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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Striding Strider
United Kingdom787 Posts
On September 16 2011 03:42 KonohaFlash wrote: How the hell can zerg be able to whine and have changes made, yet when zerg and terran do the same nothing happens. Jesus christ.  | ||
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Cow
Canada1104 Posts
On September 16 2011 03:39 Jermstuddog wrote: I think it was all a ploy. They wanted to reduce the cast range by 2 all along, but that is a pretty sizable nerf considering the size and speed of the infestor. So they come up with this idiotic change so that they can generate 200+ pages in this TL thread, that way Zergs are HAPPY to have range 7, now we get to see pages explaining how it's "not that bad" instead of "OMG BUT MY FATASS INFESTORS WILL DIE BEFORE THEY MAKE IT THAT CLOSE!!!" It's all about the marketing. I was thinking exactly this. They added a ridiculous nerf so the other changes/the actual ones they wanted on the Infestor would be received a lot better than had they not suggested nerfing NP the way they did. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
T_T | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
On September 16 2011 03:13 Misere wrote: Its funny how all that zerg "advancement" in the metagame happened right after infestors got buffed, right? Coincidence I guess... Nestea and Losira haven't lost against Protoss in quite some time without using infestors at all. It is ludicrous to say that Zerg have not advanced at all and that they are just depending on the infestor buff to win vs Protoss. Before, Zerg's didn't take a quick third against Forge expand and 2 based for a long time and actually used hydras and corruptors as standard late game ZvP. If you took away the infestor, would Zerg still play like this? NO! Protoss, on the other hand, still mass blink stalkers and colossi, still go for 2 base timings that are being figured out. What is standard PvZ macro play? Does it exist? Zerg struggled for months against Protoss, and finally figured out ways to play, infestor or no infestor. You saw Idra and Coca beat Cruncher and Naniwa respectively with roach hydra corruptor, playing an aggressive style. You saw drop play innovated, banelings which are horrible cost inefficient and terrible against forcefields and storm, are staples for some players, Zergs realised the importance of melee upgrades, they make lings now. Protoss is innovating, they just need more time. Don't just say PvZ is unwinnable and that the infestor has to be nerfed. I don't mind if they buff Protoss (which they did), but nerfing Zerg to 'fix' PvZ will leave Zerg in a dire situation 2 months time. PvT was pretty easy for Protoss when big maps were introduced and you had the amulet. Everyone agreed Protoss was easy and the best race (watch Artosis interviewing korean players during this time), because they had an unbeatable death ball in both matchups. Protoss players were saying 'lol Terrans try not going tier 1 the whole game', and told Zerg 'lol use more Nydus'. Everyone else said 'no, no, this doesn't work for thisthisthisthisthis, P is clearly imba.' Whine whine whine, amulet is removed, and look at PvT nowadays (even excluding 1/1/1 which is a whole nother scale). Terrans 'discovered' ghosts and realised that their MMM ball could demolish the deathball and voila, Protoss have nothing good anymore. The same will happen to Zerg. Infestors get nerfed, they have to use corruptors against Protoss and somehow hope to defeat Ghost mech when Terran has buffed Ravens (this is hypothetical). Suddenly, Zerg will be easy to beat late game and Blizzard will have once again failed. Blizzard should just leave the game as it is and only fix matchups approacing the 60/40 regions (tvp) and leave the 55/45 matchups alone (ZvP). Tbh, TvZ is pretty bad too and the infestor nerf won't help that either. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On September 16 2011 03:44 Tsubbi wrote: this is exactly how i feel about this too and it retracts from the lack of terran nerf too, brilliant I feel exactly the same way. I also love the way they are making this change not available on PTR for any testing whatsoever and just gonna make it go straight to patch. Real classy Blizz, real classy. | ||
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KonohaFlash
Canada1590 Posts
Typo's haha, I'm just thinking about zerg too much right now. | ||
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devilcry
Bulgaria53 Posts
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soupchicken
United States322 Posts
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Randomaccount#128098
United States411 Posts
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 16 2011 03:47 soupchicken wrote: Ehhh at 7 range they should really make it cast-able from burrow imo. Burrow'd NP would make it so range isn't even an issue. | ||
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Leafs
Canada41 Posts
On September 16 2011 03:46 BeeNu wrote: I feel exactly the same way. I also love the way they are making this change not available on PTR for any testing whatsoever and just gonna make it go straight to patch. Real classy Blizz, real classy. Of course. It`s all a giant conspiracy as opposed to Blizzard testing out various solutions to make the game better. Ever hear of Occam`s razor? | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
On September 16 2011 03:46 devilcry wrote: this is actually better because now they cant reach from across the map to NP yea...instead the other units that still have range9 or higher that were being np'd because theyre the stronger units usually will not be able to be np'd and it'll be all better.....right? -_- | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 16 2011 02:48 Havefa1th wrote: I just have a hard time taking anyone who says that "Infestors deserve to be nerfed because they're good against everything" seriously. Look at Zerg units! There's almost no synergy between any of the units, besides Infestor-BL, and that's the reason why it's so effective. If you looked at BW days, there was a great synergy between lurker/ling and defiler/ultra/ling, and that's why it was so effective in a variety of matchups. Zerg doesn't really have that, except for one build that finds itself into every non-mirror matchup, because it's the only one that works super late game. I remember the days when Protoss were crushing PvZ and every thread in the Strategy section was how to beat the deathball. Before Infestors came into style, the general consensus was to kill the Protoss before they got to that stage. That's outright admitting that Protoss had a superior mid and late game army.... yet no one was crying for nerfs at that point. The Zerg got creative... players took units that horrible (previously) efficiency against mostly armored P units in banelings and dropped them on the "deathball". Does anyone else see how fucking creative that is? Then there's the whole metagame of the mutalisk that Nestea and friends are throwing around, even though there are a ton of P units that counter the mutalisk... The ZvP metagame has changed so much from the beginning that they've earned the right to be successful in this matchup. There hasn't been any similar breakthroughs in PvZ. Instead of finding a way to beat infestors through player skill (I don't know, try spreading your HT. I heard fungal doesn't work all that great with they can't fungal everything in one hit) and exploiting timings, like Zerg has been doing, Protoss players have suddenly seen the matchup flip into something they can't beat by 1a-ing and think this patch is well deserved, instead of taking the time to figure out how to beat it without a nerf. Ok, maybe that's a bit harsh, but that's how I see it. PvZ hasn't seen any huge developments, where ZvP has seen advancements from your usual Roach-Hydra-Corruptor, with and without Infestors. It's sad to see all that advancement be shoved back to the Corruptor, which only Zerg players know how much it really sucks. Oh, there have been tons of PvZ developments. The main reason Roach/Hydra/Corruptor became the Zerg standard during the deathball phase, was because Zerg players believed they needed to open with Roaches in order to survive Protoss 2 base timings. Before that stuff like muta/ling was very popular, and Protoss players would get contained on 2 bases and lose to mass Muta. And then 2 base Warpgate all-ins completely removed that build from Zerg play. Similarly, the standard 1 VR/4 Phoenix Stargate harass was something that came about through Protoss strategic development. If you look at GSL VoDs from 9 months ago, you won't see anyone playing like that. Then we had Blink openings, and the realisation that you can have a very strong midgame as Protoss with just Blink Stalkers and Sentries with good attack upgrades. Even after the Infestor buff, Zerg continued to have a hard time against this, we even had Idra saying Blink Stalkers are unbeatable. What you mean, I think, is that there have been no recent major develpments in PvZ. Which is true to an extent, there have been some cool builds coming from NSHS Protosses, but in general, you're right. Which is part of the problem - Protoss players feel like there isn't much to discover anymore. The primary problem with Infestors, the way I see it, is not that they're too good against Protoss. They're very good, but not overwhelmingly overpowered. The problem is twofold - one part is that HTs are significantly worse than Infestors in the context of the matchup. The second part, is that Zerg have a significant economic advantage by default, and their core units are relatively gas-light, so they can get out a huge amount of Infestors and still have a decent standing army. So you end up in a situation where Zerg can make 20 Infestors, which are good against everything, while Protoss barely has gas left for 4-5 HTs after getting everything else they need in order to secure a third and not die. So yeah, I still think it's better to just buff HTs and/or Phoenix, than nerf Infestors at all. God knows Terrans don't need any help in TvZ. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
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Leafs
Canada41 Posts
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`dunedain
657 Posts
I guess some people just really like to whine. | ||
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Elean
689 Posts
On September 16 2011 03:58 hugman wrote: I think it's a fair change because it gives Protoss player a chance to focus fire the Infestors with their Colossi before they get int NP range. That doesn't mean they'll do it every time or that NP-ing them will be impossibe. Yeah, you can NP a colossus that is in front of the stalkers or immediately behind. If such a situation ever happens, just killing the colossus with roaches is so much simplier. The new NP change is an even bigger nerf. But I like it better, because at least it's not a buff of massive units, and when you look at the massive units, buffing them is just retarded. | ||
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
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