basketball they only allow 2 foriengers.
Has nothing to do with racism, it's about fostering home grown talent which kids will not aspire to if none looks like them. It's the same with getting blacks involved with engineering by giving them mentors and slots in engineering departments.
I disagree with limiting players to enter major tournaments by regional selection because the WCG games tended to be super one-sided when you matched weaker nation players against top players from Korea and Europe. And then Korea won anyways.
I would not disagree with a region-locked tournament that allows for the breeding of better local pros to compete in the major tournaments that include the koreans. An equivalent to I guess the Minor Leagues, or College Basketball, etc.
However - key points to consider:
-Who do we consider in or out? Koreans, sure. What about Europeans? If we had a tournament without Koreans, wouldn't Naniwa, Stephano, and Thorzain just top the charts over and over? So what is the line we draw?
-Who funds and sponsors this? It seems we can't just ask MLG or IPL to kick out the Koreans, so we need another league started like how NASL started. Technically, if NASL kept true to it's name, it'd have been perfect for a lot of people in this thread.
-Are we pandering to the unknowing public who cheer only for the face and the flag? Or is our goal to have people understand the intricacies of the game so they cheer for the better player? I may not know a lot about association football, but I deeply enjoy watching the best players around the world play. I may cheer for England (because I am also a Gerrard fan), but that does not exclude me from watching the rest of the World Cup because I want to see those flip kick goals.
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
What're the mysterious "actual points"? The marketability issue has been discussed. You assert casual fans are the majority with no evidence to back it up. Additionally, you never articulate why all casual fans are "anti-Korean."
In terms of simply limiting Koreans, I'm confused about what the bright line would be: how many Koreans is too much?
edit: @murkk, doubtless there are people who have wasted time. That is true in every competitive activity. Why should we cater to those who haven't made it? People are only saying we should be more like them because their system has produced the best.
Seriously? Just look at the fanclubs Idra still has more viewes on his fanclub than all of the Korean fanclubs, combined. Who are the Koreans with the big fanclubs? MKP and MC, why? Because MC have been making a constant effort to connect to the foreign community (remember GSL march? When he talked english on the stage?) and MKP for being a very emotional player while having a very distinct playing style (at the beginning) and after that kept on being a personality (like while casting on homestory cup). Also, look at the rest of the top foreigners, Stephano, HuK, Naniwa, all have 150+ fans on their fanclubs, foreigners are just liked more by more people, and this is TL, which is the most hardcore SC2 site, more casual people don't even post here. And seriously? The most viewed MLG was Orlando, in which HuK won and Idra made a great run.
Who are the most watched streamers? Idra, Huk, Naniwa And Stephano, Stephano can actually get more viewers on his stream then all of the Korean players combined, Idra did more than that in his prime (he got to 20,000 viewers once).
In the last MLG, there was a poll on "who is going to win", when it was between Huk and Heart, when Heart was ahead, who do you think won the poll? Huk did, by a 93%-7% ratio.
It is obvious that the casual fans are the majority, and that they prefer their foreigners over most of the Koreans.
Thank you for providing actual evidence. Now we can have a discussion.
My response to you is that there is no solution. We want to root for foreigners, we want foreign hopes but there is no way to ensure that foreigners have good showings. The solution to simply limit Korean participation seems flawed: we have more interest when the Koreans come. The Gathering and One Nation of Gamers were tournaments with sizable prize pools that have simply gotten less interest in large part because they did not attract the best in the world--the Koreans. I would suggest that it is NOT just the foreigners that people like; it is the Korean VS Foreigner storyline.
Additionally, simply asserting you are in the majority, and should get what you want is asinine. 1) You need to articulate what you want and 2) you only increase viewer count which is proving to be an unsustainable model. We need people who are willing to pay for season passed, and pay to watch VODs. There are no numbers in terms of "Pro-Korean vs Anti-Koreans" buying passes, it's impossible to distinguish.
On April 11 2012 00:55 Crushinator wrote: If you had not taken that quote out of context, you would have realized my preference is not a result of any of those things. I do not dismiss the achievements of Koreans as less worthy or admirable in any way. My reasoning is that a display of foregin ability to compete is better for competetive Starcraft than another display of Korean dominance. Quote mining like that is quite malicious.
If you had a better logical sense, you would realize that no matter what your reasoning, no matter how you try to explain or call what I did "quote mining" (trying to discredit it), the fact still remains that you feel happier when a foreigner wins than when a Korean wins just based on the fact that its a Korean from a Korea and a foreigner from Not-Korea. Your entire arguement was contained in that one quote whether or not you are capable of realizing that.
On April 10 2012 07:06 yawnoC wrote: Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story.
Most of them can't.
As a westerner... from the moment you turn 18 you simply can't afford to invest the time required to become as good. Our society has no respect and a hell of a lot of prejudices towards progaming and e-sports in general. Hence, there's just no cultural and almost no financial backup. As long as that remains true foreigners will never be as good as Koreans, because this backup is required for skill of such caliber to arise. Therefor when faced with the decision of pursuing progaming or whatever else, there's no choice for 99% of western gamers but to give up on progaming as a serious venture.
Western e-sports has to bring about nothing less that a cultural paradigm shift. To pull that off, a lot more money needs to be pumped into western e-sports in general. In order for a lot more money to be invested, the audience needs to grow and pay more. In order for the audience to grow and spend more money on e-sports, tournaments need to be exciting, competitive and rewarding.
So yeah... if you let Koreans stomp each and every tournament with all the background they have coming from Korea... SC2 will not grow much more as an e-sport. It's not cool but it's just the way it is, IMO.
The current pros need to get better in order to open the gates for new talent to come through. I'm talking about the pros who live in team houses, are already getting paid to play and are able to commit to hours and hours of practice. If the pro Korean players are putting in 10+ hours of training a day, then the foreign pros should be, too.
The foundation is here for the foreigners, we just have to tip over the first domino.
Current pros practice a few more hours a day > they get better > they eventually get to the level of Korean play > they start winning major tournaments that include top Korean players > eSports is then looked at as a viable option for those who may have questioned its stability in the foreign scene > more people are then playing, trying to become pro > more talented players in the ladder pool/pro pool leads to better practice for foreign players and makes the foreign scene grow.
Telling foreigners to just "work harder" is idiotic. It's like trying to put a hole in a brick wall with one's head. There isn't enough incentive. Foreigners aren't going to work harder unless changes are made, and that's one of the points of this topic: to discuss possible changes.
If the businessmen think that temporary protectionist policies [like limiting Koreans] is the solution, then so be it. But waiting around for foreigners to improve isn't a solution. Suggesting that foreigners "get better" doesn't help and is quite annoying. There has to be more reason to do so, or they just won't.
Unfortunately, I don't see any way to improve the foreigner scene that doesn't involve excluding Korean participation in some significant part. I refuse to consider any solution that ignores foreigners or suggests to just improve marketing Koreans or the like. Korean domination will increase even if nothing is done anyway, so it seems less productive to discuss.
My own very vague suggestion is to use to look at the NBA. Koreans as the NBA players, foreigners as everyone else. By slowly "going global", the NBA has helped improve the quality of play in the league, as well as quality everywhere else, and has made a lot of money in the process. The Korean teams themselves are in fact doing something analogous by partnering with foreign teams, training their players, selling abroad, etc. I think that the teams should just ramp it up more. Or maybe an organization like GOM itself can help. Team competitions where the performance of foreigners is worth double points. Seeding. All the while maintaining reasonable expectations of these players. After all, Koreans will continue to be better as long as the people supporting them invest more in them than the people supporting foreigners do.
[note: Korean participation is "restricted" if foreigners are given preference such as a seed, because it could have been a Korean]
I think we should stop looking players based on their nationality. Nationality doesn't mean anything. Some of the best players are from foreign community, some are from Korea. This is why we call the players through IDs, and NOT by their full names (well, it is hard to pronounce some of the names, but oh well you get the idea ).
To those who are saying that it doesnt matter where the pros come from:
Do you have a simple understanding of economics?
If the foreigners keep losing becasue they're no smart enough to form a good (korea like) structure (for practice etc.) they'll keep failing. And you know what comes with constant failing? Right. Nobody will want you to pay or you won't be able to afford things like flight cost or anything else. Therefore more and more people will start dropping that game (or e-sports) in general. And with that the sponsors will go away too.
Consider it before you think that one country dominating is ok. So either the foreign pro will form team houses and start training effectivly or the e-sports organizations will have to regulate this development.
On the side: My opinion is that people DO care whether a pro is from their country. There is no sport in the world where people dont care about their country. I understand that e-sports is very different in many aspects (like the connectivity it has to different parts of the world) but its just basic psychology: Groups are important to people!!! And just because there are more people in THIS Thread that say otherwise...its normal for the internet: only those who are concerned or feel attacked, are those who say something about it...
Yeah the get better argument amounts to telling starving ppl someplace to get richer. No can do without tools and eviroment which fosters getting better. Perefct example is north vs south Korea. One wealthy one dirt poor. Same ppl but one was given tools
On April 10 2012 07:06 yawnoC wrote: Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story.
Most of them can't.
As a westerner... from the moment you turn 18 you simply can't afford to invest the time required to become as good. Our society has no respect and a hell of a lot of prejudices towards progaming and e-sports in general. Hence, there's just no cultural and almost no financial backup. As long as that remains true foreigners will never be as good as Koreans, because this backup is required for skill of such caliber to arise. Therefor when faced with the decision of pursuing progaming or whatever else, there's no choice for 99% of western gamers but to give up on progaming as a serious venture.
Western e-sports has to bring about nothing less that a cultural paradigm shift. To pull that off, a lot more money needs to be pumped into western e-sports in general. In order for a lot more money to be invested, the audience needs to grow and pay more. In order for the audience to grow and spend more money on e-sports, tournaments need to be exciting, competitive and rewarding.
So yeah... if you let Koreans stomp each and every tournament with all the background they have coming from Korea... SC2 will not grow much more as an e-sport. It's not cool but it's just the way it is, IMO.
Eh...where do you get the idea that the Koreans have some sort of solid backup plan when they decide to go into progaming? A majority of them drop out of middle/high schools to devote full time on starcraft. It's really REALLY hard to get a decent job in the future if you didn't graduate from high school let alone middle school, even more so than it is in Western countries because the Korean culture is downright obsessed with education. They're giving up a lot too. There's a ton of prejudice against progaming over there as well and the vast majority of parents would be adamantly against it if their children tell them "Mom, dad, I want to drop out of school so that I can become a progamer". Many Korean progamers don't succeed, but people naturally don't really notice those guys because all the attention is on the successful ones like Boxer and Nada.
But, they still go into progaming. No matter how high the risk is, it's what they want to do.
On April 11 2012 00:55 Crushinator wrote: If you had not taken that quote out of context, you would have realized my preference is not a result of any of those things. I do not dismiss the achievements of Koreans as less worthy or admirable in any way. My reasoning is that a display of foregin ability to compete is better for competetive Starcraft than another display of Korean dominance. Quote mining like that is quite malicious.
If you had a better logical sense, you would realize that no matter what your reasoning, no matter how you try to explain or call what I did "quote mining" (trying to discredit it), the fact still remains that you feel happier when a foreigner wins than when a Korean wins just based on the fact that its a Korean from a Korea and a foreigner from Not-Korea. Your entire arguement was contained in that one quote whether or not you are capable of realizing that.
If you truly think that the quote contained my whole argument, it is infact you who is the windowlicker.
Why would my playing SC have anything to do with whether or not thousands of Koreans make horrible life decisions in what to do with their time? No need to be defensive
Its crap like this that will kill the idea of e-sports before it even begins. Racist biggotry only make you like like an ignorant scrub not worth of attention. The very pros who dedicate their lives to something you see as "making horrible life decisions". I'm an ex-pro athlete and I take that as a statement built to discourage people from trying. I would never tell my child that dedicating their LIVES to something they love is a "horrible life decision". .
Oh give me a break. People trying to compare sitting in front of a computer screen for 12-14 hours a day in a tiny house with 20 other people for years on end with zero payoff and no future is in ANY way shape or form equivilent to being an athlete in any real sport or olympic activity need to wake the fuck up from their fantasy world.
And yes, I would do anything in the world to prevent my kid from such a horrible dead end life.
And the people I enjoy are the winners in this little fantasy world. The thousands of people who lose you never see. Sorta like showing all the winners at a casino while keeping the losers in their adult diapers tucked away out of sight but still playing slots with kid's education fund hoping for the big win.
On April 11 2012 01:04 Chunhyang wrote: Telling foreigners to just "work harder" is idiotic. It's like trying to put a hole in a brick wall with one's head. There isn't enough incentive. Foreigners aren't going to work harder unless changes are made, and that's one of the points of this topic: to discuss possible changes.
If the businessmen think that temporary protectionist policies [like limiting Koreans] is the solution, then so be it. But waiting around for foreigners to improve isn't a solution. Suggesting that foreigners "get better" doesn't help and is quite annoying. There has to be more reason to do so, or they just won't.
Unfortunately, I don't see any way to improve the foreigner scene that doesn't involve excluding Korean participation in some significant part. I refuse to consider any solution that ignores foreigners or suggests to just improve marketing Koreans or the like. Korean domination will increase even if nothing is done anyway, so it seems less productive to discuss.
Its all right infront of us in black and white. Koreans put more time into practice and their rankings show it. Its not a mystery as to why Korean players are better. They weren't born with the ability to play Starcraft 2 better than foreign players. They put more time into practice and practice against people of equal or higher skill level and thus are better because of it.
As I stated in an earlier post, foreign teams (entire teams including managers) need to go over to Korea and study the team houses over there. Learn the work ethic, learn how they train, etc... Bring that back to NA/Europe/where ever and model a team house/work enviroment after that. Its the only true way for foreigner teams to get better, (aside from signing Korean players currently playing on Korean teams).
The market is in the foreign scene. All the money and major sponsors are in the foreign scene and that should give the foreigner players more incentive to improve. Sooner or later you are going to start seeing more and more Koreans coming to foreign teams for the money and taking spots that would have been for foreign players.
Take a look at the Korean teams. Many of the B team players on these teams make little to nothing. These B teamers though can come over to the foreign scene, sign with a respectable team, pick up sponsors and make a pretty good living off playing. Over there you're either a Code S/A player or your a practice partner for these teams, getting little to nothing salary wise. Whats the incentive to keep playing over there if you are one of these B team players? To maybe get up to Code A or S in an already huge talent pool? Or maybe signing with a foreign team? What if you don't want to leave Korea to go live in a foreign teams house and be in an alien land? Wheres the incentive there for people like that?
My point being though that the money is here, the sponsors are here, the players want to be here. The incentive is here to get better. Put in a litttle extra practice and start taking out these top Koreans in major tournaments.
On April 11 2012 01:04 exterminatus wrote: Although SC2 is still secondary interest after korean BW leagues; when there is a even match, korean vs foreigner somehow feels more entertaining.
Of course it does, when Stephano goes toe to toe with Polt it produces some of the craziest and best ZvT out there. However that is a combination of two players of high level facing off and the foreigners vs korean aspect. Limiting how often a player like Polt would be able to attend tournaments in order to ensure a higher amount of western players does not stop most other western pros from getting destroyed however.
Again Blizzcon: 14 foreign players all had to win regional qualifiers ( minus substitutions with the chinese players). Top 2 still korean 53 quailified foreigners at wcg. MVP still won with marineking and supernova in the top 8. Foreigners always outnumber koreans at IEM and local heros get a chance to show off, only once did a non korean win an IEM last year. most of the time they also held the majority of the top spots
We already have multiple tournaments where korean numbers are limited guys, even with a huge numbers advantage western players are generally not winning. On occasion they can be competitve and when they are it's fucking great but skewing the numbers in their favour will not solve the problem of foreign vs korea winrate. It only solves the issue ( if you have one) of how many foreign players you see before the top 4 or so is all korean anyways.
I dont get the point? You want to chant USA? Its so wrong - the better players are players from GSL the most competetive scene is korean scene the area with teamhouses and even the first real programing cluture is in korea... Korea players deserve their succes and after watching more and more games I got very quickly over the point thinking oh only koreans this is so dumb... its not... its not even less tension in play if you watch korean TVT to a boring foreigner TVT because THEY are much BETTER... also it might not be a question racial prejudice but there must be some reason why people dont like to see koreans win even if they deserve it ... I like a lot of korean players and i think they desever their money and desvere to win foreigners should try to catch up but i think people should get over it start watching GSL and root for a cool korean player... maybe in some month we have tons of former BW players killing foreigner players left and right... also keep in mind Last weekend was a special event that many koreans wont be at all tournaments-.
Why would my playing SC have anything to do with whether or not thousands of Koreans make horrible life decisions in what to do with their time? No need to be defensive
Its crap like this that will kill the idea of e-sports before it even begins. Racist biggotry only make you like like an ignorant scrub not worth of attention. The very pros who dedicate their lives to something you see as "making horrible life decisions". I'm an ex-pro athlete and I take that as a statement built to discourage people from trying. I would never tell my child that dedicating their LIVES to something they love is a "horrible life decision". .
Oh give me a break. People trying to compare sitting in front of a computer screen for 12-14 hours a day in a tiny house with 20 other people for years on end with zero payoff and no future is in ANY way shape or form equivilent to being an athlete in any real sport or olympic activity needs to wake the fuck up from their fantasy world.
And yes, I would do anything in the world to prevent my kid from such a horrible dead end life.
Similarity: Both athletes and e-athletes train very hard 24/7. Both perform repetitive actions over and over and over again until physical or mental exhaustion kicks in. Exercising and gaming are very similar in this regard, the first 1-2 hours of it is very fun, but 8-10 hours of non-stop exercise or gaming makes it a boring and demanding job.
Difference: Real athletes have HUGE sponsorship. E-athletes have small to medium sponsorship. Every human being on Earth loves to watch athletic gatherings because they are exciting, engaging, and audiences can identify and pride themselves in athletes representing their respective nations doing well. Only a small % of humans watch eSports because in order to even understand it you need to buy expensive video gaming equipment in the first place.
I wouldn't say those two are totally different, but there are similarities and difference between e-athletes and real athletes.
And yes I do agree that most e-athletes (99%) have little next to no future even with sponsors. That 1% that keeps winning everything (MC, Nestea, MVP) at best can make only half a million in their entire career before their wrists burned out or younger competitors start taking their prize. Whereas real athletes, even the mediocre ones get multi million dollar contract just for being bad (i.e. Jeremy Lin) and slightly marketable.
There is no Korean problem, The simple fact is in any true competitive sport the best will rise to the top. Its up to "the foreigners" to ship up or ship out.
You can visibly see the skill level difference in the play between the foreigners and the Koreans, and any tournament that excluded the best in the world will be the worse for it. Players only get out what they put in and at the moment the foreigners are simply not trying hard enough with the exception of a few that has gone to Korea to train.
Stephano has proved you don't need to travel to a another country to improve, all you need is hard work,determination to be the best you can be, and some natural talent.
The funny thing is that the Koreans train harder for far less. The teams over there don't have the financial backing to pay their players salaries like they do in the western scene, hence why so many Koreans want to join foreign teams.
It's just a difference in work ethic, straight up. This is why people like Naniwa and HuK do so well, they're the hardest working foreigners.
On April 11 2012 01:36 Destroyr wrote: I dont get the point? You want to chant USA? Its so wrong - the better players are players from GSL the most competetive scene is korean scene the area with teamhouses and even the first real programing cluture is in korea... Korea players deserve their succes and after watching more and more games I got very quickly over the point thinking oh only koreans this is so dumb... its not... its not even less tension in play if you watch korean TVT to a boring foreigner TVT because THEY are much BETTER... also it might not be a question racial prejudice but there must be some reason why people dont like to see koreans win even if they deserve it ... I like a lot of korean players and i think they desever their money and desvere to win foreigners should try to catch up but i think people should get over it start watching GSL and root for a cool korean player... maybe in some month we have tons of former BW players killing foreigner players left and right... also keep in mind Last weekend was a special event that many koreans wont be at all tournaments-.
It has nothing to do with race or people not watching it because its only Koreans. Its the fact that these top Koreans own the top foreign players to a tee and by participating in these foreign tournaments, hold down the growth of eSports outside of Korea.
Now you can't just go and ban Korean players from every foreign tournament. Who does that help? No one. The only way to fix this is for the foreign players to improve. Wheres the fun in watching a foreign tournament when you know that the best players in the world were banned from it because they were THE BEST. No fun, man.
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
Why would my playing SC have anything to do with whether or not thousands of Koreans make horrible life decisions in what to do with their time? No need to be defensive
Its crap like this that will kill the idea of e-sports before it even begins. Racist biggotry only make you like like an ignorant scrub not worth of attention. The very pros who dedicate their lives to something you see as "making horrible life decisions". I'm an ex-pro athlete and I take that as a statement built to discourage people from trying. I would never tell my child that dedicating their LIVES to something they love is a "horrible life decision". .
Oh give me a break. People trying to compare sitting in front of a computer screen for 12-14 hours a day in a tiny house with 20 other people for years on end with zero payoff and no future is in ANY way shape or form equivilent to being an athlete in any real sport or olympic activity needs to wake the fuck up from their fantasy world.
And yes, I would do anything in the world to prevent my kid from such a horrible dead end life.
Similarity: Both athletes and e-athletes train very hard 24/7. Both perform repetitive actions over and over and over again until physical or mental exhaustion kicks in. Exercising and gaming are very similar in this regard, the first 1-2 hours of it is very fun, but 8-10 hours of non-stop exercise or gaming makes it a boring and demanding job.
Difference: Real athletes have HUGE sponsorship. E-athletes have small to medium sponsorship. Every human being on Earth loves to watch athletic gatherings because they are exciting, engaging, and audiences can identify and pride themselves in athletes representing their respective nations doing well. Only a small % of humans watch eSports because in order to even understand it you need to buy expensive video gaming equipment in the first place.
I wouldn't say those two are totally different, but there are similarities and difference between e-athletes and real athletes.
And yes I do agree that most e-athletes (99%) have little next to no future even with sponsors. That 1% that keeps winning everything (MC, Nestea, MVP) at best can make only half a million in their entire career before their wrists burned out or younger competitors start taking their prize. Whereas real athletes, even the mediocre ones get multi million dollar contract just for being bad (i.e. Jeremy Lin) and slightly marketable.
Wow, and intelligent post. Amazing. Sure, their are similarities. But the differences are huge. When have you seen a woman begging for a man with a gamers body instead of an athletes. How many job interviews are impressed with "70-100 hours a week" gaming? How many people in the world can even relate to a SC2 player? How many impressive leadership skills have you seen? How many jobs are there in the SC2 former player catagory? Have you seen heard these 12 hour / day korean gamers.
I mean, even the most dedicated athlete has some personal time. However, it seems like every fan wants the players to turn into some sort of 14 hour a day zombie robot that only play SC2. I honestly feel guilty watching these games now.
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
Pretty much sums it up
Wyatt the White Elephant would find these competitions to be a farce.
You know what one counter to the Korean dominance might actually be?
A prompt release of all replays from every qualifier as soon as the event finishes.
Pros might not like it, but it'll be a lot better for the fans and it'll make life just a little more difficult for the Koreans (since the foreigners will have a bit more ammo under their belts - although this will work both ways).
Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
On April 10 2012 21:30 ladyumbra wrote: To grow the scene and retain casual watcher's interest tournaments don't have to limit the amount of players any one region can send. Instead teams need to work on making players (regardless of nationality) more interesting. Tell me who somone is, where they came from in life and show me why I should start to care about them. People don't like MKP just becuase he's good, they like him because he's emotional, and funny and easy to empathise with. He has a storyline worth following and being emotionally invested in. Most players probably have some key story or trait that could become what they are known for other than just their spectacular play, teams and journalists should be working harder to let fans get to know players better.
THIS is actually the most important point. Teams, tournaments and players themselves need to work on marketing players!
It has been mentioned for a long time but there has been very little improvement.
It's not easy to market Koreans. It's a lot easier to market foreigners.
You'll have a few Koreans (Boxer, MC) who are easy. But you really think the casual fan is going to tune in to watch the 30th best Korean? I think they'd rather watch White-Ra, or up and coming players (Scarlett) of European descent. It may be racist or nationalistic but it is the truth.
Boxer, MC, MKP, DRG, MMA, etc. are all as easy to market as WhiteRa, Idra, Stephano, etc.. Similarly, aLive, Ganzi, Alicia, etc. are all as easy to market as Axslav, Kas, Nerchio, etc.. Difference is, the Koreans produce much better games.
I honestly do not get the "Koreans show less personality" lines at all.
The language barrier is the biggest problem in marketing Koreans.
It isn't.
The biggest barrier to marketing Koreans is that they're Korean, meaning -
A. They live in Korea.
B. Their primary social interaction is with Koreans.
C. They're culturally Korean - in customs, language, values, etc.
D. They look Korean.
E. They identify with Korea, rather than with foreigners.
Every single one of these factors contribute to the challenge of marketing Koreans, and these are the same factors that make it difficult to market Asian celebrities in the West. Yes, there is a racist dimension to it - ie D, which is a race problem and has been called out as such repeatedly in the Asian celebrities case - but it is what it is. Saying there's no problem is not going to make it go away.
On the up side, none of this makes Koreans un-marketable - all it does is raise the barrier of entry. Korean players who actively reach out to the foreigner community - ie MC, DRG, Polt - are able to gather their own fan bases.
This does not mean, however, that SC 2 benefits from having 16/16 Koreans in every premier tournament, for the simple reason that while you're able to market individual Koreans, the sport itself is not marketable internationally when the only high caliber players of it come from a single country. You don't want SC 2 to be known as a Korean eSport, because that makes it parochical and niche.
On April 11 2012 01:54 k!llua wrote: You know what one counter to the Korean dominance might actually be?
A prompt release of all replays from every qualifier as soon as the event finishes.
Pros might not like it, but it'll be a lot better for the fans and it'll make life just a little more difficult for the Koreans (since the foreigners will have a bit more ammo under their belts - although this will work both ways).
How would this do anything but help the Koreans more? Posts from Naniwa (and I assume others) have indicated that the reason Koreans are so good compared to foreigners is because foreigners are by and large on their own. Koreans have coaches that study their players' opponents, and while there's definitely not "standard" play in any matchup at this point, as there is in Brood War, it's fairly easy to tell when a foreigner is playing and when a Korean is playing. Increasing the amount of information available is only going to benefit the Koreans more. The system is skewed towards Korean success because on the whole, they work better together.
Why would my playing SC have anything to do with whether or not thousands of Koreans make horrible life decisions in what to do with their time? No need to be defensive
Its crap like this that will kill the idea of e-sports before it even begins. Racist biggotry only make you like like an ignorant scrub not worth of attention. The very pros who dedicate their lives to something you see as "making horrible life decisions". I'm an ex-pro athlete and I take that as a statement built to discourage people from trying. I would never tell my child that dedicating their LIVES to something they love is a "horrible life decision". .
Oh give me a break. People trying to compare sitting in front of a computer screen for 12-14 hours a day in a tiny house with 20 other people for years on end with zero payoff and no future is in ANY way shape or form equivilent to being an athlete in any real sport or olympic activity needs to wake the fuck up from their fantasy world.
And yes, I would do anything in the world to prevent my kid from such a horrible dead end life.
Similarity: Both athletes and e-athletes train very hard 24/7. Both perform repetitive actions over and over and over again until physical or mental exhaustion kicks in. Exercising and gaming are very similar in this regard, the first 1-2 hours of it is very fun, but 8-10 hours of non-stop exercise or gaming makes it a boring and demanding job.
Difference: Real athletes have HUGE sponsorship. E-athletes have small to medium sponsorship. Every human being on Earth loves to watch athletic gatherings because they are exciting, engaging, and audiences can identify and pride themselves in athletes representing their respective nations doing well. Only a small % of humans watch eSports because in order to even understand it you need to buy expensive video gaming equipment in the first place.
I wouldn't say those two are totally different, but there are similarities and difference between e-athletes and real athletes.
And yes I do agree that most e-athletes (99%) have little next to no future even with sponsors. That 1% that keeps winning everything (MC, Nestea, MVP) at best can make only half a million in their entire career before their wrists burned out or younger competitors start taking their prize. Whereas real athletes, even the mediocre ones get multi million dollar contract just for being bad (i.e. Jeremy Lin) and slightly marketable.
Wow, and intelligent post. Amazing. Sure, their are similarities. But the differences are huge. When have you seen a woman begging for a man with a gamers body instead of an athletes. How many job interviews are impressed with "70-100 hours a week" gaming? How many people in the world can even relate to a SC2 player? How many impressive leadership skills have you seen? How many jobs are there in the SC2 former player catagory? Have you seen heard these 12 hour / day korean gamers.
I mean, even the most dedicated athlete has some personal time. However, it seems like every fan wants the players to turn into some sort of 14 hour a day zombie robot that only play SC2. I honestly feel guilty watching these games now.
Actually, NaDa and BoxeR both have amazing bodies (no homo)
yeah that is the nature of the job, athletes are outside and more active while e athletes shut themselves in because hey can you really practice SCII on a tennis court?
Wow, and intelligent post. Amazing. Sure, their are similarities. But the differences are huge. When have you seen a woman begging for a man with a gamers body instead of an athletes. How many job interviews are impressed with "70-100 hours a week" gaming? How many people in the world can even relate to a SC2 player? How many impressive leadership skills have you seen? How many jobs are there in the SC2 former player catagory? Have you seen heard these 12 hour / day korean gamers.
I mean, even the most dedicated athlete has some personal time. However, it seems like every fan wants the players to turn into some sort of 14 hour a day zombie robot that only play SC2. I honestly feel guilty watching these games now.
Its a whole different ball game in the Korean scene. Pro gamers over there are treated like celebrities, its just that the majority of them aren't getting paid enough.
What you are saying though mostly applies to the foreign scene. Its because the majority of people outside of pro gaming see it as a waste of time and don't take it serious.
I remember watching a Stephano interview and him saying that his mother wasn't happy that he got into pro gaming. That was of course until he won his first major prized tournament and it changed her viewing of it.
Heck, Idra gave up a scholarship to college to persue his pro gaming career. Look at him now, no college degree, but making a six figure income.
People outside of the gaming world in the foreign scene need to wake up and see that there's a boat load of money in this industry and that people are and can make a living off it.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I can't believe people look at this as a "problem." Let the best players win; they deserve the victory. I would love it if more foreign pros could compete and win, but I would never want to give them an unfair advantage just because they happened to be born in the Western world.
The fact that we are even having a debate about this disgusts me.
From looking at the games in IPL one big difference I found between koreans and foreigners might just be their state of mind. Players like MMA or MKP are just so much more aggressive and a lot of their play is on relentless pressure. Most of their games tend to be fairly low supply where they keep hammering their opponents and trading armies. Of course this is more applicable to terran players but zerg/protoss are also moving towards early aggression a lot. A lot of NA and european players still tend to favor the deathball approach which is quickly becoming out of style due to the coin flippy nature on the final battle. To compete they will have to adapt and be a lot more aggressive out of the bat.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
hmm interesting I don't seem to relate myself to an angry American midget, a Canadian midget or a Swede more so than I can to a South Korean.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
hmm interesting I don't seem to relate myself to an angry American midget, a Canadian midget or a Swede more so than I can to a South Korean.
but they speak english!!!!!!!!! Truly a character defining attribute.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I personally prefer to watch NA and Euro players even if it isn't the best of top tier play all the time. I become a fan of players from watching them stream, give commentary, do interviews, and even post on TL. Its not the same for me if these things are translated or in broken english and/or done by shy 16 year olds.
Not every event has to be like the god damn Olympics. I'm actually really excited for NASL season 3 with the lineup they have. http://nasl.tv/p/season3
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
hmm interesting I don't seem to relate myself to an angry American midget, a Canadian midget or a Swede more so than I can to a South Korean.
but they speak english!!!!!!!!! Truly a character defining attribute.
lol so can Korean pros like DRG and Polt.
and why is anyone STILL an IdrA fan? I mean he rage quits even in tournaments, put up bad results and doesn't give a rat's ass about his fans.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
Ok lets try this.
concern 1 . We can't relate to the koreans ! * Already disproven by multiple people in multiple posts. It is entirely possible to relate to people outside your own culture. NA probably has the largest casual fanbase and the least Pros capable of showing off impressive games. Chances are the last foreigner in a tournament will be european and/ or currently training in korea. Most of the time the primary language of that player will not be english. Even if they speak english it will not always be entirely smooth becuase of different grammar structures etc (ex. naniwa. white-ra, stephano). While not racist saying " I only want to cheer for people who're like me" is certainly predjudiced and false since the average new yorker probably has nothing in common with Mana or Bling or Kas etc. Casual fans like that are creating their own boundaries on who they feel they can relate to. If we suddenly get a slew of foreign pros from idk south america who can win major tournaments but need a translator because they don't speak english I highly doubt they will be embraced by all. The world VS korea nonsense gives an illusion of a united western scene but such a thing does not exist.
Concern 2. We want to see a variety of players ! * So do I, which means not seeing the same few foreign hopes trotted out at every tournament. However that requires the pro scenes of different regions to produce players who can actually qualify for events. . Limiting how many players can come from each region will almost always lead to only the same players coming from each region. Even if you hold qualifiers, NA will almost always end up being HuK, Idra, Select etc. EU would have to split into mini regions but would predictaly be a zerg like ret, morrow or nerchio, a toss like Naniwa, Mana or Sase, and a terran like Thorzain, Tarson or Kas. Korea would actually have the most fluid roster since they have a wider amount of top level pros who can all beat each other on any given day.
Also the scene is currently not set up to have such a system because all our tournaments are run by different leagues. It'd be awkward if one league introduced region limits and others didn't. Then you basically split the fanbase between those who want equal representation and those who want to see the best play out of people who legit earned thier way into a tournament. teams then also have to choose which competitions to send their players too and how that looks to the general public. Plus you know most foreign teams have atleast one korean player now, I'm sure it'd be great if liquid was like " Hey guys we're taking everyone to mlg for open bracket but um Hero and Zenio and Taeja becuase you see we can't have too many koreans."
Concern 3 All koreans is boring to watch! * This is subjective and it depends on the players in question. If you fill a tournament with drg, mc, mma, mkp etc even casual people will like it becuase they like those players and their playstyles.
Concern 4 We can't qualify becuase we can't get through open bracket! * Tough cookies, a qualifier like open bracket weeds out the weak, if foreign players can't get through then they didn't deserve to be there anyways. How many god damned times did people bitch about incontrol going 0-5 in groups at mlg because he could not keep up with what was still mostly just other foreign players and a handful of koreans. Limiting how many koreans can play in qualifers and open brackets would only lead to more awkward situations where someone undeserving makes it to groups and gets facerolled. Huk and Sase almost made it to pool play at IPl4 and they took down several koreans to do so. If we redid that open bracket multiple times there's a good chance some of those times they'd get through becuase they've proven capable of consistent high level play. However this time they failed, it's not the end of the world.
concern 5. There are more casual fans we deserve to be the biggest voice! * Dosen't matter, especially as tournaments move towards more sustainable revenue types. Hardcore watchers are more likely to pay for HD, vods, multiple cameras so they can watch from a pros pov etc. Being the majority does not make you more important and doesn't even garuntee that you contribute the most to the community despite having more people to do so with.
Here are some actualy numbers, not your opinion based on a vocal part (maybe majority, maybe not) of a site that at most includes 25% of the SC2 viewerbase (probably around 10%, during IPL4 there were 180,000 live views on the streams while only 17,000 people were on TL).
I don't think each international tournament should have just the best from each nation and thus limiting the power house Koreans to just a few players.
But I would definitely like to see at least one major tournament where that rule is applied.
Just like an Olympics type of thing. Where people get to cheer for their home country.
I definitely had fun watching WCG for SC:BW way back then. Before WCG, I had no clue about players like FroZ or Grrrr... I think it's just a great way to promote players all across the world.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
hmm interesting I don't seem to relate myself to an angry American midget, a Canadian midget or a Swede more so than I can to a South Korean.
but they speak english!!!!!!!!! Truly a character defining attribute.
lol so can Korean pros like DRG and Polt.
and why is anyone STILL an IdrA fan? I mean he rage quits even in tournaments, put up bad results and doesn't give a rat's ass about his fans.
Just for the record I am not a "fan" of any SC2 player, because I really have not been interested since the Koreans dominated everything. I bring up a big tournaments on the last day, check to see that the top 10+ spots are all Koreans, and then forget about it. Those were just some examples I recall from the earlier days of the SC2 scene, when Western players actually had a chance.
I think the ultimate relatable western player is Tyler. He is the average guy, he interacts with the community, and he is just a lot of fun to watch. It is sad he has not been able to do good at all in SC2.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
Tell the Western players to get better then. You can't beat someone who plays 10 hours a day against people of the highest skill level if you don't do the same thing. It will never happen.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
Yea you're right SC2 is fucked, that's why it saw an enormous growth last year. Good call.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
You sound incredibly close-minded and xenophobic.
At the same time, it would be wishful thinking for us to pretend that nobody thinks that way. At least he's honest.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
Where would the guys like Polt, Moon, Lyn, Cella fit? They "speak passable English", but they don't fit into "anyone but a Korean" criteria.
Most koreans train in a more professional environment, have a more professional attitude towards the game and their society actually encourages them to be good at gaming. I don't get why it's a problem. I wanna see the best games possible and I don't care whether they're korean or foreign.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
You won't have to see me in a few years because I'll tell you now I don't care. If that happens, so be it. I've been watching Korean StarCraft for years. SC2 isn't exactly staying fresh, anyways.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
Yea you're right SC2 is fucked, that's why it saw an enormous growth last year. Good call.
Last year western players had a chance, last year was the explosion of popularity. MLG Dallas was April 1-3 last year, almost exactly a year ago. Dallas was one of the first big western tournaments were western players won and people really got excited. The scene has been shrinking steadily since the start of Q4 2011, I expect it to really shrink this year, as the Koreans dominate and more and more viewers stop caring.
You need to remember the growth last year was the western market, and without western players winning that growth will evaporate. A guy who wanted to watch people he could relate to win and play does not care at all about "good play" or the spirit of the game or whatever. They will not watch Korean dominated tournies, the numbers reflect this, the audience is shrinking, and the sponsors are nervous.
-Ban the best because there's too much of them. -Increase the frequency of foreigners playing in tournaments even if literally none of them will ever make it past Ro8 or so with the limitations.
Anybody even slightly inclined to siding with this type of mindset probably also thinks black people should be banned from basketball, hispanics/europeans from international football, and Canadians from hockey. Just putting this in perspective for how absolutely ridiculous and racist you people are being whether or not you are capable of realizing it (all the posts so far just make them look even worse for re-iterating their unbelievably biggoted way of thinking).
The very concept of competition means SOMEONE is going to be the underdog and its up to them to step up their game.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
Where would the guys like Polt, Moon, Lyn, Cella fit? They "speak passable English", but they don't fit into "anyone but a Korean" criteria.
Only one I have heard of is Cella, he is a pretty cool guy and I would be invested in watching him win. As far as I know he hasn't been a contender in any recent tournies?
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
Yea you're right SC2 is fucked, that's why it saw an enormous growth last year. Good call.
A guy who wanted to watch people he could relate to win and play does not care at all about "good play" or the spirit of the game or whatever. They will not watch Korean dominated tournies
I don't want to live on this planet with you anymore.
The problem with catering to the xenophobic masses is that their attention span is so very short. Maybe marketing this eSports thing to the fans with staying power - the ones who play the game and watch the proscene regardless of the ethnicity of competitors - is the right thing to do in the long run. Watering down the quality of the top tournaments won't miraculously revive the dying foreign scene. The greater the masses, the lower the level of intelligence. Do we really want a bunch of flimsy Korean haters who only watch while the players who are "anything but Korean" are winning? Or... do we just want the best player to win and to watch quality games?
I'm sorry, but anybody thinking the sky is the limit for eSports is being a delusional mofo.
Foreigners are probably just too lazy. Whatever I'm fine with all Korean tournaments with only 1 or 2 foreigners, because then there is another criteria after which I can decide whom to root for.
-Ban the best because there's too much of them. -Increase the frequency of foreigners playing in tournaments even if literally none of them will ever make it past Ro8 or so with the limitations.
Anybody even slightly inclined to siding with this type of mindset probably also thinks black people should be banned from basketball, hispanics/europeans from international football, and Canadians from hockey. Just putting this in perspective for how absolutely ridiculous and racist you people are being whether or not you are capable of realizing it (all the posts so far just make them look even worse for re-iterating their unbelievably biggoted way of thinking).
The very concept of competition means SOMEONE is going to be the underdog and its up to them to step up their game.
This.
Hell, ban Huk and Naniwa too. They are practicing in Korea, thats not fair with the other foreigners. Why dont we ban Stephano too? If he starts to win everything that wont be good, right?
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
Yea you're right SC2 is fucked, that's why it saw an enormous growth last year. Good call.
A guy who wanted to watch people he could relate to win and play does not care at all about "good play" or the spirit of the game or whatever. They will not watch Korean dominated tournies
I don't want to live on this planet with you anymore.
Sorry you are offended by the facts of life, SC2 only got the massive viewer numbers and growth because it had Western players. Without them it is just SC1 again, which might be fine for many TL users, but it is a shame since it really had potential to spread e-sports
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
Yea you're right SC2 is fucked, that's why it saw an enormous growth last year. Good call.
The scene has been shrinking steadily since the start of Q4 2011, I expect it to really shrink this year, as the Koreans dominate and more and more viewers stop caring.
Please link the statistics that you're basing this off of.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
I would be fine with that. If the western scene will not rise to the level of the Korean scene, they only have themselves to blame. As you mentioned this has already happened and people should've learned from it. The top Korean players won't throw games to placate a foreigner audience.
On April 11 2012 02:29 DarkLordOlli wrote: Most koreans train in a more professional environment, have a more professional attitude towards the game and their society actually encourages them to be good at gaming. I don't get why it's a problem. I wanna see the best games possible and I don't care whether they're korean or foreign.
^ This is exactly it. Korean pro teams have dedicated coaches than read up on upcoming opponents and mentor players on their style and special match-specific considerations. Furthermore, Korean teams have a very tight-knit and dedicated social network, which leaves them playing the best of the best constantly. Foreigners will practice with foreigners, and remain at a foreigner-level of competition, especially if they don't put in more hours. However, it's becoming easier to do that as more and more players and going to Korea, and many Koreans are getting traded to foreign teams. In an interview, viOlet even said he sometimes considers himself a foreigner, and he is the first of what will be many.
Although I believe the Foreigner v Korean dichotomy is an awesome storyline and good for the scene, I think this will fade and the two cultures, East and West, mesh more and more over the game.
What we should do is simply enjoy the high level of play. I wouldn't mind seeing a league like WCG where there are representative of each country, but the quality of games is far more important to me. Also by playing against Koreans our foreign heroes will improve faster than if they were to only practice against other foreigners.
Foreigners practice less. Foreigners aren't as good as a result of practicing less. Result: ban Koreans.
No thank you, I'd rather watch top level game play than watch foreigners struggle around. Besides, foreign tournaments would be won by Stephano, Naniwa (maybe), IdrA (he still is good enough to slap around most foreigners)... and that's about it, maybe Thorzain, Kas? But Stephano would dominate nearly any tournament he entered. What's exciting about that?
People need to stop being butt hurt and tell your foreign heroes to PRACTICE MORE.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
I would be fine with that.
I just think it's hilarious that the "Western Masses" have no fucking idea what eSports is because they're too busy watching Fox News or Jersey Shore. Let's be realistic... These stupid masses don't have the smarts to watch eSports.
The thing for me is that I would love for foreigners to do well, but I have come to terms with that being rather unlikely. I just assume that some korean will win every time (since they are better and deserve it) and then I just see it as a bonus if some foreigner manages to do well. Kind of like how it was in Brood War. SC2 actually mirrors BW`s development I think, with foreigners doing really well in the beginning and then falling further and further behind as time passes by. The reasons behind it are most probably a complex combination of factors (some of them being culture, a cluster effect, differences in income and living standards). How many foreigners have you seen perform well in Code S lately? I think people had too high hopes for the foreigners due to how it all started out, but now things are starting to "normalize".
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
hmm interesting I don't seem to relate myself to an angry American midget, a Canadian midget or a Swede more so than I can to a South Korean.
but they speak english!!!!!!!!! Truly a character defining attribute.
lol so can Korean pros like DRG and Polt.
and why is anyone STILL an IdrA fan? I mean he rage quits even in tournaments, put up bad results and doesn't give a rat's ass about his fans.
... That's what people have been trying to tell you the whole thread.
IdrA gets 10-15 times the viewers of Losira, Min, and every other Zerg except Stephano.
Mind you, it isn't just because he's a foreigner - Sheth doesn't get these numbers, for example - but being the foreigner hope for 3-4 years during BW and SC 2 Beta has done wonders for IdrA. His personality, which is a lot more relatable for NA/EU fans than that of Korean pros, got him the rest.
Stephano is the same. He's the present foreigner hope, and that alone gives him a huge number of views. The rest he gets from his personality, which from what I've seen appeals to a lot of people in the West.
Nobody is saying that being a foreigner makes you automatically successful and popular among foreigners - but it's a huge factor in why foreigner stars are successful and popular.
On April 11 2012 02:50 Grend wrote: The thing for me is that I would love for foreigners to do well, but I have come to terms with that being rather unlikely. I just assume that some korean will win every time (since they are better and deserve it) and then I just see it as a bonus if some foreigner manages to do well. Kind of like how it was in Brood War. SC2 actually mirrors BW`s development I think, with foreigners doing really well in the beginning and then falling further and further behind as time passes by. The reasons behind it are most probably a complex combination of factors (some of them being culture, a cluster effect, differences in income and living standards). How many foreigners have you seen perform well in Code S lately? I think people had too high hopes for the foreigners due to how it all started out, but now things are starting to "normalize".
anybody that really knew about bw, knew this was going to happen. Only delusional people and people who knew absolutely nothing about sc and how much skill it took to be at a pro level thought this wouldn't happen.
I for one can't wait for these fans that whine because Koreans dominate to disappear. I'm so sick and tired of their whining regarding Koreans.
-Ban the best because there's too much of them. -Increase the frequency of foreigners playing in tournaments even if literally none of them will ever make it past Ro8 or so with the limitations.
Anybody even slightly inclined to siding with this type of mindset probably also thinks black people should be banned from basketball, hispanics/europeans from international football, and Canadians from hockey. Just putting this in perspective for how absolutely ridiculous and racist you people are being whether or not you are capable of realizing it (all the posts so far just make them look even worse for re-iterating their unbelievably biggoted way of thinking).
The very concept of competition means SOMEONE is going to be the underdog and its up to them to step up their game.
Great post. Now answer this - what do you think about your own country's policy of restricting the number of foreigners on Korean teams and in Korean sports leagues?
Are you okay with Korean soccer teams being all Europeans/South Americans and Korean basketball teams being all African Americans?
I don't play SC2 anymore but i still watch a lot of big tournaments. I don't wanna see only korean tournament like last IPL. IPL4 was great but I would prefer watching more foreigners like TLO or Sheth, Huk, Naniwa, Sase. I want to see my favourite players not the ankward Koreans like bomber who can't even say a word in english. Some of my friends stopped watching IPL after Stephano lost in loser's bracket just like me and just like other casuals. If I want to watch Koreans I will watch GSL with Tastosis!
-Ban the best because there's too much of them. -Increase the frequency of foreigners playing in tournaments even if literally none of them will ever make it past Ro8 or so with the limitations.
Anybody even slightly inclined to siding with this type of mindset probably also thinks black people should be banned from basketball, hispanics/europeans from international football, and Canadians from hockey. Just putting this in perspective for how absolutely ridiculous and racist you people are being whether or not you are capable of realizing it (all the posts so far just make them look even worse for re-iterating their unbelievably biggoted way of thinking).
The very concept of competition means SOMEONE is going to be the underdog and its up to them to step up their game.
Great post. Now answer this - what do you think about your own country's policy of restricting the number of foreigners on Korean teams and in Korean sports leagues?
Are you okay with Korean soccer teams being all Europeans/South Americans and Korean basketball teams being all African Americans?
Korea isn't the only country who requires a % of locals in their sports clubs. The idea is that the team with the most money doesn't just go out and buy an all-star team consisting of the world's best players. Also, at the highest level available locally, a country farms talent for their National Teams. It wouldn't help the scouts for the Korean national teams if they couldn't pick anybody from the best leagues in their country due to the fact that they aren't Korean. I'll tell you one thing, though. The Korean soccer players who end up on teams like Manchester United are at an advantage over any number of local talents, because they are recognized as being good. Lastly, 1:1 comparisons between SC2 and real sports are getting a little tired. Western countries don't recognize SC as a real sport, so don't act like it is one. In our neck of the woods, computer games are something you do after work or school, or on the weekend. Typically, if you want a career in the gaming industry, you get a career in making them or marketing them, not in playing them professionally.
What the hell is wrong with this thread and the people posting in it? What about just watching high level games, if foreigners cant keep up with koreans who's fault is that? Most foreigners are shit and I don't enjoy watching them play at all, I would rather watch B team koreans than watch 2 fucking nobody foreigners play.
What good would limiting the amount of koreans that can enter a tournament, if they only allow 8 koreans in and they all finish top 8, then what? disallow any koreans from entering and have a shit and boring low level tournament? I'd rather go and play a low level game myself, the whole point of spectating is to see the highest level of play and the extreme levels of skill displayed by these monster koreans you seem to hate.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
Yea you're right SC2 is fucked, that's why it saw an enormous growth last year. Good call.
A guy who wanted to watch people he could relate to win and play does not care at all about "good play" or the spirit of the game or whatever. They will not watch Korean dominated tournies
I don't want to live on this planet with you anymore.
I agree with this guy, I don't wanna live on this planet with you fucking idiots and your scrubby foreigners any more ....
I'm not sure this is "recent" (actually I am sure it's not) but any measures to restrict entry I do not think are a good idea. It is not right to compare SC2 to what the IOC does for example. The goal of the competition is not the same. WCG restricts entry and it makes sense for them, but not for tournaments in general. Most viewers don't care that much about the nationality, they just want to see the best players.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
Yea you're right SC2 is fucked, that's why it saw an enormous growth last year. Good call.
Last year western players had a chance, last year was the explosion of popularity. MLG Dallas was April 1-3 last year, almost exactly a year ago. Dallas was one of the first big western tournaments were western players won and people really got excited. The scene has been shrinking steadily since the start of Q4 2011, I expect it to really shrink this year, as the Koreans dominate and more and more viewers stop caring.
You need to remember the growth last year was the western market, and without western players winning that growth will evaporate. A guy who wanted to watch people he could relate to win and play does not care at all about "good play" or the spirit of the game or whatever. They will not watch Korean dominated tournies, the numbers reflect this, the audience is shrinking, and the sponsors are nervous.
Instead of complaining about Koreans, why don't you buy some EG t-shirts so they can spend more money training Huk and Idra?
The solution is to make foreign players better, not to ban Koreans.
I think the best course of action in order to handle the massive influx of Korean SCII players winning all the tournaments is to turn Korean. I did it around 19 years ago when I was born actually.
On April 11 2012 03:15 BigBossX wrote: What the hell is wrong with this thread and the people posting in it? What about just watching high level games, if foreigners cant keep up with koreans who's fault is that? Most foreigners are shit and I don't enjoy watching them play at all, I would rather watch B team koreans than watch 2 fucking nobody foreigners play.
What good would limiting the amount of koreans that can enter a tournament, if they only allow 8 koreans in and they all finish top 8, then what? disallow any koreans from entering and have a shit and boring low level tournament? I'd rather go and play a low level game myself, the whole point of spectating is to see the highest level of play and the extreme levels of skill displayed by these monster koreans you seem to hate.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
Yea you're right SC2 is fucked, that's why it saw an enormous growth last year. Good call.
A guy who wanted to watch people he could relate to win and play does not care at all about "good play" or the spirit of the game or whatever. They will not watch Korean dominated tournies
I don't want to live on this planet with you anymore.
I agree with this guy, I don't wanna live on this planet with you fucking idiots and your scrubby foreigners any more ....
The worst thing about this thread is the fact that people act like koreans have no personality, even though we have a few koreans that likes to please the crowds from time to time. Also add to the fact that there are alot of new koreans going to foreigner tournaments lately which is new to being outside of Korea, I believe most of em arent sure how to react on stage etc, give em time.
On April 11 2012 03:18 yomi wrote: I'm not sure this is "recent" (actually I am sure it's not) but any measures to restrict entry I do not think are a good idea. It is not right to compare SC2 to what the IOC does for example. The goal of the competition is not the same. WCG restricts entry and it makes sense for them, but not for tournaments in general. Most viewers don't care that much about the nationality, they just want to see the best players.
On April 11 2012 03:15 BigBossX wrote: What the hell is wrong with this thread and the people posting in it? What about just watching high level games, if foreigners cant keep up with koreans who's fault is that? Most foreigners are shit and I don't enjoy watching them play at all, I would rather watch B team koreans than watch 2 fucking nobody foreigners play.
What good would limiting the amount of koreans that can enter a tournament, if they only allow 8 koreans in and they all finish top 8, then what? disallow any koreans from entering and have a shit and boring low level tournament? I'd rather go and play a low level game myself, the whole point of spectating is to see the highest level of play and the extreme levels of skill displayed by these monster koreans you seem to hate.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way.
The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue.
There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene.
Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated.
Yea you're right SC2 is fucked, that's why it saw an enormous growth last year. Good call.
A guy who wanted to watch people he could relate to win and play does not care at all about "good play" or the spirit of the game or whatever. They will not watch Korean dominated tournies
I don't want to live on this planet with you anymore.
I agree with this guy, I don't wanna live on this planet with you fucking idiots and your scrubby foreigners any more ....
A prime example of a fucking idiot scrubby foreigner who can't comperhand the arguments of his peers (aka the "anti-koreans") and argues against a strawman argument which no one talked about. People have already explained, a thousand times, why having a ton of Koreans on foreign tournemants is bad, I have showed evidance to prove that the majority of the viewers want to see foreigners, David Ting himself said that having too many Koreans was a mistake.
Who are you to tell us what is the point of watching? Who are you to tell us wether we hate something, or someone, without trying to even understand what we tell you, a thousand times.
If there was a small gap between Koreans and the rest of the world, and there were many more Korean players than foreigner players, I may agree with a restriction on registration for foreign tournaments. But the way things currently stand, no way.
IPL4 was an outlier as far as foreign tournaments have gone. Most of them, I feel like, have had an equal mix of Korean and foreigner players. And yet the Ro8 and beyond is almost always exclusively Korean. If you had forced a certain percentage of players from specific regions, you'd have the BNet Invitational all over again, where the Koreans get to the finals, and the SEA and South American representatives drop out immediately. The best competition is one that involves the best players, period. We have a handful of foreigners (I think I could count them on one hand) that can compete regularly with Koreans. This is unacceptable. If foreign players want special treatment in foreign tournaments, then they need to get better. End of story. I love local favorites as much as the next person, but they need to prove themselves, not be invited because of their nationality. The same goes for foreigner seeds in the GSL...it just shouldn't be done.
where is people's evidence sc2 is dying because of korean dominance? if anything sc2 is dying because gamer attention spans are short. in NA no one plays on ladder anymore - the numbers have plummetted (i certainly don't). we've moved on. i don't watch sc2 anymore because i think deathball vs deathball is boring and stupid, and it does'nt give a chance for skilled players to be able to show their dominance. in bw, a pro could make a unit 10x better with micro. in sc2, you a-move.
the only thing that keeps sc2 remotely interesting is the actual skilled players (koreans) who can multi task and do multi prong harass.
so the racist xenophobes can stop pretending to speak for everyone else. people want to see the best players play.
On April 11 2012 03:18 yomi wrote: I'm not sure this is "recent" (actually I am sure it's not) but any measures to restrict entry I do not think are a good idea. It is not right to compare SC2 to what the IOC does for example. The goal of the competition is not the same. WCG restricts entry and it makes sense for them, but not for tournaments in general. Most viewers don't care that much about the nationality, they just want to see the best players.
So according to this link, the foreigners have much bigger fanclubs than any of the Koreans, as well as many more viewers on their streams.
This would mean, they'd get much higher income from sponsors enabling them to spend much more time perfecting their gameplay. Yet, somehow the Koreans in general are still far superior. Maybe it's time for the foreign teams to re-evaluate their training practices, since they don't spend their resources correctly.
In a community where e-sports is such a fundamental value, I cannot understand why there are some people that wants to limit Starcraft by "banning" out the competition. Competition is good for Starcraft and e-sports in general. The people that cannot comprehend this fact should just leave Starcraft, since you are hurting e-sports and the development of the game.
Lets take a look at the ones foreigners did win though (in 2011) that actually had koreans in it
Stephano won ESWC that only had MKP and MC HuK won MLG Orlando after winning his PvP bracket and then taking out MKP 2-0 and stc 2-1 and an extended series final 4-1 against MC Naniwa wins MLG Global Invitational, 2 koreans Idra wins Guanzhou after only having to play ONE korean, Puma, his team mate Stephano takes IPL3 after beating Inori, STC and Lucky HuK wins DH Winter, only having to play Moon twice, in bracket and finals, and July Thorzain wins TSL3, online tournament I think people complained about lag?
So besides Huk, Idra and Stephano, when are foreigners gonna step it up?
On April 11 2012 03:34 MoonfireSpam wrote: So if black guys were better at basketball, would you ban them?
Korean = Country. Black People = Race.
And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues.
Point taken. Can hate on countries.
Can you try and explain to me, in your words, what the people who are "anti-korean" actually say, and not your twisted, strawman version of what you think they say?
I just want to see if you are actually trying to understand us or not.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
Again I ask what happens when we start getting good foreign players who don't speak any english. Do we start othering brazilian players who only speak Portuguese? What if stephano could only speak french, does he no longer get to be a foreign hero because you can't connect to him due to langauge barrier? There are langauges in this world other than english, people comes from different cultures with different customs. Sometimes you will have to see people who are not like you.
Also in a sense a lot of the scene is essentially appropriating heros from other countries. Naniwa has been quite clear that while he appreciates having fans from everywhere his swedish fans mean the most to him. He doesn't respond often to fans on twitter but when he does it's usually to those tweeting to him in swedish. Hell he's skipping what is almost garunteed money for him at mlg to go to dreamhack because it means that much to him.
If you're not swedish and you like him only because he's good and not korean than you are being predjudiced. You are not actually relating to your idol because there's more to being Naniwa than just " normal guy who's good at the game."
Which isn't to say that someone can't be non swedish and be a genuine fan but that people like that are invested in Naniwa for a variety of reasons and have taken the time to know as much about him as they can.
IDK this generic " anyone but a korean" attitude is so god damned offensive to so many different people.
On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote: people want to see the best players play.
Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that?
On April 11 2012 03:34 MoonfireSpam wrote: So if black guys were better at basketball, would you ban them?
Korean = Country. Black People = Race.
And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues.
so by your logic we should ban African Americans from playing in Olympics basketball they are too good?
or the Chinese from Olympic weightlifting?
or white people from swimming?
Nope, that's your logic
In all of these other games, the "smaller leagues" have enough support of their own, and they also have a lot of viewers, compared to the difference in skill levels, so there's no need for that, when people want to watch big hype games of "local heroes" they have that, and when they want to watch the peak of gameplay, they can also watch that, just like in any normal sport (which, considering the name "eSport", is what we should be trying to emulate).
For example - Israeli soccer is terrible, I don't think that we qualified for anything, anywhere, for the last 15 years, however, during our recent yearly league, an underdog team of a club from a relatively small town managed to win it all, there were headlines on all of the newspapers, there were celebrations, there were 20,000+ people in the stadium that day.
And why is that? Because it means something to us Isralies, the team that won will probably never, ever get anything done in the european level, but for us it is a big deal.
There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play.
On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote: people want to see the best players play.
Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that?
Most Code S Koreands do not get enough exposure. Tyler has been streaming forever and he is on SoTG & other shows etc., 99% Code S Koreans JUST started streaming recently.
btw what you said is not 100% accurate. When MKP streamed he pulled in tons of viewers too, somebody could pull up the exact numbers but I can't atm.
Korean generally do have a more agressive play style, as it sticks out to me. This has always been the case, I remember Broodwar where Koreans were playing insanely agressive (massive dropping, going for small victories) and winning all over.
Stephano, Huk and a few other seems to be one of the few that realy know ho to adapt this style to their own. While in tournament play, time and time again I see foreigners play it out overly safe, which might just cost them the game.
On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote: people want to see the best players play.
Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that?
So by your logic, if two platinum players had higher stream viewers than two GM players, you'd prefer to watch them play?
In tournaments, I definetly say we want to see the best of the best. It's really simple, the best wins. And that's why limiting tournaments just because Koreans are better is really an ackward argument. Even if they don't have as big a follower group as us, we still want to see the best in the bigger tournaments.
Also, many of those players you have mentioned have been streaming a very long time, thus enabling them to gather a very big group of followers.
There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play.
Then the international scene needs to set up a tournament structure that roughly goes from amateur ---> semipro ---> national ---> continental ---> world instead of the current scattered scene. One of the main problems with the SC2 scene is that it is simply a collection of organizations and interests competing against each other for viewership and money. I've already said in other threads that this will be the death of "e-sports" in the western scene, not Korean dominance.
There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play.
Then the international scene needs to set up a tournament structure that roughly goes from amateur ---> semipro ---> national ---> continental ---> world instead of the current scattered scene.
but let's no kid ourselves nobody would watch the amateur to continental tournaments (How many watched The Gathering?)
that's like saying tons of people watch the WNBA (rofl).
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
Again I ask what happens when we start getting good foreign players who don't speak any english. Do we start othering brazilian players who only speak Portuguese? What if stephano could only speak french, does he no longer get to be a foreign hero because you can't connect to him due to langauge barrier? There are langauges in this world other than english, people comes from different cultures with different customs. Sometimes you will have to see people who are not like you.
Also in a sense a lot of the scene is essentially appropriating heros from other countries. Naniwa has been quite clear that while he appreciates having fans from everywhere his swedish fans mean the most to him. He doesn't respond often to fans on twitter but when he does it's usually to those tweeting to him in swedish. Hell he's skipping what is almost garunteed money for him at mlg to go to dreamhack because it means that much to him.
If you're not swedish and you like him only because he's good and not korean than you are being predjudiced. You are not actually relating to your idol because there's more to being Naniwa than just " normal guy who's good at the game."
Which isn't to say that someone can't be non swedish and be a genuine fan but that people like that are invested in Naniwa for a variety of reasons and have taken the time to know as much about him as they can.
IDK this generic " anyone but a korean" attitude is so god damned offensive to so many different people.
Why do you think Naniwa has far fewer fans than IdrA, Stephano, and HuK? It's precisely because of his attitude, which includes what you just posted. That said, the reason people appropriate heroes from other countries is because foreigner vs. Korean is the rivalry that stands out in SC 2 - NA vs. EU works just as well, but because Korean vs. foreigner is the bigger rivalry, it doesn't feature.
It's these rivalries - and their ability to attract spectators to throw down their personal stakes in them - that give sports events meaning and popularity beyond the game itself - which, in SC 2's case, isn't all that great.
I actually am going to agree with the OP's point. We need to have foreigners in tournaments, Starcraft isn't cock-fighting. You need to have personality, and just as much as an opponents starcraft gets involved into whether you cheer for them or not, it is the exact same for if their nationality, why not let some nationalism and patriotism get involved?
It would make the tournaments a lot more interesting for me at least, I prefer to watch someone like Nerchio/White-ra/Mana/Thorzain play someone like Alive as opposed to watching Leenock vs Polt, even though the skill level of the second game is higher.
Korea vs Foreigners has been the biggest story line in SC2 history, and now when we have players like Alive and Nestea who lack all personality, it feels like watching robots play to me. And that is not what I'm after, just as how sport fans do the same.
On April 11 2012 03:34 MoonfireSpam wrote: So if black guys were better at basketball, would you ban them?
Korean = Country. Black People = Race.
And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues.
so by your logic we should ban African Americans from playing in Olympics basketball they are too good?
or the Chinese from Olympic weightlifting?
or white people from swimming?
Nope, that's your logic
In all of these other games, the "smaller leagues" have enough support of their own, and they also have a lot of viewers, compared to the difference in skill levels, so there's no need for that, when people want to watch big hype games of "local heroes" they have that, and when they want to watch the peak of gameplay, they can also watch that, just like in any normal sport (which, considering the name "eSport", is what we should be trying to emulate).
For example - Israeli soccer is terrible, I don't think that we qualified for anything, anywhere, for the last 15 years, however, during our recent yearly league, an underdog team of a club from a relatively small town managed to win it all, there were headlines on all of the newspapers, there were celebrations, there were 20,000+ people in the stadium that day.
And why is that? Because it means something to us Isralies, the team that won will probably never, ever get anything done in the european level, but for us it is a big deal.
There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play.
This is why you have smaller local tournaments. An example I know of is "Copenhagen Games" where there were no Korean entrants as far as I can see. And you'd be able to see the Danish players as well as some from other European countries. Of course, this requires someone to arrange these events. Maybe you should do that in your area...
As you can see, Koreans are not entering every tournament. And what people, including myself is against, is the fact that people want to limit MAJOR tournamants (or at least that is the impression we get from reading this thread). Major tournaments should be won by the best, therefore limiting them in any way would just be ridiculous.
On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote: people want to see the best players play.
Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that?
So by your logic, if two platinum players had higher stream viewers than two GM players, you'd prefer to watch them play?
In tournaments, I definetly say we want to see the best of the best. It's really simple, the best wins. And that's why limiting tournaments just because Koreans are better is really an ackward argument. Even if they don't have as big a follower group as us, we still want to see the best in the bigger tournaments.
Also, many of those players you have mentioned have been streaming a very long time, thus enabling them to gather a very big group of followers.
Refrain from we when you mean me. Tournaments and streams are two sides of the same coin - you don't go from watching IdrA stream to not watching him in tournaments. Fans follow players, which is why a tournament featuring IdrA crushing a bunch of Platinums gets a huge number of views, but a bunch of Platinums crushing each other gets none.
On April 11 2012 04:00 FiWiFaKi wrote: I actually am going to agree with the OP's point. We need to have foreigners in tournaments, Starcraft isn't cock-fighting. You need to have personality, and just as much as an opponents starcraft gets involved into whether you cheer for them or not, it is the exact same for if their nationality, why not let some nationalism and patriotism get involved?
It would make the tournaments a lot more interesting for me at least, I prefer to watch someone like Nerchio/White-ra/Mana/Thorzain play someone like Alive as opposed to watching Leenock vs Polt, even though the skill level of the second game is higher.
Korea vs Foreigners has been the biggest story line in SC2 history, and now when we have players like Alive and Nestea who lack all personality, it feels like watching robots play to me. And that is not what I'm after, just as how sport fans do the same.
Of those you listed only White-ra has personality, and I am sorry to say but he will get utterly demolished by aLive, heck, any Code B Korean, it's not even remotely entertaining to watch. Right now watching foreigners vs. Koreans is like watching a middle school bully fighting Mike Tyson. I would much rather watch Ali vs. Tyson even if both of them lack personalities or happened to be gigantic assholes.
The reason Korean pros lack personality is b/c they can't speak English. I really think they need to take English classes for the good of eSports. But that means translators will be out of work! Poor Smix
On April 11 2012 03:34 MoonfireSpam wrote: So if black guys were better at basketball, would you ban them?
Korean = Country. Black People = Race.
And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues.
so by your logic we should ban African Americans from playing in Olympics basketball they are too good?
or the Chinese from Olympic weightlifting?
or white people from swimming?
Nope, that's your logic
In all of these other games, the "smaller leagues" have enough support of their own, and they also have a lot of viewers, compared to the difference in skill levels, so there's no need for that, when people want to watch big hype games of "local heroes" they have that, and when they want to watch the peak of gameplay, they can also watch that, just like in any normal sport (which, considering the name "eSport", is what we should be trying to emulate).
For example - Israeli soccer is terrible, I don't think that we qualified for anything, anywhere, for the last 15 years, however, during our recent yearly league, an underdog team of a club from a relatively small town managed to win it all, there were headlines on all of the newspapers, there were celebrations, there were 20,000+ people in the stadium that day.
And why is that? Because it means something to us Isralies, the team that won will probably never, ever get anything done in the european level, but for us it is a big deal.
There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play.
This is why you have smaller local tournaments. An example I know of is "Copenhagen Games" where there were no Korean entrants as far as I can see. And you'd be able to see the Danish players as well as some from other European countries. Of course, this requires someone to arrange these events. Maybe you should do that in your area...
As you can see, Koreans are not entering every tournament. And what people, including myself is against, is the fact that people want to limit MAJOR tournamants (or at least that is the impression we get from reading this thread). Major tournaments should be won by the best, therefore limiting them in any way would just be ridiculous.
Why will it be ridiculous? Again, the most watched american event was Orlando, it didn't have the best quality of games, it didn't have the most Koreans, it had the most interesting storyline with Huk winning. The only people who are hurt, short term, from having less (notice - i've said less, not no) Koreans are: The specific Korean players who would've got top 8/16. The "Hardcore" fans who only want to watch amazing games everywhere, even while they have the GSL for that. While people who get hurt are - the majority of the fans.
Now... long term: All of the Koreans get hurt due to the scene imploding. All of the hardcore fans, due to the scene imploding. All of the casual fans, due to the scene imploding.
What's ridiculous is doing something that is against the long term benefit of yourself, of your scene, of everybody who loves starcraft.
It should go like this: Premier league - GSL, with no Foreign seeds. Major leagues - DH, IEM, MLG, IPL and so on, allow Koreans but limit them to around 8. Minor tournemants - like the gathering and so on, it wouldn't matter if you ban Koreans or not because they won't come anyway. Dailies/Weeklies - Like Playhem, Go4SC2, should be region based, AKA, no Koreans in NA Playhem, because that stunts the growth of local players.
There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play.
Then the international scene needs to set up a tournament structure that roughly goes from amateur ---> semipro ---> national ---> continental ---> world instead of the current scattered scene.
but let's no kid ourselves nobody would watch the amateur to continental tournaments (How many watched The Gathering?)
that's like saying tons of people watch the WNBA (rofl).
A lot of people didn't watch the Gathering because it occurred over the same weekend as IPL4, as did Copenhagen Games and Medion Trophy. This just further proves my point: there is no comprehensible reason why all these tournaments should be playing at the same time and forcing viewers to choose between them.
LOL don't be stupid. Ever heard of March Madness, D-league, NBA, the Olympic national team? Every successful sport in history has an identifiable structure by which you can trace the bottom level to the top level. College basketball certainly wasn't pushed by the same forces that created the NBA, but that is the appeal. They all have different audiences and there is no need to compete with each other for fans since one can be a fan at all levels for entirely different reasons. But we don't have any of this for SC2.
On April 11 2012 04:00 FiWiFaKi wrote: [...]and now when we have players like Alive and Nestea who lack all personality, it feels like watching robots play to me. [...]
In your eyes it's lack of personality, in others it's just Korean culture. If you knew a bit about how cultures work you'd understand.
But personality doesn't really change the fact that they are better and wins tournaments.
Do you like the personalities of all the top athletes in the world? I suppose you probably don't. But then again, what are you going to do against that?
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
Ok lets try this.
concern 1 . We can't relate to the koreans ! * Already disproven by multiple people in multiple posts. It is entirely possible to relate to people outside your own culture. NA probably has the largest casual fanbase and the least Pros capable of showing off impressive games. Chances are the last foreigner in a tournament will be european and/ or currently training in korea. Most of the time the primary language of that player will not be english. Even if they speak english it will not always be entirely smooth becuase of different grammar structures etc (ex. naniwa. white-ra, stephano). While not racist saying " I only want to cheer for people who're like me" is certainly predjudiced and false since the average new yorker probably has nothing in common with Mana or Bling or Kas etc. Casual fans like that are creating their own boundaries on who they feel they can relate to. If we suddenly get a slew of foreign pros from idk south america who can win major tournaments but need a translator because they don't speak english I highly doubt they will be embraced by all. The world VS korea nonsense gives an illusion of a united western scene but such a thing does not exist.
Concern 2. We want to see a variety of players ! * So do I, which means not seeing the same few foreign hopes trotted out at every tournament. However that requires the pro scenes of different regions to produce players who can actually qualify for events. . Limiting how many players can come from each region will almost always lead to only the same players coming from each region. Even if you hold qualifiers, NA will almost always end up being HuK, Idra, Select etc. EU would have to split into mini regions but would predictaly be a zerg like ret, morrow or nerchio, a toss like Naniwa, Mana or Sase, and a terran like Thorzain, Tarson or Kas. Korea would actually have the most fluid roster since they have a wider amount of top level pros who can all beat each other on any given day.
Also the scene is currently not set up to have such a system because all our tournaments are run by different leagues. It'd be awkward if one league introduced region limits and others didn't. Then you basically split the fanbase between those who want equal representation and those who want to see the best play out of people who legit earned thier way into a tournament. teams then also have to choose which competitions to send their players too and how that looks to the general public. Plus you know most foreign teams have atleast one korean player now, I'm sure it'd be great if liquid was like " Hey guys we're taking everyone to mlg for open bracket but um Hero and Zenio and Taeja becuase you see we can't have too many koreans."
Concern 3 All koreans is boring to watch! * This is subjective and it depends on the players in question. If you fill a tournament with drg, mc, mma, mkp etc even casual people will like it becuase they like those players and their playstyles.
Concern 4 We can't qualify becuase we can't get through open bracket! * Tough cookies, a qualifier like open bracket weeds out the weak, if foreign players can't get through then they didn't deserve to be there anyways. How many god damned times did people bitch about incontrol going 0-5 in groups at mlg because he could not keep up with what was still mostly just other foreign players and a handful of koreans. Limiting how many koreans can play in qualifers and open brackets would only lead to more awkward situations where someone undeserving makes it to groups and gets facerolled. Huk and Sase almost made it to pool play at IPl4 and they took down several koreans to do so. If we redid that open bracket multiple times there's a good chance some of those times they'd get through becuase they've proven capable of consistent high level play. However this time they failed, it's not the end of the world.
concern 5. There are more casual fans we deserve to be the biggest voice! * Dosen't matter, especially as tournaments move towards more sustainable revenue types. Hardcore watchers are more likely to pay for HD, vods, multiple cameras so they can watch from a pros pov etc. Being the majority does not make you more important and doesn't even garuntee that you contribute the most to the community despite having more people to do so with.
Here are some actualy numbers, not your opinion based on a vocal part (maybe majority, maybe not) of a site that at most includes 25% of the SC2 viewerbase (probably around 10%, during IPL4 there were 180,000 live views on the streams while only 17,000 people were on TL).
I'm unsure as to your point here. I know people like watching foreigners. I like watching and cheering for foreigners. That still doesn't tell me why tournaments should start doing region limiting for all the reasons I pointed out before. It's going to limit variety more than we already get, it puts teams in awkward situations etc etc.
Wanting more visible foreign players is not a problematic view. Attempting to enforce it via region limiting is, especially when the majority of the money is in big international tournaments.
Honestly a more unified and organized starcraft scene is needed to sort this thing out. There needs to be more tournaments at the local level that allow players to compete for fame within their region more readily. Hell I think between gsl, ksl and esv weeklies korea may have the most steady group of recurring tournaments that keep players active and motivated. More stuff like that would appeal to casual watchers and be on at better hours for each locale.
Big tournaments though I still feel those should be merit based. It may suck to see Huk fall short of pool play but I just can't honestly say I feel comfortable letting in weaker players over stronger ones. Does it not invalidate a win a little when you know you didn't face as hard a challenge as you could have. Even idra was less proud of his iem win where all he faced was puma then his orlando placement where he went toe to toe with bomber and came out ahead.
Also an IP4 situation is not likely to happen again. Korean teams do not have the money to fly out thier whole team to play in open brakcets whenever they want. there is already naturally limiting factors to how many korean players will be at any given tournament.
There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play.
Then the international scene needs to set up a tournament structure that roughly goes from amateur ---> semipro ---> national ---> continental ---> world instead of the current scattered scene.
but let's no kid ourselves nobody would watch the amateur to continental tournaments (How many watched The Gathering?)
that's like saying tons of people watch the WNBA (rofl).
A lot of people didn't watch the Gathering because it occurred over the same weekend as IPL4, as did Copenhagen Games and Medion Trophy. This just further proves my point: there is no comprehensible reason why all these tournaments should be playing at the same time and forcing viewers to choose between them.
LOL don't be stupid. Ever heard of March Madness, D-league, the Olympic national team? Every successful sport in history has an identifiable structure by which you can trace the bottom level to the top level. College basketball certainly wasn't pushed by the same forces that created the NBA, but that is the appeal.
Of course I have heard of them. I am just saying at the current level most Foreign pros are like WNBA players while Korean pros are NBA players. Naniwa, Huk, Stephano, IdrA (maybe if all the stars aligned) are college men basketballers.
Again, nobody likes to watch the WNBA (besides women I guess), which was my point.
So you guys would seriously rather watch low level foreign play than top level Korean play because you can "relate" to crappy foreigners, or because underdog stories are nice?
Or because lack of foreigners are killing the SC2 scene? Not the emergence of other PC titles like LoL? It's lack of foreigners?
Seriously... TL come on now. I come here for intelligent discussion...
I'm a Destiny fan. Do I think Koreans should be banned from tournaments just so I can see him play at the IPL group stages or whatever? Hell no. There will still be smaller tournaments which only few Koreans will attend, the various european tournaments like Homestory Cup for example. Watch those if you wanna see your favorite players. If they do decide to compete with the best of the best at the biggest tournaments and get crushed, it's their fault. You can't just ban Koreans for that, of course they're gonna attend tournaments with huge opportunities in money and prestige and they should, because they work hard as hell for exactly that. Your logic is off if you think that restricting tournaments so more foreigners play in them will benefit eSports at all. If anything, this will result in less prestige upon winning those tournaments, less prize money because less competition AND fewer viewers. There's a reason why the GSL stream and website completely crashed during the finals - it's because most people wanna see the best of the best.
On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote: people want to see the best players play.
Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that?
So by your logic, if two platinum players had higher stream viewers than two GM players, you'd prefer to watch them play?
In tournaments, I definetly say we want to see the best of the best. It's really simple, the best wins. And that's why limiting tournaments just because Koreans are better is really an ackward argument. Even if they don't have as big a follower group as us, we still want to see the best in the bigger tournaments.
Also, many of those players you have mentioned have been streaming a very long time, thus enabling them to gather a very big group of followers.
Don't say we when you mean me. Tournaments and streams are two sides of the same coin - you don't go from watching IdrA stream to not watching him in tournaments. Fans follow players, which is why a tournament featuring IdrA crushing a bunch of Platinums gets a huge number of views, but a bunch of Platinums crushing each other gets none.
First of all you didn't really answer my question.
Second, yes I used "we", because if I made a poll I'm pretty sure the majority of the Starcraft community would prefer to watch the best of the best in the major tournaments instead of watching two mediocre players.
Also, you can follow your national "hero" in a tournament but that doesn't mean you cannot enjoy the rest of it just because your "hero" didn't win it all. For example, when Denmark enters the World Cup, I don't expect them to win (even though it would be nice), yet I can still watch the finals even though Denmark is not playing.
Hm. The way I see it, right now we are in a very special phase of sc2 where the competition truly is international. But, it's temporary and everyone knows it. The gap is widening and at some point the time when a foreigner could make a sweet run for the money in a tournament full of S-class koreans will be seen as a parenthesis in the history of sc2. That's one of the reasons I cheer for foreigners, I really do enjoy the international style competition we have right now with people travelling all over the world and people from so many nations competing in sc2. I hope for the foreigners to do well, because that in itself extends the period in which we get to see this sort of competition.
When the odds of the very best foreigners beating B-teamers starts approaching null as was the case in broodwar, I fully expect there to be foreigner only or region limited tournaments and leagues. I don't really mind it though, because personally I loved TSL and proleague almost equally, but what we have right now is better. Enjoy it while it lasts.
On April 11 2012 04:11 Flonomenalz wrote: So you guys would seriously rather watch low level foreign play than top level Korean play because you can "relate" to crappy foreigners, or because underdog stories are nice?
Or because lack of foreigners are killing the SC2 scene? Not the emergence of other PC titles like LoL? It's lack of foreigners?
Seriously... TL come on now. I come here for intelligent discussion...
These words could be coming from my heart. The suggestion by the OP is not thought out at all.
There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play.
Then the international scene needs to set up a tournament structure that roughly goes from amateur ---> semipro ---> national ---> continental ---> world instead of the current scattered scene.
but let's no kid ourselves nobody would watch the amateur to continental tournaments (How many watched The Gathering?)
that's like saying tons of people watch the WNBA (rofl).
A lot of people didn't watch the Gathering because it occurred over the same weekend as IPL4, as did Copenhagen Games and Medion Trophy. This just further proves my point: there is no comprehensible reason why all these tournaments should be playing at the same time and forcing viewers to choose between them.
LOL don't be stupid. Ever heard of March Madness, D-league, the Olympic national team? Every successful sport in history has an identifiable structure by which you can trace the bottom level to the top level. College basketball certainly wasn't pushed by the same forces that created the NBA, but that is the appeal.
Of course I have heard of them. I am just saying at the current level most Foreign pros are like WNBA players while Korean pros are NBA players. Naniwa, Huk, Stephano, IdrA (maybe if all the stars aligned) are college men basketballers.
Again, nobody likes to watch the WNBA (besides women I guess), which was my point.
The NBA is as far ahead of the WNBA as the NBA is ahead of college basketball. So I guess every foreigner is a WNBA player?
People like to watch college basketball despite the fact that most college players get murdered in the NBA. The difference is college basketball is not trying to promote itself as an alternative to the NBA, a position which the WNBA will always be in.
On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote: people want to see the best players play.
Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that?
So by your logic, if two platinum players had higher stream viewers than two GM players, you'd prefer to watch them play?
In tournaments, I definetly say we want to see the best of the best. It's really simple, the best wins. And that's why limiting tournaments just because Koreans are better is really an ackward argument. Even if they don't have as big a follower group as us, we still want to see the best in the bigger tournaments.
Also, many of those players you have mentioned have been streaming a very long time, thus enabling them to gather a very big group of followers.
Don't say we when you mean me. Tournaments and streams are two sides of the same coin - you don't go from watching IdrA stream to not watching him in tournaments. Fans follow players, which is why a tournament featuring IdrA crushing a bunch of Platinums gets a huge number of views, but a bunch of Platinums crushing each other gets none.
First of all you didn't really answer my question.
Second, yes I used "we", because if I made a poll I'm pretty sure the majority of the Starcraft community would prefer to watch the best of the best in the major tournaments instead of watching two mediocre players.
Also, you can follow your national "hero" in a tournament but that doesn't mean you cannot enjoy the rest of it just because your "hero" didn't win it all. For example, when Denmark enters the World Cup, I don't expect them to win (even though it would be nice), yet I can still watch the finals even though Denmark is not playing.
Go for it, make that poll, post it on TL, Reddit, /V/, EG's site, Mouz's site, pretty much the site of every team, every eSports site, ask Day[9] to post it, ask Tastosis to post it, go for IEM, DH, IPL, MLG and so on.
This will be the best for this discussion, wouldn't it?
And again - evidance are against you, check the popular streamers, they are not Korean, check out the fan clubs (on the hardcore TL site!) - the biggest ones are not Korean, neither are most of the medium scale ones, which MLGs are the most watched? Foreigner wins over Koreans, same for IPL, same for IEM, same for everyone, even gomtv.
On April 11 2012 04:11 Flonomenalz wrote: So you guys would seriously rather watch low level foreign play than top level Korean play because you can "relate" to crappy foreigners, or because underdog stories are nice?
Or because lack of foreigners are killing the SC2 scene? Not the emergence of other PC titles like LoL? It's lack of foreigners?
Seriously... TL come on now. I come here for intelligent discussion...
No, you didn't, you came here to find other people with similar viewpoints, and that you can discuss stuff that interests you.
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
Ok lets try this.
concern 1 . We can't relate to the koreans ! * Already disproven by multiple people in multiple posts. It is entirely possible to relate to people outside your own culture. NA probably has the largest casual fanbase and the least Pros capable of showing off impressive games. Chances are the last foreigner in a tournament will be european and/ or currently training in korea. Most of the time the primary language of that player will not be english. Even if they speak english it will not always be entirely smooth becuase of different grammar structures etc (ex. naniwa. white-ra, stephano). While not racist saying " I only want to cheer for people who're like me" is certainly predjudiced and false since the average new yorker probably has nothing in common with Mana or Bling or Kas etc. Casual fans like that are creating their own boundaries on who they feel they can relate to. If we suddenly get a slew of foreign pros from idk south america who can win major tournaments but need a translator because they don't speak english I highly doubt they will be embraced by all. The world VS korea nonsense gives an illusion of a united western scene but such a thing does not exist.
Concern 2. We want to see a variety of players ! * So do I, which means not seeing the same few foreign hopes trotted out at every tournament. However that requires the pro scenes of different regions to produce players who can actually qualify for events. . Limiting how many players can come from each region will almost always lead to only the same players coming from each region. Even if you hold qualifiers, NA will almost always end up being HuK, Idra, Select etc. EU would have to split into mini regions but would predictaly be a zerg like ret, morrow or nerchio, a toss like Naniwa, Mana or Sase, and a terran like Thorzain, Tarson or Kas. Korea would actually have the most fluid roster since they have a wider amount of top level pros who can all beat each other on any given day.
Also the scene is currently not set up to have such a system because all our tournaments are run by different leagues. It'd be awkward if one league introduced region limits and others didn't. Then you basically split the fanbase between those who want equal representation and those who want to see the best play out of people who legit earned thier way into a tournament. teams then also have to choose which competitions to send their players too and how that looks to the general public. Plus you know most foreign teams have atleast one korean player now, I'm sure it'd be great if liquid was like " Hey guys we're taking everyone to mlg for open bracket but um Hero and Zenio and Taeja becuase you see we can't have too many koreans."
Concern 3 All koreans is boring to watch! * This is subjective and it depends on the players in question. If you fill a tournament with drg, mc, mma, mkp etc even casual people will like it becuase they like those players and their playstyles.
Concern 4 We can't qualify becuase we can't get through open bracket! * Tough cookies, a qualifier like open bracket weeds out the weak, if foreign players can't get through then they didn't deserve to be there anyways. How many god damned times did people bitch about incontrol going 0-5 in groups at mlg because he could not keep up with what was still mostly just other foreign players and a handful of koreans. Limiting how many koreans can play in qualifers and open brackets would only lead to more awkward situations where someone undeserving makes it to groups and gets facerolled. Huk and Sase almost made it to pool play at IPl4 and they took down several koreans to do so. If we redid that open bracket multiple times there's a good chance some of those times they'd get through becuase they've proven capable of consistent high level play. However this time they failed, it's not the end of the world.
concern 5. There are more casual fans we deserve to be the biggest voice! * Dosen't matter, especially as tournaments move towards more sustainable revenue types. Hardcore watchers are more likely to pay for HD, vods, multiple cameras so they can watch from a pros pov etc. Being the majority does not make you more important and doesn't even garuntee that you contribute the most to the community despite having more people to do so with.
Here are some actualy numbers, not your opinion based on a vocal part (maybe majority, maybe not) of a site that at most includes 25% of the SC2 viewerbase (probably around 10%, during IPL4 there were 180,000 live views on the streams while only 17,000 people were on TL).
I'm unsure as to your point here. I know people like watching foreigners. I like watching and cheering for foreigners. That still doesn't tell me why tournaments should start doing region limiting for all the reasons I pointed out before. It's going to limit variety more than we already get, it puts teams in awkward situations etc etc.
Wanting more visible foreign players is not a problematic view. Attempting to enforce it via region limiting is, especially when the majority of the money is in big international tournaments.
Honestly a more unified and organized starcraft scene is needed to sort this thing out. There needs to be more tournaments at the local level that allow players to compete for fame within their region more readily. HellI think betwen gsl, ksl and esv weeklies korea may have the most steady group of recurring tournaments that keep players active and motivated. More stuff like that would appeal to casual watchers and be on at better hours for each locale.
Big tournaments though I still feel those should be merit based. It may suck to see Huk fall short of pool play but I just can't honestly say I feel comfortable letting in weaker players over stronger ones. Does it not invalidate a win a little when you know you didn't face as hard a challenge as you could have. even idra was less proud of his iem win where all he faced was puma then his orlando placement where he went toe to toe with bomber and came out ahead.
Also an IP4 situation is not likely to happen again. Korean teams do not have the money to fly out thier whole team to play in open brakcets whenever they want. there is already naturally limiting factors to how many korean players will be at any given tournament.
Region limiting tournaments has a number of positives and negatives. Lowering diversity is not, however, one of its negatives.
Region limiting has the following effects on tournament organization:
* It promotes diversity. Having 16 Koreans is not diversity. Having 4 Koreans, 4 Americans, 4 Europeans, and 4 Southeast Asians is diversity.
* It lowers costs. With 16 Koreans, tournament organizers in NA and EU have to intercontinentally fly in every single one of its players. With 4 Americans, however, they don't.
* It gives viewers all over the world home favorites to cheer for, and gives a global feel to the event.
It has the following drawbacks:
* It lowers the average level of play.
* It is not strictly meritocratic.
A middle ground solution for major weekend tournaments is, I think, to reserve a larger number of spots for Koreans - ie 30-40% instead of 25% - and to structure brackets such that Korean vs. foreigner matches happen throughout the course of the weekend.
On April 11 2012 03:34 MoonfireSpam wrote: So if black guys were better at basketball, would you ban them?
Korean = Country. Black People = Race.
And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues.
so by your logic we should ban African Americans from playing in Olympics basketball they are too good?
or the Chinese from Olympic weightlifting?
or white people from swimming?
Nope, that's your logic
In all of these other games, the "smaller leagues" have enough support of their own, and they also have a lot of viewers, compared to the difference in skill levels, so there's no need for that, when people want to watch big hype games of "local heroes" they have that, and when they want to watch the peak of gameplay, they can also watch that, just like in any normal sport (which, considering the name "eSport", is what we should be trying to emulate).
For example - Israeli soccer is terrible, I don't think that we qualified for anything, anywhere, for the last 15 years, however, during our recent yearly league, an underdog team of a club from a relatively small town managed to win it all, there were headlines on all of the newspapers, there were celebrations, there were 20,000+ people in the stadium that day.
And why is that? Because it means something to us Isralies, the team that won will probably never, ever get anything done in the european level, but for us it is a big deal.
There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play.
This is why you have smaller local tournaments. An example I know of is "Copenhagen Games" where there were no Korean entrants as far as I can see. And you'd be able to see the Danish players as well as some from other European countries. Of course, this requires someone to arrange these events. Maybe you should do that in your area...
As you can see, Koreans are not entering every tournament. And what people, including myself is against, is the fact that people want to limit MAJOR tournamants (or at least that is the impression we get from reading this thread). Major tournaments should be won by the best, therefore limiting them in any way would just be ridiculous.
Why will it be ridiculous? Again, the most watched american event was Orlando, it didn't have the best quality of games, it didn't have the most Koreans, it had the most interesting storyline with Huk winning. The only people who are hurt, short term, from having less (notice - i've said less, not no) Koreans are: The specific Korean players who would've got top 8/16. The "Hardcore" fans who only want to watch amazing games everywhere, even while they have the GSL for that. While people who get hurt are - the majority of the fans.
Now... long term: All of the Koreans get hurt due to the scene imploding. All of the hardcore fans, due to the scene imploding. All of the casual fans, due to the scene imploding.
What's ridiculous is doing something that is against the long term benefit of yourself, of your scene, of everybody who loves starcraft.
It should go like this: Premier league - GSL, with no Foreign seeds. Major leagues - DH, IEM, MLG, IPL and so on, allow Koreans but limit them to around 8. Minor tournemants - like the gathering and so on, it wouldn't matter if you ban Koreans or not because they won't come anyway. Dailies/Weeklies - Like Playhem, Go4SC2, should be region based, AKA, no Koreans in NA Playhem, because that stunts the growth of local players.
I do agree that the e-sports scene should get much more organized (someone have written about this a bit earlier as well), in terms of having something like world championships, national championships etc. But I'm against banning someone out of a competition solely based on their nationality, since that is discrimination.
Something like a National Championship, where only teams of that nation could enter, could be nice for those people following their national "heroes". Whether or not an American team have acquired Koreans to play for them shouldn't matter though (Just as for example football teams acquire foreign players).
But a discussion about expanding and organizing the e-sports scene is a whole other discussion compared to what this thread is...
IPL and MLG already noticed that they need more regional qualifiers for their events or else people lose interest. IEM does it right except that they didn't have Korean/Asian Qualifiers.
I think the people who keep making sports analogies fall short of their point. It's not because they argued their point badly, but because there is an inherent limitation in using analogies: apples are not oranges.
Sports thrive on a local scene because they need physical presence in that particular scene. The players, despite their training, are also figures in a community that everyone in a town has probably seen or met at least once. This doesn't quite ring true for computer games, because of the nature of the internet. Thus, physical sports will always be more "localized" than computer games.
Now as to the general arguments... while for the short term it would appear that limiting Korean participation would give more chances for foreigners to win, it would do nothing for the long term. Foreigners don't need to win more, they need to get better. 10th place at a tourney with 16 Koreans is far more impressive than getting 3rd with only 2 Koreans in the mix. Foreigners need to step up. And it's not the infrastructure that needs changing, it's the culture. The culture of practice, of work ethic, of replay analysis and experimentation - all of that is present in the current Korean infrastructure but would not have been possible if not for the hard-working culture the Koreans embraced due to their past as a 3rd world country. And for the claims that the non-Koreans pros practice does not pay off as much as Korean practice does, I can say this with certainty: most pros already practice on the Korean server. That argument is worth little in the light of Battlenet 2.0 and the corresponding globalization of electronic sports. That's the beauty of e-sports, there are no borders.
And I don't know about you, but I'd like to keep things that way.
that's like saying, bro everyone from brazil dominates brazilian jiu jitsu and we gotta do something about this. almost no one beats them!
well no shit man, it's everyone else's fault for not caring as much and not putting as much effort. they deserve to win, just like the koreans do, because they put in the work.
On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote: people want to see the best players play.
Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that?
So by your logic, if two platinum players had higher stream viewers than two GM players, you'd prefer to watch them play?
In tournaments, I definetly say we want to see the best of the best. It's really simple, the best wins. And that's why limiting tournaments just because Koreans are better is really an ackward argument. Even if they don't have as big a follower group as us, we still want to see the best in the bigger tournaments.
Also, many of those players you have mentioned have been streaming a very long time, thus enabling them to gather a very big group of followers.
Don't say we when you mean me. Tournaments and streams are two sides of the same coin - you don't go from watching IdrA stream to not watching him in tournaments. Fans follow players, which is why a tournament featuring IdrA crushing a bunch of Platinums gets a huge number of views, but a bunch of Platinums crushing each other gets none.
First of all you didn't really answer my question.
Second, yes I used "we", because if I made a poll I'm pretty sure the majority of the Starcraft community would prefer to watch the best of the best in the major tournaments instead of watching two mediocre players.
Also, you can follow your national "hero" in a tournament but that doesn't mean you cannot enjoy the rest of it just because your "hero" didn't win it all. For example, when Denmark enters the World Cup, I don't expect them to win (even though it would be nice), yet I can still watch the finals even though Denmark is not playing.
First, your question was inane, but in the case that platinum players are what people want to see, then yes - tournaments have to involve them in the players list.
Second, polls on TL are not a proper sampling of the SC 2 viewer base. Post it on reddit, and ask - Who do you want to see in the next MLG, given that you are able to pick only one? with the choices being DRG, Nestea, Life, Symbol, Curious, IdrA, and Stephano, then see what you get.
Sports thrive on a local scene because they need physical presence in that particular scene. The players, despite their training, are also figures in a community that everyone in a town has probably seen or met at least once. This doesn't quite ring true for computer games, because of the nature of the internet. Thus, physical sports will always be more "localized" than computer games.
The problem with this rationalization is that it is not how the human brain works. Look at the main reasons why people support HuK, Stephano, Naniwa, etc. in this very thread: they are actually pretty goddamn weak in terms of being the building blocks of an industry. Liking a player because he speaks English and is remotely similar to you is a far weaker motivation than liking a player because he lives in your area, plays for your college/university, and represents something intimate beyond a conflict at the international level. Like it or not this type of identification drives the fandom of every sport.
On April 11 2012 03:34 MoonfireSpam wrote: So if black guys were better at basketball, would you ban them?
Korean = Country. Black People = Race.
And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues.
Point taken. Can hate on countries.
Can you try and explain to me, in your words, what the people who are "anti-korean" actually say, and not your twisted, strawman version of what you think they say?
I just want to see if you are actually trying to understand us or not.
Mostly I'm throwing that arguement out there to make people consider how if you switch "Korean" with "Muslim", "Woman" or "Jew" it becomes a pretty discriminatory comment. Now it's cool that people support their guys, but when it becomes "How can I make sure my man goes balls deep into this tourney?" it's crap.
I do get that National or Regional caps would make for a potentially awesome tournament with local qualfiers run over a decent number of games. For example a "UEFA Champions League" format would be good and probably work really well and be a huge success by EU / NA / Korea / SEA + Aus / World divisions or something. Can you do that for every tournament? No.
Anyways, in the Open Bracket for IPL4 25% were Korean, which really isn't that big a majority. Actually it isn't a majority. The problem is that the other 75% got shitted on so that by the Quarter Finals in Winners bracket you are down to almost all Koreans. No format can really stop that happening.
What they could have done is to make regional qualis actually regional so you at least seed foreigners into pool play, which is a change I would have approved of. What is a shitty thing to do is to cap nationality in an Open Bracket. On a national scale, I don't think I can name 5 players from the same country outside of Sweden, US and Canada.
In finishing, IPL4 was an international tourney until the Quater Finals of open bracket, Koreans just dominated.
Yes, instead of maybe pressuring our 'pros' to practice harder and keep up with the Koreans, lets discuss banning/limiting Koreans from coming to our tournaments. Because nobody wants to see the best games possible at a big tournament right?
This is kind of pathetic if you really take a step back and think about it. If you can't get past the fact a certain group of people are better then you are not really a fan of SC2, You are a fan of your country/foreigners. Which is fine, but don't try and stop fans of SC2 from getting the best quality games just because you want to root for your 'home' team.
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time.
Who are the "hometown heroes" for you?
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans.
Where would the guys like Polt, Moon, Lyn, Cella fit? They "speak passable English", but they don't fit into "anyone but a Korean" criteria.
Only one I have heard of is Cella, he is a pretty cool guy and I would be invested in watching him win. As far as I know he hasn't been a contender in any recent tournies?
On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote: people want to see the best players play.
Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that?
So by your logic, if two platinum players had higher stream viewers than two GM players, you'd prefer to watch them play?
In tournaments, I definetly say we want to see the best of the best. It's really simple, the best wins. And that's why limiting tournaments just because Koreans are better is really an ackward argument. Even if they don't have as big a follower group as us, we still want to see the best in the bigger tournaments.
Also, many of those players you have mentioned have been streaming a very long time, thus enabling them to gather a very big group of followers.
Don't say we when you mean me. Tournaments and streams are two sides of the same coin - you don't go from watching IdrA stream to not watching him in tournaments. Fans follow players, which is why a tournament featuring IdrA crushing a bunch of Platinums gets a huge number of views, but a bunch of Platinums crushing each other gets none.
First of all you didn't really answer my question.
Second, yes I used "we", because if I made a poll I'm pretty sure the majority of the Starcraft community would prefer to watch the best of the best in the major tournaments instead of watching two mediocre players.
Also, you can follow your national "hero" in a tournament but that doesn't mean you cannot enjoy the rest of it just because your "hero" didn't win it all. For example, when Denmark enters the World Cup, I don't expect them to win (even though it would be nice), yet I can still watch the finals even though Denmark is not playing.
First, your question was inane, but in the case that platinum players are what people want to see, then yes - tournaments have to involve them in the players list.
Second, polls on TL are not a proper sampling of the SC 2 viewer base. Post it on reddit, and ask - Who do you want to see in the next MLG, given that you are able to pick only one? with the choices being DRG, Nestea, Life, Symbol, Curious, IdrA, and Stephano, then see what you get.
The question Who do you want to see in the next MLG, given that you are able to pick only one?, is not the same as the example I gave above. Obviously people want to watch their favorite player, but sometimes that player is not the best and does not deserve to participate in or win a tournament.
A question like What should be the major factor for advancing in a tournament? Skill or popularity?, is actually more what I'm asking about. And as far as my own opinion goes, I have to say in major tournaments skill should be the deciding and only factor that influences how players progress.
this is all about entertainment. And it seems like SC2 is more western oriented than BW, Korean Oriented. In terms of marketability, foreign tournaments(IEM, IPL, MLG), and more foreign Teams. But to make SC2 grow, I tend to agree that growth will come from Foreigner interest in foreigner players.
It would be great if Flash and Bisu could become worldwide superstars of SC2 Hots, and have fans adoring them over Huk and Idra. But clearly, there will be more viewers on streams and more interest in buying aparrel for Huk and Idra than say SK Bisu or KT Flash. If Blizzard is serious about making SC2 grow, I would say that limiting Korean participation would be one avenue or option to explore. GSL can still be for Koreans, and the prize pool can increase to 100,000 for the winner. But the world wide tournaments need to be more foreigner involved to get the eyes on the streams.
I think SC2 would also grow if Blizzard sold SC2 for free around the world. And then make their money through advertisements online and through online tournaments in my estimation. That would REALLY elevate SC2's popularity all around the freaking world. Then you will have the best of the best, and not just Korea, truly compete in a global game/sport.
It's not even 'practicing harder' per se. What seems to be a big issue is the mindset behind practicing certain aspects of the game. Korean cheese versus foreign cheese probably has a larger gap to it than mid to late game management. It is more apparent late game because we can see the split in attention rather largely, but foreigner micro for the most part lags behind Korean counterparts. I think that "macro macro macro" mindset hurts our pros and it bleeds down to lower levels because that's what's being communicated and taught for the most part. Additionally, I think foreigners are missing that sort of ruthless efficiency from using unts to harass, scout, defend, and attack that Koreans seem to exhibit at all stages of the game, which again is related to a micro/control issue.
It should go like this: Premier league - GSL, with no Foreign seeds. Major leagues - DH, IEM, MLG, IPL and so on, allow Koreans but limit them to around 8. Minor tournemants - like the gathering and so on, it wouldn't matter if you ban Koreans or not because they won't come anyway. Dailies/Weeklies - Like Playhem, Go4SC2, should be region based, AKA, no Koreans in NA Playhem, because that stunts the growth of local players.
IEM has already region based qualifiers and Dreamhack doesn't have a huge number of Koreans. And even at MLG the number of Koreans is not that huge as people make it sound. The reason why so many Koreans where at IPL 4 is that IPL paid for them to visit the GSTL Finals. Without that we wouldn't see this amount of Koreans players.
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote: I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
Ok lets try this.
concern 1 . We can't relate to the koreans ! * Already disproven by multiple people in multiple posts. It is entirely possible to relate to people outside your own culture. NA probably has the largest casual fanbase and the least Pros capable of showing off impressive games. Chances are the last foreigner in a tournament will be european and/ or currently training in korea. Most of the time the primary language of that player will not be english. Even if they speak english it will not always be entirely smooth becuase of different grammar structures etc (ex. naniwa. white-ra, stephano). While not racist saying " I only want to cheer for people who're like me" is certainly predjudiced and false since the average new yorker probably has nothing in common with Mana or Bling or Kas etc. Casual fans like that are creating their own boundaries on who they feel they can relate to. If we suddenly get a slew of foreign pros from idk south america who can win major tournaments but need a translator because they don't speak english I highly doubt they will be embraced by all. The world VS korea nonsense gives an illusion of a united western scene but such a thing does not exist.
Concern 2. We want to see a variety of players ! * So do I, which means not seeing the same few foreign hopes trotted out at every tournament. However that requires the pro scenes of different regions to produce players who can actually qualify for events. . Limiting how many players can come from each region will almost always lead to only the same players coming from each region. Even if you hold qualifiers, NA will almost always end up being HuK, Idra, Select etc. EU would have to split into mini regions but would predictaly be a zerg like ret, morrow or nerchio, a toss like Naniwa, Mana or Sase, and a terran like Thorzain, Tarson or Kas. Korea would actually have the most fluid roster since they have a wider amount of top level pros who can all beat each other on any given day.
Also the scene is currently not set up to have such a system because all our tournaments are run by different leagues. It'd be awkward if one league introduced region limits and others didn't. Then you basically split the fanbase between those who want equal representation and those who want to see the best play out of people who legit earned thier way into a tournament. teams then also have to choose which competitions to send their players too and how that looks to the general public. Plus you know most foreign teams have atleast one korean player now, I'm sure it'd be great if liquid was like " Hey guys we're taking everyone to mlg for open bracket but um Hero and Zenio and Taeja becuase you see we can't have too many koreans."
Concern 3 All koreans is boring to watch! * This is subjective and it depends on the players in question. If you fill a tournament with drg, mc, mma, mkp etc even casual people will like it becuase they like those players and their playstyles.
Concern 4 We can't qualify becuase we can't get through open bracket! * Tough cookies, a qualifier like open bracket weeds out the weak, if foreign players can't get through then they didn't deserve to be there anyways. How many god damned times did people bitch about incontrol going 0-5 in groups at mlg because he could not keep up with what was still mostly just other foreign players and a handful of koreans. Limiting how many koreans can play in qualifers and open brackets would only lead to more awkward situations where someone undeserving makes it to groups and gets facerolled. Huk and Sase almost made it to pool play at IPl4 and they took down several koreans to do so. If we redid that open bracket multiple times there's a good chance some of those times they'd get through becuase they've proven capable of consistent high level play. However this time they failed, it's not the end of the world.
concern 5. There are more casual fans we deserve to be the biggest voice! * Dosen't matter, especially as tournaments move towards more sustainable revenue types. Hardcore watchers are more likely to pay for HD, vods, multiple cameras so they can watch from a pros pov etc. Being the majority does not make you more important and doesn't even garuntee that you contribute the most to the community despite having more people to do so with.
Here are some actualy numbers, not your opinion based on a vocal part (maybe majority, maybe not) of a site that at most includes 25% of the SC2 viewerbase (probably around 10%, during IPL4 there were 180,000 live views on the streams while only 17,000 people were on TL).
I'm unsure as to your point here. I know people like watching foreigners. I like watching and cheering for foreigners. That still doesn't tell me why tournaments should start doing region limiting for all the reasons I pointed out before. It's going to limit variety more than we already get, it puts teams in awkward situations etc etc.
Wanting more visible foreign players is not a problematic view. Attempting to enforce it via region limiting is, especially when the majority of the money is in big international tournaments.
Honestly a more unified and organized starcraft scene is needed to sort this thing out. There needs to be more tournaments at the local level that allow players to compete for fame within their region more readily. HellI think betwen gsl, ksl and esv weeklies korea may have the most steady group of recurring tournaments that keep players active and motivated. More stuff like that would appeal to casual watchers and be on at better hours for each locale.
Big tournaments though I still feel those should be merit based. It may suck to see Huk fall short of pool play but I just can't honestly say I feel comfortable letting in weaker players over stronger ones. Does it not invalidate a win a little when you know you didn't face as hard a challenge as you could have. even idra was less proud of his iem win where all he faced was puma then his orlando placement where he went toe to toe with bomber and came out ahead.
Also an IP4 situation is not likely to happen again. Korean teams do not have the money to fly out thier whole team to play in open brakcets whenever they want. there is already naturally limiting factors to how many korean players will be at any given tournament.
Region limiting tournaments has a number of positives and negatives. Lowering diversity is not, however, one of its negatives.
Region limiting has the following effects on tournament organization:
* It promotes diversity. Having 16 Koreans is not diversity. Having 4 Koreans, 4 Americans, 4 Europeans, and 4 Southeast Asians is diversity.
* It lowers costs. With 16 Koreans, tournament organizers in NA and EU have to intercontinentally fly in every single one of its players. With 4 Americans, however, they don't.
* It gives viewers all over the world home favorites to cheer for, and gives a global feel to the event.
It has the following drawbacks:
* It lowers the average level of play.
* It is not strictly meritocratic.
A middle ground solution for major weekend tournaments is, I think, to reserve a larger number of spots for Koreans - ie 30-40% instead of 25% - and to structure brackets such that Korean vs. foreigner matches happen throughout the course of the weekend.
How do you do that and be fair to players and teams ? If say mlg said ok only 8 koreans can enter the open bracket for the next mlg how do they decide who gets in. Is it just whoever signs up first? Then basically you're going to have teams always constantly watching tournaments to see when registration opens and one korean team or one foreign team with many koreans could grab all the spots. If you limit one korean per team then teams now have to decide who to bring to each event etc. Plus it looks awkward as hell if only koreans are being limited like bring all the swedes you want on your team but only one korean, becuase that won't cause problems with interteam relations. Limiting people from every region in open bracket makes things even more of a pain in the ass depending on how big the bracket is and how many people from certain area can come.
Invite only spots are less problematic because tournaments can jusitfy inviting whoever the hell they want and are already filtering based on getting good racial diversity.
when foreign's start to play 8-10 hours on pratice mode(not laddering) the gap will be substantial closing. korean way of training is somewhat uber comparing with the foreigns ones ....
Wow, and intelligent post. Amazing. Sure, their are similarities. But the differences are huge. When have you seen a woman begging for a man with a gamers body instead of an athletes. How many job interviews are impressed with "70-100 hours a week" gaming? How many people in the world can even relate to a SC2 player? How many impressive leadership skills have you seen? How many jobs are there in the SC2 former player catagory? Have you seen heard these 12 hour / day korean gamers.
I mean, even the most dedicated athlete has some personal time. However, it seems like every fan wants the players to turn into some sort of 14 hour a day zombie robot that only play SC2. I honestly feel guilty watching these games now.
Its a whole different ball game in the Korean scene. Pro gamers over there are treated like celebrities, its just that the majority of them aren't getting paid enough.
What you are saying though mostly applies to the foreign scene. Its because the majority of people outside of pro gaming see it as a waste of time and don't take it serious.
I remember watching a Stephano interview and him saying that his mother wasn't happy that he got into pro gaming. That was of course until he won his first major prized tournament and it changed her viewing of it.
Heck, Idra gave up a scholarship to college to persue his pro gaming career. Look at him now, no college degree, but making a six figure income.
People outside of the gaming world in the foreign scene need to wake up and see that there's a boat load of money in this industry and that people are and can make a living off it.
This post is so awesome it hurts. Guess what, Korean pro gamers are not treated like celebrities. They are paid nothing, packed in a house with 20 other people, and told to play a single computer game 14 hours straight every day for the rest of the adolescent and young adult life. I'm not sure how celebrities are treated in your world.
They have limited contact with the real world and how things work. Most of them haven't had a real job and have no social & professional skills, leadership ability or anything other than playing a single computer game. There are very few opportunities out there for players who've essentially done nothing with their lives.
So I'll see your Idra and raise you reality. Your idea of boat load of money and celebrity status is different than mine. Most of the winners in IPL4 wouldn't be able to pay for their trip let alone be "successful".
On April 11 2012 03:34 MoonfireSpam wrote: So if black guys were better at basketball, would you ban them?
Korean = Country. Black People = Race.
And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues.
Point taken. Can hate on countries.
Can you try and explain to me, in your words, what the people who are "anti-korean" actually say, and not your twisted, strawman version of what you think they say?
I just want to see if you are actually trying to understand us or not.
Mostly I'm throwing that arguement out there to make people consider how if you switch "Korean" with "Muslim", "Woman" or "Jew" it becomes a pretty discriminatory comment. Now it's cool that people support their guys, but when it becomes "How can I make sure my man goes balls deep into this tourney?" it's crap.
I do get that National or Regional caps would make for a potentially awesome tournament with local qualfiers run over a decent number of games. For example a "UEFA Champions League" format would be good and probably work really well and be a huge success by EU / NA / Korea / SEA + Aus / World divisions or something. Can you do that for every tournament? No.
Anyways, in the Open Bracket for IPL4 25% were Korean, which really isn't that big a majority. Actually it isn't a majority. The problem is that the other 75% got shitted on so that by the Quarter Finals in Winners bracket you are down to almost all Koreans. No format can really stop that happening.
What they could have done is to make regional qualis actually regional so you at least seed foreigners into pool play, which is a change I would have approved of. What is a shitty thing to do is to cap nationality in an Open Bracket. On a national scale, I don't think I can name 5 players from the same country outside of Sweden, US and Canada.
In finishing, IPL4 was an international tourney until the Quater Finals of open bracket, Koreans just dominated.
Yeah, but woman is a gender, a Korean is someone from a specific nation. Muslim is someone with a specific faith, Jew is... kinda strange, it's half a belief and half "race", I don't want to elaborate about this here (many people ins Israel see themselves as Jewish atheists).
I can also switch the word "Korean" with "Someone who I just can't relate to", would you like it better if that was the word used? And it just so happened that most players that people have problems relating to are Koreans?
And saying that someone is Korean means several more things - odds are he is acting boring (as being defined by a large number of people) on stage, odds are he doesn't speak english, and so on, you can't say that on the "typical" woman, muslim or a jew, because they are more diverse as groups.
Also, the guy that you've quoted doesn't represent us, he represents a more extreme view, for example, I really like Genius, MMA, MKP, MC and DRG (MMA is the only one who I like due to his playing style, out of them), most of us would like to have some Koreans, but not such a large number.
Do you understand that we don't hate Koreans? Do you understand that we are just indifferent to most of them? And that what we hate is that a large number of people towards which we are indifferent are the only people being broadcasted?
Oh if anyone wants more numbers: Pacific Qualis: 12/32 UK: 3/32 (all 3 from Online Quali, 1 was a replacement for minigun) -> Tails got seeded as Stephano was already qualified. Aus: 0/32 -> went to Pacific qualis where both lost to Koreans. Online #1: 39/64 Online #2: 36/64
Its still pretty fucking international.
And to dude above. Mate did I not say I don't care if you root for your hometown hero? I'll make it shorter.
You support not Korea. OK!. You try make Korea(or anyone else) lose by fixing tourney. Not OK!.
And yeah, ignore the bit about 75% foreigner participation in the open bracket.
Btw I supported the idea of regional qualifiers if you fucking read.
It should go like this: Premier league - GSL, with no Foreign seeds. Major leagues - DH, IEM, MLG, IPL and so on, allow Koreans but limit them to around 8. Minor tournemants - like the gathering and so on, it wouldn't matter if you ban Koreans or not because they won't come anyway. Dailies/Weeklies - Like Playhem, Go4SC2, should be region based, AKA, no Koreans in NA Playhem, because that stunts the growth of local players.
IEM has already region based qualifiers and Dreamhack doesn't have a huge number of Koreans. And even at MLG the number of Koreans is not that huge as people make it sound. The reason why so many Koreans where at IPL 4 is that IPL paid for them to visit the GSTL Finals. Without that we wouldn't see this amount of Koreans players.
I thought Korean players participating in IPL 4 had qualified either through the Korean regional qualifiers or through another region's qualifiers. What's the point of regional qualifiers when people play cross-server anyway? The entire idea is laughable.
This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Dont worry guys, Koreans will kill the sc2 scene and they'll have nothing to play. Then the foreign scene can rise from the ashes like a phoenix and flourish! Then Koreans will start playing and rape foreigners all over again! LOL
It should go like this: Premier league - GSL, with no Foreign seeds. Major leagues - DH, IEM, MLG, IPL and so on, allow Koreans but limit them to around 8. Minor tournemants - like the gathering and so on, it wouldn't matter if you ban Koreans or not because they won't come anyway. Dailies/Weeklies - Like Playhem, Go4SC2, should be region based, AKA, no Koreans in NA Playhem, because that stunts the growth of local players.
IEM has already region based qualifiers and Dreamhack doesn't have a huge number of Koreans. And even at MLG the number of Koreans is not that huge as people make it sound. The reason why so many Koreans where at IPL 4 is that IPL paid for them to visit the GSTL Finals. Without that we wouldn't see this amount of Koreans players.
I thought Korean players participating in IPL 4 had qualified either through the Korean regional qualifiers or through another region's qualifiers. What's the point of regional qualifiers when people play cross-server anyway? The entire idea is laughable.
Those in pool play qualified in open (not regional) qualifiers. But a lot of the many Koreans in the open bracket were from Startale and Prime. Those teams were paid to come Vegas and play the GSTL.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
As for choosing what to match to show, that is a valid point, and one that future tourney organisers should definately consider and I agree that they should not necessarily focus on Koreans all the time.
I dont think you can stop Korean top 8 finishes though. For example, would you limit the number of American entrants into the open bracket?
I think one of the interesting things about how WCG used to work is that it meant something to be the best player from the US, or whatever. It is a shame to lose that, but at the end of the day, I just like seeing good players and I don't particularly care where they live.
Re: no one wants to see crappy foreigners play strawman.
You're right, nobody wants to see foreigners play when the first six zerglings a Korean pro sends kills them outright - as Jaedoing did to his foreigner opponents in BW WCG.
But this isn't the problem in SC 2 right now. The problem is that we have a handful of foreigner favorites who are able to compete vs. Koreans - and at times upset them - but no one gets to see them play because they get knocked out during the qualifiers and OBs.
Get better, you say? But that's not the problem - the problem is the ratio of top Koreans to top foreigners. HuK, Illusion, and SaSe took out 2-3 Code A/Code S Koreans each, but where did it get them? Nowhere. Under the current format, you have to outclass Code A/Code S Koreans to make it into pool play from the OBs as a foreigner and that's never going to happen.
It's a counting game. The Korean SC 2 scene has a huge pool of Code A/Code S level pros to the handful that foreigners have, and when they show in force to foreigner tournaments they are able to prevent foreigner pros of equivalent skill from advancing into pool play.
Take Stephano, for example. He has a slightly less than 50% win rate against top Korean pros. By that stat he has what it takes to compete. But put him in an OB with 20-30 top Korean pros and he's going to be knocked out within 2-3 rounds. The sheer ratio of Korean pros to foreigner pros ensures that tournaments running the format they're running right now are going to have entirely Korean line-ups during main stage play.
People who watch SC 2 striclty for the level of skill displayed has no issue with this - Stephano to them is the same as a random Korean Code A Zerg. But this is not how eSports viewership works, hence the need for change.
The korean teams just provide the best conditions for practicing a lot. Combine that with the korean practicing mentality, and it is no surprise koreans are so dominant in the scene.
The European and American teams and players just need to step up a bit. I think the tournament experience they are getting against koreans is helping. I think that reducing the amount of koreans in major tournaments or seperating koreans and foreigners would only hurt the scene. Major e-sports events should always be an international experience and definitely not segregated by your nationality.
On April 10 2012 18:04 naastyOne wrote: Hello everyone,
While I do understand that TL webforum is quite a "certain type of people" community, there is so ridiculous amound of not called upon fail i just wanted to get in.
First of all, sport is about the SHOW, not determining who has the longest dick. While skill is an integral part of the Show, more skill doesn`t necessary means better show. When about half of matches are predictably Korean terran MMM&drops, you might as well not watch half of the tournament. Simple as that, pick the "best"(the highest in position or whatever criterium) don`t waste time on the else. Obviously this is an example, but you get the drill.
Secondly 95% to 99% will not see the difference between the "code A" and "code S" doing same BO and style of play, while they can very vell notice different styles of play and different BOs. What does it means? Basically that there is no need for 90% of tournament to be super mega pro skilled players for it to be entertaining, on contray, such tournament is less predictable, and thurs more interesting.
That is the thing that is widely seen world-wide. The lesser leagues, i mean every friging european country has 2-3 leagues of football. Strangely, they have enough fans and money to live their life, despite the fact that uniting them into one "mega" league would result in overall "higher skill".
Could continue with other sports, but pretty much all sports have their lowest competitions at inter schools or inter-university levels, with kids/students playing in free of study time, so the argument holds perfectly.
Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
Ever wondered why the for example Football World Cup is much more noticeable and attended event than European Cup, despite the fact that Europeans dominate football, and a part from Argentina and Brazil, pretty much no national team can stand up? Despite the fact that a lot of European underdogs are probably better than some/most of teams from other than Europe/SA region.
So what does this means? It means in an order to survive and develop any sport needs a balance of local and international events, local and international teams, and most importantly content for broad spectre of dedication, and international events should be international, it should be serving to promote and advertise the sport apon broad community.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
Lastly, the ones about "they need to get better" got it upside down. When korea has community, which generates enough revenue to pay large enough number of pro-gamers for a living, In NA/EU, it does not exists, so foreign players can not really dedicate themselves to SC2, because they also have education and work which is not connected to SC2 and takes time from it.
Which again brings down the question of how to build up the international community, and "international tournaments"(coupled with local ones) are a great thing to do, bot only if the "domination of one nation" is impossible, otherwise the entire event serves only as another local competition for that country.
And the words of IPL4 manager pretty much confirms it, IPL4 failed on it`s purpose of an international tournament. Still interesting event, but largely irrelevant.
This guy really hit it right on the money, and from a personal reference, I'd definitely stop watching SC2 if foreigners never won a big tournament. I don't even care if there are koreans in it or not. If some organization put on a great great show like MLG or IPL with huge prize money but only had foreigners playing, I'd definitely watch that over a weekend like this one in IPL where I might as well have been watching the GSL.
Contrary to popular belief, you don't really get better at sc2 by watching other players play. Unless you know specifically what you are looking for to improve your own play, you are not just gonna watch and get better. And, if you do know what you are looking for, there are easier ways to find it than use an entire weekend watching a tournament with a huge variety of plays. I simply don't understand this obsession with watching "the highest level play". Especially when most people can't truly recognize what makes one play slightly better than the other. I think it has just become this cool thing to say. Like somehow people want to show that they truly understand SC2... as they sit and watch other people play...
That being said, it really truly blows my freaking mind that koreans are dominating this much. You have the entire bloody planet vs one, not even that huge, country! I truly wish everyone else would be doing better. It's really disheartening when you face off vs a high GM player and get smashed and you know that this dude isn't worth squat compared to players from this one nation. Makes any goals of being a good player seem too far fetched and unreal.
Lets think for a second. Foreigner tournaments ban Koreans like some of you want. Then, hypothetically, Swedes start to win everything. Should they receive the same treatment? Will American tourneys limit the number of players from Sweden or ban them just like they did with Koreans? People will come up with the same BS. "i dont wanna watch Europeans, i wanna watch Americans! USAUSAUSA!"
Or if Americans start to win every tournament, should European events start to ban them too?
Meh, following the logic of the "Korean Dominance as a Threat to the Growth of E-SPORTS!" you could just as well apply the same argumentation to say, Basketball. It's not as if Starcraft is unique by not having a globally evenly distributed amount of practitioners. In fact, the sports that do see a truly global competitive field are the exception rather than the rule. (What do we have really? Footie and athletics?) If the foundations of the game itself are solid this really is a non-issue though.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
Indeed.
I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers.
Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
Indeed.
I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers.
Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
It's not a global game because foreigners as a whole are not as strong. Thats the problem. Guess what! Excluding nationalities doesn't make it global either.
How can you legitimise limiting entrants from one country but not another? (FYI im taking about IPL4 OB which probs had more USA than Koreans in it assuming that at least some of the unknowns in the OB were from USA, which is pretty likely).
Or better still "Hey GSTL guys, come play GSTL, but GTFO from our other tourney".
As said earlier, they should show foreigners on the main stream and spotlight local talent if anything for sponsorships sake, anything else is on dodgy ground.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
Indeed.
I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers.
Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
The foreigners got their chance but failed to qualify. What's the problem? It's far worse to give charity spots out based on nationality/skin color and have completely 1 sided stomp-fests.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
Indeed.
I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers.
Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
It's not a global game. Thats the problem. Guess what! Excluding nationalities doesn't make it global either.
How can you legitimise limiting entrants from one country but not another? (FYI im taking about IPL4 OB which probs had more USA than Koreans in it assuming that at least some of the unknowns in the OB were from USA, which is pretty likely).
I don't know where you got the idea that regional qualifiers only limit entrants from Korea. They limit entrants from every region. Having Swedes take the Top 3 in a major tournament is a non-issue for me. Having every player in a major tournament be Swede, on the other hand, is an issue. I want to see global competition, and I think SC 2 still has it - but it's being killed.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
Indeed.
I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers.
Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
The foreigners got their chance but failed to qualify. What's the problem? It's far worse to give charity spots out based on nationality/skin color and have completely 1 sided stomp-fests.
It's not going to end up with one sided stomp-fests. Foreigners failed to qualify because it was 2-3 top foreigners vs. 10-15 Korean pros in the open qualifiers. Having equivalent skill doesn't help in that case.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
Indeed.
I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers.
Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
It's not a global game. Thats the problem. Guess what! Excluding nationalities doesn't make it global either.
How can you legitimise limiting entrants from one country but not another? (FYI im taking about IPL4 OB which probs had more USA than Koreans in it assuming that at least some of the unknowns in the OB were from USA, which is pretty likely).
I don't know where you got the idea that regional qualifiers only limit entrants from Korea. They limit entrants from every region. Having Swedes take the Top 3 in a major tournament is a non-issue for me. Having every player in a major tournament be Swede, on the other hand, is an issue. I want to see global competition, and I think SC 2 still has it - but it's being killed.
Because at round one you have a field of 25% Koreans (yes I counted) and by RO16 you still something like 15/16 Koreans. (Open Bracket). However if you limit Korean entries, why would you still let more USA guys in? And how could you say it would not undermine the Open Bracket?
Now yes IPL4 fucked up the "regional" qualifiers big time. Sase should have been in Pools from the UK set and a NA only qualis would have been nice.
What you really want to ask is "Where were the "top" foreigners?" in the OB?
Make a REAL GSL Style tournament in an area of the US that LOVES starcraft.
Do not spend shit tons of money supporting the players(by giving them houses and shit, but advertise them of course), teams can do that themselves and they should.
Influence higher hours of PRACTICE for 1 matchup instead of trying to beat EVERYTHING all the time.
Build a localized scene for 1 area that other places want to replicate by making their own. DO NOT Expand globally, DO Allow the globe to watch their scene.
IE: Make a GSL in California(And when I say STARLEAGUE, I mean STARCRAFT LEAGUE), Get LIVE qualifiers, LIVE matches, make it an INVESTMENT for pros to go there but make it worth it.
You will LOSE money on the first event, but keep at it and promote it with good shit.
P.S. Don't hire the NASL Soundguy
P.P.S Profit from influenced performance and local heros.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
Indeed.
I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers.
Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
It's not a global game. Thats the problem. Guess what! Excluding nationalities doesn't make it global either.
How can you legitimise limiting entrants from one country but not another? (FYI im taking about IPL4 OB which probs had more USA than Koreans in it assuming that at least some of the unknowns in the OB were from USA, which is pretty likely).
I don't know where you got the idea that regional qualifiers only limit entrants from Korea. They limit entrants from every region. Having Swedes take the Top 3 in a major tournament is a non-issue for me. Having every player in a major tournament be Swede, on the other hand, is an issue. I want to see global competition, and I think SC 2 still has it - but it's being killed.
It's getting killed because foreigners suck.
Look, you're making IPL out like foreigners all had to win open bracket and Koreans just got invited. That's not the case. Koreans had to FIRST WIN TOURNAMENTS by BEATING OUT FOREIGNERS. Okay? They had local tournaments where, despite having umpteenth foreigners, none except stephano could break through against the koreans. What does that tell you? Foreigners suck and Koreans legitimately deserved the top spots. Foreigners were given EVERY CHANCE to take the spots for pool play. Boo hoo they weren't invited to give a shitty showmatch.
And your example from Tennis shows just how little you take this into account. You stated that there was no tournament where it starts with everyone from one country. NEITHER DID IPL4. It just happened that the best came to the top, not through one tournament, but two. Koreans happened to be the best. That's analogous to Federer, Djokovic, Nadal, and Murray coming out on top. Everyone was allowed to compete IN BOTH SITUATIONS. It just happened that the dominant ones came out on top IN BOTH SITUATIONS. Let's also look at the fact that tennis happened to be declining in the US. Does the article say that the US Open is now banning Swedes, Spanish, Serbs, and English? Or does it say that the US needed more skilled player and that a lack of talent and skill was the problem?
I love how you guys think "caring" about this nonsense is going to change anything. The only people that matter and should care are the players and the teams (and their sponsers obv). You guys can cry and moan and whine all you want; you can say "they should do this and that and the other thing" as many times as you want, but that wont change anything.
Do you think saying "wow I cant believe all the foreigners are losing every tournament" is going to help in any way at all? Also, do you think anyone except for you and/or your little group of angry pitch fork carrying farmers cares about your opinions?
If you cant accept that the best players, regardless of their race or country, will always rise to the top then just stop watching sc2, esports isnt going to *die* because the 150 or so angry nerds stop watching. The best korean players ever arent going to throw games because the angry or annoyed non-korean fans are up in arms.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
As for choosing what to match to show, that is a valid point, and one that future tourney organisers should definately consider and I agree that they should not necessarily focus on Koreans all the time.
I dont think you can stop Korean top 8 finishes though. For example, would you limit the number of American entrants into the open bracket?
Due to the fact that the main in-venue audience of MLG is americans, I think that it is in their best benefit to have as many american players as they can, so that there may be a breakout like Ostoijy or Scarlett.
When there are enough american players who can compete with Koreans, maybe that will be the time to stop limiting Koreans.
And MLG Orlando and Providence showed that an all-Korean top 8 isn't a certainty, just a high probability.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
Indeed.
I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers.
Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
The foreigners got their chance but failed to qualify. What's the problem? It's far worse to give charity spots out based on nationality/skin color and have completely 1 sided stomp-fests.
It's not going to end up with one sided stomp-fests. Foreigners failed to qualify because it was 2-3 top foreigners vs. 10-15 Korean pros in the open qualifiers. Having equivalent skill doesn't help in that case.
This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Lets think for a second. Foreigner tournaments ban Koreans like some of you want. Then, hypothetically, Swedes start to win everything. Should they receive the same treatment? Will American tourneys limit the number of players from Sweden or ban them just like they did with Koreans? People will come up with the same BS. "i dont wanna watch Europeans, i wanna watch Americans! USAUSAUSA!"
Or if Americans start to win every tournament, should European events start to ban them too?
I think you meant "limit", not "ban", there's a difference between the two. Now, the problem in Koreans dominating, as opposed to europeans or americans have already been stated.
I've never understood why people care more about ethnicity (or in this case: nationality) than overall quality of games.
Why would you ever care if the guy is white, yellow or brown-ish as long as he delivers great games? I'm always puzzled when seeing comments like:
"When the foreigner hope is out of the tournament, I stop watching.", as if the games were getting worse when the white guys got their asses handed to them once more.
Actually, guys, guys, I have an idea. You know that if you play cross server at atrocious times with incredible amounts of lag for Koreans, foreigners will get an unfair advantage and finally be able to take games off any korean player. This way, foreigners can win against koreans and there will be less koreans in the tournaments. Perfect solution right? Let's hold all tournaments as online, cross-server, 3am korean time tournaments. How much more exciting it'll be than IPL4!!! What marvelous play we'll see! What incredible hype we'll feel! My god! Please take me up on this modest proposal, tournament planners!
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
Indeed.
I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers.
Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
The foreigners got their chance but failed to qualify. What's the problem? It's far worse to give charity spots out based on nationality/skin color and have completely 1 sided stomp-fests.
It's not going to end up with one sided stomp-fests. Foreigners failed to qualify because it was 2-3 top foreigners vs. 10-15 Korean pros in the open qualifiers. Having equivalent skill doesn't help in that case.
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
I hope the Stephano's of the world, the talented foreign players, are the only ones that ever have any success for the foreign players. I like most of the non-koreans as people, I think some of them have very entertaining personalities, especially on camera, but most of them just need to move on from pro gaming unless they see some moderate success in the near future. Either that or just dont put them on the main stage. I dont want to see bad games. All i ask for is the best players vs the other best players because more often than not, they provide the most entertaining games. The IPL semi finals and finals were some of the scrappiest games ive ever seen and I only see that from korean players.
On April 11 2012 06:17 kafkaesque wrote: I've never understood why people care more about ethnicity (or in this case: nationality) than overall quality of games.
Why would you ever care if the guy is white, yellow or brown-ish as long as he delivers great games? I'm always puzzled when seeing comments like:
"When the foreigner hope is out of the tournament, I stop watching.", as if the games were getting worse when the white guys got their asses handed to them once more.
You keep looking at this through the mind of someone on TL. Most people on Tl have generally been a fan of Korean SC for awhile. For a lot of us this isn't a big deal if we see only Koreans because most of TL only wants quality.
Thing is TL is still a niche audience. If you want the scene to grow you need players that a broader audience can relate to and cheer for. That's just the way it works. I hate to tell you this, but it DOES matter to A LOT of people.
I personally think that foreign players just need to get better if winning is their goal. It's not the fault of the Koreans that they are better at the game. Foreigners have the same potential to be good at the game if they have the same structure to support them.
Also it's a myth that Progamers are revered in Korea. The very very good ones are(and I'm talking bonjwa level good...like Flash, Bisu, Nada etc.) but most are never heard of, crammed in a team house with a really low pay if any at all. The willingness to do that, however, also separated them from foreign players. I don't know, it seems like a different sort of dedication.
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
I hope the Stephano's of the world, the talented foreign players, are the only ones that ever have any success for the foreign players. I like most of the non-koreans as people, I think some of them have very entertaining personalities, especially on camera, but most of them just need to move on from pro gaming unless they see some moderate success in the near future. Either that or just dont put them on the main stage. I dont want to see bad games. All i ask for is the best players vs the other best players because more often than not, they provide the most entertaining games. The IPL semi finals and finals were some of the scrappiest games ive ever seen and I only see that from korean players.
Honestly, I think using the final matches of IPL 4 as a demonstration of the superior quality of play by Koreans is rather deluded. From nestea vs squirtle and forward it was coin-flip all-in every second game..
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
As for choosing what to match to show, that is a valid point, and one that future tourney organisers should definately consider and I agree that they should not necessarily focus on Koreans all the time.
I dont think you can stop Korean top 8 finishes though. For example, would you limit the number of American entrants into the open bracket?
Due to the fact that the main in-venue audience of MLG is americans, I think that it is in their best benefit to have as many american players as they can, so that there may be a breakout like Ostoijy or Scarlett.
When there are enough american players who can compete with Koreans, maybe that will be the time to stop limiting Koreans.
And MLG Orlando and Providence showed that an all-Korean top 8 isn't a certainty, just a high probability.
So you would limit Koreans but not Americans? Would you fix the draw so that Koreans knock each other out early? Given MLG Orlando and Providence, do foreigners need a crutch?
I don't argue that hero stories are great a la Scarlett or entertaining the possibility of Nony winning something. My main irk is that people could and are considering biasing a tournament so this is more likely to happen. Doing that in a fair way e.g. 5 Koreans, 5 Americans, 5 Cubans etc. is all happy, doing it in an unfair way e.g. 1 Korean blindfolded, juggling flaming axes while trying to perform cunnilingus vs 100 Americans with maphack vs 100 Europeans being able to hear commentry is not cool.
That's an obvious exaggeration and I'm not saying you want that, but it's a feeling I kinda get in some posts.
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
I love how you perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.
I guess all Chinese people study hard, want to be a doctor or lawyer, have a 4.0 GPA, are world-level at math, and have tiny eyes.Would it be alright to say that just those people shouldn't participate in tournaments even though 99% of all Chinese people fall into this category? I guess all black people have guns, commit crimes, wear hoodies, and are deviants. Is it alright if I change my description of black to that even though 99% of black people fall into this category?
On April 11 2012 06:17 kafkaesque wrote: I've never understood why people care more about ethnicity (or in this case: nationality) than overall quality of games.
Why would you ever care if the guy is white, yellow or brown-ish as long as he delivers great games? I'm always puzzled when seeing comments like:
"When the foreigner hope is out of the tournament, I stop watching.", as if the games were getting worse when the white guys got their asses handed to them once more.
You keep looking at this through the mind of someone on TL. Most people on Tl have generally been a fan of Korean SC for awhile. For a lot of us this isn't a big deal if we see only Koreans because most of TL only wants quality.
Thing is TL is still a niche audience. If you want the scene to grow you need players that a broader audience can relate to and cheer for. That's just the way it works. I hate to tell you this, but it DOES matter to A LOT of people.
I personally think that foreign players just need to get better if winning is their goal. It's not the fault of the Koreans that they are better at the game. Foreigners have the same potential to be good at the game if they have the same structure to support them.
Also it's a myth that Progamers are revered in Korea. The very very good ones are(and I'm talking bonjwa level good...like Flash, Bisu, Nada etc.) but most are never heard of, crammed in a team house with a really low pay if any at all. The willingness to do that, however, also separated them from foreign players. I don't know, it seems like a different sort of dedication.
For one who has shit for honor, this reply made a lot of sense.
Maybe I'm biased in that I don't want the competition to cheapen for the sake of growing the community.
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
I hope the Stephano's of the world, the talented foreign players, are the only ones that ever have any success for the foreign players. I like most of the non-koreans as people, I think some of them have very entertaining personalities, especially on camera, but most of them just need to move on from pro gaming unless they see some moderate success in the near future. Either that or just dont put them on the main stage. I dont want to see bad games. All i ask for is the best players vs the other best players because more often than not, they provide the most entertaining games. The IPL semi finals and finals were some of the scrappiest games ive ever seen and I only see that from korean players.
Honestly, I think using the final matches of IPL 4 as a demonstration of the superior quality of play by Koreans is rather deluded. From nestea vs squirtle and forward it was coin-flip all-in every second game..
I didnt mean for you to think I said this was an "example of superior play" ...I said koreans provide the most entertaining games for me, and I doubt that I'm the only one that feels that way lol.
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
Even better. Mods should close this thread, because clearly you can't control this.
In case you haven't already noticed, this thread isn't about "people who can't speak English, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechically precise gameplay" as you quite 'racistly' described Koreans, this thread is about "Koreans" dominating the pro-scene because they're "Koreans." If people looked past the obvious, and started to accept that they're simply people playing this game better than us, then there would be no problem in the first place. If you don't like the fact that they're dominating the scene because they're Korean, then why are you complaining?
Survival of the fittest. The strong survives while the weak gets eliminated unless they evolve to adapt to the enviroment. In this case, Koreans are the strong ones, the foreigners are the weak one. Foreigners will always get behind and lose to the Koreans if they do not 1) train harder, 2) train harder and 3) train harder.
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
As for choosing what to match to show, that is a valid point, and one that future tourney organisers should definately consider and I agree that they should not necessarily focus on Koreans all the time.
I dont think you can stop Korean top 8 finishes though. For example, would you limit the number of American entrants into the open bracket?
Due to the fact that the main in-venue audience of MLG is americans, I think that it is in their best benefit to have as many american players as they can, so that there may be a breakout like Ostoijy or Scarlett.
When there are enough american players who can compete with Koreans, maybe that will be the time to stop limiting Koreans.
And MLG Orlando and Providence showed that an all-Korean top 8 isn't a certainty, just a high probability.
So you would limit Koreans but not Americans? Would you fix the draw so that Koreans knock each other out early? Given MLG Orlando and Providence, do foreigners need a crutch?
I don't argue that hero stories are great a la Scarlett or entertaining the possibility of Nony winning something. My main irk is that people could and are considering biasing a tournament so this is more likely to happen. Doing that in a fair way e.g. 5 Koreans, 5 Americans, 5 Cubans etc. is all happy, doing it in an unfair way e.g. 1 Korean blindfolded, juggling flaming axes while trying to perform cunnilingus vs 100 Americans with maphack vs 100 Europeans being able to hear commentry is not cool.
That's an obvious exaggeration and I'm not saying you want that, but it's a feeling I kinda get in some posts.
-Yes, for now I would limit Koreans and not Americans. -No, I wouldn't fix the draw, the Koreans are there for the "Korea vs the world" storyline, if anything I would fix the draw so that if they keep on winning, all of the Koreans would reach top 16 before running into each other. -Foreigner viewers want to see less Koreans, but what the foreigner players actually need is amateur leagues, without invites, so that up and coming players could invest more and more of their time into the game until they break out on one of the big leagues (kind of Thorzain and Nani on TSL3).
And actually, I think that limiting Koreans for a year, while improving foreign infrastracture can lead to a situation in which the limit is no longer needed in around a year or so.
And i've already stated, I am not indifferent to all of the Koreans, I actually really like DRG, MKP MC and Genius (due to their personalities), the only player that i'm a fan of his playstyle is MMA..
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
Even better. Mods should close this thread, because clearly you can't control this.
In case you haven't already noticed, this thread isn't about "people who can't speak English, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechically precise gameplay" as you quite 'racistly' described Koreans, this thread is about "Koreans" dominating the pro-scene because they're "Koreans." If people looked past the obvious, and started to accept that they're simply people playing this game better than us, then there would be no problem in the first place. If you don't like the fact that they're dominating the scene because they're Korean, then why are you complaining?
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
Boring, but mechanically precise gameplay? Do you even watch SC2? Korean games are not boring, its actually foreign gameplay that is boring, even if their personalities are more 'exciting'. Foreigners are known for passive macro deathball shit, whereas koreans are generally more aggressive. What do you mean by boring gameplay, exactly? Are you seriously going to tell me that MMA, Polt, aLive, TaeJa, theStc, etc are more boring to watch than people like Thorzain?
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
I love how you perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.
I guess all Chinese people study hard, want to be a doctor or lawyer, have a 4.0 GPA, are world-level at math, and have tiny eyes.Would it be alright to say that just those people shouldn't participate in tournaments even though 99% of all Chinese people fall into this category? I guess all black people have guns, commit crimes, wear hoodies, and are deviants. Is it alright if I change my description of black to that even though 99% of black people fall into this category?
Stereotypes exist mostly because they are true for a number of people of said ethnicity/race/whatever compared to the general population. Now, the funny thing is that I didn't say that all of the Koreans are like that, but most of them.
Anyway - here's something for you to try, can you give me ten quotes from Korean player, who don't include Boxer, MC, MKP or DRG, without actively looking for them?
On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote: This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
Indeed.
I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers.
Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
The foreigners got their chance but failed to qualify. What's the problem? It's far worse to give charity spots out based on nationality/skin color and have completely 1 sided stomp-fests.
It's not going to end up with one sided stomp-fests. Foreigners failed to qualify because it was 2-3 top foreigners vs. 10-15 Korean pros in the open qualifiers. Having equivalent skill doesn't help in that case.
In the round of 64 of qualifier one I count 29 koreans whos names I know (GSL or Large foreign tournament competitors). I count 8 foreigners who would have a shot at a good result in a major tournament. In terms of quality players, Foreigners were outnumbered 3.5 to one. Again, in qualifier 2, I counted 29 high level koreans and 9 quality foregners Again, about 3.5 to one. The UK qualifiers were fine. In the open bracket I count again 29 notable koreans (Weird) I counted 20 notable foreigners (I was way more generous with notable this time around too, counting several people I had glazed over previously). His numbers might have been wrong, but his idea was right.
Then the problem was that there were at least 27 foreigners who were simply not good enough and needed to be better. Koreans are basically counted as high level because foreigners suck in comparison. It doesn't mean a foreigner has no chance. It means they need to get better. Notice how 2 top koreans can break through a slew of foreigners in the UK qualifier while no foreigner can even make top 8 in the online qualifiers.
This doesn't mean that, at the starting stage, foreigners can't try to compete. It just means foreigners consistently get beat out by koreans because they're not good enough.
I watch tournaments so that in the later stages I will see the best possible games played. I do not watch tournaments because there are foreigners in them, I do not watch tournaments because there are koreans in them. I watch tournaments because they have the highest level games. If you bar some players from playing because there are a certain number of slots per country, allowing inferior progamers to play in their place, there might be some better storylines, but the quality of the games will go down.
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
I love how you perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.
I guess all Chinese people study hard, want to be a doctor or lawyer, have a 4.0 GPA, are world-level at math, and have tiny eyes.Would it be alright to say that just those people shouldn't participate in tournaments even though 99% of all Chinese people fall into this category? I guess all black people have guns, commit crimes, wear hoodies, and are deviants. Is it alright if I change my description of black to that even though 99% of black people fall into this category?
Stereotypes exist mostly because they are true for a number of people of said ethnicity/race/whatever compared to the general population. Now, the funny thing is that I didn't say that all of the Koreans are like that, but most of them.
Anyway - here's something for you to try, can you give me ten quotes from Korean player, who don't include Boxer, MC, MKP or DRG, without actively looking for them?
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
I love how you perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.
I guess all Chinese people study hard, want to be a doctor or lawyer, have a 4.0 GPA, are world-level at math, and have tiny eyes.Would it be alright to say that just those people shouldn't participate in tournaments even though 99% of all Chinese people fall into this category? I guess all black people have guns, commit crimes, wear hoodies, and are deviants. Is it alright if I change my description of black to that even though 99% of black people fall into this category?
Stereotypes exist mostly because they are true for a number of people of said ethnicity/race/whatever compared to the general population. Now, the funny thing is that I didn't say that all of the Koreans are like that, but most of them.
Anyway - here's something for you to try, can you give me ten quotes from Korean player, who don't include Boxer, MC, MKP or DRG, without actively looking for them?
Let me quote you: "Even if 99% of all Korean players fall into this category." Do you read your own words? 99% is basically all, not even mostly true, 99% true. Which stereotypes are never that true. In fact, stereotypes are somewhat, SOMEWHAT, true for a population, but not for an individual. If you apply it to the individual, you've A. never met the individual. B. are stupid. or C. are racist.
And I can't, lol, but I can't give you ten quotes from foreign players either. The thing that I remember most right now, that sticks out of my head, is from a Korean called Moon. "Koreans own the white dudes."
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
I love how you perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.
I guess all Chinese people study hard, want to be a doctor or lawyer, have a 4.0 GPA, are world-level at math, and have tiny eyes.Would it be alright to say that just those people shouldn't participate in tournaments even though 99% of all Chinese people fall into this category? I guess all black people have guns, commit crimes, wear hoodies, and are deviants. Is it alright if I change my description of black to that even though 99% of black people fall into this category?
Stereotypes exist mostly because they are true for a number of people of said ethnicity/race/whatever compared to the general population. Now, the funny thing is that I didn't say that all of the Koreans are like that, but most of them.
Anyway - here's something for you to try, can you give me ten quotes from Korean player, who don't include Boxer, MC, MKP or DRG, without actively looking for them?
Can you give me a single quote from a foreign player? It's not like they are spewing out quoteworthy wisdom by the minute...
I certainly could not. Your points are really questionable, to say the least.
There is nothing racist about not caring about a bunch of Koreans playing - I'm sure they have their own fans at home and abroad. If you can't understand this, you're probably too dumb to dress yourself in the morning.
It's also fine to say that foreigners are essentially too bright on par to spend practically every waking moment for decade long spans playing a computer game.
SC2 isn't and never will be a game that can hold the attention of anything other than an insanely tiny sample of the population of North America. The growth of this game as an "eSport" is essentially the proper mobilization of this niche group in terms of marketing and product improvement.
IE... you create a good tourney with tops players so the hardcore fans are willing to spend $10-50 a weekend to watch it.
I would never try to make an "American" league since there pretty much no insentive to try and appeal to a wider audience. That audience just doesn't exist.
On April 11 2012 06:38 murkk wrote: There is nothing racist about not caring about a bunch of Koreans playing - I'm sure they have their own fans at home and abroad. If you can't understand this, you're probably too dumb to dress yourself in the morning.
It's also fine to say that foreigners are essentially too bright on par to spend practically every waking moment for decade long spans playing a computer game.
SC2 isn't and never will be a game that can hold the attention of anything other than an insanely tiny sample of the population of North America. The growth of this game as an "eSport" is essentially the proper mobilization of this niche group in terms of marketing and product improvement.
IE... you create a good tourney with tops players so the hardcore fans are willing to spend $10-50 a weekend to watch it.
Note: I never said anyone was racist for not caring about Koreans. I simply think it's stupid to stereotype a whole group of people based on a few and accept that as 99% true.
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
I love how you perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.
I guess all Chinese people study hard, want to be a doctor or lawyer, have a 4.0 GPA, are world-level at math, and have tiny eyes.Would it be alright to say that just those people shouldn't participate in tournaments even though 99% of all Chinese people fall into this category? I guess all black people have guns, commit crimes, wear hoodies, and are deviants. Is it alright if I change my description of black to that even though 99% of black people fall into this category?
Stereotypes exist mostly because they are true for a number of people of said ethnicity/race/whatever compared to the general population. Now, the funny thing is that I didn't say that all of the Koreans are like that, but most of them.
Anyway - here's something for you to try, can you give me ten quotes from Korean player, who don't include Boxer, MC, MKP or DRG, without actively looking for them?
???
What does quotes have to do with this?
Well, how about you read the thread, as to why people don't want that many Koreans, and you'll find out?
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
I love how you perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.
I guess all Chinese people study hard, want to be a doctor or lawyer, have a 4.0 GPA, are world-level at math, and have tiny eyes.Would it be alright to say that just those people shouldn't participate in tournaments even though 99% of all Chinese people fall into this category? I guess all black people have guns, commit crimes, wear hoodies, and are deviants. Is it alright if I change my description of black to that even though 99% of black people fall into this category?
Stereotypes exist mostly because they are true for a number of people of said ethnicity/race/whatever compared to the general population. Now, the funny thing is that I didn't say that all of the Koreans are like that, but most of them.
Anyway - here's something for you to try, can you give me ten quotes from Korean player, who don't include Boxer, MC, MKP or DRG, without actively looking for them?
Can you give me a single quote from a foreign player? It's not like they are spewing out quoteworthy wisdom by the minute...
I certainly could not. Your points are really questionable, to say the least.
On April 11 2012 06:38 murkk wrote: There is nothing racist about not caring about a bunch of Koreans playing - I'm sure they have their own fans at home and abroad. If you can't understand this, you're probably too dumb to dress yourself in the morning.
It's also fine to say that foreigners are essentially too bright on par to spend practically every waking moment for decade long spans playing a computer game.
SC2 isn't and never will be a game that can hold the attention of anything other than an insanely tiny sample of the population of North America. The growth of this game as an "eSport" is essentially the proper mobilization of this niche group in terms of marketing and product improvement.
IE... you create a good tourney with tops players so the hardcore fans are willing to spend $10-50 a weekend to watch it.
So, basically what you just said is that there's nothing racist about not liking Koreans, and it's alright to assume that people who are not Asian are too smart to be spending most of their time on a computer game, and this is how you would describe this "situation", is that correct?
On April 11 2012 06:38 murkk wrote: There is nothing racist about not caring about a bunch of Koreans playing - I'm sure they have their own fans at home and abroad. If you can't understand this, you're probably too dumb to dress yourself in the morning.
It's also fine to say that foreigners are essentially too bright on par to spend practically every waking moment for decade long spans playing a computer game.
SC2 isn't and never will be a game that can hold the attention of anything other than an insanely tiny sample of the population of North America. The growth of this game as an "eSport" is essentially the proper mobilization of this niche group in terms of marketing and product improvement.
IE... you create a good tourney with tops players so the hardcore fans are willing to spend $10-50 a weekend to watch it.
Note: I never said anyone was racist for not caring about Koreans. I simply think it's stupid to stereotype a whole group of people based on a few and accept that as 99% true.
And if I would've changed that to 80%, would you still consider that as "racist"? I think I could actually make a list of Koreans who most western fans would find boring by than.
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
Boring, but mechanically precise gameplay? Do you even watch SC2? Korean games are not boring, its actually foreign gameplay that is boring, even if their personalities are more 'exciting'. Foreigners are known for passive macro deathball shit, whereas koreans are generally more aggressive. What do you mean by boring gameplay, exactly? Are you seriously going to tell me that MMA, Polt, aLive, TaeJa, theStc, etc are more boring to watch than people like Thorzain?
How many times are we going to have this thread? It's like after each event someone feels the need to make a thread on this subject with some long-winded OP followed by 50 pages of the same arguments. Koreans are better than everyone else at Starcraft, they practice harder, GG what else is there to say?
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
I love how you perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.
I guess all Chinese people study hard, want to be a doctor or lawyer, have a 4.0 GPA, are world-level at math, and have tiny eyes.Would it be alright to say that just those people shouldn't participate in tournaments even though 99% of all Chinese people fall into this category? I guess all black people have guns, commit crimes, wear hoodies, and are deviants. Is it alright if I change my description of black to that even though 99% of black people fall into this category?
Stereotypes exist mostly because they are true for a number of people of said ethnicity/race/whatever compared to the general population. Now, the funny thing is that I didn't say that all of the Koreans are like that, but most of them.
Anyway - here's something for you to try, can you give me ten quotes from Korean player, who don't include Boxer, MC, MKP or DRG, without actively looking for them?
LOL. Can you give me ten quotes from foreign players who don't include IdrA, Huk, or WhiteRa, without actively looking for them? I follow SC2 pretty closely and I can't do five.
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
I love how you perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.
I guess all Chinese people study hard, want to be a doctor or lawyer, have a 4.0 GPA, are world-level at math, and have tiny eyes.Would it be alright to say that just those people shouldn't participate in tournaments even though 99% of all Chinese people fall into this category? I guess all black people have guns, commit crimes, wear hoodies, and are deviants. Is it alright if I change my description of black to that even though 99% of black people fall into this category?
Stereotypes exist mostly because they are true for a number of people of said ethnicity/race/whatever compared to the general population. Now, the funny thing is that I didn't say that all of the Koreans are like that, but most of them.
Anyway - here's something for you to try, can you give me ten quotes from Korean player, who don't include Boxer, MC, MKP or DRG, without actively looking for them?
Wow dude, i can only feel sorry for you... i read most of your posts and they are filled with hate and anger towards people that are better >AT A GAME< than the people you want to be good. Please for love of god stop the hating... If starcraft dies because not enaugh white guys can win tournaments then seriously fuck this shitty community everyone prises so much.
don't worry as i've said before, with blizzard continuing to dumb down sc2 with a-move death balls and AOE, i'm sure by the final expansion foreigners will be able to compete!
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
I love how you perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.
I guess all Chinese people study hard, want to be a doctor or lawyer, have a 4.0 GPA, are world-level at math, and have tiny eyes.Would it be alright to say that just those people shouldn't participate in tournaments even though 99% of all Chinese people fall into this category? I guess all black people have guns, commit crimes, wear hoodies, and are deviants. Is it alright if I change my description of black to that even though 99% of black people fall into this category?
Stereotypes exist mostly because they are true for a number of people of said ethnicity/race/whatever compared to the general population. Now, the funny thing is that I didn't say that all of the Koreans are like that, but most of them.
Anyway - here's something for you to try, can you give me ten quotes from Korean player, who don't include Boxer, MC, MKP or DRG, without actively looking for them?
???
What does quotes have to do with this?
Well, how about you read the thread, as to why people don't want that many Koreans, and you'll find out?
Alright, so let me get this straight. You're a supporter of "let's cater to worse players, who are not Asian, by the way, because they are not Asian, but good players regardless. I support this, because I don't want to be a minority in the white-dude StarCraft society.", or am I missing something in your bulletproof argument?
On April 11 2012 06:38 murkk wrote: There is nothing racist about not caring about a bunch of Koreans playing - I'm sure they have their own fans at home and abroad. If you can't understand this, you're probably too dumb to dress yourself in the morning.
It's also fine to say that foreigners are essentially too bright on par to spend practically every waking moment for decade long spans playing a computer game.
SC2 isn't and never will be a game that can hold the attention of anything other than an insanely tiny sample of the population of North America. The growth of this game as an "eSport" is essentially the proper mobilization of this niche group in terms of marketing and product improvement.
IE... you create a good tourney with tops players so the hardcore fans are willing to spend $10-50 a weekend to watch it.
Note: I never said anyone was racist for not caring about Koreans. I simply think it's stupid to stereotype a whole group of people based on a few and accept that as 99% true.
And if I would've changed that to 80%, would you still consider that as "racist"? I think I could actually make a list of Koreans who most western fans would find boring by than.
Nice strawman. I never said it your 99% comment was racist. I called it stupid. You know, dumb, foolish, unintelligent, moronic, naive... right? And 80% doesn't change the fact that it's a stupid comment to make considering the qualities you're ascribing to Koreans are just as stupid as those assigned to Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman. Hoodies = Bad guy == Koreans = Boring players. Btw, I'm sure I could come up with thiefs wearing hoodies as examples too.
On April 11 2012 06:46 fishjie wrote: don't worry as i've said before, with blizzard continuing to dumb down sc2 with a-move death balls and AOE, i'm sure by the final expansion foreigners will be able to compete!
There are plenty of other games out there
Tribes ascend is pretty awesome, free to play, and much better than vengeance. Try it out!
On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote: This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
I love how you perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.
I guess all Chinese people study hard, want to be a doctor or lawyer, have a 4.0 GPA, are world-level at math, and have tiny eyes.Would it be alright to say that just those people shouldn't participate in tournaments even though 99% of all Chinese people fall into this category? I guess all black people have guns, commit crimes, wear hoodies, and are deviants. Is it alright if I change my description of black to that even though 99% of black people fall into this category?
Stereotypes exist mostly because they are true for a number of people of said ethnicity/race/whatever compared to the general population. Now, the funny thing is that I didn't say that all of the Koreans are like that, but most of them.
Anyway - here's something for you to try, can you give me ten quotes from Korean player, who don't include Boxer, MC, MKP or DRG, without actively looking for them?
Can you give me a single quote from a foreign player? It's not like they are spewing out quoteworthy wisdom by the minute...
I certainly could not. Your points are really questionable, to say the least.
"It's okay" - Naniwa.
wow really now? Btw i love how you say "don't quote the famous koreans" yet you are doing exactly the same for foreigners.
Wow, I seriously can't handle the ignorance of the posters here, read what is the defintion of "hate", read what is the definition of "racism", read why people don't want 30 Koreans in a tournemant, realize that you are all a minority of the viewerbase of SC2 (there's evidance for this on this thread) and that most people aren't like you.
There's so many pretentious, close-minded people, who don't try to understand what they are being told, who go into name calling and strawman arguments as their first option in an argument and can only see the world from their own viewpoint.
To the guy who asked me about the quotes, yeah, I guess that this wasn't a good meter, I think "knowing stuff about a person outside of how they play" would've been a better way to show that people tend to know a lot more about foreign players than about koreans ones, but... meh.
A question to the mods - can you ban me from posting for the next week? It will really help me.
On April 11 2012 06:38 murkk wrote: There is nothing racist about not caring about a bunch of Koreans playing - I'm sure they have their own fans at home and abroad. If you can't understand this, you're probably too dumb to dress yourself in the morning.
It's also fine to say that foreigners are essentially too bright on par to spend practically every waking moment for decade long spans playing a computer game.
SC2 isn't and never will be a game that can hold the attention of anything other than an insanely tiny sample of the population of North America. The growth of this game as an "eSport" is essentially the proper mobilization of this niche group in terms of marketing and product improvement.
IE... you create a good tourney with tops players so the hardcore fans are willing to spend $10-50 a weekend to watch it.
So, basically what you just said is that there's nothing racist about not liking Koreans, and it's alright to assume that people who are not Asian are too smart to be spending most of their time on a computer game, and this is how you would describe this "situation", is that correct?
I'll go slow for you. It's alright not to care about an athlete, team, political party, news events etc based on geographical and social/political disparties. This is not racisim. I like the Boston Bruins in the NHL. I could care less about wtf is happening in the Swedish Elite League at the moment. It has nothing to do with me hating the Swiss. Most of the real world operates like this. Please go outside into the sunlight and experiment with interacting with people.
The average person in North America have a different social / economic situation and are probably in a better overall situation than most people in asia at the moment. It is what it is. Most people understand this and work with what is in the best interest. Again, if you don't understand this, please go outside and interact with a human being.
On April 11 2012 06:46 fishjie wrote: don't worry as i've said before, with blizzard continuing to dumb down sc2 with a-move death balls and AOE, i'm sure by the final expansion foreigners will be able to compete!
There are plenty of other games out there
Tribes ascend is pretty awesome, free to play, and much better than vengeance. Try it out!
Personally I never played or watched much BW but I understand people's frustration about how *boring* sc2 is in comparison. I guess its because I played MVC2 a lot, and MVC3 is a dumbed down kid friendly version of the game. When a game takes less skill, its not only less fun to play, its less fun to watch.
But hey if foreigners are gonna stand a chance, best to take skill out of the equation. Also helps max out profits.
EPT
.
![[image loading]](http://tgn.tv/assets/images/down-arrow-64y.png){kind=icon}
![[image loading]](http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45815000/jpg/_45815682_koreamourner.jpg)
).
