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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 00:41 zidaneshead wrote:
What bugs me is Nani's justification for doing it:
"I thought there is nothing at stake since neither me or Nestea can advance, and I know that unless I have something to play for I can't perform my best. I just felt like it wouldn't satisfy the fans at all with playing half hearted."
So his logic is, because playing half-hearted would be meaningless, I decided to just play with no heart. Lol.
Uh, no. He decided not to play at all. Maybe he even asked to forfeit.
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On December 14 2011 00:44 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:32 zidaneshead wrote:On December 14 2011 00:10 Giriath wrote:On December 14 2011 00:00 zidaneshead wrote:On December 13 2011 23:55 Giriath wrote:On December 13 2011 23:50 zidaneshead wrote:On December 13 2011 23:47 HMzK wrote:
Every single nerd crying about this, are just selfish and they are killing esports. Gotta man up. One thumbs down from a swede and TL goes crazy. It is so retarded. Stop being selfish. The match was pointless for NANIWA, HE is what matters in the GSL not US, not FIRST however. SORRY. You're giving us as fans way too little credit. If we weren't around to watch Naniwa play, what value would he as a skilled Starcraft 2 player have? If it wasn't our money paying to watch GOM or MLG, if it wasn't our eyes that were watching these games being played, then where does the money in this sport come from? Advertisers paying for their ads to be watched by no one? Nope. Tournaments being run when no one shows up to watch them? Nope. A video game being created if no one is going to buy them? Nope. We as fans are the backbone of e-sports, so yes, when I pay to watch someone play, I expect those players to give me respect in kind and put on a good match. I don't think you'd enjoy a tournament where the pro players don't have anything to win, especially if they were all upset and not wanting to play; they wouldn't be good matches. It's up to GOM to provide us with entertaining matches. Not the players. They have money to win because WE make sure they have money to win by paying for their product. That money in turn goes to Naniwa's pocket. He gets sponsors, he gets tournament winnings, he gets money just for PARTICIPATING not only because he's good at the game, but because we're there to front the dough and give the game and the players that play them attention. I partly agree that GOM needs to provide a tournament format that doesn't allow for these extra matches to be played, but Naniwa, as a so-called Professional, has an obligation no matter what the format is. Instead of throwing matches, or complaining that a tournament is "a joke" in MLG's case, he should be playing with as much effort as he can. If that leads to a bad match, so be it. Tournaments and the livelihood of E-Sports professional play exists because there are fans, yes, but there would be no tournaments or E-Sports if the players did not get some form (or at least the chance of) compensation for their public matches, because all matches would be bad. I would argue that NaNiWa actually did good, deciding not to play at all instead of playing a bad match. If he asked to forfeit the match beforehand, then it is even more GOM's fault for focing players to play matches they have no motivation to play. I'm not arguing that they don't deserve to be compensated, they do, and that's what we're all trying to do right? Put the money into the sport, for the current players and for future ones? A lot of that money comes from sponsors, but the sponsors don't invest if there aren't fans that passionately follow SC2 and invest their own dollars into the sport itself and the products that respect and support the sport. So yes, at the end of the day, the fan base is the core of any successful sport, or game, or whatever people want to call it. Yes, and the fans don't want to watch bad games, which is what this format promotes. NaNiWa made a statement about that, intentionally or not. Like I said, it's also unfair to the players if some players can advance by playing opponents who won't give it their all because they've already lost (and nearly everyone who has will, whatever they say publicly), while some can't.
And who says it would've been a bad game? Nestea was clearly ready, even though I'm sure he was just as disappointed to lose.
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Is it just me or does GSL feel like some sort of sect where everyone has to behave and do as being told. It feels like the korean players are robots.
That Choya guy deserve to get lectured also for calling someone a bastard online, what a coward.
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On December 14 2011 00:45 natebreen wrote:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a semi-popular video from MLG of people coinflipping for "meaningless" games?
Those games surely could have produced entertaining vods, replays, or otherwise content available.
However, people understand that after the buildup of preparing for a huge tournament like an MLG or a Blizzard Cup, that getting knocked out early is not fun, and then proceeding to have to play more games with the mindset of having already been destroyed is just devastating.
Perhaps the koreans feel differently, but IMO the community seems a bit hypocritical for attacking naniwa, when this is in no way something exclusive to him.
The difference is that they are not Naniwa. If Naniwa did the ogs.MC throat slit celebration people would call it a death threat and try to get him prosecuted..
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On December 14 2011 00:47 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:41 zidaneshead wrote:
What bugs me is Nani's justification for doing it:
"I thought there is nothing at stake since neither me or Nestea can advance, and I know that unless I have something to play for I can't perform my best. I just felt like it wouldn't satisfy the fans at all with playing half hearted."
So his logic is, because playing half-hearted would be meaningless, I decided to just play with no heart. Lol. Uh, no. He decided not to play at all. Maybe he even asked to forfeit.
Tomato Tomahto.
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On December 14 2011 00:49 Umilard wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:45 natebreen wrote:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a semi-popular video from MLG of people coinflipping for "meaningless" games?
Those games surely could have produced entertaining vods, replays, or otherwise content available.
However, people understand that after the buildup of preparing for a huge tournament like an MLG or a Blizzard Cup, that getting knocked out early is not fun, and then proceeding to have to play more games with the mindset of having already been destroyed is just devastating.
Perhaps the koreans feel differently, but IMO the community seems a bit hypocritical for attacking naniwa, when this is in no way something exclusive to him. The difference is that they are not Naniwa. If Naniwa did the ogs.MC throat slit celebration people would call it a death threat and try to get him prosecuted..
At worst people would call him a copycat of MC
Stop trying to troll. You aren't very good at it.
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This seems so completely blown out of proportion. The idea that he shouldn't be able to participate in the GSL because he threw a game he considered meaningless is mind boggling.
More then any other foreigner in the world, Naniwa has proven that he deserves to be in Korea.
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On December 14 2011 00:49 Umilard wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:45 natebreen wrote:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a semi-popular video from MLG of people coinflipping for "meaningless" games?
Those games surely could have produced entertaining vods, replays, or otherwise content available.
However, people understand that after the buildup of preparing for a huge tournament like an MLG or a Blizzard Cup, that getting knocked out early is not fun, and then proceeding to have to play more games with the mindset of having already been destroyed is just devastating.
Perhaps the koreans feel differently, but IMO the community seems a bit hypocritical for attacking naniwa, when this is in no way something exclusive to him. The difference is that they are not Naniwa. If Naniwa did the ogs.MC throat slit celebration people would call it a death threat and try to get him prosecuted..
Pretty much my point.
Of course you will be called biased for being a Swedish fan, but honestly I don't see how you can claim to be objective and still single him out like this.
People need to realize that the fault should lay with the tournament.
If you want players to play all their matches out seriously and provide exciting performances when they've been knocked out of a group 0-3, then perhaps you need to consider consolation prizes or motivating factors.
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I dunno if this has been posted but
@MKPS2
I wonder what all the gamers, who wanted to be on that stage, thought after this game.... I myself wanted this opportunity really badly.
@IM_NesTea_
After calming myself down after playing terribly, the opponent does something even more crazy.
@MVPGuineapig
There are many other players that wanted to play in that league, but couldn't. Is he mocking all of us?
@SC2MVP
The thing that makes me angry the most is that NesTea was practicing past midnight, even though it was his birthday... Things shouldn't have been this way.
@SC2MVP
I'm glad that Quantic and Complexity made that deal. He could have been staying at our team house... That was the most disappointing game as at SC2 fan.
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Ahh Naniwa.... I knew something like this would happen as soon as he went 0-3.
He's still an amazing player but it'd help if he was better mannered, then again, he cares more about being the best player over anything.
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On December 14 2011 00:45 natebreen wrote:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a semi-popular video from MLG of people coinflipping for "meaningless" games?
Those games surely could have produced entertaining vods, replays, or otherwise content available.
However, people understand that after the buildup of preparing for a huge tournament like an MLG or a Blizzard Cup, that getting knocked out early is not fun, and then proceeding to have to play more games with the mindset of having already been destroyed is just devastating.
Perhaps the koreans feel differently, but IMO the community seems a bit hypocritical for attacking naniwa, when this is in no way something exclusive to him.
People on here are mostly too dumb to understand that this is an issue that isn't exclusive to NaNiWa or this particular game.
And most of the Koreans appear fond of pretending they play their best in a situation like this, or think that it's better to provide the fans with half-assed games instead of forfeiting or complaining about the format, making the competition unfair to the players in the process.
I think we can draw from this that the community remains largely dumb, and that many Korean players and their teams consider PR more important than being forthright.
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On December 14 2011 00:52 PassiveAce wrote:
This seems so completely blown out of proportion. The idea that he shouldn't be able to participate in the GSL because he throw a game he considered meaningless is mind boggling.
More then any other foreigner in the world, Naniwa has proven that he deserves to be in Korea.
Huk has stayed in Code S for several seasons. Naniwa can't win a match in Code A. Sure, he deserves to be in Korea but don't make generalizing statements that he deserves it the most.
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I agree that this seems a bit out of place. Naniwa threw the game because he did not want to play. I don't see the disrespect, but I could understand that he was so upset that he just simply didn't want to deal with more dissapointment/anger/whatever, and that's why he gg'ed. And from a proffessional and personal level, I can understand that. That being said, if he KNEW that it was such a huge thing for the koreans (and esp for his opponent Nestea), then he should have respected him enough to just say "fuck it, I'm cannon rushing/4gating" something like that.
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On December 14 2011 00:52 CanucksJC wrote:
I dunno if this has been posted but
@MKPS2
I wonder what all the gamers, who wanted to be on that stage, thought after this game.... I myself wanted this opportunity really badly
@MVPGuineapig
There are many other players that wanted to play in that league, but couldn't. Is he mocking all of us?
Yes, Naniwa did this specifically to get angry responses from over-reacting Koreans.
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PS For all their bravado and claims of politeness, the koreans are by far the most biased group in all of e-sports.
If this was one of their players I guarantee the tweets would speak of how sorry they were that "so and so lost his heart."
and "I hope he can feel better and practice and return to form. I know he can. Fighting!"
etc.
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really looking forward to no more naniwa in gsl.
GOM FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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United States23455 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:55 Weemoed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:52 CanucksJC wrote:
I dunno if this has been posted but
@MKPS2
I wonder what all the gamers, who wanted to be on that stage, thought after this game.... I myself wanted this opportunity really badly
@MVPGuineapig
There are many other players that wanted to play in that league, but couldn't. Is he mocking all of us? Yes, Naniwa did this specifically to get angry responses from over-reacting Koreans.
They're not over-reacting. They're just frustrated/mad that Naniwa was given a chance to participate in one of the biggest tournaments of the year and didn't play every game to his fullest.
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On December 14 2011 00:56 natebreen wrote:
PS For all their bravado and claims of politeness, the koreans are by far the most biased group in all of e-sports.
If this was one of their players I guarantee the tweets would speak of how sorry they were that "so and so lost his heart."
and "I hope he can feel better and practice and return to form. I know he can. Fighting!"
etc.
No, the guy would have been bashed pretty much the same...
Look at what SlayerS did for Coca. It had nothing to do with GOM, but Coca got punished really badly just for having tarnished the SlayerS name.
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On December 14 2011 00:44 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:32 zidaneshead wrote:On December 14 2011 00:10 Giriath wrote:On December 14 2011 00:00 zidaneshead wrote:On December 13 2011 23:55 Giriath wrote:On December 13 2011 23:50 zidaneshead wrote:On December 13 2011 23:47 HMzK wrote:
Every single nerd crying about this, are just selfish and they are killing esports. Gotta man up. One thumbs down from a swede and TL goes crazy. It is so retarded. Stop being selfish. The match was pointless for NANIWA, HE is what matters in the GSL not US, not FIRST however. SORRY. You're giving us as fans way too little credit. If we weren't around to watch Naniwa play, what value would he as a skilled Starcraft 2 player have? If it wasn't our money paying to watch GOM or MLG, if it wasn't our eyes that were watching these games being played, then where does the money in this sport come from? Advertisers paying for their ads to be watched by no one? Nope. Tournaments being run when no one shows up to watch them? Nope. A video game being created if no one is going to buy them? Nope. We as fans are the backbone of e-sports, so yes, when I pay to watch someone play, I expect those players to give me respect in kind and put on a good match. I don't think you'd enjoy a tournament where the pro players don't have anything to win, especially if they were all upset and not wanting to play; they wouldn't be good matches. It's up to GOM to provide us with entertaining matches. Not the players. They have money to win because WE make sure they have money to win by paying for their product. That money in turn goes to Naniwa's pocket. He gets sponsors, he gets tournament winnings, he gets money just for PARTICIPATING not only because he's good at the game, but because we're there to front the dough and give the game and the players that play them attention. I partly agree that GOM needs to provide a tournament format that doesn't allow for these extra matches to be played, but Naniwa, as a so-called Professional, has an obligation no matter what the format is. Instead of throwing matches, or complaining that a tournament is "a joke" in MLG's case, he should be playing with as much effort as he can. If that leads to a bad match, so be it. Tournaments and the livelihood of E-Sports professional play exists because there are fans, yes, but there would be no tournaments or E-Sports if the players did not get some form (or at least the chance of) compensation for their public matches, because all matches would be bad. I would argue that NaNiWa actually did good, deciding not to play at all instead of playing a bad match. If he asked to forfeit the match beforehand, then it is even more GOM's fault for focing players to play matches they have no motivation to play. I'm not arguing that they don't deserve to be compensated, they do, and that's what we're all trying to do right? Put the money into the sport, for the current players and for future ones? A lot of that money comes from sponsors, but the sponsors don't invest if there aren't fans that passionately follow SC2 and invest their own dollars into the sport itself and the products that respect and support the sport. So yes, at the end of the day, the fan base is the core of any successful sport, or game, or whatever people want to call it. Yes, and the fans don't want to watch bad games, which is what this format promotes. NaNiWa made a statement about that, intentionally or not. Like I said, it's also unfair to the players if some players can advance by playing opponents who won't give it their all because they've already lost (and nearly everyone who has will, whatever they say publicly), while some can't.
Matches that are meaningless for one team and not for the other are sth. unavoidable in the group stages of a tournament. Happens in every mayor sport and it is frowned upon when players throw matches precisely for the reason you mentioned in your post. So in that sense Naniwa showed bad sportsmanship.
While you can blame it on the format, it is kind of pointless because it is inherent to the format itself. There are other options but in the end you will have to form a bracket and if you don't allow for elimination in the group stage, you always have the problem that people can get an easy bracket which again many people perceive as unfair. So it is a matter of taste I guess.
In this specific case with both players being already eliminated from the tournament it would be possible to include a rule that will allow the players to agree on a draw. In any case if a player plays in a broadcasted match, the tournament organizers and the viewers can expect both players to give their best even in those circumstances. At least that is my attitude when I watch sports.
On a personal level I can fully understand that Naniwa threw that game away, but it really lacks professionalism if you think about it and that is what people are rightfully upset about.
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On December 14 2011 00:52 PassiveAce wrote:
This seems so completely blown out of proportion. The idea that he shouldn't be able to participate in the GSL because he throw a game he considered meaningless is mind boggling.
More then any other foreigner in the world, Naniwa has proven that he deserves to be in Korea.
The whole Coca incident kinda showed what the reactions of the Koreans are to this sort of thing. Though nothing was on the line in this case to have consistency he would be punished. It is also still basically match fixing even if there is no betting on the actual match.
One of the attitudes that seems to come across from the Koreans and not from the foreigners is that playing at that level and being in that competition is a privilege not a right. Quite a few of the tweets and the editorial reflected this. So i don't think they would say he deserves to be in Korea.
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EPT
