On January 10 2012 16:06 LuisArcadia wrote: Hey just want to leave this legal document I found while browsing looking for information on the case. It has a lot of factual information that should add to the discussion: http://media.naplesnews.com/media/static/20111230150108.pdf
People really need to read this before commenting further. Really sheds some light on how this was a planned assault in my eyes.
On January 10 2012 16:18 Shymon wrote: This seems purely cut and dry here, legaly and moraly. The bully announced his intent to harm the boy and then actually carried out said threat, thereby commiting a serious crime. I belive that level of assault it a felony but i am not a lawyer so don't take that as 100% true.
So now let's step back and look at this if it was happening to an adult. This wouldn't be a thread, this would be a guy threatens another, jumps him leaving no avenue of escape (there was a ring of kids) and the would be assaulter gets stab for his criminal efforts. Does anyone care at all in this case? is this still murder to the people who would claim as such in this thread?
This was NOT name calling, this was pre-meditated assault with intent to harm. This was a serious crime. This had elevated itself way beyond petty bullying by the bully himself. there are repercussions to actions in life and being a teenager is no excuse to commiting violent crime, nor is it too young to suffer the defensive reactions of his target.
In short, what the bully did was the reprehensible thing, NOT the boy who stabed him.
If an adult did this it would be premeditated murder. If have a problem with you, thats the baseline we have a prior relationship, then i take a knife with me for the obvious intent of using it one you. Then I kill you. I go to jail for murder. The kid got off because hes a kid pain and simple.
Man carries knife. Man is walking home one day, man gets assaulted by three other bigger men who proceed to beat him up. Man fears for life, man stabs attacker in self-defence. Man found not guilty.
Not what happened though. Man knew the other man. Man knew there was a problem. Man brought the knife for the expressed purpose of stabbing the other man. Man guilty.
On January 10 2012 16:32 Detwiler wrote: Wow I just read the statement of facts from the court. Apparently throwing spit balls and syrup packets and making "unkind remarks" is enough to justify killing another human being these days. For a group that is generally pretty liberal TL is bloodthirsty on this.
On January 10 2012 15:10 KryptoStorm wrote: Bullying *sigh*. I can't even begin to try to explain how much I hate bullying, but more specifically to this case, some may see it as justice, i'm kind of on the line, yes the bully deserved something, but I would rather see him educated on the seriousness of bullying and the effects it can have on people rather than being murdered.
Failure of the authorities, not the kid in question, IMO. And before that, the parents of the bully in question.
Still true, though.
I blame parents most of the time, ofcourse some people are born 'different/disturbed/blablabla' but it is up to their parents to help them..
A parent cannot help their child when they are unaware of what's going on. It's all about communication. Even if they noticed something was wrong with the boy it would probably still be hard to get an answer out of him as to what was really going on especially at his age.
It's not so simple and straight forward as you make it out to be.
The kid probably thought he had no outs. He was backed in a corner. Not fun being stuck in a corner. This was obviously going on for sometime as he was carrying a concealed weapon.
What's the morale of the story? Stop bullying people. Treat them like you would want to be treated and everything is strawberries.
Isn't that a just a nicer way of saying parents failed to realize their kid was a bully or being bullied? Key word there being failed? I mean unless the guy had some serious psychological issues aka a budding sociopath or the like, it's first and foremost the job of the parents to help fix this behavior. After that, it becomes an issue for the school and then the law. The fact that this whole thing went down the way it did is just so sad because literally everyone involved failed. Except for the kid with the knife.
No.
If a child doesn't want to speak out it's pretty hard to find out what's going on even when a parent notices changes in attitude. In many cases they think their child is just going through puberty and rebelling against them.
Bullying can have a traumatizing effect on a child and affect them psychologically. Parents cannot fix or give help unless asked for it. Like I said. It comes down to good communication between both parent and child. Here's the thing. If someone's severely depressed good fucking luck with that. If you push a kid long enough. Eventually they will snap.
This kid did.
I think those kids broke him down mentally. In either case, its going to be a long road for him. Lots of counselling, anger management and mental health therapy.
Not fun.
I disagree. As much as you say parents can't help unless it's asked for, that simply isn't true. If they don't know how to reach their child or how to help, then it's their job to ask and find out how. It's their job to recognize the signs and to get help for their child if needed. Just as much as it is the job of the parents of the bully to realize what their child is doing to others and to try and fix that as well.
Bunch of idiots who had shit for parents. Kid had a right to defend himself. The death was unfortunate, but I fully condone whatever means he had to use to defend himself.
On January 10 2012 16:18 Shymon wrote: This seems purely cut and dry here, legaly and moraly. The bully announced his intent to harm the boy and then actually carried out said threat, thereby commiting a serious crime. I belive that level of assault it a felony but i am not a lawyer so don't take that as 100% true.
So now let's step back and look at this if it was happening to an adult. This wouldn't be a thread, this would be a guy threatens another, jumps him leaving no avenue of escape (there was a ring of kids) and the would be assaulter gets stab for his criminal efforts. Does anyone care at all in this case? is this still murder to the people who would claim as such in this thread?
This was NOT name calling, this was pre-meditated assault with intent to harm. This was a serious crime. This had elevated itself way beyond petty bullying by the bully himself. there are repercussions to actions in life and being a teenager is no excuse to commiting violent crime, nor is it too young to suffer the defensive reactions of his target.
In short, what the bully did was the reprehensible thing, NOT the boy who stabed him.
If an adult did this it would be premeditated murder. If have a problem with you, thats the baseline we have a prior relationship, then i take a knife with me for the obvious intent of using it one you. Then I kill you. I go to jail for murder. The kid got off because hes a kid pain and simple.
Man carries knife. Man is walking home one day, man gets assaulted by three other bigger men who proceed to beat him up. Man fears for life, man stabs attacker in self-defence. Man found not guilty.
Not what happened though. Man knew the other man. Man knew there was a problem. Man brought the knife for the expressed purpose of stabbing the other man. Man guilty.
can you please read the pdf linked as you clearly havent got the full picture at all
On January 10 2012 16:34 Detwiler wrote: Not what happened though. Man knew the other man. Man knew there was a problem. Man brought the knife for the expressed purpose of stabbing the other man. Man guilty.
Still not guilty, as long as the man with the knife did not initiate the fight. It's the duty of the aggressor to not be a criminal, not the other way around.
If you buy a gun for the expressed purpose of shooting a man who's trying to [insert felony here] you, and the man tries to [insert felony here] and you shoot him, it's still self-defense.
On January 10 2012 16:18 Shymon wrote: This seems purely cut and dry here, legaly and moraly. The bully announced his intent to harm the boy and then actually carried out said threat, thereby commiting a serious crime. I belive that level of assault it a felony but i am not a lawyer so don't take that as 100% true.
So now let's step back and look at this if it was happening to an adult. This wouldn't be a thread, this would be a guy threatens another, jumps him leaving no avenue of escape (there was a ring of kids) and the would be assaulter gets stab for his criminal efforts. Does anyone care at all in this case? is this still murder to the people who would claim as such in this thread?
This was NOT name calling, this was pre-meditated assault with intent to harm. This was a serious crime. This had elevated itself way beyond petty bullying by the bully himself. there are repercussions to actions in life and being a teenager is no excuse to commiting violent crime, nor is it too young to suffer the defensive reactions of his target.
In short, what the bully did was the reprehensible thing, NOT the boy who stabed him.
If an adult did this it would be premeditated murder. If have a problem with you, thats the baseline we have a prior relationship, then i take a knife with me for the obvious intent of using it one you. Then I kill you. I go to jail for murder. The kid got off because hes a kid pain and simple.
Man carries knife. Man is walking home one day, man gets assaulted by three other bigger men who proceed to beat him up. Man fears for life, man stabs attacker in self-defence. Man found not guilty.
Not what happened though. Man knew the other man. Man knew there was a problem. Man brought the knife for the expressed purpose of stabbing the other man. Man guilty.
Did you even bother reading the article or any related laws or are you just trying to troll a thread about a kid that got stabbed to death for bullying?
On January 10 2012 16:18 Shymon wrote: This seems purely cut and dry here, legaly and moraly. The bully announced his intent to harm the boy and then actually carried out said threat, thereby commiting a serious crime. I belive that level of assault it a felony but i am not a lawyer so don't take that as 100% true.
So now let's step back and look at this if it was happening to an adult. This wouldn't be a thread, this would be a guy threatens another, jumps him leaving no avenue of escape (there was a ring of kids) and the would be assaulter gets stab for his criminal efforts. Does anyone care at all in this case? is this still murder to the people who would claim as such in this thread?
This was NOT name calling, this was pre-meditated assault with intent to harm. This was a serious crime. This had elevated itself way beyond petty bullying by the bully himself. there are repercussions to actions in life and being a teenager is no excuse to commiting violent crime, nor is it too young to suffer the defensive reactions of his target.
In short, what the bully did was the reprehensible thing, NOT the boy who stabed him.
If an adult did this it would be premeditated murder. If have a problem with you, thats the baseline we have a prior relationship, then i take a knife with me for the obvious intent of using it one you. Then I kill you. I go to jail for murder. The kid got off because hes a kid pain and simple.
Man carries knife. Man is walking home one day, man gets assaulted by three other bigger men who proceed to beat him up. Man fears for life, man stabs attacker in self-defence. Man found not guilty.
Not what happened though. Man knew the other man. Man knew there was a problem. Man brought the knife for the expressed purpose of stabbing the other man. Man guilty.
actually, this is likely the real reason he's not even getting charged with murder.
a lot of bad press about children going to prison for life. I think it's a political move.
On January 10 2012 16:34 Detwiler wrote: Not what happened though. Man knew the other man. Man knew there was a problem. Man brought the knife for the expressed purpose of stabbing the other man. Man guilty.
Still not guilty, as long as the man with the knife did not initiate the fight. It's the duty of the aggressor to not be a criminal, not the other way around.
Dude where are you from? People have gone away for alot less. Shit i got in a fight the other guy started it and we were BOTH charged with assault. In the city people go away for stuff like this all the time. Guess small town justice is different though.
On January 10 2012 16:30 Shafanhow wrote: To the bullies of the world: Don't start shit and there won't be any shit.
Yeah dawg fuck with me and im gonna kill ya
nice modern / civilized society we live in where you can get away scot-free for killing someone because you can say you're scared you're going to get a few bruises
On January 10 2012 16:18 Shymon wrote: This seems purely cut and dry here, legaly and moraly. The bully announced his intent to harm the boy and then actually carried out said threat, thereby commiting a serious crime. I belive that level of assault it a felony but i am not a lawyer so don't take that as 100% true.
So now let's step back and look at this if it was happening to an adult. This wouldn't be a thread, this would be a guy threatens another, jumps him leaving no avenue of escape (there was a ring of kids) and the would be assaulter gets stab for his criminal efforts. Does anyone care at all in this case? is this still murder to the people who would claim as such in this thread?
This was NOT name calling, this was pre-meditated assault with intent to harm. This was a serious crime. This had elevated itself way beyond petty bullying by the bully himself. there are repercussions to actions in life and being a teenager is no excuse to commiting violent crime, nor is it too young to suffer the defensive reactions of his target.
In short, what the bully did was the reprehensible thing, NOT the boy who stabed him.
If an adult did this it would be premeditated murder. If have a problem with you, thats the baseline we have a prior relationship, then i take a knife with me for the obvious intent of using it one you. Then I kill you. I go to jail for murder. The kid got off because hes a kid pain and simple.
Man carries knife. Man is walking home one day, man gets assaulted by three other bigger men who proceed to beat him up. Man fears for life, man stabs attacker in self-defence. Man found not guilty.
Not what happened though. Man knew the other man. Man knew there was a problem. Man brought the knife for the expressed purpose of stabbing the other man. Man guilty.
Or like the other person said: coworker tells you he's going the beat you up after work. You try to avoid him, he follows you with accomplices, then proceeds to start laying into you.
Your 'kid planned to kill other kid' doesn't really bear up against the facts what with the kid getting off at another stop, trying to walk away from the people following him.
On January 10 2012 16:18 Shymon wrote: This seems purely cut and dry here, legaly and moraly. The bully announced his intent to harm the boy and then actually carried out said threat, thereby commiting a serious crime. I belive that level of assault it a felony but i am not a lawyer so don't take that as 100% true.
Apparently being an unconvicted, untrialed felon leaves you open ground for being murdered.
Don't we have a justice system for a reason?
Is your stance one that you should let any crime be commited aginst your persons without resistance and simply report it to the cops later? let's replace the boy with yourself in this situation. A coworker (i assume you are out of school and employed but whatever) says he is going to beat you to a bloody pulp after work. Then when you leave he and a gang of several others trap you outside unable to run, he then procedes to start punching you in the back of the head, he shows no signs of stoping. You are under exterme emotional and physical distress. do you defend yourself?
this is not a retorical question.
I bring my gun to work and shoot this guy and his friends to death and make up some story about how he said he was going to beat me up to death after work.
Dude where are you from? People have gone away for alot less. Shit i got in a fight the other guy started it and we were BOTH charged with assault. In the city people go away for stuff like this all the time. Guess small town justice is different though.
Note that Florida has really, really expansive "stand your ground" laws. Not all states have those.
On January 10 2012 15:39 Motivate wrote: jesus how immature are some of the people on TL? how in any way does a person deserve to die for bullying someone? build a bridge, get over your childhood bullying experiences and grow up rather than trying to justify manslaughter over the internet.
-Get told you're gonna get beaten up by a group -Group does it for fun and sadism -Be small and outnumbered -Reason to fear for your life cause the group keeps pushing the limits -When the moment comes, outgun the outnumberers
It would be a bigger deal if he got convicted for murder after this imo. Like a break-out-of-jail card for every idiot who thinks harming others beyond physical dimensions is fun.
i have no problem with him bringing the knife in self defence, but i don't see how stabbing someone 12 times is in self defence
Have you even thought to consider the boy's mental state during the attack? I'm not saying 12 (or more) times was necessary, but he definitely could not have been thinking right. In his mind he was prob fighting for his life.
On January 10 2012 15:14 Indez wrote: You can't say "bullying, that sucks doesnt give him reason to kill" do you say that to rape victims. Saavedra was just practicing modern day social cleansing. A+ for EFFORT haha
rape victims don't know they're going to get raped, and comparing bullying to rape is a joke for many facts including that everyone gets bullied and bullies someone else (face it its true unless you like lying to yourself) and not everyone gets raped / rapes others
A kid died, their family is shattered likely. The kid may have been wrong for bullying someone but acting like murder is justified punishment for it makes me lol. are you immature or what?
everyone gets bullied and bullies someone? is this coming from US citizen?in my class there was only 3 bullies and 1 guy who got bullied thats it
On January 10 2012 15:10 KryptoStorm wrote: Bullying *sigh*. I can't even begin to try to explain how much I hate bullying, but more specifically to this case, some may see it as justice, i'm kind of on the line, yes the bully deserved something, but I would rather see him educated on the seriousness of bullying and the effects it can have on people rather than being murdered.
Failure of the authorities, not the kid in question, IMO. And before that, the parents of the bully in question.
Still true, though.
I blame parents most of the time, ofcourse some people are born 'different/disturbed/blablabla' but it is up to their parents to help them..
A parent cannot help their child when they are unaware of what's going on. It's all about communication. Even if they noticed something was wrong with the boy it would probably still be hard to get an answer out of him as to what was really going on especially at his age.
It's not so simple and straight forward as you make it out to be.
The kid probably thought he had no outs. He was backed in a corner. Not fun being stuck in a corner. This was obviously going on for sometime as he was carrying a concealed weapon.
What's the morale of the story? Stop bullying people. Treat them like you would want to be treated and everything is strawberries.
Isn't that a just a nicer way of saying parents failed to realize their kid was a bully or being bullied? Key word there being failed? I mean unless the guy had some serious psychological issues aka a budding sociopath or the like, it's first and foremost the job of the parents to help fix this behavior. After that, it becomes an issue for the school and then the law. The fact that this whole thing went down the way it did is just so sad because literally everyone involved failed. Except for the kid with the knife.
No.
If a child doesn't want to speak out it's pretty hard to find out what's going on even when a parent notices changes in attitude. In many cases they think their child is just going through puberty and rebelling against them.
Bullying can have a traumatizing effect on a child and affect them psychologically. Parents cannot fix or give help unless asked for it. Like I said. It comes down to good communication between both parent and child. Here's the thing. If someone's severely depressed good fucking luck with that. If you push a kid long enough. Eventually they will snap.
This kid did.
I think those kids broke him down mentally. In either case, its going to be a long road for him. Lots of counselling, anger management and mental health therapy.
Not fun.
I disagree. As much as you say parents can't help unless it's asked for, that simply isn't true. If they don't know how to reach their child or how to help, then it's their job to ask and find out how. It's their job to recognize the signs and to get help for their child if needed. Just as much as it is the job of the parents of the bully to realize what their child is doing to others and to try and fix that as well.
You obviously aren't a parent, or never dealt with depression. Unfortunately for me. *raises hand*
Adolescent kids are pretty hard to break-in especially when they are closing themselves off from the rest of the world. Then we have a thing called depression. Oh depression. That's a biggie. Severe depression can be a life-long struggle and the only way to start the healing process is to let others in. In this case you have to want help in order to get help. Not everyone wants to be taking medication or seeing a shrink to talk about their shit. It can be incredibly difficult finding the right one for you too. 14 year olds are very rebellious. If they don't want to see a shrink. They won't go; they won't talk. Not everyone can read body language and the other semiotic signals of someone crying for help. It comes down to interpretation. Just like your intrepretation is very different from mine.
Bullying isn't always so obvious. In this case, we have to consider every detail and like I said before. It's a shame the bus driver didn't step in or notice spitballs with cream and the other debachery happening in his/her bus.
On January 10 2012 15:14 Indez wrote: You can't say "bullying, that sucks doesnt give him reason to kill" do you say that to rape victims. Saavedra was just practicing modern day social cleansing. A+ for EFFORT haha
rape victims don't know they're going to get raped, and comparing bullying to rape is a joke for many facts including that everyone gets bullied and bullies someone else (face it its true unless you like lying to yourself) and not everyone gets raped / rapes others
A kid died, their family is shattered likely. The kid may have been wrong for bullying someone but acting like murder is justified punishment for it makes me lol. are you immature or what?
everyone gets bullied and bullies someone? is this coming from US citizen?in my class there was only 3 bullies and 1 guy who got bullied thats it
Not everything is easily recognizeable as bullying. It can be everything from small banter to gossip to body language.
There are the obvious cases and then there are the not so obvious cases.
EPT
