|
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
I gave up SC2 yesterday due to the incoming NP nerf.
Went and picked up Space Marine after work on Monday and I'll just keep playing whatever new game comes out.
I wish I could say the past year of SC2 was good... but honestly it was all in hopes that SC2 WOULD be good soon...
The fact that the NP change is even on the PTR blatantly shows that Blizzard has no clue what they're doing with Zerg, so I'll just give it up now... Zerg isn't going to get better.
I won't say I don't have time to play a broken game. I have, and will continue to play games that have obvious balance issues. But I don't need to stick to one aging RTS game that the developers are taking in the wrong direction.
I'll look back in a few months, and in that time I hope Blizzard can figure out what they want to do with the game. Otherwise, I'll probably come back for a few weeks at the upcoming expansions then move on.
|
On September 14 2011 18:24 ICA wrote:
I actually like all the changes (I guess, have to play though to get a feeling for what they really do) except the neural change. Targeting massive units was the only way to make neural effective/ efficient. I don't think that there will be any use for this spell now since it is worth more to build a own attacking unit now.
It still lets you turn some of your opponents units against him, basically making your army bigger and your opponents smaller. It also still works on tanks (if you can somehow get one), immortals, void rays etc.
On September 15 2011 06:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
I gave up SC2 yesterday due to the incoming NP nerf.
Went and picked up Space Marine after work on Monday and I'll just keep playing whatever new game comes out.
I wish I could say the past year of SC2 was good... but honestly it was all in hopes that SC2 WOULD be good soon...
The fact that the NP change is even on the PTR blatantly shows that Blizzard has no clue what they're doing with Zerg, so I'll just give it up now... Zerg isn't going to get better.
I won't say I don't have time to play a broken game. I have, and will continue to play games that have obvious balance issues. But I don't need to stick to one aging RTS game that the developers are taking in the wrong direction.
I'll look back in a few months, and in that time I hope Blizzard can figure out what they want to do with the game. Otherwise, I'll probably come back for a few weeks at the upcoming expansions then move on.
You are going to quit because Blizzard is using the PTR to test something? That is sort of the point of having a PTR. The infestor is very strong right now, I see no harm is playing around with some possible changes. This isn't a live patch.
|
Neural Parasite Hive, hows that?
|
Blizzard is using the PTR to test something that doesn't need to be tested.
Anybody can tell you it's a bad idea.
The simple fact that Blizzard is THINKING about it to the point of putting it on the PTR with the current specs speaks volumes and says my time is better spent ripping people apart with chainswords than continuing to bash my head into the brick wall that is Zerg.
|
On September 15 2011 06:19 Jermstuddog wrote:
Anybody can tell you it's a bad idea.
I respectfully disagree. I think it is worth looking into whether or not an ability that can turn another player's own 300/200 unit against him being on a readily accessible and already versatile unit might be a bit too much. If Zerg cannot win without it then the patch simply will not go live.
The simple fact that Blizzard is THINKING about it to the point of putting it on the PTR with the current specs speaks volumes and says my time is better spent ripping people apart with chainswords than continuing to bash my head into the brick wall that is Zerg.
I really don't feel that Zerg is that un winnable at the moment.
|
On September 15 2011 06:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
I gave up SC2 yesterday due to the incoming NP nerf.
Are you so bad that without NP you can't beat anyone, or so good that losing NP will cost you a lot of tournament winnings?
If you can play a fair game (i.e., find an opponent with a roughly 50% chance of winning) on B-Net without NP, then your reasoning makes no sense.
|
On September 15 2011 06:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
I gave up SC2 yesterday due to the incoming NP nerf.
Went and picked up Space Marine after work on Monday and I'll just keep playing whatever new game comes out.
I wish I could say the past year of SC2 was good... but honestly it was all in hopes that SC2 WOULD be good soon...
The fact that the NP change is even on the PTR blatantly shows that Blizzard has no clue what they're doing with Zerg, so I'll just give it up now... Zerg isn't going to get better.
I won't say I don't have time to play a broken game. I have, and will continue to play games that have obvious balance issues. But I don't need to stick to one aging RTS game that the developers are taking in the wrong direction.
I'll look back in a few months, and in that time I hope Blizzard can figure out what they want to do with the game. Otherwise, I'll probably come back for a few weeks at the upcoming expansions then move on.
Haha really... good thing you didn't play Protoss during the KA nerf. Your brain would have melted out of your ears.
|
Zerg is probably in better shape on the live server than they have ever been in the history of SC2 since release, and it's still a bitch to play.
I was all for the changes in the PTR, I even had the attitude of "Hell, throw in a change to the fungal root, make it 75% snare and this would be a perfect patch!"
Then this abomination of a change came about.
Personally, my favorite thing about gaming is watching the developers make a good game into a great game. Seeing the little balance changes come about. Watching the little things in the game that don't make much sense get smoothed over and go away as time goes on. That is a very enjoyable thing to me.
But this shit is just silly...
They didn't remove NP.
They didn't make it cost more energy.
They didn't reduce the range.
They left the spell as is, except now it can't target 90% of the units you want to target.
WTF?
Seriously?
Let's make it so that Medivac's can no longer heal or transport Marines and Marauders.
Let's make it so Force Field only prevents YOUR units from moving through the designated area.
Leave those abilities in game, because we like them... just remove the part of it that makes it useful.
fail design = time to move on.
|
why waste time with balance patches! just replace everything with bw units and call it a day!!
:3
|
On September 15 2011 06:10 dave333 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 06:04 Toadvine wrote:On September 15 2011 05:55 dave333 wrote:On September 14 2011 23:06 Toadvine wrote:On September 14 2011 21:20 Crescend1 wrote:Infestor has 2 uses, 1 spell is against mass of regular units, 2nd spell is against single high tech units (kind of hero units). Making neural unable to target massive, basically makes whole spell miss its point. It's like storm damaged 1 unit that you cast spell on. Pretty dumb, wouldn't it be?  As zerg, i really dont see viable counter to collosi, except broodlords now, and u cant get broodlords in time.if protoss sees infestors, make 1-2 robos with mass collosi, and zerg cant defend it if done properly (i mean timing of 3-4 collosi, or even 6 with double robo). This leaves zerg with corruoptors countering collossi, roaches to fight main army, and army is stuck once again in roach corruptor, with famous corruptors overmaking into mass blink stalker into zerg losing. But yeah, I'm sure suddenly protosses will be winning tournaments very often, together with terrans;) Masters' Zergs on the ladder will lose and cry about imbalance. The actual good Zergs in their respective scenes (Nestea, Losira, Coca on KR; Ret, Stephano and Nerchio on EU, etc.) will continue crushing Protoss, because their wins don't have that much to do with Infestors, which they don't even use that much (well, Stephano uses them a lot nowadays, but he used to win zvp just fine without them). A Zerg with a strong knowledge of Protoss timings and good mechanics will still win just through sheer force of their macro. Losira will just take his fast third, defend any shenanigans, and then win with mass muta, he don't need infestors for anything. I'm not saying the nerf is a good idea, it's just another shitty bandaid blizzard likes so much, but it won't make ZvP significantly less Zerg favored on the highest level. I was thinking this too, but it's also the actual threat of infestors that is significant. When Nestea went undefeated at GSL, he would use infestors maybe only once per series, but it did give him an option, and he used it as a transition tech (ling infestor into roaches). This basically removes the threat of infestors when protoss goes collossus, which very much changes how a protoss scouts/reacts. I usually don't go infestors either (masters zerg), but having the option is nice and I'm sure it's something the protoss looks out for and needs to scout for before committing to some tech. Yeah, but the good Korean Zergs had great ZvP winrates even before the Infestor buff. The buff pushed them from dominating to nigh-invincible. Besides, as is, Protoss can pretty much Robo blindly, because you need either Robo or Blink to take your third, and Blink loses terribly to Ling/Infestor. I guess it will be fine if it pushes back Infestor tech to be about the same timing as HTs. Or they can just buff HTs and kill two birds with one stone, but I guess David Kim is still under the impression that Warp Prism shenanigans will make Ghost vs HT balanced. I see what you mean, and I agree this isn't the worst thing in the ZvP matchup. I've always viewed infestors as a bit of a crutch in ZvP, because protoss players find them hard to deal with so your macro/droning didnt have to be top notch. However, it makes ZvT against mech much more difficult. It opens up the strongest thor hellion timing there is, where you have a pretty critical mass thor/hellion ball that melts magic box mutas, roaches, lings, etc. and before brood lords come out.
Hey, you don't have to convince me the NP nerf is stupid, cause it is. My point was that it's not going to make ZvP unwinnable, and at the highest level it will likely continue to be Zerg favored.
To be honest, I can't understand why Blizzard insists on balancing through nerfing and removing stuff. Why not buff and add instead? Buff Phoenix or HTs instead of nerfing Infestors. It would make the game so much better.
On September 15 2011 06:33 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 06:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
I gave up SC2 yesterday due to the incoming NP nerf.
Went and picked up Space Marine after work on Monday and I'll just keep playing whatever new game comes out.
I wish I could say the past year of SC2 was good... but honestly it was all in hopes that SC2 WOULD be good soon...
The fact that the NP change is even on the PTR blatantly shows that Blizzard has no clue what they're doing with Zerg, so I'll just give it up now... Zerg isn't going to get better.
I won't say I don't have time to play a broken game. I have, and will continue to play games that have obvious balance issues. But I don't need to stick to one aging RTS game that the developers are taking in the wrong direction.
I'll look back in a few months, and in that time I hope Blizzard can figure out what they want to do with the game. Otherwise, I'll probably come back for a few weeks at the upcoming expansions then move on. Haha really... good thing you didn't play Protoss during the KA nerf. Your brain would have melted out of your ears.
I know, right? Or the Flux Vanes removal, still can't wrap my head around that one. At least they're not removing NP because mass Infestor is too good in team games.
|
Don't think about roach/infestor/corruptor ?
Roach/infestor/Corruptor is impossible to afford on 2 bases...
Yeah, but the good Korean Zergs had great ZvP winrates even before the Infestor buff. The buff pushed them from dominating to nigh-invincible.
Can you give me a source for this? I don't mean to be an ass, but I doubt this is true. If you watch the GSL games, you could always explain Protoss losses (4 gate fail, stargate fail, dt fail, ogsinca fail...). But it doesn't change that Protoss end-game is just near impossible for Zerg, and was impossible before the infestor buff. There's a great VOD where Idra goes in length to show how to play ZvP, and there's literally no answer to colossi.
http://blip.tv/learn-from-the-pros-with-mr-b/12-weeks-with-the-pros-zvp-mid-term-with-idra-4791385
I really don't agree with the idea that mech will be harder to deal with because of the NP change. Nestea smashed Goody in the TSL on Shakuras (yes, im aware he lost the series) without using NP. You can't possibly get NP in time for 2 base pushes, and the mass siege tanks behind mech is going to crush any attempt to put forward infestors. Mutas or mass roach is the way to go against mech.
|
On September 15 2011 06:26 MattyClutch wrote:
I think it is worth looking into whether or not an ability that can turn another player's own 300/200 unit against him being on a readily accessible and already versatile unit might be a bit too much.
And if you really want to talk about NP on Colossi being too powerful, maybe we should look at the unit being targeted. For 9 of the 12 months the game has been released, Colossi have shat all over everything Zerg has on the ground. I still lose games to Colossus death-balls in these OP days of the Infestor.
You complain about a 100/150 unit turning a badly positioned 300/200 unit against you, but that same 300/200 unit can kill an infinite amount of EVERYTHING I have on the ground when used properly.
It's funny that Protoss thinks the OP part of NP'd Colossi is the NP, not the Colossi...
Colossus is a fine unit, Zerg just needs to L2P right?
|
On September 15 2011 06:35 Jermstuddog wrote:
Zerg is probably in better shape on the live server than they have ever been in the history of SC2 since release, and it's still a bitch to play.
I was all for the changes in the PTR, I even had the attitude of "Hell, throw in a change to the fungal root, make it 75% snare and this would be a perfect patch!"
Then this abomination of a change came about.
Personally, my favorite thing about gaming is watching the developers make a good game into a great game. Seeing the little balance changes come about. Watching the little things in the game that don't make much sense get smoothed over and go away as time goes on. That is a very enjoyable thing to me.
But this shit is just silly...
They didn't remove NP.
They didn't make it cost more energy.
They didn't reduce the range.
They left the spell as is, except now it can't target 90% of the units you want to target.
WTF?
Seriously?
Let's make it so that Medivac's can no longer heal or transport Marines and Marauders.
Let's make it so Force Field only prevents YOUR units from moving through the designated area.
Leave those abilities in game, because we like them... just remove the part of it that makes it useful.
fail design = time to move on.
CYA next week
|
NP isn't going to be useless, it just makes it so infestors aren't such a 1 unit kills all. Although with not too many other solutions for Mass units I think with the addition of another change NP would be fine. Idra used it vs MC to take his Immortals, so it isn't like it is completely taken out of the game.
The thing that made NP so abusive is the fact that once it was on there was no turning it off unless you kill the infestor. If they made it so EMP/FB cancelled the effect I would be fine with them controlling massive units. Or having it cost 75 or something but it draining 10 energy per second for massive units, and non massive standard 10 seconds or something. The numbers aren't meant to be exact.
If the change does stand, then they will either need to add a new unit or maybe just take a look at the hydralisk, although it is already the best zerg unit and too versatile in all the matchups I really don't know what they could do with it.
NP nerf really isn't the end of the world as the nerf doesn't seem to be acting upon the fact that it is overpowered but the fact that blizzard simply doesn't like the way it is working. Reapers went from really good to very situational, this wasn't a nerf because they wanted to take it out of the game. They nerfed it because it was not working as intended, or working a little too well.
Honestly I think the next change I would make if terran ever needed a small buff, would be to increase the radius of the missile attacking air, magic boxing is a little too efficient and changing it wouldn't hurt that much. When magic boxing increasing the thor from hitting 1 muta to 2-3 would be a much better change and would punish zerg for grouping up a lot more when harassing. But like I said, they would need to buff the other races first to make it so thors deserve this change to make them work as intended.
|
On September 15 2011 06:41 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 06:26 MattyClutch wrote:
I think it is worth looking into whether or not an ability that can turn another player's own 300/200 unit against him being on a readily accessible and already versatile unit might be a bit too much. And if you really want to talk about NP on Colossi being too powerful, maybe we should look at the unit being targeted. For 9 of the 12 months the game has been released, Colossi have shat all over everything Zerg has on the ground. I still lose games to Colossus death-balls in these OP days of the Infestor. You complain about a 100/150 unit turning a badly positioned 300/200 unit against you, but that same 300/200 unit can kill an infinite amount of EVERYTHING I have on the ground when used properly. It's funny that Protoss thinks the OP part of NP'd Colossi is the NP, not the Colossi... Colossus is a fine unit, Zerg just needs to L2P right?
Colossus just aren't right yet, siege tanks that can move sound better imo. Joking aside mutas/corruptors hard counter colossi which is why blizzard seem to think they are fine. Colossus need something changed about them, but I have to agree that NP just doesn't seem quite right either. I would rather have seen a change to NP costing more or being more easily cancelled via EMP/FB but maybe blizzard doesn't want the infestor to be the end all be all unit it is at the moment.
|
On September 15 2011 06:41 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 06:26 MattyClutch wrote:
I think it is worth looking into whether or not an ability that can turn another player's own 300/200 unit against him being on a readily accessible and already versatile unit might be a bit too much. And if you really want to talk about NP on Colossi being too powerful, maybe we should look at the unit being targeted. For 9 of the 12 months the game has been released, Colossi have shat all over everything Zerg has on the ground. I still lose games to Colossus death-balls in these OP days of the Infestor. You complain about a 100/150 unit turning a badly positioned 300/200 unit against you, but that same 300/200 unit can kill an infinite amount of EVERYTHING I have on the ground when used properly. It's funny that Protoss thinks the OP part of NP'd Colossi is the NP, not the Colossi... Colossus is a fine unit, Zerg just needs to L2P right?
I used the Colossus as an example because of its cost, not its power. If 2 infestors could not just remove, but actually turn against me 600/400 of my army my questioning maybe thats too much for an already versatile unit would still be valid.
|
On September 15 2011 06:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
I gave up SC2 yesterday due to the incoming NP nerf.
Went and picked up Space Marine after work on Monday and I'll just keep playing whatever new game comes out.
I wish I could say the past year of SC2 was good... but honestly it was all in hopes that SC2 WOULD be good soon...
The fact that the NP change is even on the PTR blatantly shows that Blizzard has no clue what they're doing with Zerg, so I'll just give it up now... Zerg isn't going to get better.
I won't say I don't have time to play a broken game. I have, and will continue to play games that have obvious balance issues. But I don't need to stick to one aging RTS game that the developers are taking in the wrong direction.
I'll look back in a few months, and in that time I hope Blizzard can figure out what they want to do with the game. Otherwise, I'll probably come back for a few weeks at the upcoming expansions then move on.
You're overreacting. If this NP change even goes live, infestors will still be quite good, they just won't be COUNTERS EVERYTHING good.
|
On September 15 2011 06:49 Trealador wrote:
[Blizzard will have to] take a look at the hydralisk, although it is already the best zerg unit and too versatile in all the matchups I really don't know what they could do with it.
lol
|
I think we found the root of the problem, its that the colossus is too strong.
|
On September 15 2011 06:56 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 06:49 Trealador wrote:
[Blizzard will have to] take a look at the hydralisk, although it is already the best zerg unit and too versatile in all the matchups I really don't know what they could do with it.
lol
hydras the best zerg unit ? really ? lol that there is a good one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
