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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two.
I think protoss just needs to have more options. Protoss matchups are incredibly uneventful relatively speaking, and most of the time Protoss just sits in their own end of the map defending a 3rd base and trying to max. They dont have something like mutas, or lings, or hellions, or dropships that can be put on a seperate hotkey and used to annoy the opponent and harass while building up. There are DTs and phoenix, but those only have utility in harass and cost a lot to tech to and produce. It's not like a mutalisk in ZvT where you can keep harassing while using it for several other functions like tank sniping, army power, air control, blocking off reinforcements, etc. The warp prism buff is a step in the right direction, although most importantly I feel Protoss needs a slight nerf to its lategame and a considerable buff to its midgame.
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On September 15 2011 21:01 aZealot wrote:
So many, obviously, non-Protoss players giving their opinions on all things Protoss; it's a little puzzling.
Considering the fact that theoretically a 3rd of the time, you will be playing against another Protoss (regardless of what race you are), I see no reason why non-protoss can't comment on all-things protoss.
Let's say I'm a Z, during a ladder session, I'm likely to encounter 5-6 different P builds/style, anything ranging from a 4gate that hits sooner than 'standard' to a delayed 2 base Zealot/Archon that expands behind it. I'll have troubles with some and crush others. The ones I have trouble with, I check the replay and study it. Can you honestly say, you know how to do any and all P builds? I'm also more prone to studying their play and brush off my mistakes but that's cause i'm Z and build orders aren't 'quite' as important. I mean, when was the last time you as a P looked at your own play and said "oh shit, if I cut a zealot here and grab the 3rd assim 10secs earlier, I can start my 2nd robo 20s earlier" ?
I see no reason why people can't comment on a race they don't play. So long as you recognize that it's their view and their experience he's drawing upon. If only P should comment on all things Protoss, why do teams diversify their races? It's only by talking to other races and finding out what they hate can you tailor a strategy around.
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On September 15 2011 22:42 mibuokami wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two. I'd rather they make P & Z more like T =( More options = better game to watch.
A lot of the problems with the XvT matches stems from the extensive list of options T has at their disposal and he fact that all their units are so effective in general.
Zerg for instance has lots of options:
Mutas
Mass upgraded ground army
Infestors
Drop play
Nydus
Burrow roaches
And various combinations
That list is somewhat comparable to the terran list, but Zerg has increasing chances of dying outright to standard play the further down the list he goes.
The biggest reason cloaked banshees are viable in SC2 is because Terrans are the only race with a tangible defenders advantage.
Fix that, and you will fix Z/P
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On September 15 2011 22:55 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 22:42 mibuokami wrote:On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two. I'd rather they make P & Z more like T =( More options = better game to watch. A lot of the problems with the XvT matches stems from the extensive list of options T has at their disposal and he fact that all their units are so effective in general. Zerg for instance has lots of options: Mutas Mass upgraded ground army Infestors Drop play Nydus Burrow roaches And various combinations That list is somewhat comparable to the terran list, but Zerg has increasing chances of dying outright to standard play the further down the list he goes. The biggest reason cloaked banshees are viable in SC2 is because Terrans are the only race with a tangible defenders advantage. Fix that, and you will fix Z/P
Agreed totallY!
It's hard to balance the game because of terran main mechanics..
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On September 15 2011 23:00 eksert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 22:55 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 22:42 mibuokami wrote:On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two. I'd rather they make P & Z more like T =( More options = better game to watch. A lot of the problems with the XvT matches stems from the extensive list of options T has at their disposal and he fact that all their units are so effective in general. Zerg for instance has lots of options: Mutas Mass upgraded ground army Infestors Drop play Nydus Burrow roaches And various combinations That list is somewhat comparable to the terran list, but Zerg has increasing chances of dying outright to standard play the further down the list he goes. The biggest reason cloaked banshees are viable in SC2 is because Terrans are the only race with a tangible defenders advantage. Fix that, and you will fix Z/P Agreed totallY! It's hard to balance the game because of terran main mechanics.. ...
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On September 15 2011 13:32 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 13:14 JediGamer wrote:
Infestors are as good or better than they sounded prior to this patch. Units that can independently kill small armies and kill spellcasters while keeping the rest of the army stunned that can also mindcontrol units while being affordable and if all else fails spawn 8 eggs that can tank enormous amounts of fire and then spawn with full hp no matter how much damage the egg took. The units inside the eggs also have the depicted armor and ranged attack upgrades the zerg has, so these units progress as most zergs progress. These infestors also have the ability to burrow, can spawn and within 40 game seconds neural parasite something. the most vulnerable spellcaster in the game, It's a good unit, but it's also the most vulnerable, time consuming, and expensive of the 3 casters. It counters what it counters very well (kind of like colossi vs roaches and hydras and storm vs lings, banes, hydras and mutas) but it's extremely vulnerable to HT and it's too cost inefficient to NP or chain FG and lose the infestors in the process. It just takes 1 HT or 1 ghosts to take out a lot of infestors, you can do that with less resources and less time.
I have to disagree with that. In what way is the infestor the the most vulnerable, time consuming, and expensive of the 3 casters? At best I could give you the most expensive, but that ignores its usual support army compared to the Terran and Toss support armies.
That also doesn't negate my previous point that it is worth looking into an ability to not just remove but to turn against a player 300/200 of his army. If you made HTs faster and they had the ability to turn a decent chunk of your army on your own units you might question that. That is all Blizzard is doing. This is the PTR, that is what it is for. Like I said before, if Zerg cannot win without NP on colossus and thor then the change won't go live. I really see no downside in looking into this.
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On September 15 2011 15:52 Trealador wrote:
And for the record, even Artosis said that Stalkers are too good in the PvZ matchup, so please take your head out of your ass if you don't see the imbalance of the stalker in the early-mid game.
Tbh I don't think that the stalker is imbalanced in early-mid, more in the late game when the toss have 10/15wg and can remax in blink stalker. I have nightmare where blink stalker just smash my whole army TT
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the patch notes are good. blizzard makes the game better designed.
infestor had too many uses and now they will still be useful, but not as much as before, which is good
the only patch change that makes me wonder is the neural parasite change, it doesnt worry me too too much balance wise (i know theres ways to play the game without abusing infestors only) but to me it worries me because neural parasite is meant to take control over key units. this change doesnt actually make sense, they could nerf it in so many ways, as long as it can take control over key units which is its purpose then thats a better change than now imo
if this turns out imbalanced, if tosses suddnely start rolling everyone and everything (which i highly doubt) then blizzard is just going to revert something so its np :p
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On September 15 2011 23:06 MorroW wrote:
the patch notes are good. blizzard makes the game better designed.
infestor had too many uses and now they will still be useful, but not as much as before, which is good
the only patch change that makes me wonder is the neural parasite change, it doesnt worry me too too much balance wise (i know theres ways to play the game without abusing infestors only) but to me it worries me because neural parasite is meant to take control over key units. this change doesnt actually make sense, they could nerf it in so many ways, as long as it can take control over key units which is its purpose then thats a better change than now imo
if this turns out imbalanced, if tosses suddnely start rolling everyone and everything (which i highly doubt) then blizzard is just going to revert something so its np :p
Words of a wise man.
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On September 15 2011 21:18 topoulo wrote:
I dont see why the infestor nerf , honestly
In pro tournaments terran just dominates , the tvp matches are less than 35% now and zerg getting near 60% winrate for terrans
Does anyone have a doubht that a terran player will win the dreamhack , mlg and the upcoming gsl?
I can bet you right now that if any descent terran is into code a will prolly win that too
Yet the terran nerfs are mldly to zero , the 5 sec bunker rush is a joke and the helion nerf only affects early tvt.
Gimping infestors beyone belief and the ration in tvz will start be more than 60% for terrans while the protoss " buffs" will do nothing vs 1-1-1 or the late 10 barracs + ghosts push
It might help pvz - prolly a lot so zerg will be even less representantive than toss sooner after this joke of a patch comes out - but it wont do nothing to stop terran domination
If blizzard care for the game and not their fanbase it would have nerfed the mules and emp long ago , i guess they dont
its not suprising why lol finals have 1 million viewers , it feels much more competitive and balance
ps its obviously that forgetting counters to infestors only proves bias or too many golden leagues or cheesers here
Emp totally destroys infestors since its instah and has more range + stealth . I havent seen the best terran players for some months now loosing to any zerg actually they can win pretty easy in macro games as well and spare me its not because they have more skill
As for toss theres this ability called feedback ,
Recently the only stream i watch is liquidhero's one - which i think its by far the most promising toss player now - and owns zerg with feedback + collosus archons set up.
No doubt protoss needs buffs but nerfing zerg only makes terrans stronger
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch.
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Zerg early game buff and zerg late game nerf would make me happy
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On September 15 2011 23:06 MorroW wrote:
the patch notes are good. blizzard makes the game better designed.
infestor had too many uses and now they will still be useful, but not as much as before, which is good
the only patch change that makes me wonder is the neural parasite change, it doesnt worry me too too much balance wise (i know theres ways to play the game without abusing infestors only) but to me it worries me because neural parasite is meant to take control over key units. this change doesnt actually make sense, they could nerf it in so many ways, as long as it can take control over key units which is its purpose then thats a better change than now imo
if this turns out imbalanced, if tosses suddnely start rolling everyone and everything (which i highly doubt) then blizzard is just going to revert something so its np :p
Words of reason, should've done this post a bit earlier though, might've saved us about 200 pages of whine ;P
Still though, I concur. The infestor was the go-to unit in every situation, in every matchup. Oh the opponent is doing something else than what I scouted 5 minutes ago? Better counter it with.. well more infestors. This is bad game design, even if it's balanced. And these kind of issues are better solved early in a games life than late.
As mentioned though, the NP change doesn't really feel too logical. The remove the one reason people used it at all. Weird.
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On September 15 2011 23:06 MorroW wrote:
the patch notes are good. blizzard makes the game better designed.
infestor had too many uses and now they will still be useful, but not as much as before, which is good
the only patch change that makes me wonder is the neural parasite change, it doesnt worry me too too much balance wise (i know theres ways to play the game without abusing infestors only) but to me it worries me because neural parasite is meant to take control over key units. this change doesnt actually make sense, they could nerf it in so many ways, as long as it can take control over key units which is its purpose then thats a better change than now imo
if this turns out imbalanced, if tosses suddnely start rolling everyone and everything (which i highly doubt) then blizzard is just going to revert something so its np :p
I agree (P user here), i would prefer to see a small change to how neural works rather than nerfing it completly vs massive, but it's gonna work out okay I guess as you said infestors are still very useful.
Over all i like the patch, it's a good change for protoss, especially buffing warp prism, maybe now we will see some more use of it when it's not as fragile, and big plus for making immortals a tiny bit better, this will probably be the biggest change for helping P dealing with 1/1/1 tank marine push.
About T changes i think they are quite fair and should help out balance things, blue flame hellions were just too deadly and i think most agree on this 
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On September 15 2011 23:12 gillon wrote:
As mentioned though, the NP change doesn't really feel too logical. The remove the one reason people used it at all. Weird.
It removes one of the main reasons people used NP, but not one of the main reasons infestors were used. They are still an awesome unit. I do see NP being less useful in late game settings now, but snagging a void ray or immortal in a smaller army setting is still quite useful.
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On September 15 2011 15:25 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 14:09 -_- wrote:
Hey guys, do you love reading Belial88's thoughts on the Protoss race, but don't have enough time to dig into his meaty posts? Don't sweat it. I'll give you the rundown of his thoughts on every Protoss unit.
Voidrays: 'Unstoppable'
Carriers: 'Unstoppable'
Carriers and Voidrays: 'Unstoppable, but not imbalanced.'
Sentries: 'Probably imbalanced.'
Motherships: 'Definitely imbalanced'
Stalkers: 'The counter to every Zerg unit'
Archons: 'Uncounterable by any Zerg unit'
Zealots: 'Good against Roaches.'
Zealots and Archons: 'The hard counter to roaches.'
HT: 'By the time you've read this description, all my Infestors are already dead.'
Colossus: 'Hard counter to everything... which is why the Infestor's neural parasite has to affect massive... but... even with neural parasite... Colossus still hard counter them.'
Nice taking things out of context. Glad your actually contributing to the conversation instead of being a troll. Zealots beats roach when unmicrod, archon/zealot beats roach/hydra, never said anything about archons, motherships, sentries. Said carrier/VR is a strong ZvP composition, but it's impossible to get out in the sense that Ultra/BL/queen is good, stalkers can counter any zerg unit in certain situations or support except infestors, didn't say colossi counter everything, just corruptors are bad against them. Troll
Don't be modest, Belial88. Let me pull a couple of your quotes.
Now you just said you never commented on sentries, but that's not true.
It's like when Protoss started winning a lot with 3 gate sentry expand from MC, and sentries becoming popular and totally dominating the match-up. A lot of Zerg cried imbalance - and actually, it may very well still be an imbalanced unit."
Now I paraphrased you as saying sentries were probably imbalanced... sould I edit it to sentries "may very well still be" imbalanced?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=90
Next, in this post, you say Colossi don't counter everything. But that's not what you said on September 9th.
And Zerg has no counter to fucking colossi, it was hard enough trying to make NP work. Corruptors just don't kill Colossi fast enough, they are weaker, just as slow, lower range, and more expensive than Vikings, yet Zerg ground units die much faster than marauders.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258724¤tpage=256#5111
Dang... I may have misparaphrased you again. I stated that you said Colossus countered everything... when in reality, you simply stated that Zerg had no counter to it. My sincerest apologies. Would you like me to edit my post to quote you as saying "Zerg has no fucking counter to colossi?"
But I'm not writing an academic paper. I'm just a fan compiling your thoughts. If you want to see what you've written, just click on your profile, click posts, then search through your posts to see your thoughts on various balance topics.
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Belial88 is in every Patch notes/balance thread just spouting lies nonstop, it's best to ignore him completely.
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On September 15 2011 23:16 MattyClutch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 23:12 gillon wrote:
As mentioned though, the NP change doesn't really feel too logical. The remove the one reason people used it at all. Weird. It removes one of the main reasons people used NP, but not one of the main reasons infestors were used. They are still an awesome unit. I do see NP being less useful in late game settings now, but snagging a void ray or immortal in a smaller army setting is still quite useful.
Yea, but not useful enough to invest in researching the upgrade. Maybe they will change it so no research is needed?
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On September 15 2011 23:43 Timestreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 23:16 MattyClutch wrote:On September 15 2011 23:12 gillon wrote:
As mentioned though, the NP change doesn't really feel too logical. The remove the one reason people used it at all. Weird. It removes one of the main reasons people used NP, but not one of the main reasons infestors were used. They are still an awesome unit. I do see NP being less useful in late game settings now, but snagging a void ray or immortal in a smaller army setting is still quite useful. Yea, but not useful enough to invest in researching the upgrade. Maybe they will change it so no research is needed?
I think that would be a fair change if they stick with the current PTR NP though I would like to see that PTR'd too. Like I said NP on immortal/VR can be pretty damaging in earlier / smaller army settings. Not sure if it would be too much for them to get it earlier. More than likely I think it would be fine though.
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On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch.
This list of Terran nerfs made me lol.
Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play.
Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units.
EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf.
Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen.
The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR!
Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it.
BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up.
All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment.
Compare that to some of the gems from the other races.
Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160.
Void Ray
* Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored).
* Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored).
* Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703.
Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed.
Ultralisk
* Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings.
* Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored).
(Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%)
Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner.
Damn Terran has got it rough...
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On September 15 2011 23:31 grobo wrote:
Belial88 is in every Patch notes/balance thread just spouting lies nonstop, it's best to ignore him completely.
Yea seriously... I can't enter a thread about balance without seeing Belial88 make retarded arguments about how protoss is opopopopop.
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EPT
