On January 10 2012 15:12 askTeivospy wrote: rofl at some of you for justifying this. he stabbed someone to death. HE KILLED SOMEONE. Bully or not he's a murderer, but its a dumb law and dumb laws are dumb
Are you really that delusional dear internet geniuses? If he was so forward thinking to bring of knife he should have been forward thinking enough to tell someone what was going to happen
I don't know. I don't like violence, but I ask myself if I think this kid would have killed someone if he hadn't of been threatened/attacked and my gut answer is no.
Also told someone? What "someone is going to hurt me" .... and then what? They're not going to arrest the bully -_-. Judge found it was self-defence. Which sounds to me like it was an unlucky swipe/stab with the knife from a frightened 14yo who shouldn't have been placed in the situation in the first place.
ok so the best solution to bullying is for the victim to murder the bully? calling names and throwing punches are on a much lower level than *stabbing and killing* someone
It's hard to feel sympathy for someone tormenting someone else and then dying. If it turns out that the kid who was being bullied deliberately set out to murder the other kid then obviously he's the villain. If he was forced into a horrible situation then I feel sorry for both him and the deceased.
He obviously set out to kill him the knife didnt magically appear in his hand.
Or he carried the knife for defence. You can't say someone being in possession of a weapon equals intent. By this reasoning the NRA is full of soon to be murderers.
Please he had the knife to stab the bully not general self defense. This case is pretty clear cut. He got off because hes a child. If a grown man had done this to another man it would be premeditated murder no question.
Yeah obviously he couldn't of had the knife to try and deter the kid from hitting him or anything. How this murderer got away with slaying this innocent victim is beyond me.
Dude you can't go stab everyone that gives you shit. It's not how the world works. I'm not saying bullying fine. I'm saying he shouldn't have brought a knife and killed him is all. I mean if he had the balls to bring a knife he should have had the balls to fight him. At least nobody would have been killed. One families life is shattered cause they lost their child and the other kid is probably messed up for life cause he stabbed some one to death.
Other kid shouldn't have been beating him up? I don't like seeing someone dying but you were saying the bullied kid clearly had an intent to murder which is flat-out fantasy. And your 'just have the balls to fight fair' line is crap. 3 against 1, with two of the attackers much bigger than you. It's unfortunately the other kid died, but that's what can happen when you attack someone.
At the end of the day a 14yo kid defended himself from a fuckwit. End of story for me.
On January 10 2012 15:09 Regime wrote: what bullshit it doesnt matter if u think ur in danger. call the police... u cant carry a knife thats intent theres no way around it
lol call the cops and he'll get bullied WAY harder.
He obviously didn't go to a school like mine which every year the ambulance would come once or twice to take away a kid on a stretcher. Gang violence usually what it was attributed to.
On January 10 2012 15:12 askTeivospy wrote: rofl at some of you for justifying this. he stabbed someone to death. HE KILLED SOMEONE. Bully or not he's a murderer, but its a dumb law and dumb laws are dumb
Are you really that delusional dear internet geniuses? If he was so forward thinking to bring of knife he should have been forward thinking enough to tell someone what was going to happen
I don't know. I don't like violence, but I ask myself if I think this kid would have killed someone if he hadn't of been threatened/attacked and my gut answer is no.
Also told someone? What "someone is going to hurt me" .... and then what? They're not going to arrest the bully -_-. Judge found it was self-defence. Which sounds to me like it was an unlucky swipe/stab with the knife from a frightened 14yo who shouldn't have been placed in the situation in the first place.
ok so the best solution to bullying is for the victim to murder the bully? calling names and throwing punches are on a much lower level than *stabbing and killing* someone
It's hard to feel sympathy for someone tormenting someone else and then dying. If it turns out that the kid who was being bullied deliberately set out to murder the other kid then obviously he's the villain. If he was forced into a horrible situation then I feel sorry for both him and the deceased.
He obviously set out to kill him the knife didnt magically appear in his hand.
Or he carried the knife for defence. You can't say someone being in possession of a weapon equals intent. By this reasoning the NRA is full of soon to be murderers.
Please he had the knife to stab the bully not general self defense. This case is pretty clear cut. He got off because hes a child. If a grown man had done this to another man it would be premeditated murder no question.
Yeah obviously he couldn't of had the knife to try and deter the kid from hitting him or anything. How this murderer got away with slaying this innocent victim is beyond me.
Dude go can't go stab everyone that gives you shit. It's not how the world works. I'm not saying bullying fine. I'm saying he shouldn't have brought a knife and killed him is all. I mean if he had the balls to bring a knife he should have had the balls to fight him. At least nobody would have been killed. One families life is shattered cause they lost their child and the other kid is probably messed up for life cause he stabbed some one to death.
You obviously have no idea about what you're talking about. You have no idea what happens to a person that is forced to endure physical and psychological torment over a prolonged period of time. Fight back? What world do you live in where a gang of bullies aren't going to manhandle another person who hits their friend? When a weapon is involved the dynamics change completely.
not directly responding to you solhiem just on the thread
the implication being that Saavedra stabbed the bully a dozen times, implying bloodlust implying not self defense but premeditated murder? http://media.naplesnews.com/media/static/20111230150108.pdf Multiple stabs comes from Nuno continuing to attack Saavedra even after the first stab. It also fully points Nuno as being the aggressor and Saavedra tried a variety of ways to avoid the fight.
It also ignores that Saavedra went out of the way to avoid confrontation leaving the bus before his bus stop and not on the same bus stop as his aggressors, who still followed him and engaged to fight him.
On January 10 2012 15:10 KryptoStorm wrote: Bullying *sigh*. I can't even begin to try to explain how much I hate bullying, but more specifically to this case, some may see it as justice, i'm kind of on the line, yes the bully deserved something, but I would rather see him educated on the seriousness of bullying and the effects it can have on people rather than being murdered.
Failure of the authorities, not the kid in question, IMO. And before that, the parents of the bully in question.
Still true, though.
I blame parents most of the time, ofcourse some people are born 'different/disturbed/blablabla' but it is up to their parents to help them..
A parent cannot help their child when they are unaware of what's going on. It's all about communication. Even if they noticed something was wrong with the boy it would probably still be hard to get an answer out of him as to what was really going on especially at his age.
It's not so simple and straight forward as you make it out to be.
The kid probably thought he had no outs. He was backed in a corner. Not fun being stuck in a corner. This was obviously going on for sometime as he was carrying a concealed weapon.
What's the morale of the story? Stop bullying people. Treat them like you would want to be treated and everything is strawberries.
Isn't that a just a nicer way of saying parents failed to realize their kid was a bully or being bullied? Key word there being failed? I mean unless the guy had some serious psychological issues aka a budding sociopath or the like, it's first and foremost the job of the parents to help fix this behavior. After that, it becomes an issue for the school and then the law. The fact that this whole thing went down the way it did is just so sad because literally everyone involved failed. Except for the kid with the knife.
No.
If a child doesn't want to speak out it's pretty hard to find out what's going on even when a parent notices changes in attitude. In many cases they think their child is just going through puberty and rebelling against them.
Bullying can have a traumatizing effect on a child and affect them psychologically. Parents cannot fix or give help unless asked for it. Like I said. It comes down to good communication between both parent and child. Here's the thing. If someone's severely depressed good fucking luck with that. If you push a kid long enough. Eventually they will snap.
This kid did.
I think those kids broke him down mentally. In either case, its going to be a long road for him. Lots of counselling, anger management and mental health therapy.
On January 10 2012 16:18 Shymon wrote: This seems purely cut and dry here, legaly and moraly. The bully announced his intent to harm the boy and then actually carried out said threat, thereby commiting a serious crime. I belive that level of assault it a felony but i am not a lawyer so don't take that as 100% true.
Apparently being an unconvicted, untrialed felon leaves you open ground for being murdered.
On January 10 2012 16:06 LuisArcadia wrote: Hey just want to leave this legal document I found while browsing looking for information on the case. It has a lot of factual information that should add to the discussion: http://media.naplesnews.com/media/static/20111230150108.pdf
OP PLEASE add this document, as people probably shouldn't even comment if they haven't read this.
On January 10 2012 15:12 askTeivospy wrote: rofl at some of you for justifying this. he stabbed someone to death. HE KILLED SOMEONE. Bully or not he's a murderer, but its a dumb law and dumb laws are dumb
Are you really that delusional dear internet geniuses? If he was so forward thinking to bring of knife he should have been forward thinking enough to tell someone what was going to happen
I don't know. I don't like violence, but I ask myself if I think this kid would have killed someone if he hadn't of been threatened/attacked and my gut answer is no.
Also told someone? What "someone is going to hurt me" .... and then what? They're not going to arrest the bully -_-. Judge found it was self-defence. Which sounds to me like it was an unlucky swipe/stab with the knife from a frightened 14yo who shouldn't have been placed in the situation in the first place.
ok so the best solution to bullying is for the victim to murder the bully? calling names and throwing punches are on a much lower level than *stabbing and killing* someone
It's hard to feel sympathy for someone tormenting someone else and then dying. If it turns out that the kid who was being bullied deliberately set out to murder the other kid then obviously he's the villain. If he was forced into a horrible situation then I feel sorry for both him and the deceased.
He obviously set out to kill him the knife didnt magically appear in his hand.
Or he carried the knife for defence. You can't say someone being in possession of a weapon equals intent. By this reasoning the NRA is full of soon to be murderers.
Please he had the knife to stab the bully not general self defense. This case is pretty clear cut. He got off because hes a child. If a grown man had done this to another man it would be premeditated murder no question.
Yeah obviously he couldn't of had the knife to try and deter the kid from hitting him or anything. How this murderer got away with slaying this innocent victim is beyond me.
Dude you can't go stab everyone that gives you shit. It's not how the world works. I'm not saying bullying fine. I'm saying he shouldn't have brought a knife and killed him is all. I mean if he had the balls to bring a knife he should have had the balls to fight him. At least nobody would have been killed. One families life is shattered cause they lost their child and the other kid is probably messed up for life cause he stabbed some one to death.
Why would the victim fight the bully with no weapon? There is no "honor" to maintain because there was no "honor" from the bully in the first place (picking on someone who barely has any friends, someone's who's weaker, and ganging up on him with your friends). No one is arguing that the killing was a good thing. However, bringing the knife as self-defense, in my opinion, was the right thing to do. As you've said, you can't stab everyone that gives you shit. However, the victim stabbed this bully who drove him to the brink. So, no, he wasn't stabbing everyone who gave him a problem.
Consider the two kids' mentalities. One has been dealt psychological blows for a long time. Then he finds out three kids are going to beat him up and your classmates are just going to watch like the fight is some entertainment on youtube/tv? The bully's state of mind is much clearer. The bully has more options. He bears more responsibility in his own death.
On January 10 2012 16:18 Shymon wrote: This seems purely cut and dry here, legaly and moraly. The bully announced his intent to harm the boy and then actually carried out said threat, thereby commiting a serious crime. I belive that level of assault it a felony but i am not a lawyer so don't take that as 100% true.
So now let's step back and look at this if it was happening to an adult. This wouldn't be a thread, this would be a guy threatens another, jumps him leaving no avenue of escape (there was a ring of kids) and the would be assaulter gets stab for his criminal efforts. Does anyone care at all in this case? is this still murder to the people who would claim as such in this thread?
This was NOT name calling, this was pre-meditated assault with intent to harm. This was a serious crime. This had elevated itself way beyond petty bullying by the bully himself. there are repercussions to actions in life and being a teenager is no excuse to commiting violent crime, nor is it too young to suffer the defensive reactions of his target.
In short, what the bully did was the reprehensible thing, NOT the boy who stabed him.
If an adult did this it would be premeditated murder. If have a problem with you, thats the baseline we have a prior relationship, then i take a knife with me for the obvious intent of using it one you. Then I kill you. I go to jail for murder. The kid got off because hes a kid pain and simple.
Dude you can't go stab everyone that gives you shit. It's not how the world works. I'm not saying bullying fine. I'm saying he shouldn't have brought a knife and killed him is all. I mean if he had the balls to bring a knife he should have had the balls to fight him. At least nobody would have been killed. One families life is shattered cause they lost their child and the other kid is probably messed up for life cause he stabbed some one to death.
Actually, with the way state laws are going now, you can. Murder rates are miraclously low in Arizona (and in the rest of the country), because nothing is murder anymore. Its actually hard to get convicted of murder because of laws like this "Stand Your Ground" bullshit.
as one who has been bulied i feel that this is excactly the punishment someone like that that deserves. A bully who makes an other persons life misserable does not deserve a life at all (might seem harsh but if you ever have been bulied you probably feel the same way)
On January 10 2012 15:12 askTeivospy wrote: rofl at some of you for justifying this. he stabbed someone to death. HE KILLED SOMEONE. Bully or not he's a murderer, but its a dumb law and dumb laws are dumb
Are you really that delusional dear internet geniuses? If he was so forward thinking to bring of knife he should have been forward thinking enough to tell someone what was going to happen
I don't know. I don't like violence, but I ask myself if I think this kid would have killed someone if he hadn't of been threatened/attacked and my gut answer is no.
Also told someone? What "someone is going to hurt me" .... and then what? They're not going to arrest the bully -_-. Judge found it was self-defence. Which sounds to me like it was an unlucky swipe/stab with the knife from a frightened 14yo who shouldn't have been placed in the situation in the first place.
ok so the best solution to bullying is for the victim to murder the bully? calling names and throwing punches are on a much lower level than *stabbing and killing* someone
It's hard to feel sympathy for someone tormenting someone else and then dying. If it turns out that the kid who was being bullied deliberately set out to murder the other kid then obviously he's the villain. If he was forced into a horrible situation then I feel sorry for both him and the deceased.
He obviously set out to kill him the knife didnt magically appear in his hand.
Or he carried the knife for defence. You can't say someone being in possession of a weapon equals intent. By this reasoning the NRA is full of soon to be murderers.
Please he had the knife to stab the bully not general self defense. This case is pretty clear cut. He got off because hes a child. If a grown man had done this to another man it would be premeditated murder no question.
Yeah obviously he couldn't of had the knife to try and deter the kid from hitting him or anything. How this murderer got away with slaying this innocent victim is beyond me.
Dude you can't go stab everyone that gives you shit. It's not how the world works. I'm not saying bullying fine. I'm saying he shouldn't have brought a knife and killed him is all. I mean if he had the balls to bring a knife he should have had the balls to fight him. At least nobody would have been killed. One families life is shattered cause they lost their child and the other kid is probably messed up for life cause he stabbed some one to death.
Wait what? You think people don't get killed or suffer lasting injuries in fistfights? Maybe you should let someone whale on the back of your head for a few minutes and then you two can chat it out after you wake up from your brain hemorrhage and medically induced coma.
On January 10 2012 16:17 nennx wrote: there is no justification for stabbing someone to death unless someone is actually going to kill you -- this was not going to happen, regardless of what the kid thought or not.
when did our society get so fucked up that it became ok to kill someone who was picking on you
if columbine happened today, those guys would have been victims rather than criminals in this mindset that we're in
This kid stabbed a bully that was in the process of beating him in the back of the head. Klebold and Harris got fed up with bullies and decided to go make some bombs and shoot up a school. How do you even go about making this connection? And it's no longer simply "picking on" if you're getting your ass beat down.
On January 10 2012 16:18 Shymon wrote: This seems purely cut and dry here, legaly and moraly. The bully announced his intent to harm the boy and then actually carried out said threat, thereby commiting a serious crime. I belive that level of assault it a felony but i am not a lawyer so don't take that as 100% true.
Apparently being an unconvicted, untrialed felon leaves you open ground for being murdered.
Don't we have a justice system for a reason?
Is your stance one that you should let any crime be commited aginst your persons without resistance and simply report it to the cops later? let's replace the boy with yourself in this situation. A coworker (i assume you are out of school and employed but whatever) says he is going to beat you to a bloody pulp after work. Then when you leave he and a gang of several others trap you outside unable to run, he then procedes to start punching you in the back of the head, he shows no signs of stoping. You are under exterme emotional and physical distress. do you defend yourself?
On January 10 2012 16:18 Shymon wrote: This seems purely cut and dry here, legaly and moraly. The bully announced his intent to harm the boy and then actually carried out said threat, thereby commiting a serious crime. I belive that level of assault it a felony but i am not a lawyer so don't take that as 100% true.
So now let's step back and look at this if it was happening to an adult. This wouldn't be a thread, this would be a guy threatens another, jumps him leaving no avenue of escape (there was a ring of kids) and the would be assaulter gets stab for his criminal efforts. Does anyone care at all in this case? is this still murder to the people who would claim as such in this thread?
This was NOT name calling, this was pre-meditated assault with intent to harm. This was a serious crime. This had elevated itself way beyond petty bullying by the bully himself. there are repercussions to actions in life and being a teenager is no excuse to commiting violent crime, nor is it too young to suffer the defensive reactions of his target.
In short, what the bully did was the reprehensible thing, NOT the boy who stabed him.
If an adult did this it would be premeditated murder. If have a problem with you, thats the baseline we have a prior relationship, then i take a knife with me for the obvious intent of using it one you. Then I kill you. I go to jail for murder. The kid got off because hes a kid pain and simple.
Man carries knife. Man is walking home one day, man gets assaulted by three other bigger men who proceed to beat him up. Man fears for life, man stabs attacker in self-defence. Man found not guilty.
Dude you can't go stab everyone that gives you shit. It's not how the world works. I'm not saying bullying fine. I'm saying he shouldn't have brought a knife and killed him is all. I mean if he had the balls to bring a knife he should have had the balls to fight him. At least nobody would have been killed. One families life is shattered cause they lost their child and the other kid is probably messed up for life cause he stabbed some one to death.
Actually, with the way state laws are going now, you can. Murder rates are miraclously low in Arizona, because nothing is murder anymore. Its actually hard to get convicted of murder because of laws like this "Stand Your Ground" bullshit.
Its absolutely disgusting
I do agree that Stand You Ground has gone overboard in some states, but duty to retreat still wouldn't have applied here. The kid did try to retreat, multiple times. Except the morons kept following him. And even in states with more restrictions on self-defense, you're allowed to escalate one step further than the aggressor under most circumstances, sometimes more if there are multiple assailants. Steps being something like fists->knives->guns.
On January 10 2012 16:18 Shymon wrote: This seems purely cut and dry here, legaly and moraly. The bully announced his intent to harm the boy and then actually carried out said threat, thereby commiting a serious crime. I belive that level of assault it a felony but i am not a lawyer so don't take that as 100% true.
So now let's step back and look at this if it was happening to an adult. This wouldn't be a thread, this would be a guy threatens another, jumps him leaving no avenue of escape (there was a ring of kids) and the would be assaulter gets stab for his criminal efforts. Does anyone care at all in this case? is this still murder to the people who would claim as such in this thread?
This was NOT name calling, this was pre-meditated assault with intent to harm. This was a serious crime. This had elevated itself way beyond petty bullying by the bully himself. there are repercussions to actions in life and being a teenager is no excuse to commiting violent crime, nor is it too young to suffer the defensive reactions of his target.
In short, what the bully did was the reprehensible thing, NOT the boy who stabed him.
If an adult did this it would be premeditated murder. If have a problem with you, thats the baseline we have a prior relationship, then i take a knife with me for the obvious intent of using it one you. Then I kill you. I go to jail for murder. The kid got off because hes a kid pain and simple.
incorrect, he was assaulted before ever using the knife. Even if he was planing on using the knife for self defense it was just that, self defense. he was defending his person from the person who was COMMITING A VIOLENT FELONY ON HIM. Really i think the fact that he was actively being the victem of a crime at the time is being WAY glossed over.
Wow I just read the statement of facts from the court. Apparently throwing spit balls and syrup packets and making "unkind remarks" is enough to justify killing another human being these days. For a group that is generally pretty liberal TL is bloodthirsty on this.
On January 10 2012 16:18 Shymon wrote: This seems purely cut and dry here, legaly and moraly. The bully announced his intent to harm the boy and then actually carried out said threat, thereby commiting a serious crime. I belive that level of assault it a felony but i am not a lawyer so don't take that as 100% true.
Apparently being an unconvicted, untrialed felon leaves you open ground for being murdered.
Don't we have a justice system for a reason?
Is your stance one that you should let any crime be commited aginst your persons without resistance and simply report it to the cops later? let's replace the boy with yourself in this situation. A coworker (i assume you are out of school and employed but whatever) says he is going to beat you to a bloody pulp after work. Then when you leave he and a gang of several others trap you outside unable to run, he then procedes to start punching you in the back of the head, he shows no signs of stoping. You are under exterme emotional and physical distress. do you defend yourself?
this is not a retorical question.
I bring my gun to work and shoot this guy and his friends to death and make up some story about how he said he was going to beat me up to death after work.
EPT
