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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 00:33 Goibon wrote:
These sports comparisons are terrible. How often do players go through three excruciatingly close losses, all by themself, then be forced to play a meaningless match with only 30 minutes to get over the prior losses?
Never.
So stop acting like this is even remotely similar. This is Starcraft 2.
Some sports comparisons do work. In the NFL, teams at the end of the season whose season is largely over (0 shot at making the playoffs) will often bench starters and instead attempt to give rookies and less-used players a chance at real on-the-field games. This, in terms of the NFL, can cause problems similar to Stephano's games at Dreamhack where other teams are getting an easier final game because their opponent has nothing to truly gain from a hard-fought victory.
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On December 14 2011 00:33 mEatBucket wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:30 brachester wrote:On December 14 2011 00:23 mEatBucket wrote:
"Can't believe that kind of bastard is a pro-gamer"
How's the pause game into rock, paper or scissors strat going for you Choya? lol, it was freaking ladder, no one would have thought of the consequences like that. Beside, it has nothing to do with professionalism None of them played their games? Only difference is Choya recieved ladderpoints for a win, Nani wouldn't get shit.
ur completely missed my point -_-
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Oh my is this still going?
Solution; don't have meaningless matches. Done!
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Honestly where would you see some cry-baby sore loser quit like that in a REAL profession
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On December 14 2011 00:33 Goibon wrote:
These sports comparisons are terrible. How often do players go through three excruciatingly close losses, all by themself, then be forced to play a meaningless match with only 30 minutes to get over the prior losses?
Never.
So stop acting like this is even remotely similar. This is Starcraft 2.
This is madness!
You bring about another arbitrary distinction to just gloss over other people's arguments. You say 30 minutes is a problem, fine, look at Decathlons. Voila, another sport forces you to compete even if you've just messed up. Or look at SC2, pool play constantly requires players to overcome losses to play the next game. So, please take other people's arguments seriously.
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LOL who cares and why such a pointles game even played?
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On December 14 2011 00:24 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:16 Alacast wrote:
Posted this in the other thread, but figured I would move it here instead.
There was always something about Naniwa's personality that irked me and I had trouble placing it. As a result, I tended to root against him, but mostly because he always seemed to be playing against my man Leenock. It's truly a shame that he seems oblivious to the expectations of fans/sponsors when it comes to important events. How any "pro" Starcraft player could ever think that each and every game you play, let alone big ones against the world's top players, aren't valuable learning experiences and a chance to improve is beyond me. I vehemently hope he loses every tourney he enters from now on until he realizes what a fool he's been and drastically changes his perception of how to approach high-caliber SC2. Furthermore, he has single-handedly cast a bad reputation on every foreigner with hopes to succeed in Korean e-sports, burning the bridge many foreigners have been working very hard on the last few months. If you think every other professional player does anything other than half-ass when they're forced to play despite already having lost and have nothing to win, then you're very wrong. Very few players will have the motivation to play in such conditions, including Nestea, as he himself said on his Twitter. This is very noticeable in the MLG, where many players choose to forfeit their placement matches for the next season, even though there is some money on the line.
That many very well be true, but just because a handful of people do something doesn't make it right. The only way anyone ever improves at anything is to lose and try again, learning along the way. I can't think of any person on this forum who would choose to turn down a match against Nestea, even knowing you would get absolutely trashed, because you would learn SO MUCH. Naniwa, don't let your ego get in the way of getting better-it's the only way to become the best!
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I don't understand this. How did he "hurt esports" and the "credibility of the foreign scene" all he did was hurt his own reputation.
How do the actions of one player have ANYTHING to do with the foreign scene as a whole. Naniwa was not representing the foreigners, he was representing himself and his team. He was not invited as a foreigner representative for this tournament but QUALIFIED legitimately.
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I am a Naniwa fan which is why I am SO disappointed. I spent all week looking forward to a a Naniwa/Nestea rematch and then this is what I get? I know there was no money at stake, Naniwa, but think of your fans.
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Thanks, keep editing to add the Twitter reactions please!
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What bugs me is Nani's justification for doing it:
"I thought there is nothing at stake since neither me or Nestea can advance, and I know that unless I have something to play for I can't perform my best. I just felt like it wouldn't satisfy the fans at all with playing half hearted."
So his logic is, because playing half-hearted would be meaningless, I decided to just play with no heart. Lol.
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On December 14 2011 00:37 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:33 Goibon wrote:
These sports comparisons are terrible. How often do players go through three excruciatingly close losses, all by themself, then be forced to play a meaningless match with only 30 minutes to get over the prior losses?
Never.
So stop acting like this is even remotely similar. This is Starcraft 2. This is madness! You bring about another arbitrary distinction to just gloss over other people's arguments. You say 30 minutes is a problem, fine, look at Decathlons. Voila, another sport forces you to compete even if you've just messed up. Or look at SC2, pool play constantly requires players to overcome losses to play the next game. So, please take other people's arguments seriously.
You do realize that decathlons and other individual track related events actually have little to do with winning? (though of course it is helpful) The more important part is actually beating yourself(your previous times) and this is the case for many individual events like this(swimming etc), so it these events can't be used in conjunction with SC2 as winning is all that matters in SC2. Other sports that are similar to SC2, tennis, etc are very different in that meaningless games are pretty much never played and their is money in each game.
There is really NO reason to have the potential for pointless games in a tournament, let alone to broadcast them.
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I don't really get why people keep on saying the match was meaningless. Yes it won't change the outcome of the tournament as a whole but I was very interested in seeing if Naniwa can beat Nestea in Korea after what happened at MLG. There seems to be some overreaction but I can understand that Nestea and the Korean community are upset. Nestea had sth. to prove and Naniwa should have given him the opportunity to play a "real match". It was a showmatch at that point, but those still mean sth. otherwise people wouldn't organize them.
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I think no matter if it was a reasonable decision or not, it was a horrible PR move, as i'm sure Nani already had quite a bit of anti-fans in Korea, this didn't help, and made him look bad either way. As he himself said, if he'd just 4gated or some other all-in which probably won't work, nobody would care, maybe a few people would make fun of him for all-ining, but there wouldn't be such an uproar.
Bad decision by nani, but I really don't think he gives a fuck. It seems nani is more prone to letting out his emotions and letting it get to him/decide his games (much like IdrA, at least in previous instances), and he is (and always has been) brutally honest, both in game and in interviews. If he sees a hopeless situation (like today, being down 0-3) he doesn't bother trying to play it out. He plays to win, not for the fans.
At least that's what I can gather. I don't think that excuses any of his actions, it's just an observation on the way nani acts in an out of game.
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On December 14 2011 00:35 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:33 mEatBucket wrote:On December 14 2011 00:30 brachester wrote:On December 14 2011 00:23 mEatBucket wrote:
"Can't believe that kind of bastard is a pro-gamer"
How's the pause game into rock, paper or scissors strat going for you Choya? lol, it was freaking ladder, no one would have thought of the consequences like that. Beside, it has nothing to do with professionalism None of them played their games? Only difference is Choya recieved ladderpoints for a win, Nani wouldn't get shit. ur completely missed my point -_-
So becuase it was ladder, it was more professional to gamble games then to throw away a useless game?
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On December 14 2011 00:32 zidaneshead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:10 Giriath wrote:On December 14 2011 00:00 zidaneshead wrote:On December 13 2011 23:55 Giriath wrote:On December 13 2011 23:50 zidaneshead wrote:On December 13 2011 23:47 HMzK wrote:
Every single nerd crying about this, are just selfish and they are killing esports. Gotta man up. One thumbs down from a swede and TL goes crazy. It is so retarded. Stop being selfish. The match was pointless for NANIWA, HE is what matters in the GSL not US, not FIRST however. SORRY. You're giving us as fans way too little credit. If we weren't around to watch Naniwa play, what value would he as a skilled Starcraft 2 player have? If it wasn't our money paying to watch GOM or MLG, if it wasn't our eyes that were watching these games being played, then where does the money in this sport come from? Advertisers paying for their ads to be watched by no one? Nope. Tournaments being run when no one shows up to watch them? Nope. A video game being created if no one is going to buy them? Nope. We as fans are the backbone of e-sports, so yes, when I pay to watch someone play, I expect those players to give me respect in kind and put on a good match. I don't think you'd enjoy a tournament where the pro players don't have anything to win, especially if they were all upset and not wanting to play; they wouldn't be good matches. It's up to GOM to provide us with entertaining matches. Not the players. They have money to win because WE make sure they have money to win by paying for their product. That money in turn goes to Naniwa's pocket. He gets sponsors, he gets tournament winnings, he gets money just for PARTICIPATING not only because he's good at the game, but because we're there to front the dough and give the game and the players that play them attention. I partly agree that GOM needs to provide a tournament format that doesn't allow for these extra matches to be played, but Naniwa, as a so-called Professional, has an obligation no matter what the format is. Instead of throwing matches, or complaining that a tournament is "a joke" in MLG's case, he should be playing with as much effort as he can. If that leads to a bad match, so be it. Tournaments and the livelihood of E-Sports professional play exists because there are fans, yes, but there would be no tournaments or E-Sports if the players did not get some form (or at least the chance of) compensation for their public matches, because all matches would be bad. I would argue that NaNiWa actually did good, deciding not to play at all instead of playing a bad match. If he asked to forfeit the match beforehand, then it is even more GOM's fault for focing players to play matches they have no motivation to play. I'm not arguing that they don't deserve to be compensated, they do, and that's what we're all trying to do right? Put the money into the sport, for the current players and for future ones? A lot of that money comes from sponsors, but the sponsors don't invest if there aren't fans that passionately follow SC2 and invest their own dollars into the sport itself and the products that respect and support the sport. So yes, at the end of the day, the fan base is the core of any successful sport, or game, or whatever people want to call it.
Yes, and the fans don't want to watch bad games, which is what this format promotes. NaNiWa made a statement about that, intentionally or not. Like I said, it's also unfair to the players if some players can advance by playing opponents who won't give it their all because they've already lost (and nearly everyone who has will, whatever they say publicly), while some can't.
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Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a semi-popular video from MLG of people coinflipping for "meaningless" games?
Those games surely could have produced entertaining vods, replays, or otherwise content available.
However, people understand that after the buildup of preparing for a huge tournament like an MLG or a Blizzard Cup, that getting knocked out early is not fun, and then proceeding to have to play more games with the mindset of having already been destroyed is just devastating.
Perhaps the koreans feel differently, but IMO the community seems a bit hypocritical for attacking naniwa, when this is in no way something exclusive to him.
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On December 14 2011 00:42 BlueSpace wrote:
I don't really get why people keep on saying the match was meaningless. Yes it won't change the outcome of the tournament as a whole but I was very interested in seeing if Naniwa can beat Nestea in Korea after what happened at MLG. There seems to be some overreaction but I can understand that Nestea and the Korean community are upset. Nestea had sth. to prove and Naniwa should have given him the opportunity to play a "real match". It was a showmatch at that point, but those still mean sth. otherwise people wouldn't organize them.
Showmatches usually have a prize pool on the line still. Which is why its participants still try to win the game. It's only really interesting if both players are trying their best to win. With nothing on the line, it's hard to guess if either player is really giving it their all.
Lots of people in tournaments simply don't care about their relatively meaningless games. Some play them out, some don't. The better formats don't even have players play meaningless matches specifically to avoid this problem.
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On December 14 2011 00:27 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:21 hkf wrote:
I'll give naniwa till end of the week to be either kicked from qantic. Either kicked or ... ? Was that a threat or something?  As for the meaningless game argument, I'd like to point out two things. A) In other sports, players still compete after losing the possibility of winning. For example, last week Real Madrid played Ajax, and even though RM has guaranteed the top spot, they still played most of their A team, played attacking football and took down Ajax 3-0 (ruining Ajax's chances of going through). Everybody lauded this, and there was a full stadium watching the game. I do hope SC2 players don't think their time and effort in a game so vastly outweighs the effort RM puts into a game, that they cannot afford to play a game. B) Secondly, meaningful is ambiguous. It could mean that it affects a player's chances at winning. In this case, the game between Naniwa and Nestea was meaningless. But the second meaning asks for the meaning of the game. After so much hype by commentators, organizers, teams and Naniwa and Nestea themselves, tons of people were looking forward to the game happening. In that sense, the game was incredibly meaninful for many fans, as would have been evident for anyone looking at threads/twitter accounts etc before the match started.
I wish because I would boot him out instantly.
like your examples I can name countless professional sporting situations that are either side of this, ie NZ playing vs USA or some tier 3 country in rugby, and either fielding their A team or the B team or whatever. It's just about professionalism, not 'giving fans a good game'.
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On December 14 2011 00:41 Silver777 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:37 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 14 2011 00:33 Goibon wrote:
These sports comparisons are terrible. How often do players go through three excruciatingly close losses, all by themself, then be forced to play a meaningless match with only 30 minutes to get over the prior losses?
Never.
So stop acting like this is even remotely similar. This is Starcraft 2. This is madness! You bring about another arbitrary distinction to just gloss over other people's arguments. You say 30 minutes is a problem, fine, look at Decathlons. Voila, another sport forces you to compete even if you've just messed up. Or look at SC2, pool play constantly requires players to overcome losses to play the next game. So, please take other people's arguments seriously. You do realize that decathlons and other individual track related events actually have little to do with winning? (though of course it is helpful) The more important part is actually beating yourself(your previous times) and this is the case for many individual events like this(swimming etc), so it these events can't be used in conjunction with SC2 as winning is all that matters in SC2. Other sports that are similar to SC2, tennis, etc are very different in that meaningless games are pretty much never played and their is money in each game. There is really NO reason to have the potential for pointless games in a tournament, let alone to broadcast them.
Yeah, decathlon's are different in many ways, I only want to argue against the arrogant guy I quoted who just throws up random distinctions. And, in this sense, the distinction you introduce isn't helpful either. If a decathlon athlete messes up the pole vault, for example, he can no longer win nor get a personal best. They are still expected to compete until the end.
But I think it's silly to think that these distinctions between sports negate valid conclusions from being drawn from comparisons. It's fine to talk about distinctions, but they are not enough to dismiss arguments outright.
As for "pointless games" please see my post above.
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EPT
