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On April 10 2012 12:23 foxj wrote:
Like any sports, we want to watch the best games by best teams / players. What if World Cup tournament bans the countries which are good? This threat idea is stupid, enjoy the game instead of nationality
All Koreans vs. no Koreans is a false dichotomy.
Tournaments that describe themselves as international start with a bracket of players drawn from all over the world, not just the region with the best players for that sport.
The problem with today's premier SC 2 tournaments is that while they do try to start with such a bracket, by the time the tournament hits its premier stage, the foreigner favorites have been eliminated.
People want to see their foreigner champions compete on stage against the best in the world. They don't want to see them going out in an online qualifier with 5k viewers.
Tournament formats in SC 2 have to change to avoid the farce of every high-profile event ending up with an entirely Korean line-up, which, when seen by sponsors and audiences, says that SC 2 is not an international sport but a Korean sport.
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Putting foreigner "favorites" into championship brackets when they clearly can't compete on the same level is the real farce.
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OP where were you last year when NASL was trying to solve this "Korean problem"?
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Look at how many koreans were at IPL compared to foreigners. Of course koreans are going to continue their dominance if they take up 90% of the invites at foreign premier events.
As far as I know, Only MC, Nestea, MMA (multiple GSL champs) were invited for pool play. The other koreans all qualified for the Pool play via qualifiers. aLive, PuMa, Polt and Bomber via 2 online qualifers. Tails from UK Qualifiers(Stephano won but he already had invite as IPL3 winner). MKP from the Pacific Qualifiers. Those 9 + the 3 previous IPL winners were seeded into Pools. The others had to play from the open bracket. Jjajki got his expenses paid for winning IPL Tournament of Champions and the GSTL team players due to GSTL being hosted there. The rest of the koreans had to pay their own way via team/sponsor.
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On April 10 2012 12:53 Azarkon wrote:
Tournament formats in SC 2 have to change to avoid the farce of every high-profile event ending up with an entirely Korean line-up, which, when seen by sponsors and audiences, says that SC 2 is not an international sport but a Korean sport.
This is utterly false. When was the last time an Englishman won a Tennis Grand Slam, or England won the World Cup in Soccer? Are these sports not popular in England? There is an incredible dearth of talent among US Male tennis players (at the top level), yet the US Open is still a very popular event here in the states.
Do you see how crowds cheer for Federer, Nadal, Djokovic at tennis events? None of them come from a country that hosts one of the Grand Slam events, yet the crowds at these events worship them every time they win the tournament.
I see Federer advertising pricy Italian watches in my American sports magazines all the time. Your making up the idea that professional sports care about nationality. The World Cup, the Olympics are not professional sports leagues. They are the equivalent of the World Cyber Games. Individual competition professional sports are the best comparison, things like Tennis, Golf.
Also: Justify your statement that foreigners want to see foreigners instead of just the best players. 90% of this thread contradicts your assertion. Please back it up with evidence!
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On April 10 2012 12:47 Dante_A_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 12:09 Azarkon wrote:On April 10 2012 11:52 mordk wrote:
5 from korea isn't gonna stop the domination. They'll just take top 5 instead of Top 16
Limiting the number of spots isn't enough if foreigners don't start working harder. I don't really care though, I enjoy koreans winning. They work the hardest, they deserve to win. Koreans taking top 5 in a tournament is better for viewers than them taking top 16 for the simple reason that foreigner fans want to see their champions compete against the best. Actually, the evidence in this thread is that only a handful of people want to limit Koreans, and an avalanche of people want to see the best play the best, no restrictions. You've got to justify or bring some sort of evidence to back up your statements. This thread is a good piece of evidence against you, and you have provided none. I have seem almost solely positive feedback regarding the switch from MLG to having first some Koreans, then to more and more. Americans seem to love having the top Koreans come over and play on their stages. Where are you getting the idea that Americans would rather root for Americans?!
Read through the IPL LR threads. This was a hot topic all weekend long, and there was a spike in LR thread activity whenever foreigner favorites did well, and a drop after they were knocked out. No scientific study has been conducted on this subject - but David Ting admitting that it was a mistake to fill the tournament with that many Koreans is an example of the feedback they received.
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Dominance recently? There's only one way to reply to that... OMGWTFROFLCOPTERSBBQZORZLOL
Sorry for the troll reply but Koreans have always dominated. There's nothing incredibly complicated that they do, they just practice more and maybe they do it more effectively.
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Tournaments that describe themselves as international start with a bracket of players drawn from all over the world, not just the region with the best players for that sport.
Actually, it depends on the sport. For 'Olympics' sports, this is the case. And by 'Olympics', I don't necessary mean just Olympics. I mean sports that the general public usually don't care about until the Olympics. Things like Track and Field, Figure Skating, Badminton, etc. With those, a lot of the International competition does limit the number of representative from each country.
However, for the biggest individual sports, this is not the case. I am talking about Golf and Tennis, these 2 are purely merit based.
And then you have team sports like basketball, soccer etc which have teams based on cities but the players come from all over the world (although some leagues do have restrictions on the # of foreigners).
So if we want to argue which path we should take for SC2, golf and tennis seem to be more popular globally.
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On April 10 2012 12:48 tomatriedes wrote:
For those who think this is a terribly offensive and racist idea- Did you know Korean sports leagues put a cap on foreign players on their sports teams? In the professional Korean basketball and baseball leagues they're only allowed two foreign players per team and in soccer four players per team. I guess in Korea the idea of fostering a country's own talent is quite well accepted.
How well are professional Korean basketball and baseball doing?
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On April 10 2012 13:02 Azarkon wrote:
Read through the IPL LR threads. This was a hot topic all weekend long, and there was a spike in LR thread activity whenever foreigner favorites did well, and a drop after they were knocked out. No scientific study has been conducted on this subject - but David Ting admitting that it was a mistake to fill the tournament with that many Koreans is an example of the feedback they received.
Your making a mistake here though. People get excited when the foreigner players they follow do well against the top Koreans. There is a history of people on TL putting down accomplishments of foreign players when they are not against Koreans.
The excitement of foreigner performance is precisely because the tournament was chock-full of the best Koreans in the world.
Would people be talking about Scarlett so much if she had just beaten Ddoro and DeMuslim? The fact that BBprime and Oz were there allowed her to achieve something she could not have done otherwise. These are the players I presume you would advocate eliminating, the Open Bracket Koreans, among others. Having the Open Bracket full of Koreans lets players like Scarlett truly achieve something meaningful, rather than just playing other foreigners in a watered down version of the tournament.
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On April 10 2012 13:00 Dante_A_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 12:53 Azarkon wrote:
Tournament formats in SC 2 have to change to avoid the farce of every high-profile event ending up with an entirely Korean line-up, which, when seen by sponsors and audiences, says that SC 2 is not an international sport but a Korean sport. This is utterly false. When was the last time an Englishman won a Tennis Grand Slam, or England won the World Cup in Soccer? Are these sports not popular in England? There is an incredible dearth of talent among US Male tennis players (at the top level), yet the US Open is still a very popular event here in the states.
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Do you see how crowds cheer for Federer, Nadal, Djokovic at tennis events? None of them come from a country that hosts one of the Grand Slam events, yet the crowds at these events worship them every time they win the tournament.
There are invariably fans who cut across national lines in every sport. I have not denied this, but I do not think focusing on these fans reveals the bigger picture.
I see Federer advertising pricy Italian watches in my American sports magazines all the time. Your making up the idea that professional sports care about nationality. The World Cup, the Olympics are not professional sports leagues. They are the equivalent of the World Cyber Games. Individual competition professional sports are the best comparison, things like Tennis, Golf.
All of which have national and regional leagues. None of which start off every tournament with players strictly from a single region of the world.
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Either stop allowing "foreign"(based on tournament location) players to enter tournaments or stop complaining when they all end up being Korean. The top players are Koreans, and for any top tournament to be a top tournament, it should feature top players. In the early days, it seemed like everything was an invitational, except for GSL. The quality of the games was also very low. Now, the quality of the games is high and people complain because the players are mostly Korean? Something fishy going on here...
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On April 10 2012 13:07 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 12:48 tomatriedes wrote:
For those who think this is a terribly offensive and racist idea- Did you know Korean sports leagues put a cap on foreign players on their sports teams? In the professional Korean basketball and baseball leagues they're only allowed two foreign players per team and in soccer four players per team. I guess in Korea the idea of fostering a country's own talent is quite well accepted. How well are professional Korean basketball and baseball doing?
Better than SC2, probably ^^
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Korean and "foreigner"...
People from all over the world are on this website to discuss sc2.
Most people care more for the sc2 race, than the country someone is coming from.
Dont you think, it is time to forget at which coordinates a guys where born and care more for their sc2?
Take e.g. Socke vs MarineKing.
If you ask me to go out drinking, i would take Socke.
I have much more in common with an older German metal fan than a very young shy Korean boy that like kpop.
If you ask me who i want to win in a sc2 match i take MarineKing.
Because i have more in common with a Terran player, that like bio-style, than an random Protoss.
Op thinks that more causal would watch sc2, if we put some guys from his country in the pool, that loose every single game.
Im no causal, i don't care what they want!
They care what they want! Don't act like you (we) are able to change people interests into what you (we) want.
TLDR:
Stop think about, what could make sc2 interesting for people, who are not interesting in sc2.
Start think about, what could make s2 more interesting for people, who are interested in it.
And get rid of the flags beside the name everywhere on TL and stuff like the foreigner first on the TLDP international.
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On April 10 2012 13:09 Azarkon wrote:
Let me ask you this - does the US Open start with an entirely European line-up?
Essentially, yes. There are pretty much three notable Americans, and none are ever favorites do win anything. Since Roddick has fallen off from competing at a high level, its been a barrage of Murray/Nadal/Djokovic/Federer top 4s. People get excited to see these guys play each other, because it pits the best against the best. Just to back this up, heres a column on the 2011 US Open:
http://www.theawl.com/2011/08/the-u-s-open-breaking-down-the-mens-bracket
I'm American, and I've never met anyone who follows the US Major League Soccer. Literally, anyone. I have lots of friends who follow EU soccer leagues. People want to see the best.
Are you arguing that the MLG events are less prestigious, less anticipated, less watched now than before the Koreans started coming? Can you point out an event that has actually suffered from too many Koreans?
I see sports as proving that fans want to always see the best. People will always root for local heros, but when real competition is happening, they will always prefer to see the best players play for the biggest prize, and not give preference to anyone else.
Not a single professional individual sports league limits people by countries, that I know of. As I mentioned tennis and golf are by far the biggest in this arena. Powerlifting is also dominated by a certain bloc of countries.
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Lets also cut black people in basketball too.
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On April 10 2012 13:08 Dante_A_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 13:02 Azarkon wrote:
Read through the IPL LR threads. This was a hot topic all weekend long, and there was a spike in LR thread activity whenever foreigner favorites did well, and a drop after they were knocked out. No scientific study has been conducted on this subject - but David Ting admitting that it was a mistake to fill the tournament with that many Koreans is an example of the feedback they received. Your making a mistake here though. People get excited when the foreigner players they follow do well against the top Koreans. There is a history of people on TL putting down accomplishments of foreign players when they are not against Koreans. The excitement of foreigner performance is precisely because the tournament was chock-full of the best Koreans in the world. Would people be talking about Scarlett so much if she had just beaten Ddoro and DeMuslim? The fact that BBprime and Oz were there allowed her to achieve something she could not have done otherwise. These are the players I presume you would advocate eliminating, the Open Bracket Koreans, among others. Having the Open Bracket full of Koreans lets players like Scarlett truly achieve something meaningful, rather than just playing other foreigners in a watered down version of the tournament.
I don't think you get me, because you're agreeing with me - people are excited when the best foreigners face off against the best Koreans. That is the highlight of SC 2 as an eSport - when the champions of foreigners are stacked up against top Korean pros and play great games. That is what we all want to foster.
But that's not going to happen when premier tournaments end up with 16 Koreans in pool play and 20-30 in the OBs, the latter of whom then knock out every single foreigner in the OBs in non-streamed games.
No international sport has that kind of system.
I know a few sports that do, however.
BW. Ping Pong. Tell me - are these international sports?
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On April 10 2012 12:12 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 12:03 freakhill wrote:
Because it deals with an important question that has been up to debate for some time, and for which no definitive answer has been found, or acted upon until now. It is disappointing you still didn't notice. Did you just claim that a definitive answer has been found? And that this definitive answer can be found in this thread but not the dozens of other threads covering the exact same topic? Please tell us what this new definitive answer is.
Reading comprehension please. I mean, isn't English your native language?
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On April 10 2012 13:16 SoulTakerz wrote:
Lets also cut black people in basketball too.
this lol
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EPT
