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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 13 2011 16:31 Belial88 wrote:
^ Idra still does it. What do you think it will go to? I guess baneling rain right, but apparently the new patch is going to prevent zerg from doing that (if you don't know, there's a ninja nerf where you can't drop units out of a moving transport like you could before and in BW).
This was proven to be incorrect. The person who created that threat dud not fact check or test.
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On September 12 2011 13:16 Mojar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) ![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/dps788o.png) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades) Unfortunately for you this is irrelevant as you don't take into account unit size. A zerg army is much smaller in unit size compared to a protoss army and therefore a higher density of units are affected in the smaller space of a storm then a fungal area.
I'm not going to speak about PvZ, but in TvZ this is VERY relevant. The bio part of the army has the same model size as zerg army (marines<->lings, marauders<->roaches) so it is very disturbing that getting fungaled is essentaily the same as eating a full storm.
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On September 13 2011 20:36 SifySify wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 13:16 Mojar wrote:On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades) Unfortunately for you this is irrelevant as you don't take into account unit size. A zerg army is much smaller in unit size compared to a protoss army and therefore a higher density of units are affected in the smaller space of a storm then a fungal area. I'm not going to speak about PvZ, but in TvZ this is VERY relevant. The bio part of the army has the same model size as zerg army (marines<->lings, marauders<->roaches) so it is very disturbing that getting fungaled is essentaily the same as eating a full storm.
Getting fungaled is indeed bad news for bio, but on the other hand you can use more powerful units like tanks against Zerg. These damage comparisons between spells aren't that meaningful and Terran is not in a bad spot in TvZ.
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On September 13 2011 19:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 16:31 Belial88 wrote:
^ Idra still does it. What do you think it will go to? I guess baneling rain right, but apparently the new patch is going to prevent zerg from doing that (if you don't know, there's a ninja nerf where you can't drop units out of a moving transport like you could before and in BW). This was proven to be incorrect. The person who created that threat dud not fact check or test.
Ah Belial88 again.
Much of what you are saying is misinformation, yet again. I took the time to see if you really knew what you were talking about, considering your sweeping comments.
I remember you saying you just reached rank 1 masters.
Is this you? http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1584798/Belial
You don't look like a rank 1 Masters player to me. In addition - you have mentioned that you reached Masters with Random before switching to Zerg. It appears you just got promoted to Masters on 9/7/11 as Zerg. This is less than a week ago. In addition, you are listed as a Diamond-level Player last season, as Zerg.
You mention being Masters Random as well, though I have seen you post elsewhere that you have no knowledge of PvT and don't know if 1-1-1 is imbalanced. You do not sound like someone who is a Masters Random player. All your posts indicate you are 100% Zerg Player who recently got promoted to Masters.
Do you mind presenting a link to your random Master's Random Account?
I am genuinely worried that you are simply lying at this point.
If you are not a random Masters player, then please do not preface your posts with "I play Random at Masters level, so I know a thing or two..." when you're a freshly promoted Diamond Zerg.
And yes, Baneling drops still works.
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In defending the Baneling Drops change.
The possibility of being able to kill at least 15 probes pr scvs on the opponents saturated mineral line with a flying units that instantaneously was wrong. Whereby the unit passes the opponent's base (the overlord) gave the opponent about 3-7 seconds to prevent the great loss
This Not just bad because of it being so dangerous, but because of the fact that the other races dont have an ability which would do as much damage in that small of a time frame. Now if we take into consideration that making workers with other two races takes longer compared to zerg, than we can safely conclude that this ability would give anyone stating that Starcraft 2 has balance issues a strong point to back up their claim.
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I stopped playing as random before 1-1-1, so I don't discuss pvt. Was rank 1 master, now playing on PTR. When promoted, I had been playing random (listed as Zerg for season before). So never fear QTIP, because god forbid you ever address my arguments rather than focus on the person saying it.
Glad to know baneling drops still work then. It's not me spreading misinformation, it's me spreading something that was all over reddit and the forums, and was 'confirmed' until just ago.
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lol so now, BC/Raven will basically almost counter anything zerg can really do. PDD counters all zerg air/hydras. BCs with 3/3 upgrades is just lawl. And a good wall with some siege tanks on the high ground and PFs will shut down a lot of zerg counterattacks.
Of course, Zergs can NP the ravens, but PDD runs out incredibly fast with BC's fast attack, HSM will do almost nothing because BCS have 550 HP unless the zerg NPs like 5 Ravens with 125+ energy and and quickly HSMs before the BCs kill the infestors.
And yamato outranges FG, and I believe once charged, it will still follow the target even after it has gone out of range?
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On September 14 2011 04:48 Belial88 wrote:
I stopped playing as random before 1-1-1, so I don't discuss pvt. Was rank 1 master, now playing on PTR. When promoted, I had been playing random (listed as Zerg for season before). So never fear QTIP, because god forbid you ever address my arguments rather than focus on the person saying it.
Glad to know baneling drops still work then. It's not me spreading misinformation, it's me spreading something that was all over reddit and the forums, and was 'confirmed' until just ago.
Well if you were master 1v1 rank 1 just send a link and prove him wrong instead of just saying you were rank 1 lol.
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On September 14 2011 04:48 Belial88 wrote:
I stopped playing as random before 1-1-1, so I don't discuss pvt. Was rank 1 master, now playing on PTR. When promoted, I had been playing random (listed as Zerg for season before). So never fear QTIP, because god forbid you ever address my arguments rather than focus on the person saying it.
Glad to know baneling drops still work then. It's not me spreading misinformation, it's me spreading something that was all over reddit and the forums, and was 'confirmed' until just ago.
It was never "confirmed" it was just 90% of the people reading only the threadtitle and then feeling like they have to drop down their opinion. Not even the OP tested it himself, and after competent people, like Zelniq did the testing and posted that it was all nonsense, it got quickly buried by fresh QQ.
One of the saddest threads in recent TL-history.
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Holy shit batman, I haven seen this much crying since David Cruz.
I'm shocked this thread has survived this long. Blizzard is changing shit...get over it.
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On September 14 2011 04:56 Zuxo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 04:48 Belial88 wrote:
I stopped playing as random before 1-1-1, so I don't discuss pvt. Was rank 1 master, now playing on PTR. When promoted, I had been playing random (listed as Zerg for season before). So never fear QTIP, because god forbid you ever address my arguments rather than focus on the person saying it.
Glad to know baneling drops still work then. It's not me spreading misinformation, it's me spreading something that was all over reddit and the forums, and was 'confirmed' until just ago. Well if you were master 1v1 rank 1 just send a link and prove him wrong instead of just saying you were rank 1 lol.
He already has the link. He's just ignoring it.
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Doesnt anyone see the real travesty in this patch?
Really NO one??
Contaminate up 50 Energy!!
All my refined strategies in shambles. I'll never recover from this.
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You know, I really disagree with some of the overseer changes.
I understand the reasoning behind increasing contaminate cost, but that's assuming that it was a useful ability to begin with. Contaminate is rarely used, and when it is, it is never game changing. Shouldn't it be buffed, much like the warp prism or the infestor, to encourage more usage of contaminate? I suppose lowering overseer cost would in a way buff it, but without changing the energy cost, all it would is essentially make contaminate be used 2x as much (if at all). Would that be a bad thing? And would it be a bad thing if the Destiny Everlast Retardation of Production build was made possibly viable?
I'd rather the overlord speed upgrade cost be reduced rather than the overseer cost. I think it would be more interesting - DTs and banshees would still be as viable (rather than less due to this change), but it would be the same buff basically to zerg scouting. And, you know, you wouldn't have to tinker and possibly break the game due to contaminate!
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I'm still greatly amused by the fact that there are 20 Terrans in Code S, and yet Blizzard is dropping these huge nerfs on the Infestor, while delicately patting Terran on the head with the 5 second Rax build time change. I don't necessarily like Infestors, but they're not nearly as ridiculous and damaging to the game as the 1/1/1.
From a Protoss perspective, Ghosts are still much worse than Infestors. It's just that you have a decent chance of going into the midgame on even terms against a Terran, while being perpetually behind a Zerg. So the Zerg stuff seems more powerful, when it's just them having a huge econ lead.
Now, I wouldn't mind making the Infestor less of a swiss army knife somewhere along the line, but there are way more pressing issues in the game at the moment, which the patch doesn't address at all. Protosses are still going to get rolled in Code S if the patch goes through this way.
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To everyone complaining about the infestor nerf, most namely NP, I have finally found a useful argument for the change. Neural Parasite costs 100 energy, and it doesn't make the infestor lose energy. The infestor has a max of 200 energy, so unless the infestor doing the neural parasite has max energy, it wont die to a feedback. This means it will still keep the unit it is using neural parasite on. I still think that the nerf is too much, but it finally makes sense to me. This also counters any arguments that feedback denies any infestor play at all.
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templar was nerfed(KA) when ghosts were not used often.
ghosts are now abundant with their cost change.
why is templar still the same?
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On September 14 2011 06:05 jinorazi wrote:
templar was nerfed(KA) when ghosts were not used often.
ghosts are now abundant with their cost change.
why is templar still the same?
Ghosts wouldnt change what KA gave which was warp in defence which can cripple an army and warp in Storm which can almost obliterate an SCV line.
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On September 13 2011 11:18 viralintruder wrote:
So if this goes through (which it is probably going to) we can expect to see:
-More manner Motherships late game cloaking those colossi to laugh at zergs which can't counter both of them without NP or deal enough damage to warrant losing their infestors everytime they FG. Corrupter > Mothership + Colossi. Anti-air units > Corrupter.
-More mass Thors and Thor/repair mid-game pushes versus Z (even though blizzard specifically stated they do not enjoy seeing mass Thors in any match-up).
-Less effective (slightly) Baneling drops to counter P armies.
-Wild turtled terran tech switches to Battlecruisers if the terran can afford it (what is the zerg going to do about it? Marines>Corrupters and Battlecruisers>Zerg).
-More Ultralisk carcasses in a shorter period.
-More direct Warp Prism harass since they're tankier and can withstand a few more Queen attacks.
-More zergs turning to Roachesfor viable armies to fill the void nerfed Infestors created, which leads to more buffed immortals being produced.
-A very small increase in the only ability of the most useless unit in the game (overseer).
-(This is a Z buff) 6pool w/ all drones all ins may be slightly more effective as the drone attacks (which were previously inferior to the other workers) has now been fixed.
I think overall the blizzard team is just throwing out the stupidest-est as fuck ideas and people are trying to rationalize how intelligent they are by using backwards logic. Blizzard isn't taking balance advice from professionals. Blizzard isn't taking suggestions from their player base. Blizzard is making the game easier, less fun, less exciting, more forgiving to terran and protoss, removing the ability for zerg to control what terran or protoss decide to tech to, and removing the power of zerg mid to late game. This isn't a balance whine, it's all true (or going to be true).
But hey, nerf one race into the ground, at least 2/3 (actually, it's more than 2/3) of the game's players will be more than happy to herp-derp into ridiculous wins against equally skilled or better players.
Wow, you're so amazing with all that QQ.
Mothership, colossus, anti-air....wow really Protoss can afford that much(Not to mention that Toss can have that big of a army cuz mothership and colossi cost too much supplies) ??? How about mass FG then?? Problem solve right? They have to clump up under mothership to be cloaked, so just keep FG. It could reveal cloak too.
Mass Thor and repair?? What are you talking about? How could Protoss stop this build after the SCV repair fix and not Zerg??? Who would send half of his SCV and doing thing like that in mid game ffs....
-Baneling drop still the same.
- Marines>corruptors ? Oh, how about FG marines, or make banelings then? W/o marines now you can make hydras or corruptors easily right? Problem solve.
-Ultralisk switching between them and BL is pretty good combo, if you wanna cry like IdrA, I recommend go read his thought on this.
-Warprism should be a lil bit tankier. A few more shots is good for it, cuz it's expensive, and it's also encourage Toss to harass more and protect HTs more. Nothing wrong with that.
-Zerg qq about no good scouting option, so blizz buff overseer. What else do you want??? how about drop 1 roach in his base and burrow to scout.
-The drones patch is fixing the bug, how could drone has more advantage than Toss and Terran in this "6 pools" case?
All those changes help the game more interesting. May be it's time for you to learn new strat and counter then.
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On September 14 2011 05:57 Belial88 wrote:
You know, I really disagree with some of the overseer changes.
I understand the reasoning behind increasing contaminate cost, but that's assuming that it was a useful ability to begin with. Contaminate is rarely used, and when it is, it is never game changing. Shouldn't it be buffed, much like the warp prism or the infestor, to encourage more usage of contaminate? I suppose lowering overseer cost would in a way buff it, but without changing the energy cost, all it would is essentially make contaminate be used 2x as much (if at all). Would that be a bad thing? And would it be a bad thing if the Destiny Everlast Retardation of Production build was made possibly viable?
I'd rather the overlord speed upgrade cost be reduced rather than the overseer cost. I think it would be more interesting - DTs and banshees would still be as viable (rather than less due to this change), but it would be the same buff basically to zerg scouting. And, you know, you wouldn't have to tinker and possibly break the game due to contaminate!
Contaminate may rarely be used now, but that's not the relevant question. The relevant question is whether it'd be overused if the Overseer costs 50 gas, and whether that would be game-changing.
Increasing energy as it was done arleady /does/ encourage more usage of contaminate, the energy cost is less than doubled, but the gas cost was halved (and the mineral cost is hardly limiting at this point).
And yes, making it viable to goop up production/tech buildings indefinitely for half the cost of what it is now could be a bad thing. I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to abuse this in ZvZ if you have a faster lair -- you can delay the opponent's lair/infestors for ages with little risk, since standard ZvZ doesn't give you a lot of AA that is capable of taking down overseers before they contaminate a hatchery and flee.
And overlord speed upgrade cost reductions would not be the same buff at all. They would be a much stronger buff to scouting, since overlords cost no gas, while overseers still do, and it wouldn't help at all against DT/banshee, which I'd guess was the goal of this change.
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Yes, to me it's just wrong the amount of terran players that are almost always high on each tourny that I follow.
I mean that's gotta at least show something.
We can't just sit back, close our eyes and try to prove to our selves that its all skill..
Cuz I dont know about you guys.. byt that doesn't make any sense to me
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EPT
