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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 15 2011 11:03 Belial88 wrote:
- Broodlords ( 3 stalkers beat a BL, or 2 micro'd stalkers, or 2 upgraded stalkers, or 2 stalkers + 1 shot)
Lolololol is this kid for real? 3 roaches beats a colossus without support, roaches OP?!?!?! Every single example you make is so severely bias that its a joke.
Bane rain isn't nerfed, that was proven untrue.
This whole thread is cluttered with your bitching and whining, please stop. I can't even be bothered going through and pointing out your consistent failed logic.
OT, anyone know when patch 1.3 came out? Both 1.3 and 1.4 had an 'update' with new changes exactly 14 days after changes went on PTR, so I'm guessing that the timing of when the patch goes live will be the same too.
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I just have a hard time imagining what zerg players are going to do against colossi and thors now that NP is non massive unit only. PvZ will be especially hard because NP was such a vital tool against countering the 6 colossi which melted everything on the ground. In my opinion if this nerf to NP goes through then NP will be useless. There's no unit other than the siege tank any more that you can cost effectively use NP on.
I think a fair compromise to this NP nerf that wouldn't break the zerg midgame would be to make NP still gain control of the unit but be unable to attack. This is really putting a bandaid over a severed limb in terms of quick fixes though.
The entire zerg race was pretty badly designed and the infestor being so powerful was a side effect from blizzard's inability to balance a game which is missing key elements. If you look at what the zerg race was missing when the game was released you'll find out pretty fast why the infestor became what it is now.
It all boils down to the fact that zerg was lacking 2 things on release: reliable AOE against armor and a siege unit. Blizzard first tried to fix this by changing the numbers on the ultralisk so that it would become your late game "siege unit" by just barreling through the front lines. Issue was that ultralisks didn't come out fast enough before protoss had critical mass on stalkers. Void rays were also an issue because hydras don't synergize well with ultras. To an extent the lack of a siege unit still exists, but if you look at the infestor it is really the zerg version of a siege tank or a colossus. FG acts as an AOE attack vs. armored and NP is the move which allows zerg to take advantage of range. Zerg needs the infestor to keep the NP otherwise the siege aspect of protoss and terran armies will win out every single fight, but at the same time having a colossi heavy army with like even 4 infestors on the field is really really deadly and it's just too easy to NP 4 colossi with 4 infestors and just turn the army around.
Honestly I don't think that in the current state of the game that it can be balanced for all 3 race match ups. The zerg race is simply just lacking in a dedicated siege unit and/or a dedicated AOE vs. armored unit. Until this happens (hopefully in HotS) this whole back and forward thing with the infestor is going to keep going on because there's no way to viably balance a unit which fills EVERY SINGLE ROLE that the zerg race does not have.
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On September 15 2011 11:49 Zerksys wrote:
I just have a hard time imagining what zerg players are going to do against colossi and thors now that NP is non massive unit only. PvZ will be especially hard because NP was such a vital tool against countering the 6 colossi which melted everything on the ground. In my opinion if this nerf to NP goes through then NP will be useless. There's no unit other than the siege tank any more that you can cost effectively use NP on.
I think a fair compromise to this NP nerf that wouldn't break the zerg midgame would be to make NP still gain control of the unit but be unable to attack. This is really putting a bandaid over a severed limb in terms of quick fixes though.
The entire zerg race was pretty badly designed and the infestor being so powerful was a side effect from blizzard's inability to balance a game which is missing key elements. If you look at what the zerg race was missing when the game was released you'll find out pretty fast why the infestor became what it is now.
It all boils down to the fact that zerg was lacking 2 things on release: reliable AOE against armor and a siege unit. Blizzard first tried to fix this by changing the numbers on the ultralisk so that it would become your late game "siege unit" by just barreling through the front lines. Issue was that ultralisks didn't come out fast enough before protoss had critical mass on stalkers. Void rays were also an issue because hydras don't synergize well with ultras. To an extent the lack of a siege unit still exists, but if you look at the infestor it is really the zerg version of a siege tank or a colossus. FG acts as an AOE attack vs. armored and NP is the move which allows zerg to take advantage of range. Zerg needs the infestor to keep the NP otherwise the siege aspect of protoss and terran armies will win out every single fight, but at the same time having a colossi heavy army with like even 4 infestors on the field is really really deadly and it's just too easy to NP 4 colossi with 4 infestors and just turn the army around.
Honestly I don't think that in the current state of the game that it can be balanced for all 3 race match ups. The zerg race is simply just lacking in a dedicated siege unit and/or a dedicated AOE vs. armored unit. Until this happens (hopefully in HotS) this whole back and forward thing with the infestor is going to keep going on because there's no way to viably balance a unit which fills EVERY SINGLE ROLE that the zerg race does not have.
One of the more aptly put posts describing the state of this patch and the Zerg race in general, accurate and simple without being whiny.
Well said, applause to you good sir.
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@Zerksys yes that was a great post, well thought-out.
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On September 15 2011 11:49 Zerksys wrote:
I just have a hard time imagining what zerg players are going to do against colossi and thors now that NP is non massive unit only. PvZ will be especially hard because NP was such a vital tool against countering the 6 colossi which melted everything on the ground. In my opinion if this nerf to NP goes through then NP will be useless. There's no unit other than the siege tank any more that you can cost effectively use NP on.
I think a fair compromise to this NP nerf that wouldn't break the zerg midgame would be to make NP still gain control of the unit but be unable to attack. This is really putting a bandaid over a severed limb in terms of quick fixes though.
The entire zerg race was pretty badly designed and the infestor being so powerful was a side effect from blizzard's inability to balance a game which is missing key elements. If you look at what the zerg race was missing when the game was released you'll find out pretty fast why the infestor became what it is now.
It all boils down to the fact that zerg was lacking 2 things on release: reliable AOE against armor and a siege unit. Blizzard first tried to fix this by changing the numbers on the ultralisk so that it would become your late game "siege unit" by just barreling through the front lines. Issue was that ultralisks didn't come out fast enough before protoss had critical mass on stalkers. Void rays were also an issue because hydras don't synergize well with ultras. To an extent the lack of a siege unit still exists, but if you look at the infestor it is really the zerg version of a siege tank or a colossus. FG acts as an AOE attack vs. armored and NP is the move which allows zerg to take advantage of range. Zerg needs the infestor to keep the NP otherwise the siege aspect of protoss and terran armies will win out every single fight, but at the same time having a colossi heavy army with like even 4 infestors on the field is really really deadly and it's just too easy to NP 4 colossi with 4 infestors and just turn the army around.
Honestly I don't think that in the current state of the game that it can be balanced for all 3 race match ups. The zerg race is simply just lacking in a dedicated siege unit and/or a dedicated AOE vs. armored unit. Until this happens (hopefully in HotS) this whole back and forward thing with the infestor is going to keep going on because there's no way to viably balance a unit which fills EVERY SINGLE ROLE that the zerg race does not have.
Very good post indeed, but why wouldn't banelings fill this AOE role that you say they lack. We've seen the epicness that is baneling drops. So i ask, why not banelings. i hope zerksys could answer this rather than get a bias/whinny answer(from someone else). This is a legit question by the way. im not sure if they would fill the role or not, just curious.
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On September 15 2011 11:34 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 11:03 Belial88 wrote:
- Broodlords ( 3 stalkers beat a BL, or 2 micro'd stalkers, or 2 upgraded stalkers, or 2 stalkers + 1 shot)
Lolololol is this kid for real? 3 roaches beats a colossus without support, roaches OP?!?!?! Every single example you make is so severely bias that its a joke. Bane rain isn't nerfed, that was proven untrue. This whole thread is cluttered with your bitching and whining, please stop. I can't even be bothered going through and pointing out your consistent failed logic. OT, anyone know when patch 1.3 came out? Both 1.3 and 1.4 had an 'update' with new changes exactly 14 days after changes went on PTR, so I'm guessing that the timing of when the patch goes live will be the same too.
i think thats same belial from wc3. i remember him on forums always complaining about paper burrows and orc being bad LOL. ignore the troll
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i lol'd when i read the NP nerf, why would you ever get NP then. It serves no purpose.
why would you take over a SINGLE unit when the mana could be better served throwing up infested terrans which would do more dps then taking over a stalker. Seige tank is the only viable target now.
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On September 15 2011 12:24 VenerableSpace wrote:
i lol'd when i read the NP nerf, why would you ever get NP then. It serves no purpose.
why would you take over a SINGLE unit when the mana could be better served throwing up infested terrans which would do more dps then taking over a stalker. Seige tank is the only viable target now.
seige tank, immortal, maybe templar/ghost?
but yea... pretty small amount of uses :o
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^ You don't really see stalker armies without a few sentries, right? And blink stalkers own mutas, there's a strange relationship when the numbers for the mutas get high but stalkers still counter mutas. I said sentries to make it a bit 'safer', but if you want me to clear, I'll say it - stalkers beat mutas.
And the BL example isn't dumb, as you'll have colossi and immortals and storm or whatever, support, with your stalkers. No one is going to throw out 3 stalkers.
Obviously, zerglings, or roaches, or BLs, or ultras, can all do well against stalkers in certain situations. But the versatility of the stalker is unrivaled from Zerg.
I'm not complaining about balance at all here. My point is that the stalkers is a very versatile unit, just like the infestor. So many people are complaining about the infestor being too versatile, and I'm pointing out how ridiculous such claims are when you compare it to marines or stalkers, units that are much cheaper and much more versatile than infestors are.
If versatility of a unit is a problem for balance, then the infestor is a far cry from the 'imbalance' of the blink stalker. Now I'm not saying I think the blink stalker is imbalanced, but according to the logic of versatility = imbalance, the infestor is not nearly as imbalanced as the blink stalker.
Lolololol is this kid for real? 3 roaches beats a colossus without support, roaches OP?!?!?! Every single example you make is so severely bias that its a joke.
Bane rain isn't nerfed, that was proven untrue.
This whole thread is cluttered with your bitching and whining, please stop. I can't even be bothered going through and pointing out your consistent failed logic.
OT, anyone know when patch 1.3 came out? Both 1.3 and 1.4 had an 'update' with new changes exactly 14 days after changes went on PTR, so I'm guessing that the timing of when the patch goes live will be the same too.
I didn't say 3 stalkers beating a BL is OP or anything. I was discussing how versatile stalkers were, to counter the claim that infestors are op because they are 'too versatile'. Read my fucking posts, and maybe this thread wouldn't be cluttered with me repeating myself against trolls.
I am aware bane rain isn't nerfed, I made it pretty clear in my post that there is some ambiguity to it.
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Very good post indeed, but why wouldn't banelings fill this AOE role that you say they lack. We've seen the epicness that is baneling drops. So i ask, why not banelings. i hope zerksys could answer this rather than get a bias/whinny answer(from someone else). This is a legit question by the way. im not sure if they would fill the role or not, just curious.
VR/Colossus, and that Stalker/Colossus can blink and outmicro baneling rain. It's not like baneling splitting vs marine splitting, or zergling flanks to hold in place. There's infestor/bane rain, but you can't afford both on anything less than 4 bases (baneling drop costs and times roughly the same as infestor tech, and banelings are more gas expensive per supply than colossi or infestors).
It's a great way to deal with someone who goes heavier on Colossi than stalkers, or goes mass gateway without blink, or goes Zealot/HT, but it has a lot of deficiencies compared to the versatility of infestors. Baneling rain is good against HT based compositions where infestors aren't, but roaches added to your infestors is a bit safer, and you can also deal with stargate play.
i think thats same belial from wc3. i remember him on forums always complaining about paper burrows and orc being bad LOL. ignore the troll
Didn't play wc3. I'm glad your discussing my arguments instead of just posting useless posts that only serve to flame. Nothing I have said has been countered by any argument on the merit of the post, only character accusations because you have nothing to offer to this thread. Useful.
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On September 15 2011 12:37 Belial88 wrote:^ You don't really see stalker armies without a few sentries, right? And blink stalkers own mutas, there's a strange relationship when the numbers for the mutas get high but stalkers still counter mutas. I said sentries to make it a bit 'safer', but if you want me to clear, I'll say it - stalkers beat mutas. And the BL example isn't dumb, as you'll have colossi and immortals and storm or whatever, support, with your stalkers. No one is going to throw out 3 stalkers. Obviously, zerglings, or roaches, or BLs, or ultras, can all do well against stalkers in certain situations. But the versatility of the stalker is unrivaled from Zerg. I'm not complaining about balance at all here. My point is that the stalkers is a very versatile unit, just like the infestor. So many people are complaining about the infestor being too versatile, and I'm pointing out how ridiculous such claims are when you compare it to marines or stalkers, units that are much cheaper and much more versatile than infestors are. If versatility of a unit is a problem for balance, then the infestor is a far cry from the 'imbalance' of the blink stalker. Now I'm not saying I think the blink stalker is imbalanced, but according to the logic of versatility = imbalance, the infestor is not nearly as imbalanced as the blink stalker. Show nested quote +Lolololol is this kid for real? 3 roaches beats a colossus without support, roaches OP?!?!?! Every single example you make is so severely bias that its a joke.
Bane rain isn't nerfed, that was proven untrue.
This whole thread is cluttered with your bitching and whining, please stop. I can't even be bothered going through and pointing out your consistent failed logic.
OT, anyone know when patch 1.3 came out? Both 1.3 and 1.4 had an 'update' with new changes exactly 14 days after changes went on PTR, so I'm guessing that the timing of when the patch goes live will be the same too. I didn't say 3 stalkers beating a BL is OP or anything. I was discussing how versatile stalkers were, to counter the claim that infestors are op because they are 'too versatile'. Read my fucking posts, and maybe this thread wouldn't be cluttered with me repeating myself against trolls. I am aware bane rain isn't nerfed, I made it pretty clear in my post that there is some ambiguity to it.
Stalkers aren't actually the ideal counter to Broodlords from a Protoss perspective. They die really fast to everything on the ground. It's impossible for Blink Stalkers to kill all the Broodlords unless the Zerg is incompetent or makes a mistake.
Sure they are versatile in the sense that they can hit everything, but it's the most expensive tier 1 unit in the game with crappy DPS. They aren't as good as you make them sound.
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And infestors aren't as good as you make them sound.
While VR's are the ideal counter to BL, against a Roach/BL composition, Protoss still has a very good chance with blink stalker/colossi.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying blink stalkers is just the only thing Protoss should or needs to make. I'm just saying they are versatile too, and just showing how ridiculous that whole argument is. Just as blink stalkers aren't the most efficient way to deal with BL, infestors aren't efficient against colossi (and especially HT).
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Infestors are as good or better than they sounded prior to this patch. Units that can independently kill small armies and kill spellcasters while keeping the rest of the army stunned that can also mindcontrol units while being affordable and if all else fails spawn 8 eggs that can tank enormous amounts of fire and then spawn with full hp no matter how much damage the egg took. The units inside the eggs also have the depicted armor and ranged attack upgrades the zerg has, so these units progress as most zergs progress. These infestors also have the ability to burrow, can spawn and within 40 game seconds neural parasite something.
Edit: That can also silence a group of spellcasters or ability using units while outranging using the only direct AOE spell in the game with no cast delay.
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Can Zerg just get a Dark Archon instead?
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It's funny that this topic is still going on. I think all blizz is really gonna care about at the end of the day is what the pros say, and what we show them result wise (replays/descriptions of the replays/ win to loss ratios via their automated systems) from playing on the PTR and posting in the PTR forums.
I really feel like this topic has lived out it's usefulness and everyone needs to take their discussions and replays to the PTR forums now.
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On September 15 2011 13:14 JediGamer wrote:
Infestors are as good or better than they sounded prior to this patch. Units that can independently kill small armies and kill spellcasters while keeping the rest of the army stunned that can also mindcontrol units while being affordable and if all else fails spawn 8 eggs that can tank enormous amounts of fire and then spawn with full hp no matter how much damage the egg took. The units inside the eggs also have the depicted armor and ranged attack upgrades the zerg has, so these units progress as most zergs progress. These infestors also have the ability to burrow, can spawn and within 40 game seconds neural parasite something.
They don't kill spellcasters, ghosts take 3 FG to kill and can EMP while FG'd, can cloak and snipe overseers, do a high amount of damage when they have no energy, and can 2-snipe infestors before regen. HT FB kills infestors immediately, best case scenario a FG is wasted to barely hit a HT with good micro, and has to either channel NP causing them to be highly vulnerable as the most vulnerable spellcaster in the game, and a single FG on an army to be gibbed immediately is useless. Not being able to FG due to fear of FB or getting a single FG off and losing an infestor in the process is just useless.
It's a good unit, but it's also the most vulnerable, time consuming, and expensive of the 3 casters. It counters what it counters very well (kind of like colossi vs roaches and hydras and storm vs lings, banes, hydras and mutas) but it's extremely vulnerable to HT and it's too cost inefficient to NP or chain FG and lose the infestors in the process. They are great as a throwaway unit in zerg fashion, but a Zerg on even bases or just +1 base with the other race will never win with infestors due to their high cost and high likelihood of dying. Zerg has to make an extra 2-3 spellcaster compared to the other races to ensure their spells get off (IT, NP, FG) and as the highest cost and highest time of the spellcasters, it makes it an extremely expensive unit.
They are great when Zerg has a macro advantage, but in such a scenario Zerg, or any race, should be winning but they can't because most of their units are just useless no matter how many bases you have against a Protoss deathball or end-game Terran. They will never win without a macro advantage.
They are great units, and versatile, and are great at what they counter, but colossi and storm is also extremely effective. The difference is that infestors have huge counters and have to be used as throwaway units due to the nature of their channeled/chained spells, whereas, say, colossi, are units that are way 'too good' against what they counter but yet don't have a really hardcore counter to them. This contrasts to the infestor which does have some extreme counters to them. It's not like Zerg can make colossi useless instantly - but FB? Or EMP? Suddenly the infestor is useless or they will die in unaffordable fashion.
It just takes 1 HT or 1 ghosts to take out a lot of infestors, you can do that with less resources and less time. The corruptor? It takes more resources to make enough corruptors to actually deal with the unit they are meant to counter.
But most importantly, it makes Zerg a lot about position and micro, skills that Zerg could never really utilize before. With the low range of Corruptors, all Zerg can do is FF and hope they kill in time, as you can't snipe colossi like you can with vikings and capitalize on out of position armies. But with good positioning and micro, HT can definitely beat out infestors, but with a positional advantage and micro, infestors have a chance to still remain useful, although not cost efficiently.
It's an amazing unit when Zerg has a macro advantage, and a lot of people don't realize that I feel. I think people just assume it's this amazing unit, but it's so damn costly. It really just compounds a Zerg's macro advantage when they should win no matter what unit they go with.
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I think blizzard needs to nerf zerg's ability to whine. Infestors were too versatile of a unit, so they are nerfing them. Get it through your heads. Corrupters are the counter to collos, not infestors.
This thread needs to be closed or locked. I come to see what everyone thinks about the patch and I get flooded out by zerg tears.
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No one counters colossi with corruptors. fayth already posted that if this change goes through, they aren't going back to corruptors. On Sotg they all said corruptors are pretty useless as well. You'll never see a pro game go well for zerg if they try to counter colossi with corruptors...
Now you know what people think of the patch. It's bad for zvp.
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On September 15 2011 13:51 Ventor wrote:
Corrupters are the counter to collos, not infestors.
Everything you say from here on out is now automatically invalidated by your one silly comment. lolololololol.
But yes, the topic needs to end. People need to move to the PTR. Arguing here isn't helping any of us or the state of the game.
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"countering" collosi with corrupters is just.... pretty retarded.
I come to see what everyone thinks about the patch and I get flooded out by zerg tears.
maybe these "zerg tears" you got "flooded out" by are actually what a portion of "everyone" thinks about this patch?... I mean..
just like..
maybe?
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EPT
