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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
Infestor has 2 uses, 1 spell is against mass of regular units, 2nd spell is against single high tech units (kind of hero units). Making neural unable to target massive, basically makes whole spell miss its point. It's like storm damaged 1 unit that you cast spell on. Pretty dumb, wouldn't it be?
As zerg, i really dont see viable counter to collosi, except broodlords now, and u cant get broodlords in time.if protoss sees infestors, make 1-2 robos with mass collosi, and zerg cant defend it if done properly (i mean timing of 3-4 collosi, or even 6 with double robo).
This leaves zerg with corruoptors countering collossi, roaches to fight main army, and army is stuck once again in roach corruptor, with famous corruptors overmaking into mass blink stalker into zerg losing.
But yeah, I'm sure suddenly protosses will be winning tournaments very often, together with terrans;)
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The low cost of Overseers make me happy. Maybe Blizzard is attempting to "revive" it before removing it in HotS
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On September 14 2011 21:20 Crescend1 wrote:Infestor has 2 uses, 1 spell is against mass of regular units, 2nd spell is against single high tech units (kind of hero units). Making neural unable to target massive, basically makes whole spell miss its point. It's like storm damaged 1 unit that you cast spell on. Pretty dumb, wouldn't it be? As zerg, i really dont see viable counter to collosi, except broodlords now, and u cant get broodlords in time.if protoss sees infestors, make 1-2 robos with mass collosi, and zerg cant defend it if done properly (i mean timing of 3-4 collosi, or even 6 with double robo). This leaves zerg with corruoptors countering collossi, roaches to fight main army, and army is stuck once again in roach corruptor, with famous corruptors overmaking into mass blink stalker into zerg losing. But yeah, I'm sure suddenly protosses will be winning tournaments very often, together with terrans;)
Masters' Zergs on the ladder will lose and cry about imbalance. The actual good Zergs in their respective scenes (Nestea, Losira, Coca on KR; Ret, Stephano and Nerchio on EU, etc.) will continue crushing Protoss, because their wins don't have that much to do with Infestors, which they don't even use that much (well, Stephano uses them a lot nowadays, but he used to win zvp just fine without them).
A Zerg with a strong knowledge of Protoss timings and good mechanics will still win just through sheer force of their macro. Losira will just take his fast third, defend any shenanigans, and then win with mass muta, he don't need infestors for anything.
I'm not saying the nerf is a good idea, it's just another shitty bandaid blizzard likes so much, but it won't make ZvP significantly less Zerg favored on the highest level.
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On September 14 2011 18:54 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 07:49 BeeNu wrote:On September 14 2011 06:06 tuho12345 wrote:On September 13 2011 11:18 viralintruder wrote:
So if this goes through (which it is probably going to) we can expect to see:
-More manner Motherships late game cloaking those colossi to laugh at zergs which can't counter both of them without NP or deal enough damage to warrant losing their infestors everytime they FG. Corrupter > Mothership + Colossi. Anti-air units > Corrupter.
-More mass Thors and Thor/repair mid-game pushes versus Z (even though blizzard specifically stated they do not enjoy seeing mass Thors in any match-up).
-Less effective (slightly) Baneling drops to counter P armies.
-Wild turtled terran tech switches to Battlecruisers if the terran can afford it (what is the zerg going to do about it? Marines>Corrupters and Battlecruisers>Zerg).
-More Ultralisk carcasses in a shorter period.
-More direct Warp Prism harass since they're tankier and can withstand a few more Queen attacks.
-More zergs turning to Roachesfor viable armies to fill the void nerfed Infestors created, which leads to more buffed immortals being produced.
-A very small increase in the only ability of the most useless unit in the game (overseer).
-(This is a Z buff) 6pool w/ all drones all ins may be slightly more effective as the drone attacks (which were previously inferior to the other workers) has now been fixed.
I think overall the blizzard team is just throwing out the stupidest-est as fuck ideas and people are trying to rationalize how intelligent they are by using backwards logic. Blizzard isn't taking balance advice from professionals. Blizzard isn't taking suggestions from their player base. Blizzard is making the game easier, less fun, less exciting, more forgiving to terran and protoss, removing the ability for zerg to control what terran or protoss decide to tech to, and removing the power of zerg mid to late game. This isn't a balance whine, it's all true (or going to be true).
But hey, nerf one race into the ground, at least 2/3 (actually, it's more than 2/3) of the game's players will be more than happy to herp-derp into ridiculous wins against equally skilled or better players. Wow, you're so amazing with all that QQ. -Mothership, colossus, anti-air....wow really Protoss can afford that much(Not to mention that Toss can have that big of a army cuz mothership and colossi cost too much supplies) ??? How about mass FG then?? Problem solve right? They have to clump up under mothership to be cloaked, so just keep FG. It could reveal cloak too. -Mass Thor and repair?? What are you talking about? How could Protoss stop this build after the SCV repair fix and not Zerg??? Who would send half of his SCV and doing thing like that in mid game ffs.... -Baneling drop still the same. - Marines>corruptors ? Oh, how about FG marines, or make banelings then? W/o marines now you can make hydras or corruptors easily right? Problem solve. -Ultralisk switching between them and BL is pretty good combo, if you wanna cry like IdrA, I recommend go read his thought on this. -Warprism should be a lil bit tankier. A few more shots is good for it, cuz it's expensive, and it's also encourage Toss to harass more and protect HTs more. Nothing wrong with that. -Zerg qq about no good scouting option, so blizz buff overseer. What else do you want??? how about drop 1 roach in his base and burrow to scout. -The drones patch is fixing the bug, how could drone has more advantage than Toss and Terran in this "6 pools" case? All those changes help the game more interesting. May be it's time for you to learn new strat and counter then. - Its not very hard for a Protoss to afford Colossus, Stalkers, and a Mothership. - Terran doesn't have to send very many, if any SCVs with their Thors vs Zerg. They can just sit back and turtle up till they have a massive number of Thors and other Mech and they will be unstoppable without NP. -TLDR: This guy is either lacks any real applicable knowledge of this game or is just trolling. terran sit back and turtle? do you listen to yourself? go and try a pure mech that sits on his base and turtle. enjoy being 80 foods under when zerg max and pour into your main or 3rd while your immobile thors can't reach any of them fast enough. Or when brood comes out in masses because zerg have 7 bases running with every one of them mining gas, while you're still trying to get that 4th up and still can't put out any pressure whatsoever without fear of getting counter attacked
lol? do you have ANY experience with how Terran mech is played? They have this funny little unit called the Hellion which gives map control and is used to harass..maybe you've read about it in books. But the thing is, this fabled unit apparently is allowed to go out and harass without the Terran actually having to fear being counter attacked because his Thors and Siege Tanks are still sitting around back at base.
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On September 15 2011 00:25 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 18:54 iky43210 wrote:On September 14 2011 07:49 BeeNu wrote:On September 14 2011 06:06 tuho12345 wrote:On September 13 2011 11:18 viralintruder wrote:
So if this goes through (which it is probably going to) we can expect to see:
-More manner Motherships late game cloaking those colossi to laugh at zergs which can't counter both of them without NP or deal enough damage to warrant losing their infestors everytime they FG. Corrupter > Mothership + Colossi. Anti-air units > Corrupter.
-More mass Thors and Thor/repair mid-game pushes versus Z (even though blizzard specifically stated they do not enjoy seeing mass Thors in any match-up).
-Less effective (slightly) Baneling drops to counter P armies.
-Wild turtled terran tech switches to Battlecruisers if the terran can afford it (what is the zerg going to do about it? Marines>Corrupters and Battlecruisers>Zerg).
-More Ultralisk carcasses in a shorter period.
-More direct Warp Prism harass since they're tankier and can withstand a few more Queen attacks.
-More zergs turning to Roachesfor viable armies to fill the void nerfed Infestors created, which leads to more buffed immortals being produced.
-A very small increase in the only ability of the most useless unit in the game (overseer).
-(This is a Z buff) 6pool w/ all drones all ins may be slightly more effective as the drone attacks (which were previously inferior to the other workers) has now been fixed.
I think overall the blizzard team is just throwing out the stupidest-est as fuck ideas and people are trying to rationalize how intelligent they are by using backwards logic. Blizzard isn't taking balance advice from professionals. Blizzard isn't taking suggestions from their player base. Blizzard is making the game easier, less fun, less exciting, more forgiving to terran and protoss, removing the ability for zerg to control what terran or protoss decide to tech to, and removing the power of zerg mid to late game. This isn't a balance whine, it's all true (or going to be true).
But hey, nerf one race into the ground, at least 2/3 (actually, it's more than 2/3) of the game's players will be more than happy to herp-derp into ridiculous wins against equally skilled or better players. Wow, you're so amazing with all that QQ. -Mothership, colossus, anti-air....wow really Protoss can afford that much(Not to mention that Toss can have that big of a army cuz mothership and colossi cost too much supplies) ??? How about mass FG then?? Problem solve right? They have to clump up under mothership to be cloaked, so just keep FG. It could reveal cloak too. -Mass Thor and repair?? What are you talking about? How could Protoss stop this build after the SCV repair fix and not Zerg??? Who would send half of his SCV and doing thing like that in mid game ffs.... -Baneling drop still the same. - Marines>corruptors ? Oh, how about FG marines, or make banelings then? W/o marines now you can make hydras or corruptors easily right? Problem solve. -Ultralisk switching between them and BL is pretty good combo, if you wanna cry like IdrA, I recommend go read his thought on this. -Warprism should be a lil bit tankier. A few more shots is good for it, cuz it's expensive, and it's also encourage Toss to harass more and protect HTs more. Nothing wrong with that. -Zerg qq about no good scouting option, so blizz buff overseer. What else do you want??? how about drop 1 roach in his base and burrow to scout. -The drones patch is fixing the bug, how could drone has more advantage than Toss and Terran in this "6 pools" case? All those changes help the game more interesting. May be it's time for you to learn new strat and counter then. - Its not very hard for a Protoss to afford Colossus, Stalkers, and a Mothership. - Terran doesn't have to send very many, if any SCVs with their Thors vs Zerg. They can just sit back and turtle up till they have a massive number of Thors and other Mech and they will be unstoppable without NP. -TLDR: This guy is either lacks any real applicable knowledge of this game or is just trolling. terran sit back and turtle? do you listen to yourself? go and try a pure mech that sits on his base and turtle. enjoy being 80 foods under when zerg max and pour into your main or 3rd while your immobile thors can't reach any of them fast enough. Or when brood comes out in masses because zerg have 7 bases running with every one of them mining gas, while you're still trying to get that 4th up and still can't put out any pressure whatsoever without fear of getting counter attacked lol? do you have ANY experience with how Terran mech is played? They have this funny little unit called the Hellion which gives map control and is used to harass..maybe you've read about it in books. But the thing is, this fabled unit apparently is allowed to go out and harass without the Terran actually having to fear being counter attacked because his Thors and Siege Tanks are still sitting around back at base.
It sounds like you truly don't understand the weakness in mech terran play.
Hellion is good harass, but if you know he's going thor/hellion route, you don't have to give a crap about them. 3-4 roaches with well placed buildings is enough to fend off any hellion runby, and you can double/triple expand without worry that he'll push anytime soon.
You scout many hellions/factories with no marines, go grab 1 or 2 more expansions. You can pretty much treat hellions as if protoss made phoenixes. Actually, Mech terran ZvT is alot like ZvP, cept easier since you know for sure there will be no early-mid game pushes that may kill you. Feel free to drone up to your heart content
hellions will not be able to deny you from getting that 4th or 5th up. They'll never kill a hatchery. For pure mech terran, if you don't do massive amount of damage with the surprised opening double hellion push, you won't be able to do anymore damage after that point
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Hellion is good harass, but if you know he's going thor/hellion route, you don't have to give a crap about them. 3-4 roaches with well placed buildings is enough to fend off any hellion runby, and you can double/triple expand without worry that he'll push anytime soon.
that means you have to rebuild your entire base at any expansion you want to take? Because there is the place 4 - 7 hellions run in, roast all drones and get out before any roaches (on creep) even get near the now empty expansion.
You scout many hellions/factories with no marines, go grab 1 or 2 more expansions. You can pretty much treat hellions as if protoss made phoenixes.
I can get rid of phoenix by building 2 more queens and 1 - 2 spores. Toss has to invest gas for every phoenix. 700 minerals worth of hellions force additional queens, spinecrawlers, evo chambers (just to block, because you dont have the ressources to double research) AND a significant number of roaches. Just to defend 700 minerals from killing your entire mineral line. and even then - if only 2 or 3 make it somehow through... your drones are toast. End of story.
Just look at goody.... reaper bunker rush, hellion push(7 normal or 3 as drop), double expand (safely!), deathball, win. This style is pretty easy to pull off and his opponents are not "normal joe" but zerg Pros themselfs... losing to the first reaper or to the "easy to defend" hellions.
Everybody knows goodys style. And even pros seem to have problems holding of his BFH. So please stop stating that this pushes are sooooo easy defended.
hellions will not be able to deny you from getting that 4th or 5th up. They'll never kill a hatchery.
they dont need to. I dont have to prevent you from building 7 rax if i killed all your scvs and you got no more minerals to make use of the rax.
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They even said on SOTG that mech plays not gonna be possible for zerg to hold anymore after this, lol.
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I believe this patch won't change the bad direction sc2 is heading towards. I predict 28/32 Terran in the near future.
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I was thinking about this and it seems like this is going to force zerg out of "quick" infestors in zvp or make it really risky.
Right now if you go for quick infestors and toss goes for a colossus timing push you have a reasonable chance of getting NP before he has 3-4 colossus.
After the change without NP the zerg should lose to a 3-4 colossus assuming the protoss positions things correctly, if the zerg has already commited his gas to infestor tech.
So now zerg is forced to get a spire to deal with colossus before he really knows if an attack will be coming or not. Infestors will have to be integrated some time after spire which means 3+ bases first.
So while the nerf seems really small, I believe it will drastically reduce the infestor's place in ZvP because of the dependency on spire tech.
Am I wrong here?
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On September 15 2011 05:11 Treble557 wrote:
They even said on SOTG that mech plays not gonna be possible for zerg to hold anymore after this, lol.
Completely unsurprising with the NP change. If that survives the PTR I won't be able to play zerg anymore. As it stands now it is already enough of a challenge, this is simply ridiculous.
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On September 15 2011 05:35 Treemonkeys wrote:
I was thinking about this and it seems like this is going to force zerg out of "quick" infestors in zvp or make it really risky.
Right now if you go for quick infestors and toss goes for a colossus timing push you have a reasonable chance of getting NP before he has 3-4 colossus.
After the change without NP the zerg should lose to a 3-4 colossus assuming the protoss positions things correctly, if the zerg has already commited his gas to infestor tech.
So now zerg is forced to get a spire to deal with colossus before he really knows if an attack will be coming or not. Infestors will have to be integrated some time after spire which means 3+ bases first.
So while the nerf seems really small, I believe it will drastically reduce the infestor's place in ZvP because of the dependency on spire tech.
Am I wrong here?
If the NP change survives the PTR and goes live, ZvP goes back to what it was before. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor vs. Collo/Warpgate and Zerg gets to sit and hope the Protoss screws up, otherwise Zerg loses every time.
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NP is ok in it's current state imo. However micro-nullifying chain fungals are broken but nothing is done about it. The damage reduction on FG is meh and still doesn't address the main issue of this VERY unforgiving spell.
SC2 is filled with design flaws in all races, these minor fixes and changes won't end the terrible volatile state of the game nor they will bring balance.
Our hopes should lie in the expansion and hope that the designers will have acquired the necessary experience to deliver us an interesting and balanced game like BW.
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On September 15 2011 05:37 ABagOfFritos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 05:11 Treble557 wrote:
They even said on SOTG that mech plays not gonna be possible for zerg to hold anymore after this, lol.
Completely unsurprising with the NP change. If that survives the PTR I won't be able to play zerg anymore. As it stands now it is already enough of a challenge, this is simply ridiculous.
Time to metagame a bit for zerg.
On September 15 2011 05:38 ABagOfFritos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 05:35 Treemonkeys wrote:
I was thinking about this and it seems like this is going to force zerg out of "quick" infestors in zvp or make it really risky.
Right now if you go for quick infestors and toss goes for a colossus timing push you have a reasonable chance of getting NP before he has 3-4 colossus.
After the change without NP the zerg should lose to a 3-4 colossus assuming the protoss positions things correctly, if the zerg has already commited his gas to infestor tech.
So now zerg is forced to get a spire to deal with colossus before he really knows if an attack will be coming or not. Infestors will have to be integrated some time after spire which means 3+ bases first.
So while the nerf seems really small, I believe it will drastically reduce the infestor's place in ZvP because of the dependency on spire tech.
Am I wrong here? If the NP change survives the PTR and goes live, ZvP goes back to what it was before. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor vs. Collo/Warpgate and Zerg gets to sit and hope the Protoss screws up, otherwise Zerg loses every time.
Don't think about roach/infestor/corruptor ?
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On September 15 2011 05:46 kasumimi wrote:
NP is ok in it's current state imo. However micro-nullifying chain fungals are broken but nothing is done about it. The damage reduction on FG is meh and still doesn't address the main issue of this VERY unforgiving spell.
SC2 is filled with design flaws in all races, these minor fixes and changes won't end the terrible volatile state of the game nor they will bring balance.
Our hopes should lie in the expansion and hope that the designers will have acquired the necessary experience to deliver us an interesting and balanced game like BW.
Leave NP the same, leave fungal damage the same, make it slow instead of lockdown. I wonder why they want fungal to lockdown so much?
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Excellent point!
NP can still deal a lot of damage to protoss by taking Voidrays and Immortals
Both of which can deal sick damage do colosus and stalkers
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On September 14 2011 21:20 Crescend1 wrote:Infestor has 2 uses, 1 spell is against mass of regular units, 2nd spell is against single high tech units (kind of hero units). Making neural unable to target massive, basically makes whole spell miss its point. It's like storm damaged 1 unit that you cast spell on. Pretty dumb, wouldn't it be? As zerg, i really dont see viable counter to collosi, except broodlords now, and u cant get broodlords in time.if protoss sees infestors, make 1-2 robos with mass collosi, and zerg cant defend it if done properly (i mean timing of 3-4 collosi, or even 6 with double robo). This leaves zerg with corruoptors countering collossi, roaches to fight main army, and army is stuck once again in roach corruptor, with famous corruptors overmaking into mass blink stalker into zerg losing. But yeah, I'm sure suddenly protosses will be winning tournaments very often, together with terrans;)
Where's the infested Terran to kill expo, harass mineral, kill structures, anti air ???
lol Infestor is a perfect unit all around. Stop crying lol
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On September 14 2011 23:06 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 21:20 Crescend1 wrote:Infestor has 2 uses, 1 spell is against mass of regular units, 2nd spell is against single high tech units (kind of hero units). Making neural unable to target massive, basically makes whole spell miss its point. It's like storm damaged 1 unit that you cast spell on. Pretty dumb, wouldn't it be? As zerg, i really dont see viable counter to collosi, except broodlords now, and u cant get broodlords in time.if protoss sees infestors, make 1-2 robos with mass collosi, and zerg cant defend it if done properly (i mean timing of 3-4 collosi, or even 6 with double robo). This leaves zerg with corruoptors countering collossi, roaches to fight main army, and army is stuck once again in roach corruptor, with famous corruptors overmaking into mass blink stalker into zerg losing. But yeah, I'm sure suddenly protosses will be winning tournaments very often, together with terrans;) Masters' Zergs on the ladder will lose and cry about imbalance. The actual good Zergs in their respective scenes (Nestea, Losira, Coca on KR; Ret, Stephano and Nerchio on EU, etc.) will continue crushing Protoss, because their wins don't have that much to do with Infestors, which they don't even use that much (well, Stephano uses them a lot nowadays, but he used to win zvp just fine without them). A Zerg with a strong knowledge of Protoss timings and good mechanics will still win just through sheer force of their macro. Losira will just take his fast third, defend any shenanigans, and then win with mass muta, he don't need infestors for anything. I'm not saying the nerf is a good idea, it's just another shitty bandaid blizzard likes so much, but it won't make ZvP significantly less Zerg favored on the highest level.
I was thinking this too, but it's also the actual threat of infestors that is significant. When Nestea went undefeated at GSL, he would use infestors maybe only once per series, but it did give him an option, and he used it as a transition tech (ling infestor into roaches).
This basically removes the threat of infestors when protoss goes collossus, which very much changes how a protoss scouts/reacts.
I usually don't go infestors either (masters zerg), but having the option is nice and I'm sure it's something the protoss looks out for and needs to scout for before committing to some tech.
Mech is a much bigger issue. The way zerg tech functions is that once you hit a different tier, you must suddenly spend a huge amount of gas in investment, which is unlike the others which can gradually add their tech structures. This makes thor/hellion timings much more flexible than zerg T3 timings (zerg has to do it without sacrificing important mineral income/defense), and it used to be you would basically need infestor+roach as you anti mech composition. Magic box mutas first came out to stop the thor/hellion/tank mech, but roach/infestor was vital to stopping pure thor/hellion before you got your brood lords out.
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I'm upset with the direction Blizzard is taking in regards to "overpowered" units. Overpowered units were what made broodwar EXCITING. Seeing hold lurkers instant kill marines was thrilling. The defilier timing and the tide that it turns in zvt is equally exhillerating. LIkewise banelings provide excitement now and so did hellions and infestors(at least starting too.)
I feel like rather than nerfing hellions and infestors so that they can't do "huge" game changing moves, they should've just given protoss more ways to combat it. For example having the infestor have lower health(easier snipe) would be reminicient of mutalisks "sniping" high templars, the paradox obvious.
Hellions could be dealt with. Yes at a moments notice you could lose the game. But so with banelings against terran(don't immediately react, don't seige, gg.) Baneling drops require minimap awareness. Sensor towers were being built to deal with the multitude of lategame hellion runbys as well as a evolving sim city.
I just don't like the direction that Blizzard is taking. A perfectly balanced game isn't the best one. But one that can be balanced, through skill and talent, is.
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On September 15 2011 05:55 dave333 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 23:06 Toadvine wrote:On September 14 2011 21:20 Crescend1 wrote:Infestor has 2 uses, 1 spell is against mass of regular units, 2nd spell is against single high tech units (kind of hero units). Making neural unable to target massive, basically makes whole spell miss its point. It's like storm damaged 1 unit that you cast spell on. Pretty dumb, wouldn't it be? As zerg, i really dont see viable counter to collosi, except broodlords now, and u cant get broodlords in time.if protoss sees infestors, make 1-2 robos with mass collosi, and zerg cant defend it if done properly (i mean timing of 3-4 collosi, or even 6 with double robo). This leaves zerg with corruoptors countering collossi, roaches to fight main army, and army is stuck once again in roach corruptor, with famous corruptors overmaking into mass blink stalker into zerg losing. But yeah, I'm sure suddenly protosses will be winning tournaments very often, together with terrans;) Masters' Zergs on the ladder will lose and cry about imbalance. The actual good Zergs in their respective scenes (Nestea, Losira, Coca on KR; Ret, Stephano and Nerchio on EU, etc.) will continue crushing Protoss, because their wins don't have that much to do with Infestors, which they don't even use that much (well, Stephano uses them a lot nowadays, but he used to win zvp just fine without them). A Zerg with a strong knowledge of Protoss timings and good mechanics will still win just through sheer force of their macro. Losira will just take his fast third, defend any shenanigans, and then win with mass muta, he don't need infestors for anything. I'm not saying the nerf is a good idea, it's just another shitty bandaid blizzard likes so much, but it won't make ZvP significantly less Zerg favored on the highest level. I was thinking this too, but it's also the actual threat of infestors that is significant. When Nestea went undefeated at GSL, he would use infestors maybe only once per series, but it did give him an option, and he used it as a transition tech (ling infestor into roaches). This basically removes the threat of infestors when protoss goes collossus, which very much changes how a protoss scouts/reacts. I usually don't go infestors either (masters zerg), but having the option is nice and I'm sure it's something the protoss looks out for and needs to scout for before committing to some tech.
Yeah, but the good Korean Zergs had great ZvP winrates even before the Infestor buff. The buff pushed them from dominating to nigh-invincible.
Besides, as is, Protoss can pretty much Robo blindly, because you need either Robo or Blink to take your third, and Blink loses terribly to Ling/Infestor. I guess it will be fine if it pushes back Infestor tech to be about the same timing as HTs. Or they can just buff HTs and kill two birds with one stone, but I guess David Kim is still under the impression that Warp Prism shenanigans will make Ghost vs HT balanced.
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On September 15 2011 06:04 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 05:55 dave333 wrote:On September 14 2011 23:06 Toadvine wrote:On September 14 2011 21:20 Crescend1 wrote:Infestor has 2 uses, 1 spell is against mass of regular units, 2nd spell is against single high tech units (kind of hero units). Making neural unable to target massive, basically makes whole spell miss its point. It's like storm damaged 1 unit that you cast spell on. Pretty dumb, wouldn't it be? As zerg, i really dont see viable counter to collosi, except broodlords now, and u cant get broodlords in time.if protoss sees infestors, make 1-2 robos with mass collosi, and zerg cant defend it if done properly (i mean timing of 3-4 collosi, or even 6 with double robo). This leaves zerg with corruoptors countering collossi, roaches to fight main army, and army is stuck once again in roach corruptor, with famous corruptors overmaking into mass blink stalker into zerg losing. But yeah, I'm sure suddenly protosses will be winning tournaments very often, together with terrans;) Masters' Zergs on the ladder will lose and cry about imbalance. The actual good Zergs in their respective scenes (Nestea, Losira, Coca on KR; Ret, Stephano and Nerchio on EU, etc.) will continue crushing Protoss, because their wins don't have that much to do with Infestors, which they don't even use that much (well, Stephano uses them a lot nowadays, but he used to win zvp just fine without them). A Zerg with a strong knowledge of Protoss timings and good mechanics will still win just through sheer force of their macro. Losira will just take his fast third, defend any shenanigans, and then win with mass muta, he don't need infestors for anything. I'm not saying the nerf is a good idea, it's just another shitty bandaid blizzard likes so much, but it won't make ZvP significantly less Zerg favored on the highest level. I was thinking this too, but it's also the actual threat of infestors that is significant. When Nestea went undefeated at GSL, he would use infestors maybe only once per series, but it did give him an option, and he used it as a transition tech (ling infestor into roaches). This basically removes the threat of infestors when protoss goes collossus, which very much changes how a protoss scouts/reacts. I usually don't go infestors either (masters zerg), but having the option is nice and I'm sure it's something the protoss looks out for and needs to scout for before committing to some tech. Yeah, but the good Korean Zergs had great ZvP winrates even before the Infestor buff. The buff pushed them from dominating to nigh-invincible. Besides, as is, Protoss can pretty much Robo blindly, because you need either Robo or Blink to take your third, and Blink loses terribly to Ling/Infestor. I guess it will be fine if it pushes back Infestor tech to be about the same timing as HTs. Or they can just buff HTs and kill two birds with one stone, but I guess David Kim is still under the impression that Warp Prism shenanigans will make Ghost vs HT balanced.
I see what you mean, and I agree this isn't the worst thing in the ZvP matchup. I've always viewed infestors as a bit of a crutch in ZvP, because protoss players find them hard to deal with so your macro/droning didnt have to be top notch.
However, it makes ZvT against mech much more difficult. It opens up the strongest thor hellion timing there is, where you have a pretty critical mass thor/hellion ball that melts magic box mutas, roaches, lings, etc. and before brood lords come out.
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EPT
