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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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PuercoPop
Peru277 Posts
On September 15 2011 14:38 Lomak wrote: Idra and Destiny had a match at MLG? Could you give a link to the replay please, I never seen these games. He means the MLG Online invitational from yesterday. | ||
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Trealador
United States207 Posts
I understand Terran is probably the most well rounded race, but the game design is just bad. Protoss and Zerg are far too reliant on 1-2 units that if they nerf those units they will be completely walked over, so I understand the complaining about the NP nerf. But honestly, zerg should be ok once they figure out the meta game a little more as right now they are losing to stuff early cause they are being a little too greedy. Late game honestly the zerg has to mess up to lose vs terran, and ZvP late game the protoss has to mess up. If that isn't blizzard balance I don't know what is. And for the record, even Artosis said that Stalkers are too good in the PvZ matchup, so please take your head out of your ass if you don't see the imbalance of the stalker in the early-mid game. | ||
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hobosrus
United States99 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On September 15 2011 15:52 Trealador wrote: And for the record, even Artosis said that Stalkers are too good in the PvZ matchup, so please take your head out of your ass if you don't see the imbalance of the stalker in the early-mid game. Oh God... now we quote Artosis for balance. This thread really has degenerated. "Even Artosis" - Artosis has long been vocal on balance, and has often been wrong. He's a good caster, not such a good player, and even worse at being correct. If you're going to use anyone's opinion to back up your argument, it better be a high level PLAYER rather than just a celebrity. | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On September 15 2011 12:29 Sanchonator wrote: seige tank, immortal, maybe templar/ghost? but yea... pretty small amount of uses :o So if the NP nerf goes through, what DO we target NP with now? Aside from the basic t1 units, there's nothing worth taking... Tanks: Taking over tanks is probably the most 'useful' of units to NP, but considering that tanks have a whopping 4 range over the infestors and infestors dying in 2 tank shots, terran should be able to target them right? In any case, it's probably much more damaging to fungal the marines and throw up an infested terran. Immortals: Relatively 'easy' to NP due to range difference. However, why would P want to make immortals when they're able to make collosus? I see P making a few immortals while holding off big roach attack waiting for Coll Tech, even then, some P prefers to just make more obs if they see the Z not relying on heavy roaches. HT/Ghosts: If you're in a position to NP these units, they are in a position to hit you. Considering that NP has a long-ass cast animation, the HT would be able to feedback/storm the infestor and essentially kill the infestor before NP lands. Same with ghosts and snipes (2 snipes). When you take into account the range difference of P/T armies compared to Z, it becomes even harder (Ghosts/ HT can stay back and still be able to cast storms on Z. If infestors run up to NP it'll be in range of pretty much every non-zealot unit. Void Rays: No point NP'ing these imo. When the Voids are in a scary number, you'd rather fungal them and cast a few IT, it's even more APM efficient and energy efficient (depending on how stacked the voids are). I THINK if you can land a fungal for 2 voids, it ends up doing more damage than NP'ing one void, although NP'ing does reduce the dps. Ravens: umm, NP'ing anything of Terran is going to be hard, but meta game atm, T rarely gets raven out. Maybe with the HSM buff we'll see them more, but now infestors can be hit by HSM off creep. Maybe. Other Infestors: lol. You can NP the infestor, to then NP all their infestors into a never ending chain. Win. Wait, if you NP an infestor and use it to cast IT, does the IT belong to you? or them? oO EDIT: : So yea, essentially, you want to Neural Immortals, and tanks if you're able, but that's about it... But usually the situation is that you'd rather Fungal the accompanying unit than NP them. Thinking back on that MC vs Idra game where Idra NP'd the Immortals, that was more than likely because his army was predominantly roaches and MC's mostly Stalkers relying on FF to outrange roaches. If it was say Zealot/Immortal/HTs I doubt he would've bothered NP'ing the Immortal. | ||
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Trealador
United States207 Posts
On September 15 2011 16:00 hobosrus wrote: huh so many people think that pvz is in favor of protoss. That may be true in gold league but in the pro scene ive seen great tosses lose to okayish zergs so often. even the overall tournament win rate is in favor of zerg...so many people who thnk that they know what they are talkng about. why dont you just let pros decide balance, they know best. We are talking about future metagame with the NP nerf and protoss buffs, I understand PvZ is in favor slightly for the Zerg at the moment. Please try to grasp simple concepts in a thread designated for the past patches and tournaments. Oh wait. And Artosis is probably one of the most knowledgeable people in SC. Just because he spends his time casting instead of playing, doesn't make his knowledge of the game less valid. And since he is somewhat of an expert on the races he has played. Oh yeah, Zerg and Protoss. And he didn't say it was super imba, he just said he would like to see how it would effect the PvZ matchup because Stalkers are far too versatile like the infestor which is getting...buffed? | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6214 Posts
On September 15 2011 14:09 -_- wrote: Hey guys, do you love reading Belial88's thoughts on the Protoss race, but don't have enough time to dig into his meaty posts? Don't sweat it. I'll give you the rundown of his thoughts on every Protoss unit. Voidrays: 'Unstoppable' Carriers: 'Unstoppable' Carriers and Voidrays: 'Unstoppable, but not imbalanced.' Sentries: 'Probably imbalanced.' Motherships: 'Definitely imbalanced' Stalkers: 'The counter to every Zerg unit' Archons: 'Uncounterable by any Zerg unit' Zealots: 'Good against Roaches.' Zealots and Archons: 'The hard counter to roaches.' HT: 'By the time you've read this description, all my Infestors are already dead.' Colossus: 'Hard counter to everything... which is why the Infestor's neural parasite has to affect massive... but... even with neural parasite... Colossus still hard counter them.' lol. Thank you for this post, that was awesome. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
FG the units necessary to take out the BLs (Vikings, Blinkers, VRs, etc.) and laugh your pants off as the BLs and FG go to town. Not to mention the sea of Roaches underneath the BLs provides enough of a buffer against the Stalkers. It's still really effective, so I don't understand the severe complaints. As far as NP goes, NP'ing Thors and especially Colossi was too much of a game changer. This change is not a bad one. What is intriguing though is that in Korea, Terran is by far the best faction. It's interesting as to why Zerg, the middle one, was nerfed most. Probably because Infestors and Infestor + BL has been a long-standing problem. I even recall in JP McDaniel's interviews with DK and DB back in May, they said specifically they were looking at BL + Infestor. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 15 2011 16:20 Trealador wrote: We are talking about future metagame with the NP nerf and protoss buffs, I understand PvZ is in favor slightly for the Zerg at the moment. Please try to grasp simple concepts in a thread designated for the past patches and tournaments. Oh wait. And Artosis is probably one of the most knowledgeable people in SC. Just because he spends his time casting instead of playing, doesn't make his knowledge of the game less valid. And since he is somewhat of an expert on the races he has played. Oh yeah, Zerg and Protoss. And he didn't say it was super imba, he just said he would like to see how it would effect the PvZ matchup because Stalkers are far too versatile like the infestor which is getting...buffed? To be exact, Artosis said that he would like to nerf Stalker damage to 8+6. Fair enough, I thought, he's entitled to his opinion. Then he went on to say that the change wouldn't affect PvT or PvP too much. At which point, me, and most Protoss players watching I'd imagine, made a mental note to never take Artosis talking about Protoss balance seriously. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On September 15 2011 18:25 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: BL + Infestor is still the greatest face in Koridai, I mean Koprulu. FG the units necessary to take out the BLs (Vikings, Blinkers, VRs, etc.) and laugh your pants off as the BLs and FG go to town. Not to mention the sea of Roaches underneath the BLs provides enough of a buffer against the Stalkers. It's still really effective, so I don't understand the severe complaints. As far as NP goes, NP'ing Thors and especially Colossi was too much of a game changer. This change is not a bad one. What is intriguing though is that in Korea, Terran is by far the best faction. It's interesting as to why Zerg, the middle one, was nerfed most. Probably because Infestors and Infestor + BL has been a long-standing problem. I even recall in JP McDaniel's interviews with DK and DB back in May, they said specifically they were looking at BL + Infestor. This change does nothing to Infestor Broodlord. All it does is make the timings before the broodlords come out stronger (either with colossi or thors), hence it's a silly change. In PvZ the strength of the Infestor is that it keeps you from killing off his broodlords, which then wreck you, with fungal's root. Neural Parasite, while annoying, is not necessarily OP...it was definitely going to be stronger after the patch (neuraled units retain upgrades now), but then they could have tweaked the energy cost on Infestor spells (for example) rather than nerfing the one thing that didn't really need nerfing. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 15 2011 16:09 SeaSwift wrote: Oh God... now we quote Artosis for balance. This thread really has degenerated. "Even Artosis" - Artosis has long been vocal on balance, and has often been wrong. He's a good caster, not such a good player, and even worse at being correct. If you're going to use anyone's opinion to back up your argument, it better be a high level PLAYER rather than just a celebrity. Artosis is Masters in KR, and he did it with 2 races. He's a higher rank than any Master level forum hero like you or me, and probably more knowledgeable than anyone except pros like Idra or Sheth or Huk, and even then, he may be just as knowledgeable due to his multi-racing. Both of you flaming and just being assholes is kind of obnoxious (oh god.., thread degenereated, head out of your ass...wtf guys, this is a friendly thread to talk about SC2, do you talk that way to your friends when you have political debates?). BUT I actually agree with you, and disagree with Artosis. Yes, stalkers are good in the PvZ match-up, and they are extremely versatile, but I don't think they are imbalanced. They are fucking impossibly difficult to deal with, they are hard as shit to fight against but easy as shit to use and micro with, but no, I don't think they are imbalanced. He also said that the bonus damage to armored should be removed, not the actual damage FYI. Which I would be interested in seeing, i don't understand why it does that, I would be interested in seeing that as PTR. But whatever. I mean if anything is imbalanced, maybe blink stalkers vs Zerg, but I don't really think so. It's not the biggest stretch though, I could be convinced otherwise. FG the units necessary to take out the BLs (Vikings, Blinkers, VRs, etc.) and laugh your pants off as the BLs and FG go to town. Not to mention the sea of Roaches underneath the BLs provides enough of a buffer against the Stalkers. It's still really effective, so I don't understand the severe complaints. As far as NP goes, NP'ing Thors and especially Colossi was too much of a game changer. This change is not a bad one. What is intriguing though is that in Korea, Terran is by far the best faction. It's interesting as to why Zerg, the middle one, was nerfed most. Probably because Infestors and Infestor + BL has been a long-standing problem. I even recall in JP McDaniel's interviews with DK and DB back in May, they said specifically they were looking at BL + Infestor. You are aware that Siege Tanks and Vikings are cheaper and come out faster than BL/Infestor right? And that infestors have less range than siege tanks, so that they always die every time they FG due to being 2 shotted by tanks right? So that on even bases or even with zerg up a base, BL/infestor is actually horrible right? No one NP'd thors, you'd get owned by siege tanks, that wasn't a game changer at all. All of the best pros dealt with mech using mutas and BL, not infestors, because of siege tanks. And NP'ing colossi is the only way for Zerg to deal with certain deathballs when baneling rain isn't viable (mass blink stalker, or VR). Corruptors don't really counter Colossi efficiently at all, you need 4+ at least, and 4 corruptors cost more than a colossi, and do a worse job than say, vikings. Even worse, Zerg's ground army is worse than Terran's and Protoss', so it's not like this deficiency is made up for in an awesome ground army. many people think that pvz is in favor of protoss. That may be true in gold league but in the pro scene ive seen great tosses lose to okayish zergs so often. even the overall tournament win rate is in favor of zerg...so many people who thnk that they know what they are talkng about. why dont you just let pros decide balance, they know best. I've seen much better zergs lose to okayish Zergs, like cruncher. You should actually watch those tournament VODs and figured out why Protoss lost, instead of just saying it as proof of anything. If the Protoss metagame was to 4 gate a lot, and then Zerg figures it out a month later, it doesn't mean imbalance occured. Right now, the spore crawler buff, Zerg better scouting stargate, and Zerg's recent fast third vs FFE are what's owning ZvP in the pro scene. Infestors have not been a deciding factor in a single ZvP in the GSL. They have been used in an overwhelming minority of ZvPs that even reached the late game, and Zerg won because of overwhelming macro advantages and failed harass openers by P, as well as shitty Zergs getting elminated by terran or other zerg, and then the best zergs being matched up against the shitty protoss, and the best protoss losing all to terran or mirror (huk, alician, genius, puzzle). | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On September 15 2011 16:00 hobosrus wrote: huh so many people think that pvz is in favor of protoss. That may be true in gold league but in the pro scene ive seen great tosses lose to okayish zergs so often. even the overall tournament win rate is in favor of zerg...so many people who thnk that they know what they are talkng about. why dont you just let pros decide balance, they know best. Well, except it is Blizzard deciding balance, not pros. | ||
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Trealador
United States207 Posts
On September 15 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote: To be exact, Artosis said that he would like to nerf Stalker damage to 8+6. Fair enough, I thought, he's entitled to his opinion. Then he went on to say that the change wouldn't affect PvT or PvP too much. At which point, me, and most Protoss players watching I'd imagine, made a mental note to never take Artosis talking about Protoss balance seriously. Because changing Protoss would break the PvP matchup? Sorry that it would probably nerf 4 gates and nothing but blink stalker games...and PvT the real damage comes from colossus/Immortals/archons/HT. Not to mention PvT is moving towards a ton of zealot play and stalkers are a much smaller part of it. Not saying it wouldn't effect the match up but I don't think it would be the biggest heart break. WP and immortals are getting buffed, and if the change were to happen they would probably make other adjustments. It would probably be a good change as long as they didn't just change stalkers and nothing else. | ||
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Trealador
United States207 Posts
The thread is for talking balance on the PTR, not how much protoss can cry about terran and zerg. You may say I am biased but zerg are actually bringing up decent points about balance, and terran really don't seem to be complaining about their changes anymore because they make sense. Protoss get buffed and explode on the forums defending NP change which really doesn't make sense in the first place. Sweet. | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
On September 15 2011 18:45 Trealador wrote: Because changing Protoss would break the PvP matchup? Sorry that it would probably nerf 4 gates and nothing but blink stalker games...and PvT the real damage comes from colossus/Immortals/archons/HT. Not to mention PvT is moving towards a ton of zealot play and stalkers are a much smaller part of it. Not saying it wouldn't effect the match up but I don't think it would be the biggest heart break. WP and immortals are getting buffed, and if the change were to happen they would probably make other adjustments. It would probably be a good change as long as they didn't just change stalkers and nothing else. Oh dear god :/ you can't be serious can you? I mean I had to lol at the guy saying that a zealot beats a roach without micro...4 scvs beat a stalker without micro lolol you really want to nerf stalker DPS? Cause that's the problem with stalkers? And you wonder why nobody takes whining zerg players seriously... And no sorry buddy if you think nobody makes stalkers in PvT you are sorely mistaken. What, you think protoss doesn't make stalkers cause they like watching the viking count grow to the extent they 1 shot colossus? Protoss needs stalkers in PvT, even if they aren't the best unit to have... Seriously man don't talk about things you don't understand. I'm definitely not some pro player but at least I know when I should just shut the fuck up... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 15 2011 19:01 Trealador wrote: Infestor BL is fine if you don't let them get them out? So when it's late game and they have BL infestor you just GG? That's good balance. Not to mention zerg can remax to 200/200 as soon as they hit 4 bases. You can't look at units 1v1, protoss have better units, zerg can remax faster. Terran has a better ground army because they need to, can Terran have 1 ability catch 25 marines and kill them? losing 1000-1200 minerals for 150 energy is a fair trade? Not to mention reinforcing late game with warpgate is fantastic. Terran are the least mobile of all the races, it's called uniqueness in races and we don't want it to be homogenized into oblivion. yeah, because zerg is never supposed to have a good composition that can attack I guess... But I guess it is COMPLETLY IMBALANCED, that when games go like (EVERY TvZ that is not played by MVP): Crushing 2 pushes, 2 drops and 1 opening (hellion, banshee, 2rax...) and then transitioning in a only high tech unit composition, that straight up costs more gas than any other composition in the game AND takes the longest to get to AND implies HUGE passive costs AND hardly any opportunities to win earlier, while Terran still does his Marine/Tank/Medivac since minute 6... Ever wondered why MVP is so good in the lategame? He doesn't just 2base push, 2base push, 3base push, drop drop drop and lose units all game long. He doesn't have to rebuild all the time, and therefore is able to get faster and more vikings, ghosts and even Battlecruisers (remember that Dimaga game...) than any other Terran in TvZ. He plays like a Zerg. Defensiv. And then he beats Zergs who can't handle not being terribly ahead in the lategame. If anyone wants some Pro-Opinions on the Infestornerfs: State of the Game 49 + Show Spoiler + I'm going with those guys. Infestors look too good right now vs Protoss, not vs Terran. Neural Parasite shouldn't target motherships, and maybe not battlecruisers &Carriers. If it doesn't target colossi, Colossiplay is to strong vs Infestorplay. The patch comes to fast, Protoss gets some buffs this patch that might help already AND a lot of new Protoss styles are just being developed in PvZ. (Code A has 11 Protoss players this season - as many as zerg and 2more than terran.) Mass Thor +hellions might get too strong without Neural countering it, as there is noway to get enough Broods in time, and roaches on their own don't work once there is a reasonable amount of Thors. | ||
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beg
991 Posts
If it doesn't target colossi, Colossiplay is to strong vs Infestorplay. i think this has to be taken with a big grain of salt. just because we see people trying to beat collossi compositions with NP, doesn't mean that using only fungal is worse. maybe people are wrongly assuming that they should be NPing. i dont know. me personally, i always thought pure fungal would probably be stronger, if infestors are microd well. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Fg has incredibly short range as well, so getting 3 shotted by colossi each time you do one of these 12 FG is not very useful. | ||
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
On September 15 2011 14:14 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: When HOTS comes out with the harass unit Blizz said is going to Protoss, ZvP and TvP may become remotely balanced. At the moment, may as well just play for fun and for the challenge of beating the odds. 8 Months ago P didn't have a good harass unit either (HT warp in lol?) and ZvP was simply unwinnable. I'm not saying P doesnt need one, just that your statement is bs. | ||
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