While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned! - Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM - Comparing people to Hitler - Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum.
On December 15 2011 00:14 Shinespark wrote: Ridiculous. Coca cheats and Naniwa just worker rushes in a game that doesn't even matter and they both get the same punishment?
At the very least it's likely that Nani is going to start playing by the book instead of being a "bad boy".
How was Coca cheating? He threw a game that he had nothing to gain from. You know, kinda like Nani.
On December 15 2011 00:08 4ZakeN87 wrote: Okey this topic is getting me seriously pissed. First every native English speaking person that uses his better English as an argument for his superior intellect should be ashamed of himself. To boast about talking your native language is like being proud of your ability to walk. Do you laugh at persons in wheel chairs as well? Seriously, fucking sad.
Secondly the fact that I cannot say something because I am Swedish and thus “Swedish retard FANBOY” makes me want to choke someone. Because if HuK had done this I would be all for it.
“Fuck yeah, ban that fucking Canadian 4life!”. Or maybe not? Maybe I don’t like it because it is unfair?
The only reason Naniwa got banned was because he did this in Korea and secondly he did something that players do all the time just in a more obvious way. Naniwa got banned for doing a probe rush instead of a cannon rush. I don’t think that is a good reason to get banned.
The only error Naniwa did was not realizing that the Koreans would react this way, he could have forfeited 2 min later in a less obvious way and saved himself from this.
If you think Naniwa should be banned from GSL then you should mail Assembly and Dreamhack to ban Stephano, cause he has done the same twice. Shouldn’t even start talking about IdrA, you get banned for things that might be seen as disrespectful to other players? Hell IdrA should get a global ban from SC2 for life.
As you said, he got banned because he did this in Korea. If he goes there, he should respect their culture. You and anyone else who are defending him, if you were a progamer, and you had the chance to play in a tournament like this one, would you do things like he did?
On December 14 2011 23:55 XRaDiiX wrote: I thought people should see this good post from someone earlier shows how GomTV is picking favourites here and displaying double standards.
Why does NaNiwa get banned for something that there wasn't even a definite rule on banning people for probe rushes it's not about him winning or losing with it and to boot the game didn't have any relevance whether he won or lost.
He was obviously on tilt/angry after playing 3 games that he almost won. So NaNiwa had no reason to play his best in the last game except for showmanship;
He even said he was sorry for it in his interview. Etc
Completely unprofessional actions from GomTV
On December 14 2011 21:54 zanga wrote: *Ban MC from all the (seemingly FUNNY, previously that is) things he's done. Including Thumbs down, Dancing outside the booth, Waving his finger at the camera.. and many more.
*Ban Bomber for having such a BM game against MC in some MLG (dont remember which). Putting down tons of command centers in the middle of the map, doing an "orange" with 10+ CC Scans and dropping mules so many times over.
*Ban NesTea since in the Blizzcon finals he so obviously threw his game away and was just trolling around.
*Ban Coca for match-fixing. He didnt get disqualified as far as I know - he simply left the spot because of decisions in their team. I can assume GOM would've cared, but so far had theyve said anything?
..more examples?
"Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter. It is official that Naniwa is given a punishment"
1.-*Ban MC from all the (seemingly FUNNY, previously that is) things he's done. Including Thumbs down, Dancing outside the booth, Waving his finger at the camera.. and many more.
Ridiculous. Meant to please the audience, there's nothing in common between these and Nani's "play" yesterday.
2.-*Ban Bomber for having such a BM game against MC in some MLG (dont remember which). Putting down tons of command centers in the middle of the map, doing an "orange" with 10+ CC Scans and dropping mules so many times over.
Same thing. Nothing to see here
3.-*Ban NesTea since in the Blizzcon finals he so obviously threw his game away and was just trolling around.
Speculative, unfounded, and most likely false.
4.-*Ban Coca for match-fixing. He didnt get disqualified as far as I know - he simply left the spot because of decisions in their team. I can assume GOM would've cared, but so far had theyve said anything?
No they haven't so, like you say, it's likely GOM would have done something. Can't say for certain though, so again, pure speculation.
So how exactly is rushing with probes worse than BM'ing your opponent?
You're being short sighted... you need to separate 2 things:
-Koreans feel offended by this behaviour because they believe competition involves a degree of honor and all that. That's their culture and it's fine (I kind of agree on this point, but I'm not as strict about it). NesTea was probably dissapointed, some fans (me, for example) were dissapointed, the whole point of the tournament (showmatches, no matter if there's money involved, this cup is intended as a "celebration of starcraft") was mocked at.
-Rushing with probes in this situation, context, and manner (IE, not a valid strategy, since he just wanted to lose), is in violation of what nani was being paid to do, to participate in the tournament and play every match out. Why play every match? You could ask, the answer is that the format is laid down to you before the tournament starts. If nani didn't agree with the possibility of meaningless matches, he could have talked to GOM about it, or plainly rejected the invitation. By entering the tournament, he agrees and validates the format, no matter how flawed it could be.
By keeping this two things in mind, it becomes very evident why GOM went with this punishment. First of all, he denied customers of a match, he "disgraced" his opponent, and he mocked the tournament structure (keep in mind this is interpretating facts, most likely what happened here). Second, GOM has a duty as an entertainment provider towards its customers. Korean customers would have felt insulted if GOM had done nothing.
Personally, I think the punishment is excessive, particularly considering things like MC's booth bashing (which I agree was bad), which means there's some inconsistency at play too, but overall, I think GOM is right to "punish" (Disregarding the whole MLG thing and whether his spot was secured or not) nani, considering all the facts.
Naniwa even says he is sorry about this in an interview after GomTV is being unprofessional about this and revoke his Code S Spot for using an 'Cheese' Strategy it doesn't matter if the strategy he used was offensive it was still a strategy he decided to do playing the game with whatever cheese he deemed viable. Even if he could not possibly win with it he still chose to play that way; Where in the rules does it say you have to play a certain strategy?
Also Mr Chae being unprofessional calling NaNiwa amatuer prize money hunter
On December 15 2011 00:13 MayorITC wrote: His Code S status has been revoked. If anything, that's a one-season ban. He can still reach Code S by doing it the way most players do it: placing high in Code A.
And it's not a "Korean culture" thing. It's a professional thing where employees are expected to fulfill more than just personal obligations.
It's absolutely false when people say he had nothing on the line in the match against Nestea. He had nothing on the line in terms of advancement in the Blizzard Cup, but he still had obligations: to himself, to his fans, to his opponent, and to the tournament organizers. By failing to fulfill these obligations, he showed that he lacked professionalism. And the GSL was designed to be a professional tournament. If Naniwa doesn't want to be weighed down by these obligations then don't be a pro-gamer. Stick to amateur leagues and tournaments.
This entire debacle could have been avoided if Naniwa just spent an entire 30 minutes (if even that), playing a game against Nestea. The bottomline is that Naniwa chose to be selfish. That's the difference between Naniwa's scenario and all the other flawed analogies people are making (eg: sports team sending B-team lineups). Welcome to the real world where you can't always do what only you want to do. It's time to grow up. I'm sorry Naniwa had to learn it the hard way, but in the long run, he'll learn from this (if he's as smart as I believe him to be).
Good post, sums things up correctly. Too bad all the blind fanboys will never see the truth...
On December 15 2011 00:08 noaki wrote: I don't care if his spot is revoked, don't like him anyway, but if you probe rush or instead play some random all-in just to get over the game is pretty much the same, don't see how this is more offensive then just a lousy 4gate. And imo manner mules etc are way more bm than this.
This..... i still don't understand how people think GomTV has ground to revoke his Code S invite when probe rushing is no different than Bombers Manner Mules... or MC's Taunts...
because "manner mule" is acceptable in sc1 so it carries over to sc2, it is no longer regarded as true bad manner. While blatantly throwing games like 1-a 6 probes and afk for the next 2 minutes with zero micro is a offense that is equivalent to life ban if naniwa was a Korean
There weren't any MULEs in sc1.. ?!
Haha i guess you mistyped, otherwise it's just stupid
On December 15 2011 00:13 Pr0spect wrote: I find people using the 'Korean Culture' argument a bit out of line and resort into using it to justify a lot of things, I mean NaNiwa isn't Korean shouldn't they respect his culture rather than he only respecting theirs?
GSL brand themselves as "GOMTV Global Starcraft II League" not Korean Starleague, so in a sense they should have an more understanding towards foreigners not having the same outlook on the world as them, and not being forced to submit to their culture, cause I haven't seen Koreans being forced to submit to the American culture at MLG or the Swedish at Dreamhack?
My take on it.
What sort of things did the Koreans do in MLG or Dreamhack that were out of line with American and Swedish culture?
Pretty sure all the Koreans ate hamburgers at MLG.
On December 15 2011 00:13 xsnac wrote: To force players to play is way TOO COMUNIST . you cant force people to play games . if they throw games is just lose for them nothing more .
Rly naniwa put a lot of effort in qualifying for blizzard cup and whatever he wants to do with his hard work is his right . if he wanna throw away all games FINE HE ALREDY WORKED HARD ENOUGH TO GET THOSE GAMES IS HIS RIGHT TO DO WHATEVER HE WANTS TO WITH THEM .
Is like buying a car and the state will force you only to drive " no you cant set on fire your car you cant do anything else then just drive it " . rly ?
GOD WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU " FORCE PLAYERS TO PLAY " lets go back to comunism .
Naniwa agreed beforehand to play all the games. He agreed to the rules and regulations and more than likely signed a legal document acknowledging that he agreed to play all the games as per the rules and regulations of the tournament.
On December 15 2011 00:13 xsnac wrote: To force players to play is way TOO COMUNIST . you cant force people to play games . if they throw games is just lose for them nothing more .
Rly naniwa put a lot of effort in qualifying for blizzard cup and whatever he wants to do with his hard work is his right . if he wanna throw away all games FINE HE ALREDY WORKED HARD ENOUGH TO GET THOSE GAMES IS HIS RIGHT TO DO WHATEVER HE WANTS TO WITH THEM .
Is like buying a car and the state will force you only to drive " no you cant set on fire your car you cant do anything else then just drive it " . rly ?
GOD WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU " FORCE PLAYERS TO PLAY " lets go back to comunism .
forcing people to have respect to the organizer is being communist now?
and your analogy is so wrong. GOM is naniwa's boss, what he did is essentially flip his finger at his boss. I guess its also communist to fire people
On December 15 2011 00:15 mprs wrote: That is what you get for being honest and not lie to Nestea/GOM/viewers apparently. Faking an attempt at a game is much more honorable!
Ultimately he dropped the following four games, and despite not being crowned champion, Naniwa has presented one of the most captivating weeks imaginable, both in and out of the game. In the last week, Naniwa has rage quit of of a GSL match, flown half-way around the world, defeated the two most successful Korean Starcraft 2 players back-to-back, sparked a rivalry with Nestea, been the center of controversy in a rematch against Nestea, let a National Championship slip through his fingers and earned a seat in Code S.
Over the last few months, Naniwa has been training hard over in Korea to take his game to the next level, and his hard work appeared to pay off in Providence. The 2nd Place finish was good enough to earn him a Code S spot, so keep an eye on this MLG Champion as he goes toe-to-toe with the world's best during the offseason.
Naniwa, however, stayed focused on his goal. Amidst swirls of tabloid drama and misguided quotes, Naniwa kept his concentration on the task at hand. When his turn to enter the bracket finally rolled around, the Swedish Protoss defeated Nestea for the second time that weekend, and followed the feat with wins over Huk and DongRaeGu. In the end Naniwa failed to seal the deal as he lost four straight games against Leenock in the Grand Finals, but appeared to be a man with a renewed determination and a refined playstyle. With the pedigree Naniwa displayed over the weekend, it's hard not to be excited about Naniwa's 2012 prospects in Code S and at Major League Gaming Events.
At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A. At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, within the Top 3, regardless of country of origin, who does not already have Code S status. Code S status will not be awarded if all of the players placing 1st-3rd already have Code S Status. Code A status will be awarded to the next three highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, or not awarded at all, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player.
Naniwa was able to secure a huge victory and guarantee at least a Top 3 finish in Providence. That placement will gives him a chance to secure Code S and continues the run of world class players that Naniwa has defeated over the course of the championship weekend in Providence.
We didn't even know at that point that there would be Code S in 2012. This is before GSL format was finalized for 2012.
On December 15 2011 00:13 Pr0spect wrote: I find people using the 'Korean Culture' argument a bit out of line and resort into using it to justify a lot of things, I mean NaNiwa isn't Korean shouldn't they respect his culture rather than he only respecting theirs?
GSL brand themselves as "GOMTV Global Starcraft II League" not Korean Starleague, so in a sense they should have an more understanding towards foreigners not having the same outlook on the world as them, and not being forced to submit to their culture, cause I haven't seen Koreans being forced to submit to the American culture at MLG or the Swedish at Dreamhack?
My take on it.
Would you care to explain what part of Swedish culture GOM is not respecting?
MGL earned Naniwa a spot in Blizz Cup, not in Code S.
GOM is choosing 2 foreigner seeds for their Jan Code S, one of them was Naniwa. Now, instead Naniwa they choose Sen. They aren't taking anything from Naniwa, simply they will invite someone else.
IMO, giving spots for code S to foreigners for free... its like saying "we know foreigners can't compete, but its good PR so we are giving them some spots".
Anyway, I'm ok with them not inviting Naniwa... honestly its a light punishment since Naniwa didn't earned that spot (I repeat, he earned the Blizz Cup spot from MLG, and just that), if you ask me... he deserves a temp ban, but w/e. In other hand I don't like they inviting Idra and Sen for free... but it's their tournament and anyway it will be fun to see Idra and Sen fighting Korean Terrans.
On December 15 2011 00:14 Shinespark wrote: Ridiculous. Coca cheats and Naniwa just worker rushes in a game that doesn't even matter and they both get the same punishment?
At the very least it's likely that Nani is going to start playing by the book instead of being a "bad boy".
How was Coca cheating? He threw a game that he had nothing to gain from. You know, kinda like Nani.
He did it so his buddy Byun could maybe advance in the tournament. That's cheating. Nani did it cause he's so obsessed with 1st places that anything else doesn't matter to him. Coca != Nani.
On December 15 2011 00:14 IplayTerran wrote: So he got punished for breaking what rule?I can't seem to find the rule he broke on either the korean gom.tv side or the english one.But well,they would have pulled out a rule out of nowhere just to punish him I guess.
he got banned for being unprofessional,also I believe he can compete in Code A....or at least that what I heard from this thread about over a 100 pages ago..
On December 15 2011 00:13 xsnac wrote: To force players to play is way TOO COMUNIST . you cant force people to play games . if they throw games is just lose for them nothing more .
Rly naniwa put a lot of effort in qualifying for blizzard cup and whatever he wants to do with his hard work is his right . if he wanna throw away all games FINE HE ALREDY WORKED HARD ENOUGH TO GET THOSE GAMES IS HIS RIGHT TO DO WHATEVER HE WANTS TO WITH THEM .
Is like buying a car and the state will force you only to drive " no you cant set on fire your car you cant do anything else then just drive it " . rly ?
GOD WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU " FORCE PLAYERS TO PLAY " lets go back to comunism .
forcing people to have respect to the organizer is being communist now?
and your analogy is so wrong. GOM is naniwa's boss, what he did is essentially flip his finger at his boss. I guess its also communist to fire people
so now gomtv is communist in addition to being racist T_T. oh god what next? facist?
its only fair i believe for naniwa to lose his seed. So many players would kill to be in korea and have the opportunities naniwa has had and hes just treating it like trash. Not to mention it was Nesteas birthday, now thats just mean.
On December 14 2011 23:55 XRaDiiX wrote: I thought people should see this good post from someone earlier shows how GomTV is picking favourites here and displaying double standards.
Why does NaNiwa get banned for something that there wasn't even a definite rule on banning people for probe rushes it's not about him winning or losing with it and to boot the game didn't have any relevance whether he won or lost.
He was obviously on tilt/angry after playing 3 games that he almost won. So NaNiwa had no reason to play his best in the last game except for showmanship;
He even said he was sorry for it in his interview. Etc
Completely unprofessional actions from GomTV
On December 14 2011 21:54 zanga wrote: *Ban MC from all the (seemingly FUNNY, previously that is) things he's done. Including Thumbs down, Dancing outside the booth, Waving his finger at the camera.. and many more.
*Ban Bomber for having such a BM game against MC in some MLG (dont remember which). Putting down tons of command centers in the middle of the map, doing an "orange" with 10+ CC Scans and dropping mules so many times over.
*Ban NesTea since in the Blizzcon finals he so obviously threw his game away and was just trolling around.
*Ban Coca for match-fixing. He didnt get disqualified as far as I know - he simply left the spot because of decisions in their team. I can assume GOM would've cared, but so far had theyve said anything?
..more examples?
"Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter. It is official that Naniwa is given a punishment"
1.-*Ban MC from all the (seemingly FUNNY, previously that is) things he's done. Including Thumbs down, Dancing outside the booth, Waving his finger at the camera.. and many more.
Ridiculous. Meant to please the audience, there's nothing in common between these and Nani's "play" yesterday.
2.-*Ban Bomber for having such a BM game against MC in some MLG (dont remember which). Putting down tons of command centers in the middle of the map, doing an "orange" with 10+ CC Scans and dropping mules so many times over.
Same thing. Nothing to see here
3.-*Ban NesTea since in the Blizzcon finals he so obviously threw his game away and was just trolling around.
Speculative, unfounded, and most likely false.
4.-*Ban Coca for match-fixing. He didnt get disqualified as far as I know - he simply left the spot because of decisions in their team. I can assume GOM would've cared, but so far had theyve said anything?
No they haven't so, like you say, it's likely GOM would have done something. Can't say for certain though, so again, pure speculation.
So how exactly is rushing with probes worse than BM'ing your opponent?
You're being short sighted... you need to separate 2 things:
-Koreans feel offended by this behaviour because they believe competition involves a degree of honor and all that. That's their culture and it's fine (I kind of agree on this point, but I'm not as strict about it). NesTea was probably dissapointed, some fans (me, for example) were dissapointed, the whole point of the tournament (showmatches, no matter if there's money involved, this cup is intended as a "celebration of starcraft") was mocked at.
-Rushing with probes in this situation, context, and manner (IE, not a valid strategy, since he just wanted to lose), is in violation of what nani was being paid to do, to participate in the tournament and play every match out. Why play every match? You could ask, the answer is that the format is laid down to you before the tournament starts. If nani didn't agree with the possibility of meaningless matches, he could have talked to GOM about it, or plainly rejected the invitation. By entering the tournament, he agrees and validates the format, no matter how flawed it could be. There are other solutions as well, he could have forfeited before the match started (some people say he tried, I haven't seen any evidence to support that)
By keeping this two things in mind, it becomes very evident why GOM went with this punishment. First of all, he denied customers of a match, he "disgraced" his opponent, and he mocked the tournament structure (keep in mind this is interpretating facts, most likely what happened here). Second, GOM has a duty as an entertainment provider towards its customers. Korean customers would have felt insulted if GOM had done nothing.
Personally, I think the punishment is excessive, particularly considering things like MC's booth bashing (which I agree was bad), which means there's some inconsistency at play too, but overall, I think GOM is right to "punish" (Disregarding the whole MLG thing and whether his spot was secured or not) nani, considering all the facts.
This guy has his head on straight, glad to see some people are able to make sense in this thread.
Lol so many people must be in love with Naniwa on here. Cancel your ticket because of this decision lol. He acted unproffesional. I think hes a sore loser and threw a fit when things dont go his way. GOMtv has every right to ban whoever they want, its their damn tournament so let them make the rules.
EPT
