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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 16 2011 01:55 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:47 Yaotzin wrote:It's way too early to say ghosts are a problem. Top Terrans have only just started using them against Zerg - after being molested by infestor/broodlord for a long time. In theory they are godly and all, but theory is so often a load of shit in practice. Against Protoss Blizzard appears to be going for the templar-bus approach, which is a cool and skillful way of stopping ghosts, which people say they want. Give it time to see how it goes.
In brood war it was easier as protoss to hold on while the carriers were being made, because terran couldn't just stim and run their whole army into your base, they had to slow push their tanks. Plus, your gateway units were a lot stronger and could hold their own in a straight up fight (gateway units in BW actually beat terran infantry instead of the other way around here). Plus, the pace of the game was slower in general.
Yes I agree the transition is an issue, though I think there's less potential for them just a-moving you if they're going mech (which would be why you're going carriers). Transition issues are the biggest opening for new discoveries, though. Look how many people complete skip collosi these days - that used to be considered 100% impossible. Terrans don't play heavy mech vs. protoss though, so there's no reason to make carriers, thus why we don't even really bother using them, assuming of course that the unit is capable of filling that role at the high level. BTW, I've been experimenting for a while mixing in carriers in PvT with my colossi late game vs. the bio ball, due to the terran going heavy marauder. I've yet to make it work.
The only time I successfully execute a carrier switch is when I am already in the lead. Generally, in macro-oriented PvT's, I either open Colossus - HT / HT - Colossus, and if I am able to claim a decent lead in the first engagements and get ahead on bases, carriers become a possibility.
Usually I need to be on 4-5 bases to throw down 3 Stargates and successfully execute the carrier switch. This seems possible on maps like Antiga, Tal'Darim.
I can't seem to make this work when we are on equal bases, or any earlier than 4-5 bases. It's not safe, and Vikings are already sometimes around to deal with Colossus.
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On September 16 2011 01:34 Whitewing wrote:
Kaydarin Amulet could have been nerfed instead of removed from the game entirely.
I'm going to use the standard typical argument that keeps being brought up by people here: The void rays were unstoppable at the time because people hadn't figured them out yet and taken enough time for it. The upgrade did not need to be removed from the game.
Oh, and I'll say it now: late game heavy ghost play is unstoppable, nerf ghosts.
Hey! Same logic! That must mean it should be nerfed, right?
Yes. And I do believe Ghost will be nerfed in the next patch. It was a mistake to lower the price of ghost last patch.
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On September 16 2011 02:04 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:34 Whitewing wrote:
Kaydarin Amulet could have been nerfed instead of removed from the game entirely.
I'm going to use the standard typical argument that keeps being brought up by people here: The void rays were unstoppable at the time because people hadn't figured them out yet and taken enough time for it. The upgrade did not need to be removed from the game.
Oh, and I'll say it now: late game heavy ghost play is unstoppable, nerf ghosts.
Hey! Same logic! That must mean it should be nerfed, right? Yes. And I do believe Ghost will be nerfed in the next patch. It was a mistake to lower the price of ghost last patch.
I'm not sure if the Ghost is a sure-fire nerf next patch. Though I wouldn't be surprised.
By reducing the cost, they encouraged Ghosts to be used vs Infestor/BL which was difficult for Terran. Unfortunately, they realized that once you had around 10+ ghosts, Infestor / BL was kind of a joke. Same goes for Ghost / HT relationships. Once you get around 7-10 ghosts, any Chargelot / Archon / HT composition becomes obsolete. If the Ghost count is relatively low, then you get pretty balanced battles that revolve around micro / positioning. Once the Ghost count gets high, things start looking very lopsided in both matchups.
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On September 16 2011 01:39 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:34 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 01:32 Consummate wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... Come on dude, try to atleast make it subtle that you don't hate Terran. Those nerfs on Zerg and Protoss were equally reasonable. Khaydarin Amulet nerf prevented instant psi storms which made end game Protoss practically impossible to beat. Losing a battle? Warp in HTs and just psi storm everything! The upgrade was stupid and should never have been like that to begin with. I am not quite sure why you bolded the Fungal Growth change. It were a "change", not a nerf or buff (but clearly, 90% of people would think it were a huge buff). Double the DPS for half the stun is a good trade. Warp gate nerf is another obvious nerf. I don't know why you bring these "huge" nerfs up and talk like they weren't justified. Void ray is a fair change, end game void ray was unstoppable. Ultralisk change (iirc) was for PvZ more than TvZ. Kaydarin Amulet could have been nerfed instead of removed from the game entirely. I'm going to use the standard typical argument that keeps being brought up by people here: The void rays were unstoppable at the time because people hadn't figured them out yet and taken enough time for it. The upgrade did not need to be removed from the game. Oh, and I'll say it now: late game heavy ghost play is unstoppable, nerf ghosts. Hey! Same logic! That must mean it should be nerfed, right? Mass ghosts need to be microed, the only thing that could possibly be be OP about them is EMP. Complaining about anything else being overpowered in the Ghost is absolutely ridiculous.
Oh I am sure we can find a few messed up things about the Ghost. Lets see:
100 HP and neither light or armored. Its close to a marauder without the flaws. Both the infestors and HT are either light or armored.
Lower gas costs that both infestors and HTs. When upgraded it starts with enough enegry to snipe either of of the other casters. At range 10.
Snipe has 10 range, which is as far as a broodlord shoots and outranges both casters spells.
Can shoot air. This means that 3 ghost one shot an Observer. Not that big of a deal, except that the Observer is the only mobile detection. Its pretty rough to spot for them going in for EMPs if they can kill the detector with a single scan.
Snipe can target air, which means they can take out Overseers, zergs only mobile detection. At range 10. Overseers have sight of 11 and are slower than Ghost, even upgraded.
And some other stuff, like how the building that is required to build them cost 150/50 and only requires a rax. The twilight counsel costs 150/100 and provides no new units or spells. The infestor pit requires 100/100 and requires lair tech. Thats some low infestment for one awesome unit.
The ghost is a great concept, but it has been a mostly used in limited numbers. There is a chance it has been broken this entire time and we never knew it. It is a snow ball unit and the more of them that get on the field, the harder they are to deal with. Once the cloak gets involved, they become really difficult to deal with.
I like the concept of the Ghost, but why do they have to be so hard to kill and shoot so far?
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On September 16 2011 02:01 Prospero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:
This list of Terran nerfs made me lol.
Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play.
Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units.
EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf.
Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen.
The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR!
Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it.
BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up.
All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment.
Compare that to some of the gems from the other races.
Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160.
Void Ray
* Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored).
* Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored).
* Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703.
Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed.
Ultralisk
* Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings.
* Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored).
(Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%)
Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner.
Damn Terran has got it rough... KA was removed because warp in storms were DEFINITELY OP, Infestors are STILL too strong, even with the FG shortening, Warp gate is mostly for PvP to rid the 4 gate problem, flux vanes made VRs uncatchable and way too strong, and I don't think Ultralisk damage is a problem, most the size/pathing. Two can play your game.
Blizzard couldn't just nerf the energy bonus? they had to remove KA?
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On September 16 2011 02:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:39 Consummate wrote:On September 16 2011 01:34 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 01:32 Consummate wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... Come on dude, try to atleast make it subtle that you don't hate Terran. Those nerfs on Zerg and Protoss were equally reasonable. Khaydarin Amulet nerf prevented instant psi storms which made end game Protoss practically impossible to beat. Losing a battle? Warp in HTs and just psi storm everything! The upgrade was stupid and should never have been like that to begin with. I am not quite sure why you bolded the Fungal Growth change. It were a "change", not a nerf or buff (but clearly, 90% of people would think it were a huge buff). Double the DPS for half the stun is a good trade. Warp gate nerf is another obvious nerf. I don't know why you bring these "huge" nerfs up and talk like they weren't justified. Void ray is a fair change, end game void ray was unstoppable. Ultralisk change (iirc) was for PvZ more than TvZ. Kaydarin Amulet could have been nerfed instead of removed from the game entirely. I'm going to use the standard typical argument that keeps being brought up by people here: The void rays were unstoppable at the time because people hadn't figured them out yet and taken enough time for it. The upgrade did not need to be removed from the game. Oh, and I'll say it now: late game heavy ghost play is unstoppable, nerf ghosts. Hey! Same logic! That must mean it should be nerfed, right? Mass ghosts need to be microed, the only thing that could possibly be be OP about them is EMP. Complaining about anything else being overpowered in the Ghost is absolutely ridiculous. Oh I am sure we can find a few messed up things about the Ghost. Lets see: 100 HP and neither light or armored. Its close to a marauder without the flaws. Both the infestors and HT are either light or armored. Lower gas costs that both infestors and HTs. When upgraded it starts with enough enegry to snipe either of of the other casters. At range 10. Snipe has 10 range, which is as far as a broodlord shoots and outranges both casters spells. Can shoot air. This means that 3 ghost one shot an Observer. Not that big of a deal, except that the Observer is the only mobile detection. Its pretty rough to spot for them going in for EMPs if they can kill the detector with a single scan. Snipe can target air, which means they can take out Overseers, zergs only mobile detection. At range 10. Overseers have sight of 11 and are slower than Ghost, even upgraded. And some other stuff, like how the building that is required to build them cost 150/50 and only requires a rax. The twilight counsel costs 150/100 and provides no new units or spells. The infestor pit requires 100/100 and requires lair tech. Thats some low infestment for one awesome unit. The ghost is a great concept, but it has been a mostly used in limited numbers. There is a chance it has been broken this entire time and we never knew it. It is a snow ball unit and the more of them that get on the field, the harder they are to deal with. Once the cloak gets involved, they become really difficult to deal with. I like the concept of the Ghost, but why do they have to be so hard to kill and shoot so far?
Zerg player here and I don't see any massive problems with ghost play for the time being especially with the infestor at the current state (I think FG is pretty overpowered right now). If this infestor NP to only nonmassive units change goes through I think it's fair that blizzard should remove the long tenticle that allows you to instantly see which infestor is channeling. Either that or remove the channeling alltogether and make it a projectile. This way you could NP a ghost and turn their EMP against them easier.
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On September 16 2011 01:47 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:42 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 01:39 Consummate wrote:On September 16 2011 01:34 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 01:32 Consummate wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... Come on dude, try to atleast make it subtle that you don't hate Terran. Those nerfs on Zerg and Protoss were equally reasonable. Khaydarin Amulet nerf prevented instant psi storms which made end game Protoss practically impossible to beat. Losing a battle? Warp in HTs and just psi storm everything! The upgrade was stupid and should never have been like that to begin with. I am not quite sure why you bolded the Fungal Growth change. It were a "change", not a nerf or buff (but clearly, 90% of people would think it were a huge buff). Double the DPS for half the stun is a good trade. Warp gate nerf is another obvious nerf. I don't know why you bring these "huge" nerfs up and talk like they weren't justified. Void ray is a fair change, end game void ray was unstoppable. Ultralisk change (iirc) was for PvZ more than TvZ. Kaydarin Amulet could have been nerfed instead of removed from the game entirely. I'm going to use the standard typical argument that keeps being brought up by people here: The void rays were unstoppable at the time because people hadn't figured them out yet and taken enough time for it. The upgrade did not need to be removed from the game. Oh, and I'll say it now: late game heavy ghost play is unstoppable, nerf ghosts. Hey! Same logic! That must mean it should be nerfed, right? No, it were unstoppable because fully charged void rays couldn't be killed, and you just A moved and afked to come back to a victory screen. The movement upgrade, iirc, they removed because units intended to counter them couldn't because they couldn't kite. Mass ghosts need to be microed, the only thing that could possibly be be OP about them is EMP. Complaining about anything else being overpowered in the Ghost is absolutely ridiculous. Mass ghost owns everything zerg can do late game, except mass roach, which is the dumbest thing you can do against terran since they always make tanks in TvZ. You just snipe brood lords and ultralisks, snipe and emp infestors, snipe banelings, and they do great damage vs. light units like lings and mutalisks with their auto-attack. Snipe pretty much hard counters the entire zerg race. EMP pretty much hard counters the entire protoss race. The amount of micro required to pull off all those snipes while macroing and microing other stuff is mind boggling. I don't really see a problem with how impressive your micro would have to be to do that, otherwise it would fail hard and instantly lose you the game.
The micro required for Ghosts Snipe isn't very hard, I've played around with it a fair bit and it's exactly the same technique that Zergs use for Infested Terran bombing. Zergs manage it yet for some reason Terrans say it's too hard.
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Its alot harder to click on units, and making sure you click enough for them to die but not wasting to much time clicking. then just spam click in a general area.
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I just have a hard time taking anyone who says that "Infestors deserve to be nerfed because they're good against everything" seriously. Look at Zerg units! There's almost no synergy between any of the units, besides Infestor-BL, and that's the reason why it's so effective. If you looked at BW days, there was a great synergy between lurker/ling and defiler/ultra/ling, and that's why it was so effective in a variety of matchups. Zerg doesn't really have that, except for one build that finds itself into every non-mirror matchup, because it's the only one that works super late game.
I remember the days when Protoss were crushing PvZ and every thread in the Strategy section was how to beat the deathball. Before Infestors came into style, the general consensus was to kill the Protoss before they got to that stage. That's outright admitting that Protoss had a superior mid and late game army.... yet no one was crying for nerfs at that point.
The Zerg got creative... players took units that horrible (previously) efficiency against mostly armored P units in banelings and dropped them on the "deathball". Does anyone else see how fucking creative that is? Then there's the whole metagame of the mutalisk that Nestea and friends are throwing around, even though there are a ton of P units that counter the mutalisk... The ZvP metagame has changed so much from the beginning that they've earned the right to be successful in this matchup.
There hasn't been any similar breakthroughs in PvZ. Instead of finding a way to beat infestors through player skill (I don't know, try spreading your HT. I heard fungal doesn't work all that great with they can't fungal everything in one hit) and exploiting timings, like Zerg has been doing, Protoss players have suddenly seen the matchup flip into something they can't beat by 1a-ing and think this patch is well deserved, instead of taking the time to figure out how to beat it without a nerf.
Ok, maybe that's a bit harsh, but that's how I see it. PvZ hasn't seen any huge developments, where ZvP has seen advancements from your usual Roach-Hydra-Corruptor, with and without Infestors. It's sad to see all that advancement be shoved back to the Corruptor, which only Zerg players know how much it really sucks.
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On September 16 2011 02:40 arto wrote:
Its alot harder to click on units, and making sure you click enough for them to die but not wasting to much time clicking. then just spam click in a general area.
Broodlords and Ultras are pretty large easy targets, but whatever you can make up silly little excuses all day if you want to, no skin off my nose if you don't want to play better.
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On September 16 2011 02:40 arto wrote:
Its alot harder to click on units, and making sure you click enough for them to die but not wasting to much time clicking. then just spam click in a general area.
Is it only me who finds this funny as terrans use to say the opposite when it comes to EMP vs Feedback?
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United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 02:54 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 02:40 arto wrote:
Its alot harder to click on units, and making sure you click enough for them to die but not wasting to much time clicking. then just spam click in a general area. Is it only me who finds this funny as terrans use to say the opposite when it comes to EMP vs Feedback?
No, not at all. It's hilarious.
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 16 2011 02:54 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 02:40 arto wrote:
Its alot harder to click on units, and making sure you click enough for them to die but not wasting to much time clicking. then just spam click in a general area. Is it only me who finds this funny as terrans use to say the opposite when it comes to EMP vs Feedback?
The irony of it is killing me
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Personally I think Blizzard is balancing things in a bad manner. Nerfing things levels down the total amount of momentum a game can have, while buffing things creates contrast. And that's what we need in a game, CONTRAST.
The ultimate nerf is that all units behave the same and are weak. That is boring. The ultimate buff is that all units behave completely different and are powerful. That is awesome. One thing that needs to be done now is balance between the buffed units.
So, I don't mind that terran is a cool race and well defined. But please bring that awesome diversity that terran has to protoss and zerg, and do not nerfe terran.
So by the above logic, nerfing the Infestor is bad. I must admit, at first glance that nerf looks well deserved, but from an overall perspective it's going to hurt the game.
The dullest race is protoss. It has so few options that i sometimes get bored playing my race, but I still have hope and don't want to switch. So Blizzard, please get some buffs in protoss, some in zerg, and let's play this mother fking game with love and respect.
All I have said can be observed in tournaments because 70% of the games are boring and repetitive.
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I'm not sure how I feel about the range nerf.
It's certainly better than not working at all on massive I suppose, still pretty significant though.
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Interesting - needs to be updated!
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8 would make more sense. 7 is too much.
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Canada13407 Posts
upon checking its been posted. Editing:
People are complaining about 2 range? seriously? People can never be happy unfortunately.
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On September 16 2011 03:11 Antisocialmunky wrote:
8 would make more sense. 7 is too much.
I 100% agree with you, 7 is really really close, 8 would have been better in my opinion
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EPT
