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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 01:27 Yaotzin wrote:
Only differences between carriers in BW and now are a) bio is way > mech, and carriers are an anti mech unit, and b) Protoss' two biggest, baddest units (carrier and collossus) are both killed by the same unit, which is dumb.
It would still see much more use if mech became dominant somehow.
This is also not true, the SC2 carrier is worse for other reasons.
First, the interceptors don't auto-repair themselves to full when they return to the carrier, so they die really easily. Second, the SC2 carrier has less armor. Third, the interceptor attacks twice for low damage each shot, so high armored targets take significantly less damage, especially if they have armor upgrades, which they almost always do by the time carriers are on the field.
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On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough...
Come on dude, try to atleast make it subtle that you don't hate Terran.
Those nerfs on Zerg and Protoss were equally reasonable.
Khaydarin Amulet nerf prevented instant psi storms which made end game Protoss practically impossible to beat. Losing a battle? Warp in HTs and just psi storm everything! The upgrade was stupid and should never have been like that to begin with.
I am not quite sure why you bolded the Fungal Growth change. It were a "change", not a nerf or buff (but clearly, 90% of people would think it were a huge buff). Double the DPS for half the stun is a good trade.
Warp gate nerf is another obvious nerf. I don't know why you bring these "huge" nerfs up and talk like they weren't justified.
Void ray is a fair change, end game void ray was unstoppable.
Ultralisk change (iirc) was for PvZ more than TvZ.
Its funny how you make the BC nerf and the Medivac nerf sound like "holy shit they were ridiculously broken before!!!", when in fact, people were more thinking "oh, that's reasonable but not necessarily very important". Retrospectively they look good due to how the game has evolved, but at the time they weren't anything big.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 01:32 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... Come on dude, try to atleast make it subtle that you don't hate Terran. Those nerfs on Zerg and Protoss were equally reasonable. Khaydarin Amulet nerf prevented instant psi storms which made end game Protoss practically impossible to beat. Losing a battle? Warp in HTs and just psi storm everything! The upgrade was stupid and should never have been like that to begin with. I am not quite sure why you bolded the Fungal Growth change. It were a "change", not a nerf or buff (but clearly, 90% of people would think it were a huge buff). Double the DPS for half the stun is a good trade. Warp gate nerf is another obvious nerf. I don't know why you bring these "huge" nerfs up and talk like they weren't justified. Void ray is a fair change, end game void ray was unstoppable. Ultralisk change (iirc) was for PvZ more than TvZ.
Kaydarin Amulet could have been nerfed instead of removed from the game entirely.
I'm going to use the standard typical argument that keeps being brought up by people here: The void rays were unstoppable at the time because people hadn't figured them out yet and taken enough time for it. The upgrade did not need to be removed from the game.
Oh, and I'll say it now: late game heavy ghost play is unstoppable, nerf ghosts.
Hey! Same logic! That must mean it should be nerfed, right?
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On September 16 2011 01:22 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:44 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 00:32 ceaRshaf wrote:On September 16 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75% It's so hard being Terran ;_; When bunker salvaging was free I knew something was wrong with terran. It's such a basic design flaw. How can you get something, use it, and than return it for all the cost. It's against the nature of investment and reward that is all around in StarCraft. I'm really sad that p v x games are in general really boring and repetitive. It shows that there is something wrong with the race. Just think how stupid it is when we all get hyped because someone is using a warprism. "OMG he made a warpprism COOL!!!!". We are so lame we might as well acknowledge it. I really think Protoss has a lot more utility to their units that they haven't fully discovered yet, it just needs more time. Like, even only just within the last couple weeks has Protoss figured out that Phoenix can be used to break Neural Parasite and pick off Infestors in big engagements, it's absolutely sick. Even like, Carriers, sure they take ages to build, I'm not saying they're easy to make but like going up against a Ling/Infestor style Zergs don't even want to be utilizing Corruptors, yet if Protoss are utilizing Phoenix and maybe mixing in a couple Carriers and maybe a Mothership I can imagine it would just about force a Zerg into making some Corruptors. Carriers actually just suck. They have bad DPS for their cost and time to build (yeah, if you just happen to have some for free that's great, but you don't.) They have lower DPS than several other units, at max interceptors, which also get killed and cost money. Plus, until next patch, zerg could neural your carriers! Oh, and they aren't that good at tanking damage due to a lousy 2 armor (in comparison to the 4 armor they had in BW or the 3 of the BC now). Not to mention they do almost no damage at all without air upgrades due to everything having good armor upgrades by the time they come out, and unless you've been going heavy air all game (which is suicide), you won't have the air upgrades you need for them.
See, I'm not interested in this at all. Sure you can go on and on about all the standard XYZ reasons why you should completely dismiss a unit that I keep hearing over and over again but I'm more interested in figuring undiscovered ways to make these things work regardless. Just beating a dead horse and putting down a unit completely seems entirely counterproductive.
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On September 16 2011 01:06 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:58 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 00:52 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 00:44 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 00:32 ceaRshaf wrote:On September 16 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75% It's so hard being Terran ;_; When bunker salvaging was free I knew something was wrong with terran. It's such a basic design flaw. How can you get something, use it, and than return it for all the cost. It's against the nature of investment and reward that is all around in StarCraft. I'm really sad that p v x games are in general really boring and repetitive. It shows that there is something wrong with the race. Just think how stupid it is when we all get hyped because someone is using a warprism. "OMG he made a warpprism COOL!!!!". We are so lame we might as well acknowledge it. I really think Protoss has a lot more utility to their units that they haven't fully discovered yet, it just needs more time. Like, even only just within the last couple weeks has Protoss figured out that Phoenix can be used to break Neural Parasite and pick off Infestors in big engagements, it's absolutely sick. Even like, Carriers, sure they take ages to build, I'm not saying they're easy to make but like going up against a Ling/Infestor style Zergs don't even want to be utilizing Corruptors, yet if Protoss are utilizing Phoenix and maybe mixing in a couple Carriers and maybe a Mothership I can imagine it would just about force a Zerg into making some Corruptors. Lol why would anyone ever go carrier versus infestor...you can snipe a couple infestors but if they mass them they'll always be able to neural parasite and you just lost 6 supply, 350-250, 25 for each interceptor. Corruptors are also cost-effective versus phoenix and if not cost-efficient versus carriers, zerg will still have a bigger econ and be able to mass corruptors much quicker. Maybe if the neural parasite change goes through, but there is absolutely no reason to go carrier against ling/infestor lol. Infestors are actually really, really bad at taking out Carriers. :/ If you control your Carriers decently you can easily stay well out of range of Neural Parasite. Sure Zerg can build Corruptors, but isn't that a good thing as long as you aren't over-committing too much into Carriers? Hydras do really well vs Carriers but suck against just about everything else. This is almost entirely theory crafting though since I almost never actually see Carriers, but I do know on the rare occasions I do see Carriers or Battlecruisers they scare the crap out of me. I need to practice more on my Protoss play to put these kinds of things into action since people never believe me unless I physically prove it myself for some reason. Carriers launch interceptors at 8 range, neural parasite is 9 range. Just because something works against you doesn't mean it is actually viable. I've seen Huk try it against Morrow in a 200/200 split map situation and Morrow won with mass infestor/broodlord maybe losing 4 supply.
Carriers are air units, and that means they can stack.
Yes 1 infestor can NP 1 carrier. But when they reach a critical mass, it's no longer possible for 2 reasons:
- You can't select all of them individually, If you don't NP even one, all your infestors die.
- Your infestors can't stack, this means your infestors will block each-others, and unless you manage to get a huge concave and synchronize perfectly your infestors, they will enter the carriers range and die.
The problem with carriers is that you can not survive long enough to reach a critical mass, but once you get it they are unstoppable.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 01:34 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:22 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 00:44 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 00:32 ceaRshaf wrote:On September 16 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75% It's so hard being Terran ;_; When bunker salvaging was free I knew something was wrong with terran. It's such a basic design flaw. How can you get something, use it, and than return it for all the cost. It's against the nature of investment and reward that is all around in StarCraft. I'm really sad that p v x games are in general really boring and repetitive. It shows that there is something wrong with the race. Just think how stupid it is when we all get hyped because someone is using a warprism. "OMG he made a warpprism COOL!!!!". We are so lame we might as well acknowledge it. I really think Protoss has a lot more utility to their units that they haven't fully discovered yet, it just needs more time. Like, even only just within the last couple weeks has Protoss figured out that Phoenix can be used to break Neural Parasite and pick off Infestors in big engagements, it's absolutely sick. Even like, Carriers, sure they take ages to build, I'm not saying they're easy to make but like going up against a Ling/Infestor style Zergs don't even want to be utilizing Corruptors, yet if Protoss are utilizing Phoenix and maybe mixing in a couple Carriers and maybe a Mothership I can imagine it would just about force a Zerg into making some Corruptors. Carriers actually just suck. They have bad DPS for their cost and time to build (yeah, if you just happen to have some for free that's great, but you don't.) They have lower DPS than several other units, at max interceptors, which also get killed and cost money. Plus, until next patch, zerg could neural your carriers! Oh, and they aren't that good at tanking damage due to a lousy 2 armor (in comparison to the 4 armor they had in BW or the 3 of the BC now). Not to mention they do almost no damage at all without air upgrades due to everything having good armor upgrades by the time they come out, and unless you've been going heavy air all game (which is suicide), you won't have the air upgrades you need for them. See, I'm not interested in this at all. Sure you can go on and on about all the standard XYZ reasons why you should completely dismiss a unit that I keep hearing over and over again but I'm more interested in figuring undiscovered ways to make these things work regardless. Just beating a dead horse and putting down a unit completely seems entirely counterproductive.
I've been trying carriers out as often as I possibly can because I love the idea of the unit and loved the unit in BW. Carriers are freaking cool. They just suck horribly in this game, especially with a ridiculously long build time of 120 seconds, during which time the 350/250 you paid for the unit is doing nothing for you. Then it comes out and you have to wait even longer for it to build the interceptors. I'd love for them to have a use, but since terrans don't play pure mech vs. protoss and even when they do, they have vikings, as well as other better choices for that money for protoss, there's no reason to ever use them. No splash, not high dps single target for the cost (the thor which is cheaper and builds faster does WAY more DPS for example), it's too slow to really micro, and there's a huge window of time where you're absurdly vulnerable while trying to field them.
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On September 16 2011 01:34 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:32 Consummate wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... Come on dude, try to atleast make it subtle that you don't hate Terran. Those nerfs on Zerg and Protoss were equally reasonable. Khaydarin Amulet nerf prevented instant psi storms which made end game Protoss practically impossible to beat. Losing a battle? Warp in HTs and just psi storm everything! The upgrade was stupid and should never have been like that to begin with. I am not quite sure why you bolded the Fungal Growth change. It were a "change", not a nerf or buff (but clearly, 90% of people would think it were a huge buff). Double the DPS for half the stun is a good trade. Warp gate nerf is another obvious nerf. I don't know why you bring these "huge" nerfs up and talk like they weren't justified. Void ray is a fair change, end game void ray was unstoppable. Ultralisk change (iirc) was for PvZ more than TvZ. Kaydarin Amulet could have been nerfed instead of removed from the game entirely. I'm going to use the standard typical argument that keeps being brought up by people here: The void rays were unstoppable at the time because people hadn't figured them out yet and taken enough time for it. The upgrade did not need to be removed from the game. Oh, and I'll say it now: late game heavy ghost play is unstoppable, nerf ghosts. Hey! Same logic! That must mean it should be nerfed, right?
No, it were unstoppable because fully charged void rays couldn't be killed, and you just A moved and afked to come back to a victory screen. The movement upgrade, iirc, they removed because units intended to counter them couldn't because they couldn't kite.
Mass ghosts need to be microed, the only thing that could possibly be be OP about them is EMP. Complaining about anything else being overpowered in the Ghost is absolutely ridiculous.
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On September 16 2011 01:34 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:22 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 00:44 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 00:32 ceaRshaf wrote:On September 16 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75% It's so hard being Terran ;_; When bunker salvaging was free I knew something was wrong with terran. It's such a basic design flaw. How can you get something, use it, and than return it for all the cost. It's against the nature of investment and reward that is all around in StarCraft. I'm really sad that p v x games are in general really boring and repetitive. It shows that there is something wrong with the race. Just think how stupid it is when we all get hyped because someone is using a warprism. "OMG he made a warpprism COOL!!!!". We are so lame we might as well acknowledge it. I really think Protoss has a lot more utility to their units that they haven't fully discovered yet, it just needs more time. Like, even only just within the last couple weeks has Protoss figured out that Phoenix can be used to break Neural Parasite and pick off Infestors in big engagements, it's absolutely sick. Even like, Carriers, sure they take ages to build, I'm not saying they're easy to make but like going up against a Ling/Infestor style Zergs don't even want to be utilizing Corruptors, yet if Protoss are utilizing Phoenix and maybe mixing in a couple Carriers and maybe a Mothership I can imagine it would just about force a Zerg into making some Corruptors. Carriers actually just suck. They have bad DPS for their cost and time to build (yeah, if you just happen to have some for free that's great, but you don't.) They have lower DPS than several other units, at max interceptors, which also get killed and cost money. Plus, until next patch, zerg could neural your carriers! Oh, and they aren't that good at tanking damage due to a lousy 2 armor (in comparison to the 4 armor they had in BW or the 3 of the BC now). Not to mention they do almost no damage at all without air upgrades due to everything having good armor upgrades by the time they come out, and unless you've been going heavy air all game (which is suicide), you won't have the air upgrades you need for them. See, I'm not interested in this at all. Sure you can go on and on about all the standard XYZ reasons why you should completely dismiss a unit that I keep hearing over and over again but I'm more interested in figuring undiscovered ways to make these things work regardless. Just beating a dead horse and putting down a unit completely seems entirely counterproductive.
Well most people aren't blindly saying Carriers aren't all that great. They are making statements based on experience. They have tried the unit out.
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On September 16 2011 01:31 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:27 Yaotzin wrote:
Only differences between carriers in BW and now are a) bio is way > mech, and carriers are an anti mech unit, and b) Protoss' two biggest, baddest units (carrier and collossus) are both killed by the same unit, which is dumb.
It would still see much more use if mech became dominant somehow. This is also not true, the SC2 carrier is worse for other reasons. First, the interceptors don't auto-repair themselves to full when they return to the carrier, so they die really easily. Second, the SC2 carrier has less armor. Third, the interceptor attacks twice for low damage each shot, so high armored targets take significantly less damage, especially if they have armor upgrades, which they almost always do by the time carriers are on the field.
These aren't important issues though.
1) Interceptors healing themselves wouldn't help against marines - they would still get absolutely roflstomped.
2) Carriers having more armor would help against marines, but then they'd have no interceptors left against marines so who cares? Against bigger hitters (vikings) it wouldn't help much - Terran would just need 1 or 2 more vikings to 1 shot.
The 2-shots thing is..debatable. You should have +1 minimum, considering it takes barely longer than making 1 carrier  So +2 by the time you're really using them is very reasonable. Depending on circumstances this could mean +2 over your opponent, or rarely -1 on them. It's something that has plusses and minuses depending on circumstance. A wash overall imo.
Obviously there are many, many differences between the games - from no goliaths to vikings to marine power to chronoboost. I think that only the things I listed are preventing carriers from seeing at least some use, however.
Random aside: One problem carriers do not have is their buildtime. They are built faster than in BW even without chronoboost!
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United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 01:39 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:34 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 01:32 Consummate wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... Come on dude, try to atleast make it subtle that you don't hate Terran. Those nerfs on Zerg and Protoss were equally reasonable. Khaydarin Amulet nerf prevented instant psi storms which made end game Protoss practically impossible to beat. Losing a battle? Warp in HTs and just psi storm everything! The upgrade was stupid and should never have been like that to begin with. I am not quite sure why you bolded the Fungal Growth change. It were a "change", not a nerf or buff (but clearly, 90% of people would think it were a huge buff). Double the DPS for half the stun is a good trade. Warp gate nerf is another obvious nerf. I don't know why you bring these "huge" nerfs up and talk like they weren't justified. Void ray is a fair change, end game void ray was unstoppable. Ultralisk change (iirc) was for PvZ more than TvZ. Kaydarin Amulet could have been nerfed instead of removed from the game entirely. I'm going to use the standard typical argument that keeps being brought up by people here: The void rays were unstoppable at the time because people hadn't figured them out yet and taken enough time for it. The upgrade did not need to be removed from the game. Oh, and I'll say it now: late game heavy ghost play is unstoppable, nerf ghosts. Hey! Same logic! That must mean it should be nerfed, right? No, it were unstoppable because fully charged void rays couldn't be killed, and you just A moved and afked to come back to a victory screen. The movement upgrade, iirc, they removed because units intended to counter them couldn't because they couldn't kite. Mass ghosts need to be microed, the only thing that could possibly be be OP about them is EMP. Complaining about anything else being overpowered in the Ghost is absolutely ridiculous.
Mass ghost owns everything zerg can do late game, except mass roach, which is the dumbest thing you can do against terran since they always make tanks in TvZ. You just snipe brood lords and ultralisks, snipe and emp infestors, snipe banelings, and they do great damage vs. light units like lings and mutalisks with their auto-attack. Snipe pretty much hard counters the entire zerg race. EMP pretty much hard counters the entire protoss race.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 01:41 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:31 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 01:27 Yaotzin wrote:
Only differences between carriers in BW and now are a) bio is way > mech, and carriers are an anti mech unit, and b) Protoss' two biggest, baddest units (carrier and collossus) are both killed by the same unit, which is dumb.
It would still see much more use if mech became dominant somehow. This is also not true, the SC2 carrier is worse for other reasons. First, the interceptors don't auto-repair themselves to full when they return to the carrier, so they die really easily. Second, the SC2 carrier has less armor. Third, the interceptor attacks twice for low damage each shot, so high armored targets take significantly less damage, especially if they have armor upgrades, which they almost always do by the time carriers are on the field. These aren't important issues though. 1) Interceptors healing themselves wouldn't help against marines - they would still get absolutely roflstomped. 2) Carriers having more armor would help against marines, but then they'd have no interceptors left against marines so who cares? Against bigger hitters (vikings) it wouldn't help much - Terran would just need 1 or 2 more vikings to 1 shot. The 2-shots thing is..debatable. You should have +1 minimum, considering it takes barely longer than making 1 carrier So +2 by the time you're really using them is very reasonable. Depending on circumstances this could mean +2 over your opponent, or rarely -1 on them. It's something that has plusses and minuses depending on circumstance. A wash overall imo. Obviously there are many, many differences between the games - from no goliaths to vikings to marine power to chronoboost. I think that only the things I listed are preventing carriers from seeing at least some use, however. Random aside: One problem carriers do not have is their buildtime. They are built faster than in BW even without chronoboost!
In brood war it was easier as protoss to hold on while the carriers were being made, because terran couldn't just stim and run their whole army into your base, they had to slow push their tanks. Plus, your gateway units were a lot stronger and could hold their own in a straight up fight (gateway units in BW actually beat terran infantry instead of the other way around here). Plus, the pace of the game was slower in general.
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On September 16 2011 01:34 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:22 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 00:44 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 00:32 ceaRshaf wrote:On September 16 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75% It's so hard being Terran ;_; When bunker salvaging was free I knew something was wrong with terran. It's such a basic design flaw. How can you get something, use it, and than return it for all the cost. It's against the nature of investment and reward that is all around in StarCraft. I'm really sad that p v x games are in general really boring and repetitive. It shows that there is something wrong with the race. Just think how stupid it is when we all get hyped because someone is using a warprism. "OMG he made a warpprism COOL!!!!". We are so lame we might as well acknowledge it. I really think Protoss has a lot more utility to their units that they haven't fully discovered yet, it just needs more time. Like, even only just within the last couple weeks has Protoss figured out that Phoenix can be used to break Neural Parasite and pick off Infestors in big engagements, it's absolutely sick. Even like, Carriers, sure they take ages to build, I'm not saying they're easy to make but like going up against a Ling/Infestor style Zergs don't even want to be utilizing Corruptors, yet if Protoss are utilizing Phoenix and maybe mixing in a couple Carriers and maybe a Mothership I can imagine it would just about force a Zerg into making some Corruptors. Carriers actually just suck. They have bad DPS for their cost and time to build (yeah, if you just happen to have some for free that's great, but you don't.) They have lower DPS than several other units, at max interceptors, which also get killed and cost money. Plus, until next patch, zerg could neural your carriers! Oh, and they aren't that good at tanking damage due to a lousy 2 armor (in comparison to the 4 armor they had in BW or the 3 of the BC now). Not to mention they do almost no damage at all without air upgrades due to everything having good armor upgrades by the time they come out, and unless you've been going heavy air all game (which is suicide), you won't have the air upgrades you need for them. See, I'm not interested in this at all. Sure you can go on and on about all the standard XYZ reasons why you should completely dismiss a unit that I keep hearing over and over again but I'm more interested in figuring undiscovered ways to make these things work regardless. Just beating a dead horse and putting down a unit completely seems entirely counterproductive.
You can try to figure out whatever you wish, but don't act like it's going to somehow solve the current problems with Protoss. Carriers have been investigated by top Protoss players, and they have been found to suck. A few days ago HuK was trying them out again against Jinro, and they failed miserably.
Your suggestion to get Carriers against Ling/Infestor is just so completely divorced from reality, that it would take a whole essay to point out why that's not a solution to anything, and not even the correct problem.
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On September 16 2011 01:42 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:39 Consummate wrote:On September 16 2011 01:34 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 01:32 Consummate wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... Come on dude, try to atleast make it subtle that you don't hate Terran. Those nerfs on Zerg and Protoss were equally reasonable. Khaydarin Amulet nerf prevented instant psi storms which made end game Protoss practically impossible to beat. Losing a battle? Warp in HTs and just psi storm everything! The upgrade was stupid and should never have been like that to begin with. I am not quite sure why you bolded the Fungal Growth change. It were a "change", not a nerf or buff (but clearly, 90% of people would think it were a huge buff). Double the DPS for half the stun is a good trade. Warp gate nerf is another obvious nerf. I don't know why you bring these "huge" nerfs up and talk like they weren't justified. Void ray is a fair change, end game void ray was unstoppable. Ultralisk change (iirc) was for PvZ more than TvZ. Kaydarin Amulet could have been nerfed instead of removed from the game entirely. I'm going to use the standard typical argument that keeps being brought up by people here: The void rays were unstoppable at the time because people hadn't figured them out yet and taken enough time for it. The upgrade did not need to be removed from the game. Oh, and I'll say it now: late game heavy ghost play is unstoppable, nerf ghosts. Hey! Same logic! That must mean it should be nerfed, right? No, it were unstoppable because fully charged void rays couldn't be killed, and you just A moved and afked to come back to a victory screen. The movement upgrade, iirc, they removed because units intended to counter them couldn't because they couldn't kite. Mass ghosts need to be microed, the only thing that could possibly be be OP about them is EMP. Complaining about anything else being overpowered in the Ghost is absolutely ridiculous. Mass ghost owns everything zerg can do late game, except mass roach, which is the dumbest thing you can do against terran since they always make tanks in TvZ. You just snipe brood lords and ultralisks, snipe and emp infestors, snipe banelings, and they do great damage vs. light units like lings and mutalisks with their auto-attack. Snipe pretty much hard counters the entire zerg race. EMP pretty much hard counters the entire protoss race.
The amount of micro required to pull off all those snipes while macroing and microing other stuff is mind boggling. I don't really see a problem with how impressive your micro would have to be to do that, otherwise it would fail hard and instantly lose you the game.
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It's way too early to say ghosts are a problem. Top Terrans have only just started using them against Zerg - after being molested by infestor/broodlord for a long time. In theory they are godly and all, but theory is so often a load of shit in practice.
Against Protoss Blizzard appears to be going for the templar-bus approach, which is a cool and skillful way of stopping ghosts, which people say they want. Give it time to see how it goes.
In brood war it was easier as protoss to hold on while the carriers were being made, because terran couldn't just stim and run their whole army into your base, they had to slow push their tanks. Plus, your gateway units were a lot stronger and could hold their own in a straight up fight (gateway units in BW actually beat terran infantry instead of the other way around here). Plus, the pace of the game was slower in general.
Yes I agree the transition is an issue, though I think there's less potential for them just a-moving you if they're going mech (which would be why you're going carriers). Transition issues are the biggest opening for new discoveries, though. Look how many people complete skip collosi these days - that used to be considered 100% impossible.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 01:47 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:42 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 01:39 Consummate wrote:On September 16 2011 01:34 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 01:32 Consummate wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... Come on dude, try to atleast make it subtle that you don't hate Terran. Those nerfs on Zerg and Protoss were equally reasonable. Khaydarin Amulet nerf prevented instant psi storms which made end game Protoss practically impossible to beat. Losing a battle? Warp in HTs and just psi storm everything! The upgrade was stupid and should never have been like that to begin with. I am not quite sure why you bolded the Fungal Growth change. It were a "change", not a nerf or buff (but clearly, 90% of people would think it were a huge buff). Double the DPS for half the stun is a good trade. Warp gate nerf is another obvious nerf. I don't know why you bring these "huge" nerfs up and talk like they weren't justified. Void ray is a fair change, end game void ray was unstoppable. Ultralisk change (iirc) was for PvZ more than TvZ. Kaydarin Amulet could have been nerfed instead of removed from the game entirely. I'm going to use the standard typical argument that keeps being brought up by people here: The void rays were unstoppable at the time because people hadn't figured them out yet and taken enough time for it. The upgrade did not need to be removed from the game. Oh, and I'll say it now: late game heavy ghost play is unstoppable, nerf ghosts. Hey! Same logic! That must mean it should be nerfed, right? No, it were unstoppable because fully charged void rays couldn't be killed, and you just A moved and afked to come back to a victory screen. The movement upgrade, iirc, they removed because units intended to counter them couldn't because they couldn't kite. Mass ghosts need to be microed, the only thing that could possibly be be OP about them is EMP. Complaining about anything else being overpowered in the Ghost is absolutely ridiculous. Mass ghost owns everything zerg can do late game, except mass roach, which is the dumbest thing you can do against terran since they always make tanks in TvZ. You just snipe brood lords and ultralisks, snipe and emp infestors, snipe banelings, and they do great damage vs. light units like lings and mutalisks with their auto-attack. Snipe pretty much hard counters the entire zerg race. EMP pretty much hard counters the entire protoss race. The amount of micro required to pull off all those snipes while macroing and microing other stuff is mind boggling. I don't really see a problem with how impressive your micro would have to be to do that, otherwise it would fail hard and instantly lose you the game.
You balance for the top levels. If you assume that players at the top level are capable of incredible micro feats (which they are), then you're saying that as long as you are really good at the game and play terran, you should always win vs. zerg with mass ghost. There's really nothing zerg can do about it either, snipe outranges every other spell and ability in the game, and they can easily cloak and snipe the overseers before moving into sight range.
BTW, mass snipe spam isn't that hard, just takes a little practice to get use to it.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 01:47 Yaotzin wrote:It's way too early to say ghosts are a problem. Top Terrans have only just started using them against Zerg - after being molested by infestor/broodlord for a long time. In theory they are godly and all, but theory is so often a load of shit in practice. Against Protoss Blizzard appears to be going for the templar-bus approach, which is a cool and skillful way of stopping ghosts, which people say they want. Give it time to see how it goes. Show nested quote +
In brood war it was easier as protoss to hold on while the carriers were being made, because terran couldn't just stim and run their whole army into your base, they had to slow push their tanks. Plus, your gateway units were a lot stronger and could hold their own in a straight up fight (gateway units in BW actually beat terran infantry instead of the other way around here). Plus, the pace of the game was slower in general.
Yes I agree the transition is an issue, though I think there's less potential for them just a-moving you if they're going mech (which would be why you're going carriers). Transition issues are the biggest opening for new discoveries, though. Look how many people complete skip collosi these days - that used to be considered 100% impossible.
Terrans don't play heavy mech vs. protoss though, so there's no reason to make carriers, thus why we don't even really bother using them, assuming of course that the unit is capable of filling that role at the high level.
BTW, I've been experimenting for a while mixing in carriers in PvT with my colossi late game vs. the bio ball, due to the terran going heavy marauder. I've yet to make it work.
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No, it is a highly risky strategy to pull no matter what the skill level. A single mistake can cost you all your ghosts, and thus the entire game.
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On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:
This list of Terran nerfs made me lol.
Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play.
Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units.
EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf.
Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen.
The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR!
Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it.
BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up.
All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment.
Compare that to some of the gems from the other races.
Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160.
Void Ray
* Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored).
* Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored).
* Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703.
Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed.
Ultralisk
* Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings.
* Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored).
(Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%)
Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner.
Damn Terran has got it rough...
KA was removed because warp in storms were DEFINITELY OP, Infestors are STILL too strong, even with the FG shortening, Warp gate is mostly for PvP to rid the 4 gate problem, flux vanes made VRs uncatchable and way too strong, and I don't think Ultralisk damage is a problem, most the size/pathing.
Two can play your game.
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On September 16 2011 01:55 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:47 Yaotzin wrote:It's way too early to say ghosts are a problem. Top Terrans have only just started using them against Zerg - after being molested by infestor/broodlord for a long time. In theory they are godly and all, but theory is so often a load of shit in practice. Against Protoss Blizzard appears to be going for the templar-bus approach, which is a cool and skillful way of stopping ghosts, which people say they want. Give it time to see how it goes.
In brood war it was easier as protoss to hold on while the carriers were being made, because terran couldn't just stim and run their whole army into your base, they had to slow push their tanks. Plus, your gateway units were a lot stronger and could hold their own in a straight up fight (gateway units in BW actually beat terran infantry instead of the other way around here). Plus, the pace of the game was slower in general.
Yes I agree the transition is an issue, though I think there's less potential for them just a-moving you if they're going mech (which would be why you're going carriers). Transition issues are the biggest opening for new discoveries, though. Look how many people complete skip collosi these days - that used to be considered 100% impossible. Terrans don't play heavy mech vs. protoss though, so there's no reason to make carriers, thus why we don't even really bother using them, assuming of course that the unit is capable of filling that role at the high level. BTW, I've been experimenting for a while mixing in carriers in PvT with my colossi late game vs. the bio ball, due to the terran going heavy marauder. I've yet to make it work.
Carriers also suck against Mech.
Watch Goody vs Hasuobs at the IESF (i think that was the tournament) on Metalopolis / Shakuras.
Hasuobs had 3-3-3 (even shield) Carriers, a Mothership and 10 Stargates.
He couldn't break Goody. Vikings and Thors are ridiculously good again Carriers.
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On September 16 2011 01:47 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:42 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 01:39 Consummate wrote:On September 16 2011 01:34 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 01:32 Consummate wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... Come on dude, try to atleast make it subtle that you don't hate Terran. Those nerfs on Zerg and Protoss were equally reasonable. Khaydarin Amulet nerf prevented instant psi storms which made end game Protoss practically impossible to beat. Losing a battle? Warp in HTs and just psi storm everything! The upgrade was stupid and should never have been like that to begin with. I am not quite sure why you bolded the Fungal Growth change. It were a "change", not a nerf or buff (but clearly, 90% of people would think it were a huge buff). Double the DPS for half the stun is a good trade. Warp gate nerf is another obvious nerf. I don't know why you bring these "huge" nerfs up and talk like they weren't justified. Void ray is a fair change, end game void ray was unstoppable. Ultralisk change (iirc) was for PvZ more than TvZ. Kaydarin Amulet could have been nerfed instead of removed from the game entirely. I'm going to use the standard typical argument that keeps being brought up by people here: The void rays were unstoppable at the time because people hadn't figured them out yet and taken enough time for it. The upgrade did not need to be removed from the game. Oh, and I'll say it now: late game heavy ghost play is unstoppable, nerf ghosts. Hey! Same logic! That must mean it should be nerfed, right? No, it were unstoppable because fully charged void rays couldn't be killed, and you just A moved and afked to come back to a victory screen. The movement upgrade, iirc, they removed because units intended to counter them couldn't because they couldn't kite. Mass ghosts need to be microed, the only thing that could possibly be be OP about them is EMP. Complaining about anything else being overpowered in the Ghost is absolutely ridiculous. Mass ghost owns everything zerg can do late game, except mass roach, which is the dumbest thing you can do against terran since they always make tanks in TvZ. You just snipe brood lords and ultralisks, snipe and emp infestors, snipe banelings, and they do great damage vs. light units like lings and mutalisks with their auto-attack. Snipe pretty much hard counters the entire zerg race. EMP pretty much hard counters the entire protoss race. The amount of micro required to pull off all those snipes while macroing and microing other stuff is mind boggling. I don't really see a problem with how impressive your micro would have to be to do that, otherwise it would fail hard and instantly lose you the game.
The amount of micro required to pull off all those snipes is literally just hold down the R key and click as fast as you can.
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EPT
