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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
^ It's underused right now, with the overseer change it'd make it just right. And getting an oversee to contaminate in ZvZ right now is not worth the cost at all, since it's one less muta. I don't think anyone gets overseers in ZvZ right now since mutas are now standard - there's no reason to scout since mutas are better than anything else, and you simply need to know when they went lair, not what tech they went (in which case you won't have an overseer).
And overlord speed upgrade cost reductions would not be the same buff at all. They would be a much stronger buff to scouting, since overlords cost no gas, while overseers still do, and it wouldn't help at all against DT/banshee, which I'd guess was the goal of this change.
I don't think the problem is Zerg getting denied scouting in end-game, it's Zerg getting denied scouting in early and midgame. I don't think DT/Banshee was an issue for Zerg, but maybe blizz thinks so?
To everyone complaining about the infestor nerf, most namely NP, I have finally found a useful argument for the change. Neural Parasite costs 100 energy, and it doesn't make the infestor lose energy. The infestor has a max of 200 energy, so unless the infestor doing the neural parasite has max energy, it wont die to a feedback. This means it will still keep the unit it is using neural parasite on. I still think that the nerf is too much, but it finally makes sense to me. This also counters any arguments that feedback denies any infestor play at all.
NP is channeled, FB does a lot of damage if not outright kill the infestor, making it much easier to snipe. FB counters any infestor play, zerg can't simply just keep going ling/infestor against an army including HT, they have to get roaches, or really just make an army that isn't infestor based. This doesn't counter any arguments at all.
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NP is channeled, FB does a lot of damage if not outright kill the infestor, making it much easier to snipe. FB counters any infestor play, zerg can't simply just keep going ling/infestor against an army including HT, they have to get roaches, or really just make an army that isn't infestor based. This doesn't counter any arguments at all.
in big battle where there are 20-25 stalkers and 20-30 roaches in each army, its not about how low the infestor's health is, its about its position and when a feeback doesnt kill it from that range, you cant really move your stalkers and stop attacking the roaches to kill each of the for example 4-5 infestors grabbing your best units.
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You can blink, and snipe it with colossi. If you're in range to FB, then you can use stalkers to snipe as well. And yes, it's all about positioning. Infestors make battles about position and micro, Protoss with HT can either lose or win based on positioning, but with HT, with both players prepared, they are at an advantage unless Zerg has a way to deal with them (like mass roaches or BL).
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On September 14 2011 06:06 tuho12345 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 13 2011 11:18 viralintruder wrote:
So if this goes through (which it is probably going to) we can expect to see:
-More manner Motherships late game cloaking those colossi to laugh at zergs which can't counter both of them without NP or deal enough damage to warrant losing their infestors everytime they FG. Corrupter > Mothership + Colossi. Anti-air units > Corrupter.
-More mass Thors and Thor/repair mid-game pushes versus Z (even though blizzard specifically stated they do not enjoy seeing mass Thors in any match-up).
-Less effective (slightly) Baneling drops to counter P armies.
-Wild turtled terran tech switches to Battlecruisers if the terran can afford it (what is the zerg going to do about it? Marines>Corrupters and Battlecruisers>Zerg).
-More Ultralisk carcasses in a shorter period.
-More direct Warp Prism harass since they're tankier and can withstand a few more Queen attacks.
-More zergs turning to Roachesfor viable armies to fill the void nerfed Infestors created, which leads to more buffed immortals being produced.
-A very small increase in the only ability of the most useless unit in the game (overseer).
-(This is a Z buff) 6pool w/ all drones all ins may be slightly more effective as the drone attacks (which were previously inferior to the other workers) has now been fixed.
I think overall the blizzard team is just throwing out the stupidest-est as fuck ideas and people are trying to rationalize how intelligent they are by using backwards logic. Blizzard isn't taking balance advice from professionals. Blizzard isn't taking suggestions from their player base. Blizzard is making the game easier, less fun, less exciting, more forgiving to terran and protoss, removing the ability for zerg to control what terran or protoss decide to tech to, and removing the power of zerg mid to late game. This isn't a balance whine, it's all true (or going to be true).
But hey, nerf one race into the ground, at least 2/3 (actually, it's more than 2/3) of the game's players will be more than happy to herp-derp into ridiculous wins against equally skilled or better players. Wow, you're so amazing with all that QQ. Mothership, colossus, anti-air....wow really Protoss can afford that much(Not to mention that Toss can have that big of a army cuz mothership and colossi cost too much supplies) ??? How about mass FG then?? Problem solve right? They have to clump up under mothership to be cloaked, so just keep FG. It could reveal cloak too. Mass Thor and repair?? What are you talking about? How could Protoss stop this build after the SCV repair fix and not Zerg??? Who would send half of his SCV and doing thing like that in mid game ffs.... -Baneling drop still the same. - Marines>corruptors ? Oh, how about FG marines, or make banelings then? W/o marines now you can make hydras or corruptors easily right? Problem solve. -Ultralisk switching between them and BL is pretty good combo, if you wanna cry like IdrA, I recommend go read his thought on this. -Warprism should be a lil bit tankier. A few more shots is good for it, cuz it's expensive, and it's also encourage Toss to harass more and protect HTs more. Nothing wrong with that. -Zerg qq about no good scouting option, so blizz buff overseer. What else do you want??? how about drop 1 roach in his base and burrow to scout. -The drones patch is fixing the bug, how could drone has more advantage than Toss and Terran in this "6 pools" case? All those changes help the game more interesting. May be it's time for you to learn new strat and counter then.
Continue rationalizing zerg nerfs, protoss buffs and a stern coddling given to terran. I'm sure you're seeing this from a fair standpoint.
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On September 14 2011 06:06 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 11:18 viralintruder wrote:
So if this goes through (which it is probably going to) we can expect to see:
-More manner Motherships late game cloaking those colossi to laugh at zergs which can't counter both of them without NP or deal enough damage to warrant losing their infestors everytime they FG. Corrupter > Mothership + Colossi. Anti-air units > Corrupter.
-More mass Thors and Thor/repair mid-game pushes versus Z (even though blizzard specifically stated they do not enjoy seeing mass Thors in any match-up).
-Less effective (slightly) Baneling drops to counter P armies.
-Wild turtled terran tech switches to Battlecruisers if the terran can afford it (what is the zerg going to do about it? Marines>Corrupters and Battlecruisers>Zerg).
-More Ultralisk carcasses in a shorter period.
-More direct Warp Prism harass since they're tankier and can withstand a few more Queen attacks.
-More zergs turning to Roachesfor viable armies to fill the void nerfed Infestors created, which leads to more buffed immortals being produced.
-A very small increase in the only ability of the most useless unit in the game (overseer).
-(This is a Z buff) 6pool w/ all drones all ins may be slightly more effective as the drone attacks (which were previously inferior to the other workers) has now been fixed.
I think overall the blizzard team is just throwing out the stupidest-est as fuck ideas and people are trying to rationalize how intelligent they are by using backwards logic. Blizzard isn't taking balance advice from professionals. Blizzard isn't taking suggestions from their player base. Blizzard is making the game easier, less fun, less exciting, more forgiving to terran and protoss, removing the ability for zerg to control what terran or protoss decide to tech to, and removing the power of zerg mid to late game. This isn't a balance whine, it's all true (or going to be true).
But hey, nerf one race into the ground, at least 2/3 (actually, it's more than 2/3) of the game's players will be more than happy to herp-derp into ridiculous wins against equally skilled or better players. Wow, you're so amazing with all that QQ. -Mothership, colossus, anti-air....wow really Protoss can afford that much(Not to mention that Toss can have that big of a army cuz mothership and colossi cost too much supplies) ??? How about mass FG then?? Problem solve right? They have to clump up under mothership to be cloaked, so just keep FG. It could reveal cloak too. -Mass Thor and repair?? What are you talking about? How could Protoss stop this build after the SCV repair fix and not Zerg??? Who would send half of his SCV and doing thing like that in mid game ffs.... -Baneling drop still the same. - Marines>corruptors ? Oh, how about FG marines, or make banelings then? W/o marines now you can make hydras or corruptors easily right? Problem solve. -Ultralisk switching between them and BL is pretty good combo, if you wanna cry like IdrA, I recommend go read his thought on this. -Warprism should be a lil bit tankier. A few more shots is good for it, cuz it's expensive, and it's also encourage Toss to harass more and protect HTs more. Nothing wrong with that. -Zerg qq about no good scouting option, so blizz buff overseer. What else do you want??? how about drop 1 roach in his base and burrow to scout. -The drones patch is fixing the bug, how could drone has more advantage than Toss and Terran in this "6 pools" case? All those changes help the game more interesting. May be it's time for you to learn new strat and counter then.
- Its not very hard for a Protoss to afford Colossus, Stalkers, and a Mothership.
- Terran doesn't have to send very many, if any SCVs with their Thors vs Zerg. They can just sit back and turtle up till they have a massive number of Thors and other Mech and they will be unstoppable without NP.
- Yeah, Baneling drop is still good and the same but I really don't want that to be like the ONLY solution Zergs have to fighting against Protoss.
- I have no idea if mass BCs will be OP, but there is a good chance they will be if Terran explore that. But quite honestly if you are suggesting a Zerg builds Hydralisks to deal with BCs you are waaaay too low league and experience to even be debating with anybody on here.
- Yeah, tech switching into Ultras will be a bit nicer now.
- Warp Prism buff is fine, completely unnecessary but it doesn't matter, it's a psychological buff to make Protoss players actually explore their options.
- The Overseer change doesn't make any difference to the lack of scouting options Zerg has, this buff is somewhat good but in terms of fixing Zerg's early game scouting options does nothing. You suggest DROPPING A ROACH WITH BURROW to fix Zerg scouting? Are you kidding me? Again you show you have no knowledge of anything related to Zerg.
-TLDR: This guy is either lacks any real applicable knowledge of this game or is just trolling.
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On September 14 2011 07:49 BeeNu wrote:
- Warp Prism buff is fine, completely unnecessary but it doesn't matter, it's a psychological buff to make Protoss players actually explore their options.
/
Honestly when i see people say Protoss isnt exploring their options I cant take anything they take seriously.
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On September 14 2011 07:58 Philip2110 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 07:49 BeeNu wrote:
- Warp Prism buff is fine, completely unnecessary but it doesn't matter, it's a psychological buff to make Protoss players actually explore their options.
/ Honestly when i see people say Protoss isnt exploring their options I cant take anything they take seriously.
Protoss has explored a great many options, but if you are going to argue that 1 year into the game every conceivable build that will ever exist has been found and that every timing has been exploited...you are wrong. The archon was never explored as an opening until the + range and massive buff. Yes the buff helped (obviously). The most important part though was getting protosses to really dedicate to it as a build. The warp prism is really the only unit that protosses never experimented with. It was theorycrafted about a lot, and plenty of low level (read masters and down) players have tried throwing it in. That isn't really effective at creating a build though. Incontrol (who protosses love to quite to support their QQ/balance suggestions) has stated not even he can make a build because his mechanics aren't there. When someone shows me a player better than incontrol who gave the warpprism their all and determined it to be a waste of time then I will bellieve it. Currently WhiteRa and Kiwikaki are the only players I know of who bother with it, and they found success. However, their builds are still in the infancy stages in terms of overall gameplay. The exploration has not been flushed out by any means.
tl;dr there is some credance to saying "protosses haven't exlored their options", just not to insinuating that they only ever tried one thing
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On September 14 2011 07:49 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 06:06 tuho12345 wrote:On September 13 2011 11:18 viralintruder wrote:
So if this goes through (which it is probably going to) we can expect to see:
-More manner Motherships late game cloaking those colossi to laugh at zergs which can't counter both of them without NP or deal enough damage to warrant losing their infestors everytime they FG. Corrupter > Mothership + Colossi. Anti-air units > Corrupter.
-More mass Thors and Thor/repair mid-game pushes versus Z (even though blizzard specifically stated they do not enjoy seeing mass Thors in any match-up).
-Less effective (slightly) Baneling drops to counter P armies.
-Wild turtled terran tech switches to Battlecruisers if the terran can afford it (what is the zerg going to do about it? Marines>Corrupters and Battlecruisers>Zerg).
-More Ultralisk carcasses in a shorter period.
-More direct Warp Prism harass since they're tankier and can withstand a few more Queen attacks.
-More zergs turning to Roachesfor viable armies to fill the void nerfed Infestors created, which leads to more buffed immortals being produced.
-A very small increase in the only ability of the most useless unit in the game (overseer).
-(This is a Z buff) 6pool w/ all drones all ins may be slightly more effective as the drone attacks (which were previously inferior to the other workers) has now been fixed.
I think overall the blizzard team is just throwing out the stupidest-est as fuck ideas and people are trying to rationalize how intelligent they are by using backwards logic. Blizzard isn't taking balance advice from professionals. Blizzard isn't taking suggestions from their player base. Blizzard is making the game easier, less fun, less exciting, more forgiving to terran and protoss, removing the ability for zerg to control what terran or protoss decide to tech to, and removing the power of zerg mid to late game. This isn't a balance whine, it's all true (or going to be true).
But hey, nerf one race into the ground, at least 2/3 (actually, it's more than 2/3) of the game's players will be more than happy to herp-derp into ridiculous wins against equally skilled or better players. Wow, you're so amazing with all that QQ. -Mothership, colossus, anti-air....wow really Protoss can afford that much(Not to mention that Toss can have that big of a army cuz mothership and colossi cost too much supplies) ??? How about mass FG then?? Problem solve right? They have to clump up under mothership to be cloaked, so just keep FG. It could reveal cloak too. -Mass Thor and repair?? What are you talking about? How could Protoss stop this build after the SCV repair fix and not Zerg??? Who would send half of his SCV and doing thing like that in mid game ffs.... -Baneling drop still the same. - Marines>corruptors ? Oh, how about FG marines, or make banelings then? W/o marines now you can make hydras or corruptors easily right? Problem solve. -Ultralisk switching between them and BL is pretty good combo, if you wanna cry like IdrA, I recommend go read his thought on this. -Warprism should be a lil bit tankier. A few more shots is good for it, cuz it's expensive, and it's also encourage Toss to harass more and protect HTs more. Nothing wrong with that. -Zerg qq about no good scouting option, so blizz buff overseer. What else do you want??? how about drop 1 roach in his base and burrow to scout. -The drones patch is fixing the bug, how could drone has more advantage than Toss and Terran in this "6 pools" case? All those changes help the game more interesting. May be it's time for you to learn new strat and counter then. - Its not very hard for a Protoss to afford Colossus, Stalkers, and a Mothership. - Terran doesn't have to send very many, if any SCVs with their Thors vs Zerg. They can just sit back and turtle up till they have a massive number of Thors and other Mech and they will be unstoppable without NP. - Yeah, Baneling drop is still good and the same but I really don't want that to be like the ONLY solution Zergs have to fighting against Protoss. - I have no idea if mass BCs will be OP, but there is a good chance they will be if Terran explore that. But quite honestly if you are suggesting a Zerg builds Hydralisks to deal with BCs you are waaaay too low league and experience to even be debating with anybody on here. - Yeah, tech switching into Ultras will be a bit nicer now. - Warp Prism buff is fine, completely unnecessary but it doesn't matter, it's a psychological buff to make Protoss players actually explore their options. - The Overseer change doesn't make any difference to the lack of scouting options Zerg has, this buff is somewhat good but in terms of fixing Zerg's early game scouting options does nothing. You suggest DROPPING A ROACH WITH BURROW to fix Zerg scouting? Are you kidding me? Again you show you have no knowledge of anything related to Zerg. -TLDR: This guy is either lacks any real applicable knowledge of this game or is just trolling.
You didn't get the sarcasm against the previous post did you? So don't fucking quote. The only thing you can response to the QQ and whining is sarcasm. Cuz you know there's nothing you can do to help those whiners to change their stubborn mind. So shut up and don't need to tell me about Zerg or the game.
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On September 14 2011 06:57 viralintruder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 06:06 tuho12345 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 13 2011 11:18 viralintruder wrote:
So if this goes through (which it is probably going to) we can expect to see:
-More manner Motherships late game cloaking those colossi to laugh at zergs which can't counter both of them without NP or deal enough damage to warrant losing their infestors everytime they FG. Corrupter > Mothership + Colossi. Anti-air units > Corrupter.
-More mass Thors and Thor/repair mid-game pushes versus Z (even though blizzard specifically stated they do not enjoy seeing mass Thors in any match-up).
-Less effective (slightly) Baneling drops to counter P armies.
-Wild turtled terran tech switches to Battlecruisers if the terran can afford it (what is the zerg going to do about it? Marines>Corrupters and Battlecruisers>Zerg).
-More Ultralisk carcasses in a shorter period.
-More direct Warp Prism harass since they're tankier and can withstand a few more Queen attacks.
-More zergs turning to Roachesfor viable armies to fill the void nerfed Infestors created, which leads to more buffed immortals being produced.
-A very small increase in the only ability of the most useless unit in the game (overseer).
-(This is a Z buff) 6pool w/ all drones all ins may be slightly more effective as the drone attacks (which were previously inferior to the other workers) has now been fixed.
I think overall the blizzard team is just throwing out the stupidest-est as fuck ideas and people are trying to rationalize how intelligent they are by using backwards logic. Blizzard isn't taking balance advice from professionals. Blizzard isn't taking suggestions from their player base. Blizzard is making the game easier, less fun, less exciting, more forgiving to terran and protoss, removing the ability for zerg to control what terran or protoss decide to tech to, and removing the power of zerg mid to late game. This isn't a balance whine, it's all true (or going to be true).
But hey, nerf one race into the ground, at least 2/3 (actually, it's more than 2/3) of the game's players will be more than happy to herp-derp into ridiculous wins against equally skilled or better players. Wow, you're so amazing with all that QQ. Mothership, colossus, anti-air....wow really Protoss can afford that much(Not to mention that Toss can have that big of a army cuz mothership and colossi cost too much supplies) ??? How about mass FG then?? Problem solve right? They have to clump up under mothership to be cloaked, so just keep FG. It could reveal cloak too. Mass Thor and repair?? What are you talking about? How could Protoss stop this build after the SCV repair fix and not Zerg??? Who would send half of his SCV and doing thing like that in mid game ffs.... -Baneling drop still the same. - Marines>corruptors ? Oh, how about FG marines, or make banelings then? W/o marines now you can make hydras or corruptors easily right? Problem solve. -Ultralisk switching between them and BL is pretty good combo, if you wanna cry like IdrA, I recommend go read his thought on this. -Warprism should be a lil bit tankier. A few more shots is good for it, cuz it's expensive, and it's also encourage Toss to harass more and protect HTs more. Nothing wrong with that. -Zerg qq about no good scouting option, so blizz buff overseer. What else do you want??? how about drop 1 roach in his base and burrow to scout. -The drones patch is fixing the bug, how could drone has more advantage than Toss and Terran in this "6 pools" case? All those changes help the game more interesting. May be it's time for you to learn new strat and counter then. Continue rationalizing zerg nerfs, protoss buffs and a stern coddling given to terran. I'm sure you're seeing this from a fair standpoint.
The irony is cringe worthy.
Do you play random?
Did you actually play the PTR?
People coming to this thread will have a bad impressions about Zerg players because of the BS QQ from the few whiners here, that I can assure you.
Edit: Do I need a new sarcasm detector?
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On September 14 2011 08:50 bond1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 07:58 Philip2110 wrote:On September 14 2011 07:49 BeeNu wrote:
- Warp Prism buff is fine, completely unnecessary but it doesn't matter, it's a psychological buff to make Protoss players actually explore their options.
/ Honestly when i see people say Protoss isnt exploring their options I cant take anything they take seriously. Protoss has explored a great many options, but if you are going to argue that 1 year into the game every conceivable build that will ever exist has been found and that every timing has been exploited...you are wrong. The archon was never explored as an opening until the + range and massive buff. Yes the buff helped (obviously). The most important part though was getting protosses to really dedicate to it as a build. The warp prism is really the only unit that protosses never experimented with. It was theorycrafted about a lot, and plenty of low level (read masters and down) players have tried throwing it in. That isn't really effective at creating a build though. Incontrol (who protosses love to quite to support their QQ/balance suggestions) has stated not even he can make a build because his mechanics aren't there. When someone shows me a player better than incontrol who gave the warpprism their all and determined it to be a waste of time then I will bellieve it. Currently WhiteRa and Kiwikaki are the only players I know of who bother with it, and they found success. However, their builds are still in the infancy stages in terms of overall gameplay. The exploration has not been flushed out by any means. tl;dr there is some credance to saying "protosses haven't exlored their options", just not to insinuating that they only ever tried one thing
Mate the 'you telling me one year into the game and they have explored every possible build' is the dumbest shit I have heard in a long time. The same thing can be said about any of the races, but everyone likes to use it as an excuse for why toss is losing. Maybe toss just doesn't HAVE as many options? You are seriously telling that toss players who play this game are inherently worse/lazier than their Terran and Zerg counterparts, and that they are content with losing and still refuse to explore other options? Yeah ok whatever buddy.
And you are wrong the Archon change was of key importance. The extra range means they can actually shoot over the shoulder of zealots, and their massive status means they don't get gimped by concussive, forcefield and to a lesser extent phoenix. I think it's wrong to insinuate that the change was largely symbolic.
And as someone who watches WhiteRa stream a lot, i wouldn't say he has 'found success' with it; yeah sure he beats a lot of ladder nubs who he is clearly much better than, but he has also run into his fair share of failures (colossus drops getting sniped cause warp prism are so fragile).
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On September 14 2011 07:49 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 06:06 tuho12345 wrote:On September 13 2011 11:18 viralintruder wrote:
So if this goes through (which it is probably going to) we can expect to see:
-More manner Motherships late game cloaking those colossi to laugh at zergs which can't counter both of them without NP or deal enough damage to warrant losing their infestors everytime they FG. Corrupter > Mothership + Colossi. Anti-air units > Corrupter.
-More mass Thors and Thor/repair mid-game pushes versus Z (even though blizzard specifically stated they do not enjoy seeing mass Thors in any match-up).
-Less effective (slightly) Baneling drops to counter P armies.
-Wild turtled terran tech switches to Battlecruisers if the terran can afford it (what is the zerg going to do about it? Marines>Corrupters and Battlecruisers>Zerg).
-More Ultralisk carcasses in a shorter period.
-More direct Warp Prism harass since they're tankier and can withstand a few more Queen attacks.
-More zergs turning to Roachesfor viable armies to fill the void nerfed Infestors created, which leads to more buffed immortals being produced.
-A very small increase in the only ability of the most useless unit in the game (overseer).
-(This is a Z buff) 6pool w/ all drones all ins may be slightly more effective as the drone attacks (which were previously inferior to the other workers) has now been fixed.
I think overall the blizzard team is just throwing out the stupidest-est as fuck ideas and people are trying to rationalize how intelligent they are by using backwards logic. Blizzard isn't taking balance advice from professionals. Blizzard isn't taking suggestions from their player base. Blizzard is making the game easier, less fun, less exciting, more forgiving to terran and protoss, removing the ability for zerg to control what terran or protoss decide to tech to, and removing the power of zerg mid to late game. This isn't a balance whine, it's all true (or going to be true).
But hey, nerf one race into the ground, at least 2/3 (actually, it's more than 2/3) of the game's players will be more than happy to herp-derp into ridiculous wins against equally skilled or better players. Wow, you're so amazing with all that QQ. -Mothership, colossus, anti-air....wow really Protoss can afford that much(Not to mention that Toss can have that big of a army cuz mothership and colossi cost too much supplies) ??? How about mass FG then?? Problem solve right? They have to clump up under mothership to be cloaked, so just keep FG. It could reveal cloak too. -Mass Thor and repair?? What are you talking about? How could Protoss stop this build after the SCV repair fix and not Zerg??? Who would send half of his SCV and doing thing like that in mid game ffs.... -Baneling drop still the same. - Marines>corruptors ? Oh, how about FG marines, or make banelings then? W/o marines now you can make hydras or corruptors easily right? Problem solve. -Ultralisk switching between them and BL is pretty good combo, if you wanna cry like IdrA, I recommend go read his thought on this. -Warprism should be a lil bit tankier. A few more shots is good for it, cuz it's expensive, and it's also encourage Toss to harass more and protect HTs more. Nothing wrong with that. -Zerg qq about no good scouting option, so blizz buff overseer. What else do you want??? how about drop 1 roach in his base and burrow to scout. -The drones patch is fixing the bug, how could drone has more advantage than Toss and Terran in this "6 pools" case? All those changes help the game more interesting. May be it's time for you to learn new strat and counter then. - Its not very hard for a Protoss to afford Colossus, Stalkers, and a Mothership. - Terran doesn't have to send very many, if any SCVs with their Thors vs Zerg. They can just sit back and turtle up till they have a massive number of Thors and other Mech and they will be unstoppable without NP. - Yeah, Baneling drop is still good and the same but I really don't want that to be like the ONLY solution Zergs have to fighting against Protoss. - I have no idea if mass BCs will be OP, but there is a good chance they will be if Terran explore that. But quite honestly if you are suggesting a Zerg builds Hydralisks to deal with BCs you are waaaay too low league and experience to even be debating with anybody on here. - Yeah, tech switching into Ultras will be a bit nicer now. - Warp Prism buff is fine, completely unnecessary but it doesn't matter, it's a psychological buff to make Protoss players actually explore their options. - The Overseer change doesn't make any difference to the lack of scouting options Zerg has, this buff is somewhat good but in terms of fixing Zerg's early game scouting options does nothing. You suggest DROPPING A ROACH WITH BURROW to fix Zerg scouting? Are you kidding me? Again you show you have no knowledge of anything related to Zerg. -TLDR: This guy is either lacks any real applicable knowledge of this game or is just trolling.
- Yea colossus and stalkers are pretty affordable, agreed. They come out very quickly is the issue, so Zerg can't get hive tech.
- Mass thor is easily dealt with zergling/roach or zergling/muta or roach/muta. The problem is siege tanks, which is true in any terran composition. NP is not really viable with high siege tank counts (or ghosts). It's not like mass thor or siege tanks owned every game back when infestors were worthless. Unlike Protoss though, siege tanks and thors take a very long time to get out, and you need more than just 4 of them. NP is not really a good way to deal with mech or thors, by the time you can get that many infestors, you're better off with broodlords.
- Baneling drop is great, but Protoss can do too much to nullify it. Mass stalker and void rays aren't exactly units that have niche roles, it's not like Zerg can go baneling drop and Protoss has to change what they are doing. It's not like going stargate for P, then going to colossi. On top of that, protoss can micro out of baneling rain, whereas Zerg just has to hope Protoss doesn't micro or gets out of position, which admittedly can happen in a lot of situations.
- Mass BC was never good because of Corruptors and queens. NP was never a viable way to deal with it. BC's are actually very good 'counters' to infestors, particularly BC/Ghost.
- I would have preferred if warp prism lift stayed where it was, and they lowered the cost on speed prism upgrade. The problem wasn't the life or cost of the prism, I believe it was the cost on speed and it competing in the robo for other units.
- I think his roach burrow comment was trolling, but either way yea, it's kind of obvious he doesn't play zerg. This overseer change does not really help, the problem wasn't that zerg scouting wasn't expensive, it was that Zerg can't scout before lair what Terran or Protoss was hiding in their base, and Zerg was too susceptible to being surprised when they can't possibly scout. The overseer change is complete bullshit.
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On September 14 2011 07:58 Philip2110 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 07:49 BeeNu wrote:
- Warp Prism buff is fine, completely unnecessary but it doesn't matter, it's a psychological buff to make Protoss players actually explore their options.
/ Honestly when i see people say Protoss isnt exploring their options I cant take anything they take seriously.
Agree and disagree there. All the professional pros have been experimenting with warp prisms to some success, but also most masters- players are still going the regular builds from 2 months ago.
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On September 14 2011 11:46 AxelTVx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 07:58 Philip2110 wrote:On September 14 2011 07:49 BeeNu wrote:
- Warp Prism buff is fine, completely unnecessary but it doesn't matter, it's a psychological buff to make Protoss players actually explore their options.
/ Honestly when i see people say Protoss isnt exploring their options I cant take anything they take seriously. Agree and disagree there. All the professional pros have been experimenting with warp prisms to some success, but also most masters- players are still going the regular builds from 2 months ago.
yeah and balance only really matters at the pro level
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Man I swear. How many zergs here say NP=unstoppable deathball. But guess what? how many games have you actually seens where a 200 food deathball lost due to NP? I can't think of any. The thing is when toss is maxed with HT/colossus, then NP is strong but not devastating(chain fungal is much more scary) Feedback+other colossus sniping can take care of NP. The problem is NP can be researched to stop any mid game pushes: when protoss don't have blink/temps due to going the colossus route. Then NP+mass lings=auto loss. An easier fix to NP is make it not target air(mothership seem to epic to NP), make it hive tech and longer research time. This way it can still fight end game mass mech from terran however it won't stop any mid game robo play.
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On September 14 2011 07:49 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 06:06 tuho12345 wrote:On September 13 2011 11:18 viralintruder wrote:
So if this goes through (which it is probably going to) we can expect to see:
-More manner Motherships late game cloaking those colossi to laugh at zergs which can't counter both of them without NP or deal enough damage to warrant losing their infestors everytime they FG. Corrupter > Mothership + Colossi. Anti-air units > Corrupter.
-More mass Thors and Thor/repair mid-game pushes versus Z (even though blizzard specifically stated they do not enjoy seeing mass Thors in any match-up).
-Less effective (slightly) Baneling drops to counter P armies.
-Wild turtled terran tech switches to Battlecruisers if the terran can afford it (what is the zerg going to do about it? Marines>Corrupters and Battlecruisers>Zerg).
-More Ultralisk carcasses in a shorter period.
-More direct Warp Prism harass since they're tankier and can withstand a few more Queen attacks.
-More zergs turning to Roachesfor viable armies to fill the void nerfed Infestors created, which leads to more buffed immortals being produced.
-A very small increase in the only ability of the most useless unit in the game (overseer).
-(This is a Z buff) 6pool w/ all drones all ins may be slightly more effective as the drone attacks (which were previously inferior to the other workers) has now been fixed.
I think overall the blizzard team is just throwing out the stupidest-est as fuck ideas and people are trying to rationalize how intelligent they are by using backwards logic. Blizzard isn't taking balance advice from professionals. Blizzard isn't taking suggestions from their player base. Blizzard is making the game easier, less fun, less exciting, more forgiving to terran and protoss, removing the ability for zerg to control what terran or protoss decide to tech to, and removing the power of zerg mid to late game. This isn't a balance whine, it's all true (or going to be true).
But hey, nerf one race into the ground, at least 2/3 (actually, it's more than 2/3) of the game's players will be more than happy to herp-derp into ridiculous wins against equally skilled or better players. Wow, you're so amazing with all that QQ. -Mothership, colossus, anti-air....wow really Protoss can afford that much(Not to mention that Toss can have that big of a army cuz mothership and colossi cost too much supplies) ??? How about mass FG then?? Problem solve right? They have to clump up under mothership to be cloaked, so just keep FG. It could reveal cloak too. -Mass Thor and repair?? What are you talking about? How could Protoss stop this build after the SCV repair fix and not Zerg??? Who would send half of his SCV and doing thing like that in mid game ffs.... -Baneling drop still the same. - Marines>corruptors ? Oh, how about FG marines, or make banelings then? W/o marines now you can make hydras or corruptors easily right? Problem solve. -Ultralisk switching between them and BL is pretty good combo, if you wanna cry like IdrA, I recommend go read his thought on this. -Warprism should be a lil bit tankier. A few more shots is good for it, cuz it's expensive, and it's also encourage Toss to harass more and protect HTs more. Nothing wrong with that. -Zerg qq about no good scouting option, so blizz buff overseer. What else do you want??? how about drop 1 roach in his base and burrow to scout. -The drones patch is fixing the bug, how could drone has more advantage than Toss and Terran in this "6 pools" case? All those changes help the game more interesting. May be it's time for you to learn new strat and counter then. - Its not very hard for a Protoss to afford Colossus, Stalkers, and a Mothership.-TLDR: This guy is either lacks any real applicable knowledge of this game or is just trolling.
Really. The most expensive unit in the game is now not that hard to get? I guess I should go Colossus, Stalker, Mothership every game now since it is so affordable. I can do this off of one base right? Two base? At what point exactly should I get Robo Bay and Stargate and Fleet Beacon?
Is no one else reading this ridiculousness?
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If you have lost to a Zerg going pure ling infestor with NP, you have done something considerably wrong with your composition and execution.
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i'm really curious at the reasoning for the NP nerf. If they were really that concerned with it, wouldn't it have been better to increase the mana cost or decrease the range? Maybe it's just me, but it seems like they are trying to make upgrade pointless to match up with nitro pack
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^ Yea, exactly. If Zerg went drone heavy, you can grab a super fast third and get HT. If Zerg went ling heavy and thus only has 30-40 drones, you can simply defend, then grab your third and get HT. The problem is many people don't get HT, or go for stargate or blink which are pretty much hard countered by infestors (kind of like how HT/observer basically BO wins against infestor/ling).
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I'm just slapping my head against the wall every-time I read a post tat says Mass BC will be OP now due to the Neural Parasite nerf. I'm pretty sure if you allow your Opponent to get 200/200 on BCs you kind of deserve to lose.
Also regarding the banling drops. I kind of like the change. Zerg's have gone to realize how to learn the different possibilities of their race. And now that Roach ling Infestor is Standard banling drops are not really a requirement for Zergs. Personally I found the whole realize on Banling Drops to be quite silly.
And Warprism buff. I really could careless about it. It really doesn't make a difference. But it will probably get Protosses exploring the option more.
Recently an article came up explaining how the real protoss strength comes from instant reinforcement. And that is why Protoss early-game timing pushes are so strong. The article continues to explain that for that reason mid to late game GW units appear to be weaker against other low teir units from opposing races. Although this is some what true, the reality is that after the early game Protosses have difficulty establishing forward wrap in points NEAR the battle. Building Pylons is not only a risk, but takes time, and greatly slows down mobility having to wait for the pylon to build.
If Protosses begin using WP during the mid to late game rather then forward pylons, and warp in during battles, I feel that Protoss players will find the true strength of Warp ins. Right now I fee lthey simply aren't taking Full advantage.
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4 Zealots dropped + 3 Zealots warped in could quickly wreck a hatchery while the Zerg is occupied with a battle. However, is losing 3-7 Zealots worth killing a hatch?
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EPT
