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Yeah this OP makes me shake my head.
We should always be encouraging the HIGHEST level possible of competition, and if that means the foreigners aren't able to step up and compete at that level, then that's their own fault.
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If we had a tournament like this the winner would still be Korean, the only difference would be that the overall quality of the games would be lower. Which might be great for people who can't tell the difference anyway and just want to see more white guys, but I don't think it would work in the long run for the same reason hardly anyone watches those female only tournaments. The quality of the games is most important.
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On April 10 2012 13:19 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up? Heh, was IPL ALL koreans? NO! There are actually more US players in IPL compare with US Open in Tennis. Out of the final 32, there were 5 US players.
Frankly, I don't think using tennis in the US is a great example:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/643125-tennis-in-the-us-association-and-industry-may-overstate-sports-popularity
We hear every year about how well tennis is doing in the lower age levels, how there are up and coming players about to break into tennis. We see many come, but just as many go.
In fact, participation in organized tennis could be doing well in the United States. But the statistics suggest otherwise. Especially when you drill down to see what the statistics mean.
Sure, you can point to great crowds in New York during the United States Tennis Open. But the stands are filled with foreigners. In fact, interest in tennis in the US is down substantially over the past few years, and continues to decline.
Some of the evidence of this decline comes from television ratings. Surely, if there is such an enormous number of tennis players in the US, TV viewership would have increased.
[b]It did not. Instead, over the last ten years, viewership of the US Open is down substantially. In an excellent statistical review, The New York Observer noted that ratings were down even for the Rafael Nadal 2010 Wimbledon match against Tomas Berdych which scored a 1.8 rating, its lowest rating since 1988 and one of the lowest in history.[/b
Most of the losses in fans comes from the absence of tennis on television. In many if not most systems, you have to buy The Tennis Channel. And in some, The Tennis Channel is not even available. But there is no need for tennis on television if there is no interest.
The need for better US players is considered critically important to the sport's success in the US. After all, if the NFL and NBA were in Europe, would US fans follow them much if at all? Thus, the USTA developed USTA Strategic Directions in 2007, with one goal that required dramatic change: to "dramatically increase efforts to identify outstanding young athletes to play tennis, encourage them to play tennis and nurture more American players into the world’s top 10."
There is little evidence that this has been successful so far. We certainly have a few US players who seem to be better than the rest, but none appears ready to take over a top-five world ranking. And none appear to have the talent to do so.
Although the statistics offered by recent US Census Bureau statistics suggest there have been changes in the demographics of tennis players, the fact that those with lower incomes seem to be playing the sport more could have its own debilitating effect. After all, the corporations who pay for the TV commercials are the Mercedes, Audis and Rolexes of the world. Not the Wal-Marts.
If the double-whammy of both continued lower ratings and the lack of important US tennis players continues, we are likely to see less interest in tennis over the next five years. And this is more critical than anything else.
There could be ways in which this could change. But this would require the nurturing of the best athletes in the US who will have to be convinced that they can pursue this sport and end up being able to earn millions in greater numbers than are currently available. Without this, the best athletes will continue to go to other sports.
In the end, if tennis is in decline, can it be saved? Your guess is probably better than mine.
Now, what does this remind you of?
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On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it.
Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time.
Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours.
I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play.
Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players.
In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
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clone stephano a few times
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LOL, westerners fretting that they cant keep up with Koreans....
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What should we do?
We should it back and enjoy the fact that non-discriminatory international tournaments allow us to see a far higher level of play than we'd otherwise be able to.
I'm from Canada, but if the top 100 players in the world were all from Belgium, I'd still want to see them show us brilliant, competitive matches before seeing the best Canadian, who's ranked 983, get obliterated easily (blatant hyperbole to illustrate the point).
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On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent.
Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
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On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
Only if you can tell me why people watch League of Legends more than Starcraft 2 in the US.
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On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
Dota is more popular than SC2 becaues WC3 was dirt cheap and easy to pirate so everyone had a copy. Larger player base = larger viewership. The real question you should be making is which is more popular in China, the GSL or the Chinese SC2 league (whatever it's called).
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On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature.
Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
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On April 10 2012 14:24 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? Only if you can tell me why people watch League of Legends more than Starcraft 2 in the US.
Having world class US teams in LoL doesn't hurt.
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On April 10 2012 14:29 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:24 dUTtrOACh wrote:On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? Only if you can tell me why people watch League of Legends more than Starcraft 2 in the US. Having world class US teams in LoL doesn't hurt.
Trust me, the competitive scene in LoL is not why it's popular. It's popular because its free, easy to play, and just downright fun. The majority of LoL players are bad and will most likely remain so. Also League is a completely different game than SC2. One of the reasons LoL is so popular and casual friendly is that you can play with your friends because its a team game.
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there are people who can't connect to non english speaking players and there are people who are simply racist.
why lessen the skill cap of tournaments when we can put a larger emphasis on koreans to learn english? it is their second language over there afterall.
for the racists, no one need them as viewers.
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I think we should just regionalize the IPL qualifiers. Instead of having all 4 won by koreans, have a separate qualifier for each region.
Edit: regional qualifiers for other tournaments also would be great, where new faces could rise to the top - such as Scarlett in the playhem sponsor me tournament, except it would be in a qualifier for each tournament. MLG's arena is so intriguing because of the mix of individuals in it. There are the top koreans, but then there are the unknowns, such as Drewbie who out of nowhere won the qualifier.
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On April 10 2012 14:28 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature. Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples.
Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership?
My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did.
WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
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On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese?
Because Dota has a free access (piracy, Gerena, etc.), while SC2 has a price tag to it. Also the game has been out for so long comparing to SC2 and less stressful to play. Thus, it's not that surprising that Dota is popular in China and SE Asia. Being one of the best team in the world comes after that.
Gaming popularity, like sports, also depends on the number of players in the region. If there are more players then the there is more chance that the tournament has more viewers. Sure, top players being good at the game also helps increase the game popularity. But the level that each tournament offers also can't be ignored. The "Premier League" of SC2 right now can be boiled down to GSL, MLG, IPL, DH and IEM (also maybe Assembly too). These tournaments cannot afford to place a restriction on the number that each nation can send their players. They need to preserve the sense of being "the top leagues" of SC2.
What we need to do is growing more of regional leagues with smaller tournaments. Bringing in new players is more important than banning the top players to enter the top leagues. Running more local qualifiers would help (region, then national for example). But that means the local scene need to support the tournament too.
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Koreans have a more established e-sport "way of life" i will call it. There is a reason there is so many korean team houses. Cause it works. Esports in the foreigner scene has increased but its no where close to being able to bring in 20 people to a house and practice all day. EG has as close to the korean house as it gets and their players are doing very well and are improving and before people even BEGIN to hate. It takes atleast a year to even get the full benifits from a team house. In korea people would stay at a team house 2 years before they even did a proleague match. You want eSports in the foreigner scene to get better? Support it. DOn't throw up whine threads when Sundance has a PPV event. It will be years before Korean vs Foreigner dominance goes away. Not going to happen overnight.
Also our top foreigners take games / matches off their top/championship quality players. Not really sure where this is all coming from. They have more better players because AGAIN they are more developted so when 30 good players enter a tournament at 25 of them are koreans odds are a korean will win.
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On April 10 2012 14:37 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:28 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature. Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples. Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership? My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did. WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why?
Chinese people watched Korean BW because the best BW players were Korean. Chinese people watched Chinese DotA because the best DotA players were Chinese.
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On April 10 2012 14:46 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:37 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:28 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 14:19 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 14:10 BackSideAttack wrote:On April 10 2012 13:40 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2012 13:15 Dante_A_ wrote:On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open: http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracketI'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best. Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans? What do you think would happen to the excitement surrounding and attention garnered by soccer in America if an American player where to change to one of the very best European teams - think Manchester United, Real Madrid or the like. What would happen to the media attention and broader interest? Why do you think that is? To deny that humans are more interested in the success of people who are geographically and culturally close to themselves than to people who are not, is to deny reality. If foreign tournaments become Korean Open, the interest will shrink. Maybe not yours, you die-hard fans who argue on TL, but the interest in general. The quality of the games in itself doesn't matter. Did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when everyone were very bad compared to now? Do you somehow enjoy SC2 more today. Will you enjoy it more in a year, when the quality is even higher? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of old BW-fans are breathing a sigh of relief that things are finally back to normal. The Korean players dominate, and all is like it used to be. "Now can we please get back to pro-league?" Coming from a gaming community where we didn't experience this kind of dominance by a single culture, it's really strange to me that there are so little fight in so many for their community of players, that there are no loyalty to the players who play under the same conditions as they themselves do and that so many see no value in having a competitive foreign scene and players. Who rather prefer cheering the losses of foreign players with glee. What drives that mentality? I do not understand it. Many people enjoy watching Starcraft for the high level of execution and innovative build orders. Look at MKP vs Kyrix, where MKP introduced marine splitting for the first time or MVP vs Hyperdub where MVP showed that you can double expand against a fast expanding Terran. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy watching Mana turtle 3 base into death ball against every European Zerg because he doesn't have to the mechanics to pressure and macro at the same time. Look at the NBA for instance. How many Chinese players have there been in the history of the league? Even before the first relevant Chinese player (Yao Ming) started playing in the NBA, droves of Chinese people still woke up early every morning to catch NBA games, whereas rarely would anyone even watch a Chinese League game during more convenient hours. I went to Belize this spring break to teach kids about business at a technical school. I talked to the kids and every kid who played basketball (which was about 1/3 of the school) watched the NBA. There are no players in the NBA from Belize, yet the kids could still appreciate the high level play. Look at the MLS: it's homegrown and harbors players with substantially less skill than their European counterparts. Is the MLS doing well? No, a lot of the players make less than janitors. Instead American soccer fans tune in to their favorite European league to watch high level play, despite the lack of American players. In the end people like seeing the best. Sure they may get more excited when someone who shares the same culture emerges, but in the end, they aren't going to leave just because their native country can't produce top talent. Tell me, then - why is it that SC 2 has such a small viewer base in China compared to Dota, where the best teams are Chinese? If you caught Sase's interview recently, he even mentioned that SC2 will not be super popular in China because most people don't want to pay for it. If you have ever been to a Chinese PC bang, you will notice that all the games are pirated. SC2 is not piratable, whereas older games like WC3 and Dota are due to there being a LAN feature. Now that i answered your example, it's your turn to actually refute my examples. Your contention is that people want to watch the best players. What does playing the game have to do with it? BW was just as cheap and pirated in China as WC 3 - why did WC 3 and Dota take over in viewership? My answer is simple - because Sky came along, because Ehome came along, because Chinese WC 3 and Chinese Dota became the best in the world, whereas Chinese BW never did. WC 3 isn't a better game than BW. It doesn't have better players than BW. It never overtook BW in popularity in Korea. But in China, where all the eSports fans were watching BW on the eve of Sky's breakout performance in WCG, it did. Why? Chinese people watched Korean BW because the best BW players were Korean. Chinese people watched Chinese DotA because the best DotA players were Chinese.
Which does not explain why WC 3 viewership overtook BW viewership in popularity in China.
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EPT
