Bully Victim stabbed Bully to Death - Page 29
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jungsu
United States279 Posts
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aderum
Sweden1459 Posts
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MavivaM
1535 Posts
Guys, we are not talking about countries in a civil war where respect and humanity are, more often, a luxury than a right. We are talking about a country where most of the people should live at least decently, where laws can help you and where people can find better solutions than killing people. If you carry a weapon with yourself you are ready to use it, period. And if you use a weapon, you should be fully aware of what it implies. There are several ways to solve bullying problems or at least to oppose to them: there are teachers and parents. If you feel ashamed of calling them there are friends. And even if you feel that you have to fight back since sometimes violence can't be avoided, there are better ways than stabbing people. Usually bullies can be cruel, but they aren't omnipotent. If not only because they live up to specific social standards that can be exploited, or because often they are easily scared by people who fight back. One can say that "man up" is the right solution, if something right exists. This kid can have all of my sympathy, it must have been extremely hard for him to live like that. But the moment he decided to carry a weapon with him, or the moment he decided to stab the other boy he stepped on a level several times worse than the one of the bully. People shouldn't get shit everyday. Some people shouldn't be humiliated, beaten, made fun of just for being themselves. It's not the way the world should work, but that's how it is. I think that laws sometimes can be a valid tool to change this course of the things, and if someone want to tell me that I am too idealistic... please let me tell you one more thing. People shouldn't get shit everyday and so on, but in the unpleaseant possibility of this event people are supposed to grow up, face their problems and eventually solve them. Not carrying a weapon and then saying to themselves "Oh well, I am being bullied and life sucks, but instead of trying to solve my problems with a different approach I have bought this knife. If the bully comes to me I'll stab him in the stomach because after all he deserves it and I didn't ask for anything." It's pretty obvious that the bully will come and I can't believe that this kid couldn't know it. After all if someone never reacts before I don't see why he should do otherwise. He didn't follow the bully in a dark alley to stab him, but this is homicide anyways. Again I have a lot of sympathy for this kid, and as far as I can know according to a simple thread his fault was more being stupid, coward and desperate enough at the same time than anything else. But no one forced him to buy a weapon and use it, and thanks to this there's a teen in a coffin and a couple of families destroyed. The judge bullshitted her way to save this kid from prison since she knew that it would have been completely pointless if not dangerous for him... humanly I agree but it's not fair. If you want to fight bullism you sentence bullies to civil volunteering and not letting a kid who has killed a bully go away unpunished. What kind of message is that? ...or if you are a parent, you help your child making friends and grow up. Seriously: some of us, probably a lot of us have faced some kind of troubles back at school. Looking back at then, tell me that they weren't somehow solvable or that they didn't make you grow up a little... Not pleaseant for sure, even I have some really hateful memories of my school period but back at then I fought back without killing anyone. It would be nice to hear if there are any bullying victims here and how did they solve their problem. | ||
Miss_Cleo
United States406 Posts
On January 10 2012 23:53 Geiko wrote: Self-defense isn't about what he could have done before hand, it's about a situation. At a certain time, he was being surrounded by 10 people that were physically threatening him, in the same way as a random guy on the street. In one case, because you "could have done" something about it, you should let yourself get beat up, and in the other case it's ok to defend yourself ? So Jose absolutely only had two choices: get beat up or stab someone to death? And he knew enough about that certain time prior to it happening that he was able to take a knife with him on the day. | ||
Velr
Switzerland10596 Posts
On January 10 2012 23:54 Caryc wrote: not saying u r necessarily wrong with the stabbing 12 times statement (which is a problem but we dont know how it actually happened) but what message would u prefer then? go bullies,if u know ur victims just make them fear death all day everyday? btw there is a difference between getting bullied (throwing pens..) and actually getting attacked.. what are you gonna tell the police? "yeah that guy throws pens at me all the time,i guess he wants to kill me!" not knowing every detail of the case i think its ok how it went. Pens = Job of the teacher and you should be able to deal with this yourself.... Hitting and so on = Job of the Teacher/Parents/Police. It's for sure not your turn to stab the bully to death... See, this guy knew in advance what would happen, he could have asked for help but instead he took a knive with him. This allready rules him out as a "pure" victim. | ||
Shafanhow
United States47 Posts
On January 10 2012 23:41 Jibba wrote: I'm curious what the bus driver had been doing the whole time. From the sounds of it, Nuno and his friends were continually disruptive and shouldn't have been allowed on the bus anymore, and they had to have known Nuno was getting off at the wrong spot, purposefully to follow Saavedra. Excellent point, also his being developmentally challenged is a salient point. Especially considering how all the people accusing the poor kid of murder seem to think he should have had crystal clear judgement about what to do as he got punched in the head while retreating. | ||
shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
On January 10 2012 23:50 Shafanhow wrote: Not just like any other dead kid, this kid being dead means that he won't sadistically ruin the quality of god knows how many more poor unfortunates lives. Whether it's his "fault" or not is irrelevant. I'd rather he could change. Obviously he enjoyed what he was doing to much to change because he did it for a year, just in this case. well having read a longer version of this story... this is clearly not the case. the kid who died was not a long-time bully of the 'victim'. he was a popular kid who was mean to the freshman kids. people testified saying he did not want to fight, but one thing led to another and he punched the kid on the back of the head... and he gets stabbed to death in retaliation. YAY... SCORE ONE FOR THE BULLY VICTIM! or not. in this case, the 'victim' could quite easily be the bully. the murderer seems like a deeply disturbed person.... and his family/friends should keep a close eye on him. from my POV he's quite literally got away with murder. | ||
Miss_Cleo
United States406 Posts
On January 11 2012 00:02 shizna wrote: well having read a longer version of this story... this is clearly not the case. the kid who died was not a long-time bully of the 'victim'. he was a popular kid who was mean to the freshman kids. people testified saying he did not want to fight, but one thing led to another and he punched the kid on the back of the head... and he gets stabbed to death in retaliation. YAY... SCORE ONE FOR THE BULLY VICTIM! or not. in this case, the 'victim' could quite easily be the bully. the murderer seems like a deeply disturbed person.... and his family/friends should keep a close eye on him. from my POV he's quite literally got away with murder. We might have a winner here. | ||
PJFrylar
United States350 Posts
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
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Miss_Cleo
United States406 Posts
On January 11 2012 00:00 MavivaM wrote: I find impossible for someone to say "oh, the bully had it coming so who cares. If anything, hooray since there's a bad guy less in town" Guys, we are not talking about countries in a civil war where respect and humanity are, more often, a luxury than a right. We are talking about a country where most of the people should live at least decently, where laws can help you and where people can find better solutions than killing people. If you carry a weapon with yourself you are ready to use it, period. And if you use a weapon, you should be fully aware of what it implies. There are several ways to solve bullying problems or at least to oppose to them: there are teachers and parents. If you feel ashamed of calling them there are friends. And even if you feel that you have to fight back since sometimes violence can't be avoided, there are better ways than stabbing people. Usually bullies can be cruel, but they aren't omnipotent. If not only because they live up to specific social standards that can be exploited, or because often they are easily scared by people who fight back. One can say that "man up" is the right solution, if something right exists. This kid can have all of my sympathy, it must have been extremely hard for him to live like that. But the moment he decided to carry a weapon with him, or the moment he decided to stab the other boy he stepped on a level several times worse than the one of the bully. People shouldn't get shit everyday. Some people shouldn't be humiliated, beaten, made fun of just for being themselves. It's not the way the world should work, but that's how it is. I think that laws sometimes can be a valid tool to change this course of the things, and if someone want to tell me that I am too idealistic... please let me tell you one more thing. People shouldn't get shit everyday and so on, but in the unpleaseant possibility of this event people are supposed to grow up, face their problems and eventually solve them. Not carrying a weapon and then saying to themselves "Oh well, I am being bullied and life sucks, but instead of trying to solve my problems with a different approach I have bought this knife. If the bully comes to me I'll stab him in the stomach because after all he deserves it and I didn't ask for anything." It's pretty obvious that the bully will come and I can't believe that this kid couldn't know it. After all if someone never reacts before I don't see why he should do otherwise. He didn't follow the bully in a dark alley to stab him, but this is homicide anyways. Again I have a lot of sympathy for this kid, and as far as I can know according to a simple thread his fault was more being stupid, coward and desperate enough at the same time than anything else. But no one forced him to buy a weapon and use it, and thanks to this there's a teen in a coffin and a couple of families destroyed. The judge bullshitted her way to save this kid from prison since she knew that it would have been completely pointless if not dangerous for him... humanly I agree but it's not fair. If you want to fight bullism you sentence bullies to civil volunteering and not letting a kid who has killed a bully go away unpunished. What kind of message is that? ...or if you are a parent, you help your child making friends and grow up. Seriously: some of us, probably a lot of us have faced some kind of troubles back at school. Looking back at then, tell me that they weren't somehow solvable or that they didn't make you grow up a little... Not pleaseant for sure, even I have some really hateful memories of my school period but back at then I fought back without killing anyone. It would be nice to hear if there are any bullying victims here and how did they solve their problem. Good perspective on things, that's the way I feel. | ||
Geiko
France1936 Posts
On January 11 2012 00:01 Miss_Cleo wrote: So Jose absolutely only had two choices: get beat up or stab someone to death? And he knew enough about that certain time prior to it happening that he was able to take a knife with him on the day. That's not what I said. I said that the two situations are exactly the same in terms of self-defense laws as in both cases, a persons finds himself in an equally threatening situation and defends himself (regardless of what he could have done to prevent it and regardless of what kind of weapon he was carrying and why he was carrying it). | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On January 11 2012 00:01 Miss_Cleo wrote: So Jose absolutely only had two choices: get beat up or stab someone to death? And he knew enough about that certain time prior to it happening that he was able to take a knife with him on the day. The fight was scheduled before hand. Both Saavedra and Nuno said on the bus that they didn't want to fight. To avoid it, instead of getting off at his normal spot, Saavedra got off with his friend and was planning to go to his house. Nuno's crew apparently noticed and followed him off at the spot. He took a knife in self defense and tried two different ways to avoid the fight, first by changing bus stops and then by trying to walk away. When he changed bus stops, Nuno followed him. When he tried to walk away, Nuno hit him in the back of the head. shizna, you've said a lot of stupid things in this thread but "one thing led to another" is complete bullshit. The thing that led to another is Nuno's decision to initiate a "fight." | ||
DarkPlasmaBall
United States43764 Posts
On January 10 2012 23:39 FunnyPicture wrote: I think murder is murder, he clearly planned on it considering he brought a deadly weapon to school. Did you read the article? He only used it once he was threatened repeatedly by a mob of kids, attacked, beaten severely, and needed to use it in self-defense. He almost certainly would have been killed if he hadn't used it. It saved his life. | ||
nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On January 11 2012 00:00 MavivaM wrote: I find impossible for someone to say "oh, the bully had it coming so who cares. If anything, hooray since there's a bad guy less in town" Guys, we are not talking about countries in a civil war where respect and humanity are, more often, a luxury than a right. We are talking about a country where most of the people should live at least decently, where laws can help you and where people can find better solutions than killing people. If you carry a weapon with yourself you are ready to use it, period. And if you use a weapon, you should be fully aware of what it implies. There are several ways to solve bullying problems or at least to oppose to them: there are teachers and parents. If you feel ashamed of calling them there are friends. And even if you feel that you have to fight back since sometimes violence can't be avoided, there are better ways than stabbing people. Usually bullies can be cruel, but they aren't omnipotent. If not only because they live up to specific social standards that can be exploited, or because often they are easily scared by people who fight back. One can say that "man up" is the right solution, if something right exists. This kid can have all of my sympathy, it must have been extremely hard for him to live like that. But the moment he decided to carry a weapon with him, or the moment he decided to stab the other boy he stepped on a level several times worse than the one of the bully. People shouldn't get shit everyday. Some people shouldn't be humiliated, beaten, made fun of just for being themselves. It's not the way the world should work, but that's how it is. I think that laws sometimes can be a valid tool to change this course of the things, and if someone want to tell me that I am too idealistic... please let me tell you one more thing. People shouldn't get shit everyday and so on, but in the unpleaseant possibility of this event people are supposed to grow up, face their problems and eventually solve them. Not carrying a weapon and then saying to themselves "Oh well, I am being bullied and life sucks, but instead of trying to solve my problems with a different approach I have bought this knife. If the bully comes to me I'll stab him in the stomach because after all he deserves it and I didn't ask for anything." It's pretty obvious that the bully will come and I can't believe that this kid couldn't know it. After all if someone never reacts before I don't see why he should do otherwise. He didn't follow the bully in a dark alley to stab him, but this is homicide anyways. Again I have a lot of sympathy for this kid, and as far as I can know according to a simple thread his fault was more being stupid, coward and desperate enough at the same time than anything else. But no one forced him to buy a weapon and use it, and thanks to this there's a teen in a coffin and a couple of families destroyed. The judge bullshitted her way to save this kid from prison since she knew that it would have been completely pointless if not dangerous for him... humanly I agree but it's not fair. If you want to fight bullism you sentence bullies to civil volunteering and not letting a kid who has killed a bully go away unpunished. What kind of message is that? ...or if you are a parent, you help your child making friends and grow up. Seriously: some of us, probably a lot of us have faced some kind of troubles back at school. Looking back at then, tell me that they weren't somehow solvable or that they didn't make you grow up a little... Not pleaseant for sure, even I have some really hateful memories of my school period but back at then I fought back without killing anyone. It would be nice to hear if there are any bullying victims here and how did they solve their problem. Not everything is solvable. This attitude is what often stands in the way of kids actually getting the help they need. Teachers, parents and whatnot thinks it will just solve itself, or someone will solve it for them (it's just kids!!!11). I've seen several people in this thread putting the responsibility on the bullied kid to "get the help he needed." That might work in some cases, or even most, but not for all and the "handsoff approach" is what lead to these kind of situations. | ||
Treva
United States533 Posts
From this story it appears that this kid had been bullied his entire life, which is why he moved to the school he was in when this stabbing took place according to the article. Everytime something like this happens we say "Now people should take this seriously." but how do they do that. Bullied kids don't want to make things worse and I think a lot of times they are afraid that if they do in fact tell someone about it, their bully will find out and give them even more crap than before. I think for stuff like this to stop bullied kids need to know of a safe way to let their story be heard and let appropriate action be taken. I don't know what that appropriate action is but since this school bully topic has come up a whole bunch this last year with more devastating results for either side, I think it's time for schools to start to get in place a program or system that allows people to stop this nonsense. It's a shame this all happened the way it did, no one should bury their kid. However, this will send a pretty powerful message to kids who do taunt and pick on others to maybe reconsider. Sad. | ||
Shafanhow
United States47 Posts
On January 11 2012 00:02 shizna wrote: well having read a longer version of this story... this is clearly not the case. the kid who died was not a long-time bully of the 'victim'. he was a popular kid who was mean to the freshman kids. people testified saying he did not want to fight, but one thing led to another and he punched the kid on the back of the head... and he gets stabbed to death in retaliation. YAY... SCORE ONE FOR THE BULLY VICTIM! or not. in this case, the 'victim' could quite easily be the bully. the murderer seems like a deeply disturbed person.... and his family/friends should keep a close eye on him. from my POV he's quite literally got away with murder. If the bully didn't want to fight why did he get of the bus to follow the kid? As far as what story is credible I'm going with the court investigation. According to that Jorge had been bullied by Dylan for at least a year. He had even skipped school and taken the long way home just to avoid him. He obviously was a scared, developmentally challenged kid who panicked. Saying that the victim could have been the bully just doesn't match the facts. | ||
Xiron
Germany1233 Posts
On January 11 2012 00:00 MavivaM wrote: I find impossible for someone to say "oh, the bully had it coming so who cares. If anything, hooray since there's a bad guy less in town" Guys, we are not talking about countries in a civil war where respect and humanity are, more often, a luxury than a right. We are talking about a country where most of the people should live at least decently, where laws can help you and where people can find better solutions than killing people. If you carry a weapon with yourself you are ready to use it, period. And if you use a weapon, you should be fully aware of what it implies. There are several ways to solve bullying problems or at least to oppose to them: there are teachers and parents. If you feel ashamed of calling them there are friends. And even if you feel that you have to fight back since sometimes violence can't be avoided, there are better ways than stabbing people. Usually bullies can be cruel, but they aren't omnipotent. If not only because they live up to specific social standards that can be exploited, or because often they are easily scared by people who fight back. One can say that "man up" is the right solution, if something right exists. This kid can have all of my sympathy, it must have been extremely hard for him to live like that. But the moment he decided to carry a weapon with him, or the moment he decided to stab the other boy he stepped on a level several times worse than the one of the bully. People shouldn't get shit everyday. Some people shouldn't be humiliated, beaten, made fun of just for being themselves. It's not the way the world should work, but that's how it is. I think that laws sometimes can be a valid tool to change this course of the things, and if someone want to tell me that I am too idealistic... please let me tell you one more thing. People shouldn't get shit everyday and so on, but in the unpleaseant possibility of this event people are supposed to grow up, face their problems and eventually solve them. Not carrying a weapon and then saying to themselves "Oh well, I am being bullied and life sucks, but instead of trying to solve my problems with a different approach I have bought this knife. If the bully comes to me I'll stab him in the stomach because after all he deserves it and I didn't ask for anything." It's pretty obvious that the bully will come and I can't believe that this kid couldn't know it. After all if someone never reacts before I don't see why he should do otherwise. He didn't follow the bully in a dark alley to stab him, but this is homicide anyways. Again I have a lot of sympathy for this kid, and as far as I can know according to a simple thread his fault was more being stupid, coward and desperate enough at the same time than anything else. But no one forced him to buy a weapon and use it, and thanks to this there's a teen in a coffin and a couple of families destroyed. The judge bullshitted her way to save this kid from prison since she knew that it would have been completely pointless if not dangerous for him... humanly I agree but it's not fair. If you want to fight bullism you sentence bullies to civil volunteering and not letting a kid who has killed a bully go away unpunished. What kind of message is that? ...or if you are a parent, you help your child making friends and grow up. Seriously: some of us, probably a lot of us have faced some kind of troubles back at school. Looking back at then, tell me that they weren't somehow solvable or that they didn't make you grow up a little... Not pleaseant for sure, even I have some really hateful memories of my school period but back at then I fought back without killing anyone. It would be nice to hear if there are any bullying victims here and how did they solve their problem. You are right in that it deliveres the wrong image, but in my opinion that boy did the right. Of course, using a weapon means you are aware of the fact that you could kill someone. But I cannot imagine what he should have done differently. I mean, he had no chance to avoid being surrounded by bullies, as that could happen everywhere, anytime in school, before school and after school. They were older, which makes them alot more powerful. It's not about 1 guy versus 1 guy of the same age. He knew that he was up against like 6-8(?) older guys. Nobody could help him in that situation but himself. Atleast where I come from, Anti-bullying by teachers and parents is useless. In the end, the boy will get ridiculed more, because he showed weakness. It's sad that the bully died, he should have learned from the experience and faced serious consequences. He didn't deserve to die, because bullys often times are bullys because of their social environment and not because they are just plain evil. | ||
Shafanhow
United States47 Posts
On January 11 2012 00:06 Hesmyrr wrote: Justifiable self-defense, sickening apathy toward the human life- bullied and the bully. To frame the situation on another words, these people who triumphantly rejoice at the death would by extension injudiciously hand death penalty to anyone who committed any crime equal to or greater than act of the bullying. I just might be able to accept this particular case of stabbing should not be punishable, but that does not mean I have to freaking ravish over how the attack was awesome, the divine hammer of retribution. Well said, nobody should be glad that Dylan died. Having said that, Jorge was completely justified in what he did. The court ruling was just. | ||
koreasilver
9109 Posts
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