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On January 10 2012 16:32 Detwiler wrote:
Wow I just read the statement of facts from the court. Apparently throwing spit balls and syrup packets and making "unkind remarks" is enough to justify killing another human being these days. For a group that is generally pretty liberal TL is bloodthirsty on this.
I think this comment is ban worthy.
I don't think "spit balls and syrup packets and making 'unkind remarks' " is the evidence that the court used at all. (Especially since the 'unkind remarks' turned out to be threats of violence). I think (and by think I mean know, because I read the pdf, but think seems less aggressive and condescending) what the actions that the court said would justify the bullied child's actions were that, you know, he was being chased down by a group of guys that were bigger, had been making violent threats, and lead by a kid who was ACTUALLY HITTING THE KID.
But I mean, I TOTALLY understand how you interpreted that to mean, "spit balls and syrup packets". It must have been a euphemism.
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On January 10 2012 16:17 nennx wrote:
there is no justification for stabbing someone to death unless someone is actually going to kill you -- this was not going to happen, regardless of what the kid thought or not.
when did our society get so fucked up that it became ok to kill someone who was picking on you
if columbine happened today, those guys would have been victims rather than criminals in this mindset that we're in
While I agree to the majority of your post, there is no telling what will happen to you during a physical fight of this nature. There is no way that the bully victim will know how far the bully will go to in fighting him, so he took his own actions to defend himself. You can always criticize what happens after the actual event, but when you are placed right in it, you only have seconds to defend yourself.
Seven years ago when I was 18 right before I went to college, I was home baby-sitting my little one year old cousin. He was playing in my room, and I was on the computer listening to music. Then all of a sudden I hear loud banging at the front door. I suddenly went to the front door, but on my way I see the people who were there through a window. There were these 3 big obese black dudes holding bats and other things that could be used a weapons. I had no idea who they were or why they would be at my parent's house. They were banging the front door like crazy non-stop. In my hesitation, I ran to my cellphone and called 911. Next thing I notice, I hear them trying to break open the door to the backyard. I suddenly grabbed the keys to open the locks to my dad's handgun while talking to the 911 dispatcher that they were attempting to enter the backyard. I grabbed my cousin and moved him to my parent's bedroom, because it is the furthest room away from where they were attempting to enter the backyard. They eventually got into the backyard in about a minute and were peeking at the windows. I eventually walked into the hallway where they saw me (I had my gun concealed behind the wall of the doorway so I would not to provoke them), and after they saw me and the things in my house, it was apparent they got the wrong house they were supposed to be at. I'm asian, and although when you look into my parent's living room from the front windows, they don't have much asian props or furniture, but when you look at the other rooms you can tell we're asian. They calmly left my parent's residence and drove away from their car, but I got descriptions of them and the car. The police knew about their identities, because they had previous gang-related charges and that the fact that I said they were obese. If shit would of gone the other way, I would of sprayed bullets into them, because I was outnumbered three to one and they are illegally trespassing with possible weapons.
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I can see some people here haven't experienced bullying. Telling on them is not a solution.
i hope saavedra shrugs it off, not worth getting so hung up abput killing someone who deserved it
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On January 10 2012 16:46 Vilonis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 16:32 Detwiler wrote:
Wow I just read the statement of facts from the court. Apparently throwing spit balls and syrup packets and making "unkind remarks" is enough to justify killing another human being these days. For a group that is generally pretty liberal TL is bloodthirsty on this. I think this comment is ban worthy. I don't think "spit balls and syrup packets and making 'unkind remarks' " is the evidence that the court used at all. (Especially since the 'unkind remarks' turned out to be threats of violence). I think (and by think I mean know, because I read the pdf, but think seems less aggressive and condescending) what the actions that the court said would justify the bullied child's actions were that, you know, he was being chased down by a group of guys that were bigger, had been making violent threats, and lead by a kid who was ACTUALLY HITTING THE KID. But I mean, I TOTALLY understand how you interpreted that to mean, "spit balls and syrup packets". It must have been a euphemism.
spit-balls and syrup packets isn't a euphemism, he was just quoting the earlier examples. And you shouldn't ask for people to be banned. If you really have a problem with someones posts you should report them or PM a mod.
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I think that it's fine that he could get away with taking another persons life (I guess he didnt kill him on purpose) in self defense. But I really wish they had described how he died, and if he stabbed the guy more than once and where because it isnt that easy to kill someone, just by stabbing him.
And I'm sure the bully(bullies) is the scum of the earth, and he probably wont be missed anyways. And if it can be ruled against them that it was self defense, then they diffently where fucked up, and REALLY want to hurt the kid badly. So I think it's justified, some people in this world are just fucked up, and the total scum of the earth, fuck this bully.
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Cleaning trash off the streets. I see no problem here.
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On January 10 2012 16:41 LuckyMacro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 15:46 Motivate wrote:On January 10 2012 15:45 Cattivik wrote:On January 10 2012 15:39 Motivate wrote:
jesus how immature are some of the people on TL? how in any way does a person deserve to die for bullying someone? build a bridge, get over your childhood bullying experiences and grow up rather than trying to justify manslaughter over the internet. -Get told you're gonna get beaten up by a group -Group does it for fun and sadism -Be small and outnumbered -Reason to fear for your life cause the group keeps pushing the limits -When the moment comes, outgun the outnumberers It would be a bigger deal if he got convicted for murder after this imo. Like a break-out-of-jail card for every idiot who thinks harming others beyond physical dimensions is fun. i have no problem with him bringing the knife in self defence, but i don't see how stabbing someone 12 times is in self defence Have you even thought to consider the boy's mental state during the attack? I'm not saying 12 (or more) times was necessary, but he definitely could not have been thinking right. In his mind he was prob fighting for his life.
You typically don't make the most rational decisions under fight or flight
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Tragic.
Did we not have another thread on this not long ago? I said in there that 12 stab wounds seem abit... over the top, surely one stab would deliver the same message.
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On January 10 2012 16:48 Daimai wrote:
I can see some people here haven't experienced bullying. Telling on them is not a solution.
i hope saavedra shrugs it off, not worth getting so hung up abput killing someone who deserved it
Interesting idea. Idk if I could just shrug off killing someone. At least not my first kill. I wonder how the event has effected him. Hopefully he can forget about it, or embrase it and move on to a more peaceful place in his life (mentally speaking). It would be horrible if the incident scarred him emotionally and he just wasn't the same after it :/. I think he made the right choice though. If I felt like my life was threatened I would defend it any way possible.
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
On January 10 2012 16:23 HardMacro wrote:OP PLEASE add this document, as people probably shouldn't even comment if they haven't read this.
The real tragedy isn't that a kid killed another kid.
The real tragedy is that this didn't happen in some rural area in Afghanistan but in Florida. Multiple adults like teachers, parents and even the bus driver failed to notice this problem and stop it before anyone got seriously hurt.
The problem is that adults see this and always think "lol kids just grow up and ignore them" until someone gets stabbed. No point really arguing if the kid should be sent to jail or not, the problem is how are we going to treat school bullying from now on?
And if you haven't been bullied you don't know what you're talking about. Even if you tell the teachers they continuously demand evidence and/or just tell you to run away and ignore them. Growing up in sweden as a chinese kid has its perks.
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On January 10 2012 16:51 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 16:41 LuckyMacro wrote:On January 10 2012 15:46 Motivate wrote:On January 10 2012 15:45 Cattivik wrote:On January 10 2012 15:39 Motivate wrote:
jesus how immature are some of the people on TL? how in any way does a person deserve to die for bullying someone? build a bridge, get over your childhood bullying experiences and grow up rather than trying to justify manslaughter over the internet. -Get told you're gonna get beaten up by a group -Group does it for fun and sadism -Be small and outnumbered -Reason to fear for your life cause the group keeps pushing the limits -When the moment comes, outgun the outnumberers It would be a bigger deal if he got convicted for murder after this imo. Like a break-out-of-jail card for every idiot who thinks harming others beyond physical dimensions is fun. i have no problem with him bringing the knife in self defence, but i don't see how stabbing someone 12 times is in self defence Have you even thought to consider the boy's mental state during the attack? I'm not saying 12 (or more) times was necessary, but he definitely could not have been thinking right. In his mind he was prob fighting for his life. You typically don't make the most rational decisions under fight or flight
Indeed.
Comes down to what I said before. He was cornered. Told the bullies repeatedly he didn't want to fight. Guy starts pounding on him. He saw no other alternative unfortunately and went into survival mode in fear and anger.
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I firmly believe that this is the right decision and I love it because it shows some form of common sense from the judge.
Sure, bullying cannot be reason to justify being killed, but in the case of a young teen who was not able to take it anymore and resorted to defending himself it should not be seen as murder as well. I would put blame on school authorities as well as parents who more often than not turn a blind eye towards bullying. There are stories of students reporting bullying to teachers only to be turned away and getting bullied even worse for attempting to do the right thing.
While I am sympathetic about the death of the bully, I feel even worse for Saavedra. For a person so young to have gotten bullied for such a significant period and subsequently killed a person (justifiable or not), I hope he does not have any psychological issues going into young adulthood and so on.
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On January 10 2012 16:44 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 16:35 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 16:22 StarStruck wrote:On January 10 2012 16:04 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 15:22 StarStruck wrote:On January 10 2012 15:14 KryptoStorm wrote:On January 10 2012 15:11 acker wrote:On January 10 2012 15:10 KryptoStorm wrote:
Bullying *sigh*. I can't even begin to try to explain how much I hate bullying, but more specifically to this case, some may see it as justice, i'm kind of on the line, yes the bully deserved something, but I would rather see him educated on the seriousness of bullying and the effects it can have on people rather than being murdered. Failure of the authorities, not the kid in question, IMO. And before that, the parents of the bully in question. Still true, though. I blame parents most of the time, ofcourse some people are born 'different/disturbed/blablabla' but it is up to their parents to help them.. A parent cannot help their child when they are unaware of what's going on. It's all about communication. Even if they noticed something was wrong with the boy it would probably still be hard to get an answer out of him as to what was really going on especially at his age.It's not so simple and straight forward as you make it out to be. The kid probably thought he had no outs. He was backed in a corner. Not fun being stuck in a corner. This was obviously going on for sometime as he was carrying a concealed weapon. What's the morale of the story? Stop bullying people. Treat them like you would want to be treated and everything is strawberries. Isn't that a just a nicer way of saying parents failed to realize their kid was a bully or being bullied? Key word there being failed? I mean unless the guy had some serious psychological issues aka a budding sociopath or the like, it's first and foremost the job of the parents to help fix this behavior. After that, it becomes an issue for the school and then the law. The fact that this whole thing went down the way it did is just so sad because literally everyone involved failed. Except for the kid with the knife. No. If a child doesn't want to speak out it's pretty hard to find out what's going on even when a parent notices changes in attitude. In many cases they think their child is just going through puberty and rebelling against them. Bullying can have a traumatizing effect on a child and affect them psychologically. Parents cannot fix or give help unless asked for it. Like I said. It comes down to good communication between both parent and child. Here's the thing. If someone's severely depressed good fucking luck with that. If you push a kid long enough. Eventually they will snap. This kid did. I think those kids broke him down mentally. In either case, its going to be a long road for him. Lots of counselling, anger management and mental health therapy. Not fun. I disagree. As much as you say parents can't help unless it's asked for, that simply isn't true. If they don't know how to reach their child or how to help, then it's their job to ask and find out how. It's their job to recognize the signs and to get help for their child if needed. Just as much as it is the job of the parents of the bully to realize what their child is doing to others and to try and fix that as well. You obviously aren't a parent, or never dealt with depression. Unfortunately for me. *raises hand* Adolescent kids are pretty hard to break-in especially when they are closing themselves off from the rest of the world. Then we have a thing called depression. Oh depression. That's a biggie. Severe depression can be a life-long struggle and the only way to start the healing process is to let others in. Not everyone can read body language and the other semiotic signals of someone crying for help. It comes down to interpretation. Just like your intrepretation is very different from mine. Bullying isn't always so obvious. In this case, we have to consider every detail and like I said before. It's a shame the bus driver didn't step in or notice spitballs with cream and the other debachery happening in his/her bus.
While I am not a parent, I have dealt and am dealing with depression. Saying that if a kid is depressed then there is nothing the parents can do simply isn't true. What is true is that it's extremely hard to deal with properly and most people fail. Again, key word there being fail. In most cases, it's not an issue of "Nothing could have been done" but rather cases of "Oh this should have been done differently, I should have seen this, you should have done that, etc." You said it yourself, it comes down to interpretation and recognizing the signs. While you may say it's too much to ask for parents to recognize signs of bullying and know how to help or know how to seek the right venues for help, I don't think this is the case. In effect, you are essentially saying that the victim who may or may not have been depressed was at fault because he didn't do enough to get the help he needed from the people who should have been protecting and watching over him.
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While I agree to the majority of your post, there is no telling what will happen to you during a physical fight of this nature. There is no way that the bully victim will know how far the bully will go to in fighting him, so he took his own actions to defend himself. You can always criticize what happens after the actual event, but when you are placed right in it, you only have seconds to defend yourself.
Stabbing someone 12 times is not an appropiate action for defending yourself from someone who is unnarmed.
No one he should get away with absolutely no criminal penalties (I might agree that a murder charge would be too much), but our laws are so fucked up thats whats going to happen.
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On January 10 2012 16:49 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 16:46 Vilonis wrote:On January 10 2012 16:32 Detwiler wrote:
Wow I just read the statement of facts from the court. Apparently throwing spit balls and syrup packets and making "unkind remarks" is enough to justify killing another human being these days. For a group that is generally pretty liberal TL is bloodthirsty on this. I think this comment is ban worthy. I don't think "spit balls and syrup packets and making 'unkind remarks' " is the evidence that the court used at all. (Especially since the 'unkind remarks' turned out to be threats of violence). I think (and by think I mean know, because I read the pdf, but think seems less aggressive and condescending) what the actions that the court said would justify the bullied child's actions were that, you know, he was being chased down by a group of guys that were bigger, had been making violent threats, and lead by a kid who was ACTUALLY HITTING THE KID. But I mean, I TOTALLY understand how you interpreted that to mean, "spit balls and syrup packets". It must have been a euphemism. spit-balls and syrup packets isn't a euphemism, he was just quoting the earlier examples. And you shouldn't ask for people to be banned. If you really have a problem with someones posts you should report them or PM a mod.
You're right, that was over the top. It just pisses me off that everyone enjoys hurting each other so much (I say after sarcastically asking for a ban, but you know what I mean).
Stuff like this, and reading Columbine, always makes me want to say screw computer science and take physiology instead. Maybe actually make some progress into understanding why everyone is so anxious to prove how tough they are, or derive enjoyment from others pain. I just wish that school could actually be about learning or growing socially without all of the mean shit that kids do to each other getting in the way and ruining lives.
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
On January 10 2012 16:51 Hypemeup wrote:
Tragic.
Did we not have another thread on this not long ago? I said in there that 12 stab wounds seem abit... over the top, surely one stab would deliver the same message.
You obviously haven't been in a real fight. It probably wasn't 12 clean in and out stabs but a series of wild flailing resulting in cuts and scratches everywhere mixed with stabs. If suddenly 5 huge guys came up to you at 2 in the morning and robbed you and then decided to kill you, if you had a weapon you wouldn't stab them once and then back off and observe and analyze the situation "hmm... should I stab some more or.......???" You're most likely thinking GET THE FUCK OFF ME FUCK IM GOING TO DIE IM GOING TO DIE FUCK HELP MOMMY HELP PLEASE JUST STOP GET AWAY
You seriously can't blame the victim here being outnumbered like that and expecting him to stab once and assess the situation.
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On January 10 2012 16:56 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +While I agree to the majority of your post, there is no telling what will happen to you during a physical fight of this nature. There is no way that the bully victim will know how far the bully will go to in fighting him, so he took his own actions to defend himself. You can always criticize what happens after the actual event, but when you are placed right in it, you only have seconds to defend yourself. Stabbing someone 12 times is not an appropiate action for defending yourself from someone who is unnarmed. No one he should get away with absolutely no criminal penalties (I might agree that a murder charge would be too much), but our laws are so fucked up thats whats going to happen.
But he isn't unarmed. Sure, he might not carry a knife or a gun, but he has the "might" of a pack of bullies behind him, ready to step in as soon as their victim hits back.
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On January 10 2012 16:32 Detwiler wrote:
Wow I just read the statement of facts from the court. Apparently throwing spit balls and syrup packets and making "unkind remarks" is enough to justify killing another human being these days. For a group that is generally pretty liberal TL is bloodthirsty on this.
That's a strawman fallacy. Stop exaggerating little relationships like that. Why don't you recognize the bullying and the mental strain on the victim? It's not something you can brush off.
On January 10 2012 16:59 pyrogenetix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 16:51 Hypemeup wrote:
Tragic.
Did we not have another thread on this not long ago? I said in there that 12 stab wounds seem abit... over the top, surely one stab would deliver the same message. You obviously haven't been in a real fight. It probably wasn't 12 clean in and out stabs but a series of wild flailing resulting in cuts and scratches everywhere mixed with stabs. If suddenly 5 huge guys came up to you at 2 in the morning and robbed you and then decided to kill you, if you had a weapon you wouldn't stab them once and then back off and observe and analyze the situation "hmm... should I stab some more or.......???" You're most likely thinking GET THE FUCK OFF ME FUCK IM GOING TO DIE IM GOING TO DIE FUCK HELP MOMMY HELP PLEASE JUST STOP GET AWAY You seriously can't blame the victim here being outnumbered like that and expecting him to stab once and assess the situation.
People are talking about the 12 stabbings after it has been done, in the comfort of their room, in a logical state of mind, with the power of hindsight. This kid was not in an ideal state of mind, and he wanted to avoid the fight (as stated by the court's report), thus resorting to the knife after having been bashed in the back of the head.
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On January 10 2012 17:00 SolHeiM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 16:56 nennx wrote:While I agree to the majority of your post, there is no telling what will happen to you during a physical fight of this nature. There is no way that the bully victim will know how far the bully will go to in fighting him, so he took his own actions to defend himself. You can always criticize what happens after the actual event, but when you are placed right in it, you only have seconds to defend yourself. Stabbing someone 12 times is not an appropiate action for defending yourself from someone who is unnarmed. No one he should get away with absolutely no criminal penalties (I might agree that a murder charge would be too much), but our laws are so fucked up thats whats going to happen. But he isn't unarmed. Sure, he might not carry a knife or a gun, but he has the "might" of a pack of bullies behind him, ready to step in as soon as their victim hits back.
Or he could have maybe stabbed him once instead of 12 times to kill him. Don't know ~
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EPT
