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Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 412

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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne

There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 22:01:41
September 14 2011 21:59 GMT
#8221
On September 15 2011 06:49 Trealador wrote:
NP isn't going to be useless, it just makes it so infestors aren't such a 1 unit kills all. Although with not too many other solutions for Mass units I think with the addition of another change NP would be fine. Idra used it vs MC to take his Immortals, so it isn't like it is completely taken out of the game.

The thing that made NP so abusive is the fact that once it was on there was no turning it off unless you kill the infestor. If they made it so EMP/FB cancelled the effect I would be fine with them controlling massive units. Or having it cost 75 or something but it draining 10 energy per second for massive units, and non massive standard 10 seconds or something. The numbers aren't meant to be exact.

If the change does stand, then they will either need to add a new unit or maybe just take a look at the hydralisk, although it is already the best zerg unit and too versatile in all the matchups I really don't know what they could do with it.

NP nerf really isn't the end of the world as the nerf doesn't seem to be acting upon the fact that it is overpowered but the fact that blizzard simply doesn't like the way it is working. Reapers went from really good to very situational, this wasn't a nerf because they wanted to take it out of the game. They nerfed it because it was not working as intended, or working a little too well.

Honestly I think the next change I would make if terran ever needed a small buff, would be to increase the radius of the missile attacking air, magic boxing is a little too efficient and changing it wouldn't hurt that much. When magic boxing increasing the thor from hitting 1 muta to 2-3 would be a much better change and would punish zerg for grouping up a lot more when harassing. But like I said, they would need to buff the other races first to make it so thors deserve this change to make them work as intended.


Tbh i don't think the neural change will make it through, but I must politely disagree. The big apeal of NP was taking aways those Power units from your enemy, I agree in that the Infestors may be too versatile but overall I have never felt(I play random) that it was something that was too hard to beat as P. I do agree that even in that case its not really the end of the world.

And yeah I feel that both Z and P needs a little more buffs but nothing too radical. And yeah I agree in that the Thor splash damage should be changed too, but IMHO only after the other 2 races have been tweaked a little.

As far as the reaper goes, I still think Nitro packs need to make a comeback at T1, the reaper still took a long time to build and a lot of gas to really be something that would break the game as it is now. Meh maybe it could, but I think the reaper nerfs were too severe.

Edit: I seem to have missed your Hydra comment,I[ll have to disagree on that too. I don't think Hydras are as bad as people say they are, but they are not nearly as how you described them
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
Nancial
Profile Joined July 2011
197 Posts
September 14 2011 22:01 GMT
#8222
What's the big fuckin deal ?
Counter colossus with corrupters instead of infestors now.
Counter tank play by ultralisks now.
Toadvine
Profile Joined November 2010
Poland2234 Posts
September 14 2011 22:01 GMT
#8223
On September 15 2011 06:41 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Don't think about roach/infestor/corruptor ?


Roach/infestor/Corruptor is impossible to afford on 2 bases...

Show nested quote +
Yeah, but the good Korean Zergs had great ZvP winrates even before the Infestor buff. The buff pushed them from dominating to nigh-invincible.


Can you give me a source for this? I don't mean to be an ass, but I doubt this is true. If you watch the GSL games, you could always explain Protoss losses (4 gate fail, stargate fail, dt fail, ogsinca fail...). But it doesn't change that Protoss end-game is just near impossible for Zerg, and was impossible before the infestor buff. There's a great VOD where Idra goes in length to show how to play ZvP, and there's literally no answer to colossi.

http://blip.tv/learn-from-the-pros-with-mr-b/12-weeks-with-the-pros-zvp-mid-term-with-idra-4791385

I really don't agree with the idea that mech will be harder to deal with because of the NP change. Nestea smashed Goody in the TSL on Shakuras (yes, im aware he lost the series) without using NP. You can't possibly get NP in time for 2 base pushes, and the mass siege tanks behind mech is going to crush any attempt to put forward infestors. Mutas or mass roach is the way to go against mech.


Source? Open up TLPD and look at Nestea's or Losira's ZvP record.

And frankly, Idra is terrible at ZvP. He was terrible at ZvP even when he was really good at his other matchups, not to speak of his current state. Ask someone like MorroW if ZvP lategame is imbalanced, and he'll laugh in your face, seeing as he can relatively easily 10-1 someone like Puzzle. And MorroW was a ZvP god even before Infestors became popular.

On September 15 2011 06:41 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 06:26 MattyClutch wrote:
I think it is worth looking into whether or not an ability that can turn another player's own 300/200 unit against him being on a readily accessible and already versatile unit might be a bit too much.


And if you really want to talk about NP on Colossi being too powerful, maybe we should look at the unit being targeted. For 9 of the 12 months the game has been released, Colossi have shat all over everything Zerg has on the ground. I still lose games to Colossus death-balls in these OP days of the Infestor.

You complain about a 100/150 unit turning a badly positioned 300/200 unit against you, but that same 300/200 unit can kill an infinite amount of EVERYTHING I have on the ground when used properly.

It's funny that Protoss thinks the OP part of NP'd Colossi is the NP, not the Colossi...

Colossus is a fine unit, Zerg just needs to L2P right?


Awww man, you had this awesome rant about Blizzard being shit at designing things, and now you're turning it into some retro Colossus QQ. I lose games to Roach/Hydra/Corruptor with Blink Stalker/Colossus, but that doesn't mean Roach op, just means I play fucking terrible sometimes.
"There are always some Eskimos ready to instruct the Congolese on how to cope with heat waves." - S.J.Lec
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
September 14 2011 22:02 GMT
#8224
On September 15 2011 06:56 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 06:49 Trealador wrote:
[Blizzard will have to] take a look at the hydralisk, although it is already the best zerg unit and too versatile in all the matchups I really don't know what they could do with it.


lol


for someone who has claimed to have quit SC2 not to look back for a couple months, you sure do seem to post a lot in a patch discussion thread of a game you "quit"
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 22:03:25
September 14 2011 22:02 GMT
#8225
On September 15 2011 06:56 Fleebenworth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 06:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
I gave up SC2 yesterday due to the incoming NP nerf.

Went and picked up Space Marine after work on Monday and I'll just keep playing whatever new game comes out.

I wish I could say the past year of SC2 was good... but honestly it was all in hopes that SC2 WOULD be good soon...

The fact that the NP change is even on the PTR blatantly shows that Blizzard has no clue what they're doing with Zerg, so I'll just give it up now... Zerg isn't going to get better.

I won't say I don't have time to play a broken game. I have, and will continue to play games that have obvious balance issues. But I don't need to stick to one aging RTS game that the developers are taking in the wrong direction.

I'll look back in a few months, and in that time I hope Blizzard can figure out what they want to do with the game. Otherwise, I'll probably come back for a few weeks at the upcoming expansions then move on.


You're overreacting. If this NP change even goes live, infestors will still be quite good, they just won't be COUNTERS EVERYTHING good.


I read your statement as "Zerg can't have good units, that's not fair!"

Marines counter everything and don't require energy to do so, this is the base unit of the race we're talking about...

Stalkers counter everything except Marines and Marauders, which they hold their own against with other abilities (Blink/Force Field).

Infestors come out far later than both of those units, their ability to counter everything is dependent on how much energy they have, and they eat up all of your gas to keep up on production.

Infestors sound pretty imba to me.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Noro
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada991 Posts
September 14 2011 22:03 GMT
#8226
Lol, i love all the kids that started playing zerg just because the infestor got popular, and now they're crying cause of a nerf. If you seriously think zerg is "broken" or whatever without NP, you shouldn't be playing this game. If you can't actually think of another way to play, this isn't the game for you.
Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me.
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 22:07:04
September 14 2011 22:04 GMT
#8227
On September 15 2011 07:02 -orb- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 06:56 Jermstuddog wrote:
On September 15 2011 06:49 Trealador wrote:
[Blizzard will have to] take a look at the hydralisk, although it is already the best zerg unit and too versatile in all the matchups I really don't know what they could do with it.


lol


for someone who has claimed to have quit SC2 not to look back for a couple months, you sure do seem to post a lot in a patch discussion thread of a game you "quit"


Just stirring the pot

I only decided to quit today, so I'll have to be changing my habits over the next few days.

@Toadvine

I didn't start the Colossus ranting, it was a response to somebody trying to claim NP is OP because you can control Colossi.

NP allows a very expensive unit to take control of a single unit for 15 whole in-game seconds at the cost of 100 energy.

It's one of those spells that are so severely limited, I have to question how anybody can call it OP when the entire OPness of the spell relies upon YOU getting OP bullshit in the first place.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Toadvine
Profile Joined November 2010
Poland2234 Posts
September 14 2011 22:06 GMT
#8228
On September 15 2011 07:02 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 06:56 Fleebenworth wrote:
On September 15 2011 06:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
I gave up SC2 yesterday due to the incoming NP nerf.

Went and picked up Space Marine after work on Monday and I'll just keep playing whatever new game comes out.

I wish I could say the past year of SC2 was good... but honestly it was all in hopes that SC2 WOULD be good soon...

The fact that the NP change is even on the PTR blatantly shows that Blizzard has no clue what they're doing with Zerg, so I'll just give it up now... Zerg isn't going to get better.

I won't say I don't have time to play a broken game. I have, and will continue to play games that have obvious balance issues. But I don't need to stick to one aging RTS game that the developers are taking in the wrong direction.

I'll look back in a few months, and in that time I hope Blizzard can figure out what they want to do with the game. Otherwise, I'll probably come back for a few weeks at the upcoming expansions then move on.


You're overreacting. If this NP change even goes live, infestors will still be quite good, they just won't be COUNTERS EVERYTHING good.


I read your statement as "Zerg can't have good units, that's not fair!"

Marines counter everything and don't require energy to do so, this is the base unit of the race we're talking about...

Stalkers counter everything except Marines and Marauders, which they hold their own against with other abilities (Blink/Force Field).

Infestors come out far later than both of those units, their ability to counter everything is dependent on how much energy they have, and they eat up all of your gas to keep up on production.

Infestors sound pretty imba to me.


Oh come on now... That's about as accurate as Hydras being the best Zerg unit.
"There are always some Eskimos ready to instruct the Congolese on how to cope with heat waves." - S.J.Lec
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
September 14 2011 22:08 GMT
#8229
You've never heard of 7-gate +2 Blink Stalker pushes?

Or considered the fact that Protoss will go to the strategy completely blind?

Sounds like a pretty damn good unit to me.

I'm not calling them imba, they are expensive as shit for what they do.

But as a unit, they're pretty damn good.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
MMello
Profile Joined October 2010
279 Posts
September 14 2011 22:08 GMT
#8230
Seems like this will be a fun patch.. If only they could look into how effective the stim ability is early PvT or maybe orbital timings.
٩(̾●̮̮̃̾•̃̾)۶ __̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__ <- FXO Gaming house
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
September 14 2011 22:10 GMT
#8231
On September 15 2011 07:02 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 06:56 Fleebenworth wrote:
On September 15 2011 06:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
I gave up SC2 yesterday due to the incoming NP nerf.

Went and picked up Space Marine after work on Monday and I'll just keep playing whatever new game comes out.

I wish I could say the past year of SC2 was good... but honestly it was all in hopes that SC2 WOULD be good soon...

The fact that the NP change is even on the PTR blatantly shows that Blizzard has no clue what they're doing with Zerg, so I'll just give it up now... Zerg isn't going to get better.

I won't say I don't have time to play a broken game. I have, and will continue to play games that have obvious balance issues. But I don't need to stick to one aging RTS game that the developers are taking in the wrong direction.

I'll look back in a few months, and in that time I hope Blizzard can figure out what they want to do with the game. Otherwise, I'll probably come back for a few weeks at the upcoming expansions then move on.


You're overreacting. If this NP change even goes live, infestors will still be quite good, they just won't be COUNTERS EVERYTHING good.


I read your statement as "Zerg can't have good units, that's not fair!"

Marines counter everything and don't require energy to do so, this is the base unit of the race we're talking about...

Stalkers counter everything except Marines and Marauders, which they hold their own against with other abilities (Blink/Force Field).

Infestors come out far later than both of those units, their ability to counter everything is dependent on how much energy they have, and they eat up all of your gas to keep up on production.

Infestors sound pretty imba to me.


Marines and stalkers most certainly do not counter everything.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Soulish
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1403 Posts
September 14 2011 22:10 GMT
#8232
On September 15 2011 07:01 Nancial wrote:
What's the big fuckin deal ?
Counter colossus with corrupters instead of infestors now.
Counter tank play by ultralisks now.

I can tell you don't play zerg
me all in, he drone drone drone, me win
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 22:12:43
September 14 2011 22:11 GMT
#8233
On September 15 2011 07:10 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 07:02 Jermstuddog wrote:
On September 15 2011 06:56 Fleebenworth wrote:
On September 15 2011 06:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
I gave up SC2 yesterday due to the incoming NP nerf.

Went and picked up Space Marine after work on Monday and I'll just keep playing whatever new game comes out.

I wish I could say the past year of SC2 was good... but honestly it was all in hopes that SC2 WOULD be good soon...

The fact that the NP change is even on the PTR blatantly shows that Blizzard has no clue what they're doing with Zerg, so I'll just give it up now... Zerg isn't going to get better.

I won't say I don't have time to play a broken game. I have, and will continue to play games that have obvious balance issues. But I don't need to stick to one aging RTS game that the developers are taking in the wrong direction.

I'll look back in a few months, and in that time I hope Blizzard can figure out what they want to do with the game. Otherwise, I'll probably come back for a few weeks at the upcoming expansions then move on.


You're overreacting. If this NP change even goes live, infestors will still be quite good, they just won't be COUNTERS EVERYTHING good.


I read your statement as "Zerg can't have good units, that's not fair!"

Marines counter everything and don't require energy to do so, this is the base unit of the race we're talking about...

Stalkers counter everything except Marines and Marauders, which they hold their own against with other abilities (Blink/Force Field).

Infestors come out far later than both of those units, their ability to counter everything is dependent on how much energy they have, and they eat up all of your gas to keep up on production.

Infestors sound pretty imba to me.


Marines and stalkers most certainly do not counter everything.


They do about as good a job at countering everything as Infestors do though... that's the point.

Both act as a "go-to" unit for their respective races.

What is the go-to unit for Zerg if not the Infestor?

Is Zerg not allowed to have good units?
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Toadvine
Profile Joined November 2010
Poland2234 Posts
September 14 2011 22:11 GMT
#8234
On September 15 2011 07:08 Jermstuddog wrote:
You've never heard of 7-gate +2 Blink Stalker pushes?

Or considered the fact that Protoss will go to the strategy completely blind?

Sounds like a pretty damn good unit to me.

I'm not calling them imba, they are expensive as shit for what they do.

But as a unit, they're pretty damn good.


That's not really Stalkers being good, it's more like Zerg being shit and not having any core units with good range. They're pretty horrible against Terran. In fact, a lot of PvT is about making as few Stalkers as possible.

Oh well, it doesn't really matter since 7 gate Blink loses terribly to Ling/Infestor.
"There are always some Eskimos ready to instruct the Congolese on how to cope with heat waves." - S.J.Lec
Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 22:15:40
September 14 2011 22:13 GMT
#8235
On September 15 2011 07:04 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 07:02 -orb- wrote:
On September 15 2011 06:56 Jermstuddog wrote:
On September 15 2011 06:49 Trealador wrote:
[Blizzard will have to] take a look at the hydralisk, although it is already the best zerg unit and too versatile in all the matchups I really don't know what they could do with it.


lol


for someone who has claimed to have quit SC2 not to look back for a couple months, you sure do seem to post a lot in a patch discussion thread of a game you "quit"


Just stirring the pot

I only decided to quit today, so I'll have to be changing my habits over the next few days.

@Toadvine

I didn't start the Colossus ranting, it was a response to somebody trying to claim NP is OP because you can control Colossi.

NP allows a very expensive unit to take control of a single unit for 15 whole in-game seconds at the cost of 100 energy.

It's one of those spells that are so severely limited, I have to question how anybody can call it OP when the entire OPness of the spell relies upon YOU getting OP bullshit in the first place.


This sounds a mighty damn accurate. Though changing your habits will be difficult. I quit last christmas and i still browse Teamliquid. Cross your fingers for HOTS or LOTV expansions to fix the race.

The best part as a Zerg player You just can`t ever switch races properly. Its impossible-.

On September 15 2011 07:11 Toadvine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 07:08 Jermstuddog wrote:
You've never heard of 7-gate +2 Blink Stalker pushes?

Or considered the fact that Protoss will go to the strategy completely blind?

Sounds like a pretty damn good unit to me.

I'm not calling them imba, they are expensive as shit for what they do.

But as a unit, they're pretty damn good.


That's not really Stalkers being good, it's more like Zerg being shit and not having any core units with good range. They're pretty horrible against Terran. In fact, a lot of PvT is about making as few Stalkers as possible.

Oh well, it doesn't really matter since 7 gate Blink loses terribly to Ling/Infestor.


Just make zealots and attack before the infestors come out.
"Mudkip"
Toadvine
Profile Joined November 2010
Poland2234 Posts
September 14 2011 22:18 GMT
#8236
On September 15 2011 07:13 Madkipz wrote:
Just make zealots and attack before the infestors come out.


If I'm going to "attack" (aka Warpgate all-in) before they're out, I won't have time or money to scout what the Zerg is actually doing. The infestors are out in time for pretty much every Protoss 2 base timing, especially since you can delay the push with Lings.
"There are always some Eskimos ready to instruct the Congolese on how to cope with heat waves." - S.J.Lec
Ventor
Profile Joined February 2011
United States336 Posts
September 14 2011 22:19 GMT
#8237
On September 15 2011 06:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
I gave up SC2 yesterday due to the incoming NP nerf.

Went and picked up Space Marine after work on Monday and I'll just keep playing whatever new game comes out.

I wish I could say the past year of SC2 was good... but honestly it was all in hopes that SC2 WOULD be good soon...

The fact that the NP change is even on the PTR blatantly shows that Blizzard has no clue what they're doing with Zerg, so I'll just give it up now... Zerg isn't going to get better.

I won't say I don't have time to play a broken game. I have, and will continue to play games that have obvious balance issues. But I don't need to stick to one aging RTS game that the developers are taking in the wrong direction.

I'll look back in a few months, and in that time I hope Blizzard can figure out what they want to do with the game. Otherwise, I'll probably come back for a few weeks at the upcoming expansions then move on.


Sc2 doesn't need whining people like yourseld anyway.

P.s. no one cares that you are quitting due to a ptr test.
oGsMc - EGHuK - White-Ra - SlayerSBoxeR - STBomber Fighting!~
NoobieOne
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1183 Posts
September 14 2011 22:20 GMT
#8238
On September 15 2011 07:03 AIRwar wrote:
Lol, i love all the kids that started playing zerg just because the infestor got popular, and now they're crying cause of a nerf. If you seriously think zerg is "broken" or whatever without NP, you shouldn't be playing this game. If you can't actually think of another way to play, this isn't the game for you.


Not to mention the almost a year where zergs only got NP as a joke when they were really ahead
Ventor
Profile Joined February 2011
United States336 Posts
September 14 2011 22:24 GMT
#8239
On September 15 2011 07:04 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 07:02 -orb- wrote:
On September 15 2011 06:56 Jermstuddog wrote:
On September 15 2011 06:49 Trealador wrote:
[Blizzard will have to] take a look at the hydralisk, although it is already the best zerg unit and too versatile in all the matchups I really don't know what they could do with it.


lol


for someone who has claimed to have quit SC2 not to look back for a couple months, you sure do seem to post a lot in a patch discussion thread of a game you "quit"


Just stirring the pot

I only decided to quit today, so I'll have to be changing my habits over the next few days.

@Toadvine

I didn't start the Colossus ranting, it was a response to somebody trying to claim NP is OP because you can control Colossi.

NP allows a very expensive unit to take control of a single unit for 15 whole in-game seconds at the cost of 100 energy.


It's one of those spells that are so severely limited, I have to question how anybody can call it OP when the entire OPness of the spell relies upon YOU getting OP bullshit in the first place.


Looks like you will need to build corrupters to counter collos jus like terran need vikings! God forbid you can't make any units you want and win!
oGsMc - EGHuK - White-Ra - SlayerSBoxeR - STBomber Fighting!~
hejakev
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden518 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 22:30:53
September 14 2011 22:30 GMT
#8240
I'm a high-diamond protoss, and I almost never see NP used against me. I think fungal stopping archons is a bigger issue for me than NP on any of my units. Not sure how different it is for people in other leagues.

If anything, I'm worried it's going to bring thors back into TvZ in a big way.
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