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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 13 2011 10:00 Drium wrote:Looks like more of Blizzard trying to push protoss to do nothing but make the most boring unit in the game =/ Protoss were using void rays instead of colossi. Blizzard removed void ray speed entirely. Not even a nerf, just straight up removed from the game. They also reduced void ray range and damage. Then protoss were using templar instead of colossi. Yet another protoss upgrade was entirely eliminated from the game. Then protoss started using upgraded gateway units with templar added later in the game even though they didn't have an energy upgrade. Now Blizzard is taking a slightly different approach, buffing the other robo units to make it a more attractive tech path and nerfing the counters to colossi. I guess they can't justify more nerfs when protoss is at 45% win rate. + Show Spoiler +Oh and now the infestor only counters almost all the units in the game instead of actually all of them. QQ moar plz.
This pretty much sums it up. Infestors are still the best unit in the game even after they lose NP. FG does almost the same dps as storm (NOTE i said DPS not damage total). Don't even have to get into how stupid ITs are. Zergs are QQing so much...acting like they took away corruptors or something (THE HARD COUNTER TO COLOSSI)
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Does anyone have the pvz matchup statistics pre and post infestor buff? That would be an extremely useful stat.
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funny how people think NP is needed to counter colossus, hint hint fungal roots colossus in place then the zerg just needs to a-move roaches/bamerings/anything to kill the pony/cololsus shitball, dont think people realize how much worse protoss units are at directly fighting other units
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On September 13 2011 09:48 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 09:44 Jayrod wrote:On September 13 2011 08:23 Saltydizzle wrote:
NP WAS FOR MASSIVE UNITS IF YOUR OPPONENT WAS FOOLISH ENOUGH TO USE THEM. this is EXACTLY why NP needed to be nerfed. I didn't quote the complete sentence, but what I did quote stands alone Just ignore him. Why protoss should make Massive units anyway? I mean those are the best guns and Protoss can't rely on HTs too much. Where's all the fun of using carriers and mothership?
Probably explains why
http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/2702593/Saltydizzle
User was warned for this post
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With this NP nerf we can now see a more and more late game battles with not just MMM ball.
Because Thors are now viable, because BC are now viable. Don't you all understand this?
It is significant and very needed change, just wait 3-4 weeks after patch released, and you'll see how more entertaining all *vZ match-ups will eventually be.
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So if this goes through (which it is probably going to) we can expect to see:
-More manner Motherships late game cloaking those colossi to laugh at zergs which can't counter both of them without NP or deal enough damage to warrant losing their infestors everytime they FG. Corrupter > Mothership + Colossi. Anti-air units > Corrupter.
-More mass Thors and Thor/repair mid-game pushes versus Z (even though blizzard specifically stated they do not enjoy seeing mass Thors in any match-up).
-Less effective (slightly) Baneling drops to counter P armies.
-Wild turtled terran tech switches to Battlecruisers if the terran can afford it (what is the zerg going to do about it? Marines>Corrupters and Battlecruisers>Zerg).
-More Ultralisk carcasses in a shorter period.
-More direct Warp Prism harass since they're tankier and can withstand a few more Queen attacks.
-More zergs turning to Roachesfor viable armies to fill the void nerfed Infestors created, which leads to more buffed immortals being produced.
-A very small increase in the only ability of the most useless unit in the game (overseer).
-(This is a Z buff) 6pool w/ all drones all ins may be slightly more effective as the drone attacks (which were previously inferior to the other workers) has now been fixed.
I think overall the blizzard team is just throwing out the stupidest-est as fuck ideas and people are trying to rationalize how intelligent they are by using backwards logic. Blizzard isn't taking balance advice from professionals. Blizzard isn't taking suggestions from their player base. Blizzard is making the game easier, less fun, less exciting, more forgiving to terran and protoss, removing the ability for zerg to control what terran or protoss decide to tech to, and removing the power of zerg mid to late game. This isn't a balance whine, it's all true (or going to be true).
But hey, nerf one race into the ground, at least 2/3 (actually, it's more than 2/3) of the game's players will be more than happy to herp-derp into ridiculous wins against equally skilled or better players.
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On September 13 2011 11:18 viralintruder wrote:
So if this goes through (which it is probably going to) we can expect to see:
-More manner Motherships late game cloaking those colossi to laugh at zergs which can't counter both of them without NP or deal enough damage to warrant losing their infestors everytime they FG. Corrupter > Mothership + Colossi. Anti-air units > Corrupter.
-More mass Thors and Thor/repair mid-game pushes versus Z (even though blizzard specifically stated they do not enjoy seeing mass Thors in any match-up).
-Less effective (slightly) Baneling drops to counter P armies.
-Wild turtled terran tech switches to Battlecruisers if the terran can afford it (what is the zerg going to do about it? Marines>Corrupters and Battlecruisers>Zerg).
-More Ultralisk carcasses in a shorter period.
-More direct Warp Prism harass since they're tankier and can withstand a few more Queen attacks.
-More zergs turning to Roachesfor viable armies to fill the void nerfed Infestors created, which leads to more buffed immortals being produced.
-A very small increase in the only ability of the most useless unit in the game (overseer).
-(This is a Z buff) 6pool w/ all drones all ins may be slightly more effective as the drone attacks (which were previously inferior to the other workers) has now been fixed.
I think overall the blizzard team is just throwing out the stupidest-est as fuck ideas and people are trying to rationalize how intelligent they are by using backwards logic. Blizzard isn't taking balance advice from professionals. Blizzard isn't taking suggestions from their player base. Blizzard is making the game easier, less fun, less exciting, more forgiving to terran and protoss, removing the ability for zerg to control what terran or protoss decide to tech to, and removing the power of zerg mid to late game. This isn't a balance whine, it's all true (or going to be true).
But hey, nerf one race into the ground, at least 2/3 (actually, it's more than 2/3) of the game's players will be more than happy to herp-derp into ridiculous wins against equally skilled or better players.
jesus, can you say wall of derp
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 13 2011 10:19 SC2Joker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 10:00 Drium wrote:Looks like more of Blizzard trying to push protoss to do nothing but make the most boring unit in the game =/ Protoss were using void rays instead of colossi. Blizzard removed void ray speed entirely. Not even a nerf, just straight up removed from the game. They also reduced void ray range and damage. Then protoss were using templar instead of colossi. Yet another protoss upgrade was entirely eliminated from the game. Then protoss started using upgraded gateway units with templar added later in the game even though they didn't have an energy upgrade. Now Blizzard is taking a slightly different approach, buffing the other robo units to make it a more attractive tech path and nerfing the counters to colossi. I guess they can't justify more nerfs when protoss is at 45% win rate. + Show Spoiler +Oh and now the infestor only counters almost all the units in the game instead of actually all of them. QQ moar plz. This pretty much sums it up. Infestors are still the best unit in the game even after they lose NP. FG does almost the same dps as storm (NOTE i said DPS not damage total). Don't even have to get into how stupid ITs are. Zergs are QQing so much...acting like they took away corruptors or something (THE HARD COUNTER TO COLOSSI)
Right because corruptors have so much use after the colossi go down. If infestors are so incredible why is terran so dominant?
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On September 13 2011 11:22 Bamerings Tasteress wrote:
jesus, can you say wall of derp
If you're going to disagree, voice your disagreement. Where is the derp?
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On September 13 2011 10:19 SC2Joker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 10:00 Drium wrote:Looks like more of Blizzard trying to push protoss to do nothing but make the most boring unit in the game =/ Protoss were using void rays instead of colossi. Blizzard removed void ray speed entirely. Not even a nerf, just straight up removed from the game. They also reduced void ray range and damage. Then protoss were using templar instead of colossi. Yet another protoss upgrade was entirely eliminated from the game. Then protoss started using upgraded gateway units with templar added later in the game even though they didn't have an energy upgrade. Now Blizzard is taking a slightly different approach, buffing the other robo units to make it a more attractive tech path and nerfing the counters to colossi. I guess they can't justify more nerfs when protoss is at 45% win rate. + Show Spoiler +Oh and now the infestor only counters almost all the units in the game instead of actually all of them. QQ moar plz. This pretty much sums it up. Infestors are still the best unit in the game even after they lose NP. FG does almost the same dps as storm (NOTE i said DPS not damage total). Don't even have to get into how stupid ITs are. Zergs are QQing so much...acting like they took away corruptors or something (THE HARD COUNTER TO COLOSSI)
LOL If Blizzard removed corruptors, every other race would QQ about how BL are even faster to tech to, rather than Zergs who would not miss at all a crappy excuse for AA.
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On September 13 2011 09:40 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 09:10 Belial88 wrote:Also, the only way that you could not see infestors win anyone games at the code S level would be to not watch the GSL. You realize that every single game where Zerg opened infestors in the last 2 seasons, they lost right? It's amazing how much Protoss QQ about infestors, but in reality they aren't a problem at all at the top level. Protoss are getting owned by Zerg grabbing a fast third against their greedy FFE, not because of infestors. They are also losing by opening DT/SG and Zerg grabbing a third in spite of it, and the DT/SG doing zero damage. Protoss have been playing extremely risky and greedy, now that Zerg is punishing it, they are crying about... infestors, a unit that is never made in these situations? No one in the GSL has won with infestors yet. Zergs have been winning, however, by taking super fast thirds against greedy FFE protoss and holding them, and then having an overwhelming macro advantage with 4 bases vs 2. I don't want to comment on whether infestors need nerf or not, but your logic is flawed. Just because you rarely actually see infestors decide games in the GSL does not mean that they do not affect the metagame. Infestors may be a major factor why protoss players play "extremely risky and greedy", because the mid- and lategame parts are extremely difficult if you play conservatively and allow the zerg to get a good number of infestors. The protoss deathball is not nearly as invincible as it was a few GSL's ago before the infestor changes, I think everyone can agree on this. A lot of thinking goes into these matches "behind the scenes", especially in the GSL where you can prepare for your matches well in advance. You cannot draw conclusions from the few games on the big stage alone, you need to discuss the situation with the pros themselves and watch how their practice games evolve their strategies to get a good idea whats balanced and what isnt.
I wasn't saying infestors were balanced or not based on the merit that they always lost in the GSL. I was only responding and calling out the quoted poster for being a bullshitter, by pointing out that no, infestors have actually lost games at the Code S level in the GSL.
The idea that Protoss has been all-inning and playing super risky because they are scared of infestors as imbalanced is a bit ridiculous though. Many Zerg's have shown they prefer baneling drops instead of infestors, or don't use infestors in ZvP (nestea, losira, kryix, check, idra, darkforce, etc). It's not like Protoss don't have a single unit that instantly not only counters infestors, but makes them damn near worthless immediately.
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I don't see the Zerg nerfs staying without some kind of Ghost/Protoss deathball nerf.
Especially the NP one
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When does the patch go "live", instead of the public test region state its in now? I really hope they don't do the rax build time nerf cause it will mess up all the timings, plus the NP nerf is just retarded because.
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All the zerg nerfs are actually good for the game. I'm actually happy for the patch and hope all the zerg changes go through.
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On September 13 2011 02:39 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 02:07 Perfect wrote:
The meta game is about to change heavily from this patch, i look forward to seeing the next stage of pro builds. no dude lol. we already saw what people did when NP and heavy infestor usage wasn't the norm. its going to go back to caveman style roach/hydra/corrupter and roach/ling allins. yay such skillful, entertaining gameplay.
I'm willing to take a bet of any amount that the ZvP won't go back to roach/hydra/corruptors
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^ Idra still does it. What do you think it will go to? I guess baneling rain right, but apparently the new patch is going to prevent zerg from doing that (if you don't know, there's a ninja nerf where you can't drop units out of a moving transport like you could before and in BW).
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Here is the ninja nerf to drops out of moving transport as I see it in the PTR Notes
"# Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location."
Does this have to do with baneling drops in mineral lines where you shift queue ovies to the natural and main? Does this have to do with the fog of war? what dense area? High unit density?
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On September 13 2011 16:44 GhoSt[shield] wrote:
Here is the ninja nerf to drops out of moving transport as I see it in the PTR Notes
"# Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location."
Does this have to do with baneling drops in mineral lines where you shift queue ovies to the natural and main? Does this have to do with the fog of war? what dense area? High unit density?
AFAIK it won't be a nerf at all. Even at the moment, if the enemy unit density is too high you can't drop (which shows how high it needs to be to prevent drops). This was only listed as a bug change because the unit-density drop-block was by-passed by dropping when the units being dropped ontop of were in the FoW.
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Does this have to do with baneling drops in mineral lines where you shift queue ovies to the natural and main? Does this have to do with the fog of war? what dense area? High unit density?
I imagine it's so you can't just send a dropship through fog to someone's base to auto drop while you micro a battle, you have to at least pay attention to both, and micro both, you can't just micro as bad as the opponent who doesn't respond to the drop.
AFAIK it won't be a nerf at all. Even at the moment, if the enemy unit density is too high you can't drop (which shows how high it needs to be to prevent drops). This was only listed as a bug change because the unit-density drop-block was by-passed by dropping when the units being dropped ontop of were in the FoW.
Huh? You can still drop banelings if the unit density is high, and you can still drop units regardless of unit density if the transport is moving. This bug change makes it so you can't drop onto armies.
This was only listed as a bug change because the unit-density drop-block was by-passed by dropping when the units being dropped ontop of were in the FoW.
No one does this? Because your transports will get completely decimated by whatever units are under it. You could drop units on top of armies if the transport was moving, like baneling bombs. There was never any bug that I recall of, or any situation where people would fly medivacs over a stalker army or over a bunch of lings and banes and not be able to suicide their units, so that they would do it through FOW.
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I just realized that battlecruisers will now be a viable alternative to go against zergs, and I'm all up for adding additional units to the TvZ matchup.
Also, I honestly feel that the baneling bomb thing is a bug and it'll eventually get sorted out.
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EPT
