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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 14 2011 12:48 Belial88 wrote:
^ Yea, exactly. If Zerg went drone heavy, you can grab a super fast third and get HT. If Zerg went ling heavy and thus only has 30-40 drones, you can simply defend, then grab your third and get HT. The problem is many people don't get HT, or go for stargate or blink which are pretty much hard countered by infestors (kind of like how HT/observer basically BO wins against infestor/ling).
Alot of people are in the mentality that Storms suck against Roaches. What really is happening is that people aren't seeing Roaches instantaneously die like Marines do. As a result they perceive that Storm is a weak choice. 80 damage is 80 damage regardless of whether its the nail in the coffin.
Archons are also amazing units.
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On September 14 2011 12:57 GinDo wrote:
I'm pretty sure if you allow your Opponent to get 200/200 on BCs you kind of deserve to lose.
Not if you have twice amount of bases and managed to save lots of resources as zerg. In all honesty being terran myself I could say - There is nothing zerg can do to beat mass BCs.
I'm definitely going to incorporate more BCs in my games, they are pretty fast now.
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I think that they should make the energy cost for a neural change based on what they are targeting. So if you want to neural a massive unit, it costs a lot more than to neural a small thing. This makes it useful to upgrade no matter what build your opponent is using. It also nerfs it a bit against big things like a collosus or a thor. Maybe motherships would cost max energy or something.
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Best patch so far, hopefully we should see some toss players in the top in korean tournaments once again now  .
I understand if zerg players aren't too happy about the infestor nerf, but come on... They were pretty damn strong before and some nerf had to happend.
What I don't get however is, why is this patch being delayed so much?
I also wanna add regarding storm, that storm is NOT 80 damage on the same way as fungal is 36 damage. For storm to be 80 damage, a unit has to stay in the storm for full duration, which is obviously quite stupid to do.
I've seen several storms failing to kill zerglings with just 1 storm, I dno how often this happends with fungal for example.
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On September 14 2011 14:18 Chamie wrote:Best patch so far, hopefully we should see some toss players in the top in korean tournaments once again now . I understand if zerg players aren't too happy about the infestor nerf, but come on... They were pretty damn strong before and some nerf had to happend. What I don't get however is, why is this patch being delayed so much?
Delayed eh? I thought it always took Blizzard quite some time before they finally update the servers.
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On September 14 2011 14:11 McMonty wrote:
I think that they should make the energy cost for a neural change based on what they are targeting. So if you want to neural a massive unit, it costs a lot more than to neural a small thing. This makes it useful to upgrade no matter what build your opponent is using. It also nerfs it a bit against big things like a collosus or a thor. Maybe motherships would cost max energy or something.
I think you're on the right track with some sort of compromise so massive units aren't countered so easily by neural. Perhaps offset the nerf by making neural better against non-massive units, etc.
A few suggestions:
Neural half duration or twice energy cost vs massive units?
Neural twice the duration or half energy cost on 2 supply or less units?
Neuraling a massive unit kills/injures/incapacitates/silences/stuns/slows the Infestor when it ends?
Each infestor can neural a certain amount of supply (perhaps one infestor can neural up to three marines, but it takes two infestors to neural a 6 supply colossus)?
I do think the change is too harsh, but I also think something needs to be done, especially in ZvP where Archons and Colossi are so prone to being neuraled even though they are key components of the Protoss army. A compromise needs to be made, and there are many different ways Blizzard can reach that compromise in a fair manner.
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On September 14 2011 13:22 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 12:57 GinDo wrote:
I'm pretty sure if you allow your Opponent to get 200/200 on BCs you kind of deserve to lose.
Not if you have twice amount of bases and managed to save lots of resources as zerg. In all honesty being terran myself I could say - There is nothing zerg can do to beat mass BCs. I'm definitely going to incorporate more BCs in my games, they are pretty fast now.
Corruptors are pretty damn good vs BCs if your able to mass BCs and he can't mass corruptors enough to kill them then he's pretty much a noob. Would not say nothing you can do vs BCs lol.
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Some guys claim they can still NP thors on PTR server. Is this a joke/lie?
When I try to do it, I get a message similar to 'cannot target massive units'
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On September 14 2011 17:40 darkness wrote:
Some guys claim they can still NP thors on PTR server. Is this a joke/lie?
When I try to do it, I get a message similar to 'cannot target massive units'
If u can't do it u can safely assume others also can't -.-
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On September 14 2011 17:40 darkness wrote:
Some guys claim they can still NP thors on PTR server. Is this a joke/lie?
When I try to do it, I get a message similar to 'cannot target massive units'
Are you on EU server? It's possible the different servers have different PTR settings.
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The PTR is global, isn't it? I played many koreans.
And also, yes, I had my Thors NP'ed, but I have just tested it and it doesn't work right now.
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On September 14 2011 17:48 Jakkerr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 17:40 darkness wrote:
Some guys claim they can still NP thors on PTR server. Is this a joke/lie?
When I try to do it, I get a message similar to 'cannot target massive units' If u can't do it u can safely assume others also can't -.-
It's not possible to safely assume that. For example, there might be a bug that allows you to NP massive units (e.g. first fungal, then NP). 
On September 14 2011 17:54 Emporio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 17:40 darkness wrote:
Some guys claim they can still NP thors on PTR server. Is this a joke/lie?
When I try to do it, I get a message similar to 'cannot target massive units' Are you on EU server? It's possible the different servers have different PTR settings.
Yep, but it seems shackes confirms that rumour.
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I actually like all the changes (I guess, have to play though to get a feeling for what they really do) except the neural change. Targeting massive units was the only way to make neural effective/ efficient. I don't think that there will be any use for this spell now since it is worth more to build a own attacking unit now.
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On September 14 2011 14:23 Mios wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 14:11 McMonty wrote:
I think that they should make the energy cost for a neural change based on what they are targeting. So if you want to neural a massive unit, it costs a lot more than to neural a small thing. This makes it useful to upgrade no matter what build your opponent is using. It also nerfs it a bit against big things like a collosus or a thor. Maybe motherships would cost max energy or something. I think you're on the right track with some sort of compromise so massive units aren't countered so easily by neural. Perhaps offset the nerf by making neural better against non-massive units, etc. A few suggestions: Neural half duration or twice energy cost vs massive units? Neural twice the duration or half energy cost on 2 supply or less units? Neuraling a massive unit kills/injures/incapacitates/silences/stuns/slows the Infestor when it ends? Each infestor can neural a certain amount of supply (perhaps one infestor can neural up to three marines, but it takes two infestors to neural a 6 supply colossus)? I do think the change is too harsh, but I also think something needs to be done, especially in ZvP where Archons and Colossi are so prone to being neuraled even though they are key components of the Protoss army. A compromise needs to be made, and there are many different ways Blizzard can reach that compromise in a fair manner.
I like your idea of having different neural cost for different units.
I wish they made NP cost 40 energy for every food of the unit and allow several NP to be casted at the same time. That would make NP more of a micro ability, make it impossible to use on 6 food units, and give it some utility after the patch.
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On September 14 2011 07:49 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 06:06 tuho12345 wrote:On September 13 2011 11:18 viralintruder wrote:
So if this goes through (which it is probably going to) we can expect to see:
-More manner Motherships late game cloaking those colossi to laugh at zergs which can't counter both of them without NP or deal enough damage to warrant losing their infestors everytime they FG. Corrupter > Mothership + Colossi. Anti-air units > Corrupter.
-More mass Thors and Thor/repair mid-game pushes versus Z (even though blizzard specifically stated they do not enjoy seeing mass Thors in any match-up).
-Less effective (slightly) Baneling drops to counter P armies.
-Wild turtled terran tech switches to Battlecruisers if the terran can afford it (what is the zerg going to do about it? Marines>Corrupters and Battlecruisers>Zerg).
-More Ultralisk carcasses in a shorter period.
-More direct Warp Prism harass since they're tankier and can withstand a few more Queen attacks.
-More zergs turning to Roachesfor viable armies to fill the void nerfed Infestors created, which leads to more buffed immortals being produced.
-A very small increase in the only ability of the most useless unit in the game (overseer).
-(This is a Z buff) 6pool w/ all drones all ins may be slightly more effective as the drone attacks (which were previously inferior to the other workers) has now been fixed.
I think overall the blizzard team is just throwing out the stupidest-est as fuck ideas and people are trying to rationalize how intelligent they are by using backwards logic. Blizzard isn't taking balance advice from professionals. Blizzard isn't taking suggestions from their player base. Blizzard is making the game easier, less fun, less exciting, more forgiving to terran and protoss, removing the ability for zerg to control what terran or protoss decide to tech to, and removing the power of zerg mid to late game. This isn't a balance whine, it's all true (or going to be true).
But hey, nerf one race into the ground, at least 2/3 (actually, it's more than 2/3) of the game's players will be more than happy to herp-derp into ridiculous wins against equally skilled or better players. Wow, you're so amazing with all that QQ. -Mothership, colossus, anti-air....wow really Protoss can afford that much(Not to mention that Toss can have that big of a army cuz mothership and colossi cost too much supplies) ??? How about mass FG then?? Problem solve right? They have to clump up under mothership to be cloaked, so just keep FG. It could reveal cloak too. -Mass Thor and repair?? What are you talking about? How could Protoss stop this build after the SCV repair fix and not Zerg??? Who would send half of his SCV and doing thing like that in mid game ffs.... -Baneling drop still the same. - Marines>corruptors ? Oh, how about FG marines, or make banelings then? W/o marines now you can make hydras or corruptors easily right? Problem solve. -Ultralisk switching between them and BL is pretty good combo, if you wanna cry like IdrA, I recommend go read his thought on this. -Warprism should be a lil bit tankier. A few more shots is good for it, cuz it's expensive, and it's also encourage Toss to harass more and protect HTs more. Nothing wrong with that. -Zerg qq about no good scouting option, so blizz buff overseer. What else do you want??? how about drop 1 roach in his base and burrow to scout. -The drones patch is fixing the bug, how could drone has more advantage than Toss and Terran in this "6 pools" case? All those changes help the game more interesting. May be it's time for you to learn new strat and counter then. - Its not very hard for a Protoss to afford Colossus, Stalkers, and a Mothership. - Terran doesn't have to send very many, if any SCVs with their Thors vs Zerg. They can just sit back and turtle up till they have a massive number of Thors and other Mech and they will be unstoppable without NP. -TLDR: This guy is either lacks any real applicable knowledge of this game or is just trolling.
terran sit back and turtle? do you listen to yourself?
go and try a pure mech that sits on his base and turtle. enjoy being 80 foods under when zerg max and pour into your main or 3rd while your immobile thors can't reach any of them fast enough.
Or when brood comes out in masses because zerg have 7 bases running with every one of them mining gas, while you're still trying to get that 4th up and still can't put out any pressure whatsoever without fear of getting counter attacked
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On September 14 2011 13:02 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 12:48 Belial88 wrote:
^ Yea, exactly. If Zerg went drone heavy, you can grab a super fast third and get HT. If Zerg went ling heavy and thus only has 30-40 drones, you can simply defend, then grab your third and get HT. The problem is many people don't get HT, or go for stargate or blink which are pretty much hard countered by infestors (kind of like how HT/observer basically BO wins against infestor/ling).
Alot of people are in the mentality that Storms suck against Roaches. What really is happening is that people aren't seeing Roaches instantaneously die like Marines do. As a result they perceive that Storm is a weak choice. 80 damage is 80 damage regardless of whether its the nail in the coffin.
Archons are also amazing units.
That's so damn wrong....
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On September 14 2011 12:48 Belial88 wrote:
^ Yea, exactly. If Zerg went drone heavy, you can grab a super fast third and get HT. If Zerg went ling heavy and thus only has 30-40 drones, you can simply defend, then grab your third and get HT. The problem is many people don't get HT, or go for stargate or blink which are pretty much hard countered by infestors (kind of like how HT/observer basically BO wins against infestor/ling).
No surprise that a zerg player asks toss players to do stupid things in PvZ. Grab a super fast third against zerg? Tech to HT, relying on what in the interim? Needless to say if you don't put any sort of pressure on the zerg to limit his options, either in the way of stargates, colossi pushes and/or blink stalkers, you are going to be flooded sooner or later.
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holy fucking shit that NP nerf. but it is sort of ridiculous they could NP massive units in the first place imo
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On September 14 2011 18:43 Batch wrote:I wish they made NP cost 40 energy for every food of the unit and allow several NP to be casted at the same time. That would make NP more of a micro ability, make it impossible to use on 6 food units, and give it some utility after the patch.
Holy shit that would be awesome.
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On September 14 2011 20:58 dbddbddb wrote:
holy fucking shit that NP nerf. but it is sort of ridiculous they could NP massive units in the first place imo
It's ridiculous that they can spit marines out as well (WHERE DO THEY GET THEY FROM?!?)... yet they do it! 
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EPT
