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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 15 2011 23:43 Timestreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 23:16 MattyClutch wrote:On September 15 2011 23:12 gillon wrote:
As mentioned though, the NP change doesn't really feel too logical. The remove the one reason people used it at all. Weird. It removes one of the main reasons people used NP, but not one of the main reasons infestors were used. They are still an awesome unit. I do see NP being less useful in late game settings now, but snagging a void ray or immortal in a smaller army setting is still quite useful. Yea, but not useful enough to invest in researching the upgrade. Maybe they will change it so no research is needed?
Not even remotely good enough. The primary purpose of NP was to target key units which, coincidentally, happen to be mostly massive units. The current state of NP on the PTR may as well be a full removal of the ability.
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On September 15 2011 22:55 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 22:42 mibuokami wrote:On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two. I'd rather they make P & Z more like T =( More options = better game to watch. A lot of the problems with the XvT matches stems from the extensive list of options T has at their disposal and he fact that all their units are so effective in general. Zerg for instance has lots of options: Mutas Mass upgraded ground army Infestors Drop play Nydus Burrow roaches And various combinations That list is somewhat comparable to the terran list, but Zerg has increasing chances of dying outright to standard play the further down the list he goes. The biggest reason cloaked banshees are viable in SC2 is because Terrans are the only race with a tangible defenders advantage. Fix that, and you will fix Z/P
qft
T units are fine by themselves (even BFH and MULES are ok for me) and the terran lategame isn't imabalanced, the early game XvT mechanics are flawed in design. The mass scv repair stuff is absurd.
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It's not just the repair, it's the fact that T can be safe with an inferior army. Neither Z nor P ever can.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 00:02 SagaSan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 22:55 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 22:42 mibuokami wrote:On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two. I'd rather they make P & Z more like T =( More options = better game to watch. A lot of the problems with the XvT matches stems from the extensive list of options T has at their disposal and he fact that all their units are so effective in general. Zerg for instance has lots of options: Mutas Mass upgraded ground army Infestors Drop play Nydus Burrow roaches And various combinations That list is somewhat comparable to the terran list, but Zerg has increasing chances of dying outright to standard play the further down the list he goes. The biggest reason cloaked banshees are viable in SC2 is because Terrans are the only race with a tangible defenders advantage. Fix that, and you will fix Z/P qft T units are fine by themselves (even BFH and MULES are ok for me) and the terran lategame isn't imabalanced, the early game XvT mechanics are flawed in design. The mass scv repair stuff is absurd.
No, I'm 90% certain that ghosts are too good lategame. Heavy ghost play beats everything zerg has except for roaches (lol roaches vs. terran). EMP is too strong against protoss and you can't dodge it, and they can nuke and cloak on top of their two freaking amazing other spells.
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The problem with T which has been stated over and over is that it is the best designed race by far. They have an answer to everything at every point in the game and tech switches aren't that tough. Plus marauders are op.
User was warned for this post
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On September 16 2011 00:09 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:02 SagaSan wrote:On September 15 2011 22:55 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 22:42 mibuokami wrote:On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two. I'd rather they make P & Z more like T =( More options = better game to watch. A lot of the problems with the XvT matches stems from the extensive list of options T has at their disposal and he fact that all their units are so effective in general. Zerg for instance has lots of options: Mutas Mass upgraded ground army Infestors Drop play Nydus Burrow roaches And various combinations That list is somewhat comparable to the terran list, but Zerg has increasing chances of dying outright to standard play the further down the list he goes. The biggest reason cloaked banshees are viable in SC2 is because Terrans are the only race with a tangible defenders advantage. Fix that, and you will fix Z/P qft T units are fine by themselves (even BFH and MULES are ok for me) and the terran lategame isn't imabalanced, the early game XvT mechanics are flawed in design. The mass scv repair stuff is absurd. No, I'm 90% certain that ghosts are too good lategame. Heavy ghost play beats everything zerg has except for roaches (lol roaches vs. terran). EMP is too strong against protoss and you can't dodge it, and they can nuke and cloak on top of their two freaking amazing other spells.
Since EMP is instant, I'm thinking that EMP should have a timer where multiple EMPs aren't useful within a certain amount of time (say, like 5 secs consecutive EMPs don't work on units already hit with it) might go a long way to helping Protoss deal with mass Ghost in late game.
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On September 16 2011 00:11 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:09 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 00:02 SagaSan wrote:On September 15 2011 22:55 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 22:42 mibuokami wrote:On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two. I'd rather they make P & Z more like T =( More options = better game to watch. A lot of the problems with the XvT matches stems from the extensive list of options T has at their disposal and he fact that all their units are so effective in general. Zerg for instance has lots of options: Mutas Mass upgraded ground army Infestors Drop play Nydus Burrow roaches And various combinations That list is somewhat comparable to the terran list, but Zerg has increasing chances of dying outright to standard play the further down the list he goes. The biggest reason cloaked banshees are viable in SC2 is because Terrans are the only race with a tangible defenders advantage. Fix that, and you will fix Z/P qft T units are fine by themselves (even BFH and MULES are ok for me) and the terran lategame isn't imabalanced, the early game XvT mechanics are flawed in design. The mass scv repair stuff is absurd. No, I'm 90% certain that ghosts are too good lategame. Heavy ghost play beats everything zerg has except for roaches (lol roaches vs. terran). EMP is too strong against protoss and you can't dodge it, and they can nuke and cloak on top of their two freaking amazing other spells. Since EMP is instant, I'm thinking that EMP should have a timer where multiple EMPs aren't useful within a certain amount of time (say, like 5 secs consecutive EMPs don't work on units already hit with it) might go a long way to helping Protoss deal with mass Ghost in late game.
That was in the game before, as a bug.
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On September 15 2011 22:49 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two. I think protoss just needs to have more options. Protoss matchups are incredibly uneventful relatively speaking, and most of the time Protoss just sits in their own end of the map defending a 3rd base and trying to max. They dont have something like mutas, or lings, or hellions, or dropships that can be put on a seperate hotkey and used to annoy the opponent and harass while building up. There are DTs and phoenix, but those only have utility in harass and cost a lot to tech to and produce. It's not like a mutalisk in ZvT where you can keep harassing while using it for several other functions like tank sniping, army power, air control, blocking off reinforcements, etc. The warp prism buff is a step in the right direction, although most importantly I feel Protoss needs a slight nerf to its lategame and a considerable buff to its midgame.
I agree with this post!
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On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough...
The amulet nerf was needed because terrans were unable to beat protoss lategame.
The fungal growth nerf was needed because of the damage buff.
The warpgate nerf was needed because of pvp
Voidray nerf was needed because voidray allins were imbalanced
Ultralisks were nerfed because they were too good.
Every nerf was needed and never changed the whole game. It never crippled the zergs / protosses.
All of these Zerg and Protoss nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. We still see voidrays, we still see mass fungal growth, we still see ultralisks (and we will see many more in the future).
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I was random and again the horrible changes are as numerous as the reasonable ones.
Neural Parasite's purpose was to parasite important units. The low time it persisted was already outrageous. The Hellions never lived up to their role as a replacement for the Vulture. Instead of adjusting it in another way, their only idea is another damage nerf. Again, the same patch pattern, again it just becomes more boring.
The Cloaking Field lag is ridiculous and shows, that Blizzard lacks programming skills.
Furthermore two APM values should be recorded. A raw one and an efficient.
Again, there a lot of necessary adjustments, but Blizzard keeps throwing in bad and unimaginative balance changes.
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On September 16 2011 00:16 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 22:49 TheSubtleArt wrote:On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two. I think protoss just needs to have more options. Protoss matchups are incredibly uneventful relatively speaking, and most of the time Protoss just sits in their own end of the map defending a 3rd base and trying to max. They dont have something like mutas, or lings, or hellions, or dropships that can be put on a seperate hotkey and used to annoy the opponent and harass while building up. There are DTs and phoenix, but those only have utility in harass and cost a lot to tech to and produce. It's not like a mutalisk in ZvT where you can keep harassing while using it for several other functions like tank sniping, army power, air control, blocking off reinforcements, etc. The warp prism buff is a step in the right direction, although most importantly I feel Protoss needs a slight nerf to its lategame and a considerable buff to its midgame. Well that dude you quoted is wrong. DT's can be morphed into archons and keep map control to not lose out and "waste money" on tech. Phoenix can be used to pick up seige tanks in pvt, or pick up infestors/ghosts etc etc. Protoss HAS harass units, you just feel like they cannot be used after a certain point, and my answer to that is you're incorrect. its about proper transitions. Anyways, i still do agree the protoss could use a different harass unit. i'm pretty sure the dev team stated that they are looking into adding a harass unit for toss, a seige unit for zerg, and nothing for terran cause terran op  in HOTS. lol :D I agree with this post!
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On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough...
They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75%
It's so hard being Terran ;_;
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On September 15 2011 23:25 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 15:25 Belial88 wrote:On September 15 2011 14:09 -_- wrote:
Hey guys, do you love reading Belial88's thoughts on the Protoss race, but don't have enough time to dig into his meaty posts? Don't sweat it. I'll give you the rundown of his thoughts on every Protoss unit.
Voidrays: 'Unstoppable'
Carriers: 'Unstoppable'
Carriers and Voidrays: 'Unstoppable, but not imbalanced.'
Sentries: 'Probably imbalanced.'
Motherships: 'Definitely imbalanced'
Stalkers: 'The counter to every Zerg unit'
Archons: 'Uncounterable by any Zerg unit'
Zealots: 'Good against Roaches.'
Zealots and Archons: 'The hard counter to roaches.'
HT: 'By the time you've read this description, all my Infestors are already dead.'
Colossus: 'Hard counter to everything... which is why the Infestor's neural parasite has to affect massive... but... even with neural parasite... Colossus still hard counter them.'
Nice taking things out of context. Glad your actually contributing to the conversation instead of being a troll. Zealots beats roach when unmicrod, archon/zealot beats roach/hydra, never said anything about archons, motherships, sentries. Said carrier/VR is a strong ZvP composition, but it's impossible to get out in the sense that Ultra/BL/queen is good, stalkers can counter any zerg unit in certain situations or support except infestors, didn't say colossi counter everything, just corruptors are bad against them. Troll Don't be modest, Belial88. Let me pull a couple of your quotes. Now you just said you never commented on sentries, but that's not true. Show nested quote + It's like when Protoss started winning a lot with 3 gate sentry expand from MC, and sentries becoming popular and totally dominating the match-up. A lot of Zerg cried imbalance - and actually, it may very well still be an imbalanced unit." Now I paraphrased you as saying sentries were probably imbalanced... sould I edit it to sentries "may very well still be" imbalanced? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=90Next, in this post, you say Colossi don't counter everything. But that's not what you said on September 9th. Show nested quote +
And Zerg has no counter to fucking colossi, it was hard enough trying to make NP work. Corruptors just don't kill Colossi fast enough, they are weaker, just as slow, lower range, and more expensive than Vikings, yet Zerg ground units die much faster than marauders.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258724¤tpage=256#5111Dang... I may have misparaphrased you again. I stated that you said Colossus countered everything... when in reality, you simply stated that Zerg had no counter to it. My sincerest apologies. Would you like me to edit my post to quote you as saying "Zerg has no fucking counter to colossi?" But I'm not writing an academic paper. I'm just a fan compiling your thoughts. If you want to see what you've written, just click on your profile, click posts, then search through your posts to see your thoughts on various balance topics.
Belial88 is either telling straight up lies, making arguments with factual inconsistencies and doing it all with a spiteful attitude. I've already called him out multiple times.
Funny that other people have the same issue with him.
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On September 15 2011 23:31 grobo wrote:
Belial88 is in every Patch notes/balance thread just spouting lies nonstop, it's best to ignore him completely.
Yes, let's do this. I agree 100%.
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On September 16 2011 00:18 Perscienter wrote:
I was random and again the horrible changes are as numerous as the reasonable ones.
Neural Parasite's purpose was to parasite important units. The low time it persisted was already outrageous. The Hellions never lived up to their role as a replacement for the Vulture. Instead of adjusting it in another way, their only idea is another damage nerf. Again, the same patch pattern, again it just becomes more boring.
The Cloaking Field lag is ridiculous and shows, that Blizzard lacks programming skills.
Furthermore two APM values should be recorded. A raw one and an efficient.
Again, there a lot of necessary adjustments, but Blizzard keeps throwing in bad and unimaginative balance changes.
People. Please think for a moment before spouting random accusations. You just said Blizzard sucks at programming......Really? It's things like this, that pretty much negates anything and everything else you say. Programming games like this is NOT easy to start with, and considering how bug-free SC2 is, it's just amazing that you would even think this.
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On September 16 2011 00:09 pewpew444 wrote:
The problem with T which has been stated over and over is that it is the best designed race by far. They have an answer to everything at every point in the game and tech switches aren't that tough. Plus marauders are op.
I see this being fixed over time, as no doubt Z and P will be focused in their respective expansions. I have hope for SC2 in the future, it's just a problem with the present.
2014 can't come soon enough, I guess.
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On September 16 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75% It's so hard being Terran ;_;
When bunker salvaging was free I knew something was wrong with terran. It's such a basic design flaw. How can you get something, use it, and than return it for all the cost. It's against the nature of investment and reward that is all around in StarCraft.
I'm really sad that p v x games are in general really boring and repetitive. It shows that there is something wrong with the race. Just think how stupid it is when we all get hyped because someone is using a warprism. "OMG he made a warpprism COOL!!!!". We are so lame we might as well acknowledge it.
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On September 16 2011 00:23 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:18 Perscienter wrote:
I was random and again the horrible changes are as numerous as the reasonable ones.
Neural Parasite's purpose was to parasite important units. The low time it persisted was already outrageous. The Hellions never lived up to their role as a replacement for the Vulture. Instead of adjusting it in another way, their only idea is another damage nerf. Again, the same patch pattern, again it just becomes more boring.
The Cloaking Field lag is ridiculous and shows, that Blizzard lacks programming skills.
Furthermore two APM values should be recorded. A raw one and an efficient.
Again, there a lot of necessary adjustments, but Blizzard keeps throwing in bad and unimaginative balance changes. People. Please think for a moment before spouting random accusations. You just said Blizzard sucks at programming......Really? It's things like this, that pretty much negates anything and everything else you say. Programming games like this is NOT easy to start with, and considering how bug-free SC2 is, it's just amazing that you would even think this.
Then why do they not let that darn thing and the effect pre-load or design it in a way, that that wouldn't be necessary?
A balance adjustment born out of the necessity to fix a ram-management issue... just horrible.
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Just curious, when do you think they are going to drop this patch, I'm excited for the changes that they've added, not to mention some of the simple UI stuff.
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On September 16 2011 00:32 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75% It's so hard being Terran ;_; When bunker salvaging was free I knew something was wrong with terran. It's such a basic design flaw. How can you get something, use it, and than return it for all the cost. It's against the nature of investment and reward that is all around in StarCraft. I'm really sad that p v x games are in general really boring and repetitive. It shows that there is something wrong with the race. Just think how stupid it is when we all get hyped because someone is using a warprism. "OMG he made a warpprism COOL!!!!". We are so lame we might as well acknowledge it.
I really think Protoss has a lot more utility to their units that they haven't fully discovered yet, it just needs more time. Like, even only just within the last couple weeks has Protoss figured out that Phoenix can be used to break Neural Parasite and pick off Infestors in big engagements, it's absolutely sick. Even like, Carriers, sure they take ages to build, I'm not saying they're easy to make but like going up against a Ling/Infestor style Zergs don't even want to be utilizing Corruptors, yet if Protoss are utilizing Phoenix and maybe mixing in a couple Carriers and maybe a Mothership I can imagine it would just about force a Zerg into making some Corruptors.
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EPT
