EPTPatch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 405
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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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darklight54321
United States361 Posts
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kongchar
1 Post
User was banned for this post. | ||
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Cone
United States5 Posts
On September 13 2011 07:46 kongchar wrote: I play random. Zerg needs infestors in zvp. I'm master's. They need it. Any Toss who isn't pro can suck my dick. Blizzard can suck my dick also. it's not like they removed infestors. the problem with np was when the zerg would get broodlords, or a lot of broodlords. sure there's usually a problem if the game gets that far, but in some top korean games the game actually legitimately reaches that point sometimes when both players play near perfect. there just really isn't a great composition that deals with a broodlord infestor army, protoss needs a lor of collossi or archons to burn through broodlings effective enough to face this, if these units are attacking their own units it turns into a slaughter and the game is hinged upon somehow getting feedbacks off with templar leading the army which isn't a great strategy with broodlords out. np is 9 range and broods are 9.5 and then there's usually a big buffer of lings or roaches. | ||
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Saltydizzle
United States123 Posts
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Crysack
Australia94 Posts
On September 13 2011 06:35 MrDudeMan wrote: you have scans and observers. Theres no reason for you to be gaining vision with your spell casters, you should already have superior vision to the zerg player. Even if they have overseers, zerg has no anti air (other then fg) when going infestors so it should not really matter. EMP's and feedbacks should always go off before the engagement, as that is when it will make the difference. Vision isn't the problem, speed and range are the problems - for HTs that is. Not only are infestors faster and more durable - they also have a superior range on FG to the HT's FB - making it rather difficult to feedback against an equally skilled zerg palyer (same deal with ghosts). I'm not sure I understand the speed prism suggestions since a) the tech is in the opposite direction to HT tech and b) why would you bother flying a speed prism near the zerg army to be fungaled - losing you multiple HTs at once? | ||
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
On September 13 2011 08:23 Saltydizzle wrote: I do feel the need to post my rant. I have slowly noticed that infestors are getting screwed from the last patch. This is truly ridiculous, WHERE IS THE ZURG BUFFS? Where is the energy reduction for fucking over NP, where is the FG increase because of NP, NP WAS FOR MASSIVE UNITS IF YOUR OPPONENT WAS FOOLISH ENOUGH TO USE THEM. Ridiculous.... I have been getting very frustrated with SCII, and this tops the cake. I'm done SC, GG, Sorry for all you zurg players. SC was fun until now. Well you already bought sc2, is not like you are on monthly subscription, or some top Zerg players. I don't really understand your rage here? The patch is not even being implemented. Zerg will still have a chance to win GSL like every other season. Don't really understand the balance whine. Even if it is implemented, we should be glad we all contributed to the sc2 community by playing at game that is NOT YET perfectly balance. Too many people are concern about their ladder standing. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On September 13 2011 06:07 Datum wrote: This doesn't work. Keeping HT's and ghosts at the front of an army will enable them to be sniped very quickly. And then the player is screwed. I guess you've never watched GM-level players use Ghosts and High Templar before? Because that is exactly what they do and yes it does work. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Also, the only way that you could not see infestors win anyone games at the code S level would be to not watch the GSL. You realize that every single game where Zerg opened infestors in the last 2 seasons, they lost right? It's amazing how much Protoss QQ about infestors, but in reality they aren't a problem at all at the top level. Protoss are getting owned by Zerg grabbing a fast third against their greedy FFE, not because of infestors. They are also losing by opening DT/SG and Zerg grabbing a third in spite of it, and the DT/SG doing zero damage. Protoss have been playing extremely risky and greedy, now that Zerg is punishing it, they are crying about... infestors, a unit that is never made in these situations? No one in the GSL has won with infestors yet. Zergs have been winning, however, by taking super fast thirds against greedy FFE protoss and holding them, and then having an overwhelming macro advantage with 4 bases vs 2. it's not like they removed infestors. the problem with np was when the zerg would get broodlords, or a lot of broodlords. sure there's usually a problem if the game gets that far, but in some top korean games the game actually legitimately reaches that point sometimes when both players play near perfect. there just really isn't a great composition that deals with a broodlord infestor army, protoss needs a lor of collossi or archons to burn through broodlings effective enough to face this, if these units are attacking their own units it turns into a slaughter and the game is hinged upon somehow getting feedbacks off with templar leading the army which isn't a great strategy with broodlords out. np is 9 range and broods are 9.5 and then there's usually a big buffer of lings or roaches. VR/Colossus/HT stomps such compositions. With micro Colossi snipe all infestors, and if Zerg tries to NP, a few spread HT FB them. 20 infestors is amazing against Protoss, but 10 infestors because the rest got feedbacked is worthless. It's extremely unforgiving, you need 1.5x infestors at least vs colossi or suddenly everything dies. Not only are infestors faster and more durable - they also have a superior range on FG to the HT's FB - making it rather difficult to feedback against an equally skilled zerg palyer (same deal with ghosts). They are not more durable, at all. They get 2 shotted by Colossi, immortals, and 1 shotted by FB. Both units take 2 FG to kill. And it's not 'superior' range, that's an exaggeration, it's 1/2 a range, and that's wasting a lot of energy to perfectly FG something, when you should be FG'ing the army and NP'ing things. It's so annoying when lower level players complain about FG > FB, but in reality Protoss will always FB at least a good number of infestors. If you have no colossi or sentries in your army, then Zerg can back off and use roaches, but a stalker/colossi/HT or VR/Colossi/HT army is just impossible for Zerg to deal with. With the superior range of Colossi, you either need to get close to FG and risk getting FB'd and killed by Colossi micro, or not use your infestors at all. As a Masters Zerg, I have yet to have a game where Protoss does not get FB on at least some of my infestors in a game when he gets HT unless I keep the infestors out of the battle. And contrary to what every single Protoss believes, 3 infestors > entire Protoss army. There's a reason Zerg makes 10+ infestors, it's to directly counter what Protoss is doing. If I make 10 more infestors, and Zerg is going heavier on HT or chargelots, then I'll be screwed. Protoss units take a lot of FG to kill, and it has to be chained, so unless I'm already winning the game by having a huge macro lead, I can't afford to just lose infestors after every engagement, which is what happens when Colossi or HT are present. It's like when Terran makes ghosts against a Protoss army with colossi. Sure, EMP is nice, but they will lose ghosts every time they try to EMP and eventually lose unless they get enough vikings. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
it's so annoying when lower level players complain about FG > FB As a Masters Zerg, I have yet to have a game where Protoss does not get FB on at least some of my infestors in a game when he gets HT unless I keep the infestors out of the battle. this this this I hate how people keep saying "durr but since fungal is an area spell it has *slightly* more range than FB so HT always just die before they can do anything!" No, that doesn't happen. That's never happened to you and you are throwing out a hypothetically possible scenario that basically never happens as an excuse to not build HT when in reality you probably just aren't good at using HT and don't want to learn how to use them. Again, as a Masters Zerg player I have never fought HT with Infestors and not had at least a decent chunk of them get killed with FB. | ||
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Censured
Czech Republic1059 Posts
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
On September 13 2011 08:23 Saltydizzle wrote: I do feel the need to post my rant. I have slowly noticed that infestors are getting screwed from the last patch. This is truly ridiculous, WHERE IS THE ZURG BUFFS? Where is the energy reduction for fucking over NP, where is the FG increase because of NP, NP WAS FOR MASSIVE UNITS IF YOUR OPPONENT WAS FOOLISH ENOUGH TO USE THEM. Ridiculous.... I have been getting very frustrated with SCII, and this tops the cake. I'm done SC, GG, Sorry for all you zurg players. SC was fun until now. Ultralisk eat stalkers and Colossus alive so they buff them faster building time. FG was too strong and infestor is the only unit in the game that can kill ANYTHING in the game. From air to ground, from small to big group, stealing other opponent's units, destroy expo and building, harass mineral line. What else do you want? It's a perfect unit and the only thing you can say about a perfect unit is overpowered Stop the fucking rant and whining ffs. Oh and you can quit the game if you want, who cares? Less qq, better community. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On September 13 2011 09:10 Belial88 wrote: You realize that every single game where Zerg opened infestors in the last 2 seasons, they lost right? It's amazing how much Protoss QQ about infestors, but in reality they aren't a problem at all at the top level. Protoss are getting owned by Zerg grabbing a fast third against their greedy FFE, not because of infestors. They are also losing by opening DT/SG and Zerg grabbing a third in spite of it, and the DT/SG doing zero damage. Protoss have been playing extremely risky and greedy, now that Zerg is punishing it, they are crying about... infestors, a unit that is never made in these situations? No one in the GSL has won with infestors yet. Zergs have been winning, however, by taking super fast thirds against greedy FFE protoss and holding them, and then having an overwhelming macro advantage with 4 bases vs 2. I don't want to comment on whether infestors need nerf or not, but your logic is flawed. Just because you rarely actually see infestors decide games in the GSL does not mean that they do not affect the metagame. Infestors may be a major factor why protoss players play "extremely risky and greedy", because the mid- and lategame parts are extremely difficult if you play conservatively and allow the zerg to get a good number of infestors. The protoss deathball is not nearly as invincible as it was a few GSL's ago before the infestor changes, I think everyone can agree on this. A lot of thinking goes into these matches "behind the scenes", especially in the GSL where you can prepare for your matches well in advance. You cannot draw conclusions from the few games on the big stage alone, you need to discuss the situation with the pros themselves and watch how their practice games evolve their strategies to get a good idea whats balanced and what isnt. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On September 13 2011 08:23 Saltydizzle wrote: NP WAS FOR MASSIVE UNITS IF YOUR OPPONENT WAS FOOLISH ENOUGH TO USE THEM. this is EXACTLY why NP needed to be nerfed. I didn't quote the complete sentence, but what I did quote stands alone | ||
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
On September 13 2011 09:44 Jayrod wrote: this is EXACTLY why NP needed to be nerfed. I didn't quote the complete sentence, but what I did quote stands alone Just ignore him. Why protoss should make Massive units anyway? I mean those are the best guns and Protoss can't rely on HTs too much. Where's all the fun of using carriers and mothership? | ||
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hasuterrans
United States614 Posts
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Drium
United States888 Posts
Protoss were using void rays instead of colossi. Blizzard removed void ray speed entirely. Not even a nerf, just straight up removed from the game. They also reduced void ray range and damage. Then protoss were using templar instead of colossi. Yet another protoss upgrade was entirely eliminated from the game. Then protoss started using upgraded gateway units with templar added later in the game even though they didn't have an energy upgrade. Now Blizzard is taking a slightly different approach, buffing the other robo units to make it a more attractive tech path and nerfing the counters to colossi. I guess they can't justify more nerfs when protoss is at 45% win rate. + Show Spoiler + Oh and now the infestor only counters almost all the units in the game instead of actually all of them. QQ moar plz. | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
If this goes through, I will literally kill myself and resort to 2 or 3 base all ins | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
Horrible change, you can just remove this ability and replace it with something new, couse at this point it wont be worth to even research. | ||
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Bonham
Canada655 Posts
On September 13 2011 10:05 Glon wrote: If this goes through, I will literally kill myself and resort to 2 or 3 base all ins Even an all-in is kind of hard to do when dead, no? | ||
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