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Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 426

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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne

There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
September 15 2011 19:38 GMT
#8501
pretty good change with the infestor i'd say. This way it won't be good against colossus anymore, which was somewhat of a problem, but NP is still quite a good solution to various other stuff like zealot/archon and thor based pushes. NP'ed units keeping upgrades was actually quite a buff that would make stealing colossi even worse so i do think this is a good change. Range 8 could have worked as well imo but i guess range 7 is fine too though perhaps a bit harsh
MattyClutch
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States711 Posts
September 15 2011 19:39 GMT
#8502
On September 16 2011 04:37 NicolBolas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 04:12 BeeNu wrote:
On September 16 2011 03:54 Leafs wrote:
On September 16 2011 03:46 BeeNu wrote:
On September 16 2011 03:44 Tsubbi wrote:
On September 16 2011 03:39 Jermstuddog wrote:
I think it was all a ploy.

They wanted to reduce the cast range by 2 all along, but that is a pretty sizable nerf considering the size and speed of the infestor.

So they come up with this idiotic change so that they can generate 200+ pages in this TL thread, that way Zergs are HAPPY to have range 7, now we get to see pages explaining how it's "not that bad" instead of "OMG BUT MY FATASS INFESTORS WILL DIE BEFORE THEY MAKE IT THAT CLOSE!!!"

It's all about the marketing.


this is exactly how i feel about this too

and it retracts from the lack of terran nerf too, brilliant


I feel exactly the same way.

I also love the way they are making this change not available on PTR for any testing whatsoever and just gonna make it go straight to patch.

Real classy Blizz, real classy.


Of course. It`s all a giant conspiracy as opposed to Blizzard testing out various solutions to make the game better. Ever hear of Occam`s razor?


How is this "Blizzard testing out various solutions"? This change isn't even going to be tested out in PTR. The fact that it looks like this change won't actually get any testing before patch suggests to me that Blizzard was intending to force this kind of change all along regardless of public opinion. Before you try forcing out terms like Occam's Razor maybe you should learn how to properly apply the term in the first place.


Blizzard is clearly running the PTR on a schedule. They don't put something on the PTR and then leave it there for an indeterminate period of time until they have it right. There have been several changes in the past that didn't go through the PTR despite the PTR being online.

Basically, Blizzard has decided that the PTR will run for X weeks before a patch. X does not change, period.

Occam's Razor says that it's not a conspiracy. It's just Blizzard having a schedule and sticking to it. You can argue that it defeats the point of the PTR as a testbed if they can still backdoor untested changes. But there's no conspiracy here.




Nonsense! It was clearly the mole people of Kuala Lumpur. Its always the mole men with their deep seated hatred of zerg!
Nihn'kas Neehn
Telenil
Profile Joined September 2010
France484 Posts
September 15 2011 19:41 GMT
#8503
How does this "soften" the nerf? It's just as bad if not worse than removing it from massive. Colossus will still be untouchable and Mech pushes will be about as untouchable now due to how massively out-ranged Infestors will be by Siege Tanks.
You could not use neural parasite colossi and archons (and thors and battlecruisers...) at all. Now you can, even if it will be harder -or much harder as far as colossi are concerned- to do it.
Come on, how could "difficult" be worse than "impossible"?
Mass Recall: Brood War campaigns on SC2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=303166
Cyrak
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada536 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 19:50:09
September 15 2011 19:47 GMT
#8504
I like this change a lot better. The more I think it over the more I think that maybe this is an even harsher nerf. The only reason that strat was strong in the first place (vs P anyway) was that you couldn't hit the infestors with your stalkers unless you blinked into the center of their army.


edit: Just out of curiosity, does anyone think that this patch is actually going to have any impact on the PvX winrates in Korea? I'm still staggered over the fact that there hasn't been any word on ghosts or on really anything other than this minor neural change and immortal range. o_o
Fortune favors the prepared mind.
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
September 15 2011 19:48 GMT
#8505
I like the change for the infestors. Removing massive was a bit much, but this is more manageable. Zealot Archon will be better now especially after they upgraded the archon range.
Also, immortals at 6 range vs infestors at 7 will be interesting. Infestor/roach will be harder to do against mass immortal.

Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
September 15 2011 19:50 GMT
#8506
On September 16 2011 04:35 windsupernova wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 04:30 BeeNu wrote:
On September 16 2011 04:25 Telenil wrote:
Blizzard was intending to force this kind of change all along regardless of public opinion.
Truth and science are not democratic, nor is game balance. Blizzard never changed anything simply because players complain about it, and never will.
If their first idea was to reduce NP range from 9 to 7, they would have done it immediately. There is no need to imagine a complicated conspiracy to manipulate player opinion.
Before you try forcing out terms like Occam's Razor maybe you should learn how to properly apply the term in the first place.
Solution 1: Blizzard tested a change, listened to player feedback, and softened the nerf a little bit.
Solution 2: masterminds at Blizzard Entertainments introduced a fake change and tested it for no practical reason on the PTR during a week, as part of a conspiracy whose purpose would be to let players believe they listen to their opinion.
I do think Occam's Razor applies, and not in favour of solution 2.


How does this "soften" the nerf? It's just as bad if not worse than removing it from massive. Colossus will still be untouchable and Mech pushes will be about as untouchable now due to how massively out-ranged Infestors will be by Siege Tanks.


Infestors were still outranged by siege tanks anyways.

But yeah yeah... you already set your mind that NP is as good as removed from the game so no point in arguing


LOL?

Right, so you don't have any real argument so you just end it with a snide comment and want me to accept that at face value? Get real.
I have an open mind here, go ahead, tell me how Neural Parasite is going to still be a worthwhile ability after the nerf.
windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
September 15 2011 19:54 GMT
#8507
On September 16 2011 04:50 BeeNu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 04:35 windsupernova wrote:
On September 16 2011 04:30 BeeNu wrote:
On September 16 2011 04:25 Telenil wrote:
Blizzard was intending to force this kind of change all along regardless of public opinion.
Truth and science are not democratic, nor is game balance. Blizzard never changed anything simply because players complain about it, and never will.
If their first idea was to reduce NP range from 9 to 7, they would have done it immediately. There is no need to imagine a complicated conspiracy to manipulate player opinion.
Before you try forcing out terms like Occam's Razor maybe you should learn how to properly apply the term in the first place.
Solution 1: Blizzard tested a change, listened to player feedback, and softened the nerf a little bit.
Solution 2: masterminds at Blizzard Entertainments introduced a fake change and tested it for no practical reason on the PTR during a week, as part of a conspiracy whose purpose would be to let players believe they listen to their opinion.
I do think Occam's Razor applies, and not in favour of solution 2.


How does this "soften" the nerf? It's just as bad if not worse than removing it from massive. Colossus will still be untouchable and Mech pushes will be about as untouchable now due to how massively out-ranged Infestors will be by Siege Tanks.


Infestors were still outranged by siege tanks anyways.

But yeah yeah... you already set your mind that NP is as good as removed from the game so no point in arguing


LOL?

Right, so you don't have any real argument so you just end it with a snide comment and want me to accept that at face value? Get real.
I have an open mind here, go ahead, tell me how Neural Parasite is going to still be a worthwhile ability after the nerf.


I can´t I actually would have to play the game with that change to see if its worthless or not. And even then that would only be true at my level of play. You are just theorycrafting that NP is now useless.
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
CursedRich
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom737 Posts
September 15 2011 19:56 GMT
#8508
I like that fact that now if we see the pro's win big decisive battles with NP it will be a matter of skill, fair play Blizz
Chill Winston......
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
September 15 2011 19:57 GMT
#8509
On September 16 2011 04:41 Telenil wrote:
Show nested quote +
How does this "soften" the nerf? It's just as bad if not worse than removing it from massive. Colossus will still be untouchable and Mech pushes will be about as untouchable now due to how massively out-ranged Infestors will be by Siege Tanks.
You could not use neural parasite colossi and archons (and thors and battlecruisers...) at all. Now you can, even if it will be harder -or much harder as far as colossi are concerned- to do it.
Come on, how could "difficult" be worse than "impossible"?



My reasoning behind that statement is that I can't fathom being able to get NP off on Colossus with only 7 range, even 9 range takes good positioning and timing to pull off. The massive disparity between 7 range and the Siege Tank range of 13 means Infestors will be incredibly easy to pick off with Tanks in any Mech push. The reason I think this is worse than removing it from massive is that now it's just about as bad vs Massive and even worse against everything else.
The only thing I can think of that this does really help a bit is against Archons.
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
September 15 2011 19:58 GMT
#8510
On September 16 2011 04:54 windsupernova wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 04:50 BeeNu wrote:
On September 16 2011 04:35 windsupernova wrote:
On September 16 2011 04:30 BeeNu wrote:
On September 16 2011 04:25 Telenil wrote:
Blizzard was intending to force this kind of change all along regardless of public opinion.
Truth and science are not democratic, nor is game balance. Blizzard never changed anything simply because players complain about it, and never will.
If their first idea was to reduce NP range from 9 to 7, they would have done it immediately. There is no need to imagine a complicated conspiracy to manipulate player opinion.
Before you try forcing out terms like Occam's Razor maybe you should learn how to properly apply the term in the first place.
Solution 1: Blizzard tested a change, listened to player feedback, and softened the nerf a little bit.
Solution 2: masterminds at Blizzard Entertainments introduced a fake change and tested it for no practical reason on the PTR during a week, as part of a conspiracy whose purpose would be to let players believe they listen to their opinion.
I do think Occam's Razor applies, and not in favour of solution 2.


How does this "soften" the nerf? It's just as bad if not worse than removing it from massive. Colossus will still be untouchable and Mech pushes will be about as untouchable now due to how massively out-ranged Infestors will be by Siege Tanks.


Infestors were still outranged by siege tanks anyways.

But yeah yeah... you already set your mind that NP is as good as removed from the game so no point in arguing


LOL?

Right, so you don't have any real argument so you just end it with a snide comment and want me to accept that at face value? Get real.
I have an open mind here, go ahead, tell me how Neural Parasite is going to still be a worthwhile ability after the nerf.


I can´t I actually would have to play the game with that change to see if its worthless or not. And even then that would only be true at my level of play. You are just theorycrafting that NP is now useless.


Yeah, what a shame I can't actually test this out either because Blizzard won't allow me to see how bad it is on PTR.
Reithan
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States360 Posts
September 15 2011 20:12 GMT
#8511
Bait and switch, imo.
Blizzard takes a spell they originally publicly purposed for taking control of massive units, make it unable to target massive, read: useless, let us all whine for a while, and go "Oh, our bad, here's a lesser nerf", when in reality that was the planned nerf the whole time, but they had to hit us with something retarded first to make this nerf look palatable.

It's already VERY hard to pull off NP with 9 range, given that colossus have 9 range and tanks have 14 (which will probably be near the thors!)

With 7 range this spell is still fairly unusable. Sure, if there's a lone colossus or thor with no support off by themselves this is still usable to, I guess make that unit dance for 15s...but in a real situation it's just not feasible for use with 7 range, given 9 range colossi, 14 range tanks, 7 range feedback and 9 range EMP.

Who the hell was complaining about NP anyway?? FG and iTerran were the problems, right??
http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan
RodYan
Profile Joined May 2010
United States126 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 20:14:40
September 15 2011 20:14 GMT
#8512
Thor Attack Range: 7
New NP Range: 7

I see a problem here.....
youngminii
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia7514 Posts
September 15 2011 20:17 GMT
#8513
I think this new nerf is so much more/just as crippling as the last nerf, which I was on board with anyway.

Hooray to everyon!
lalala
beute
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany197 Posts
September 15 2011 20:18 GMT
#8514
On September 16 2011 05:14 RodYan wrote:
Thor Attack Range: 7
New NP Range: 7

I see a problem here.....


worked fine with colossi didnt it?
dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
September 15 2011 20:18 GMT
#8515
On September 16 2011 05:14 RodYan wrote:
Thor Attack Range: 7
New NP Range: 7

I see a problem here.....

Neuraling Collosus when NP range was 9 worked out fine, why wouldn't this?
RodYan
Profile Joined May 2010
United States126 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 20:20:14
September 15 2011 20:19 GMT
#8516
On September 16 2011 05:18 dani` wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 05:14 RodYan wrote:
Thor Attack Range: 7
New NP Range: 7

I see a problem here.....

Neuraling Collosus when NP range was 9 worked out fine, why wouldn't this?

Thor (60) has a much larger burst damage than Collosus (30)
Firekidt
Profile Joined March 2011
United States28 Posts
September 15 2011 20:19 GMT
#8517
About time. As a protoss, I was getting tired of having to micro.
"Shut up your terran"
Raagruk
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada66 Posts
September 15 2011 20:20 GMT
#8518
hmmm seems like a decent patch
Be Bloody, Bold and Resolute.
BadgerBadger8264
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands409 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 20:24:34
September 15 2011 20:24 GMT
#8519
Thor (60) has a much larger burst damage than Collosus (30)

Thors also clump up insanely and have stupid AI whereas colossus move extremely smoothly. If you neural the "outer" thor there is simply no way for the other thors to walk around that thor because of how fat they are, colossus, however, can walk there easily to attack the infestor.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 20:28:09
September 15 2011 20:26 GMT
#8520
On September 16 2011 04:50 BeeNu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 04:35 windsupernova wrote:
On September 16 2011 04:30 BeeNu wrote:
On September 16 2011 04:25 Telenil wrote:
Blizzard was intending to force this kind of change all along regardless of public opinion.
Truth and science are not democratic, nor is game balance. Blizzard never changed anything simply because players complain about it, and never will.
If their first idea was to reduce NP range from 9 to 7, they would have done it immediately. There is no need to imagine a complicated conspiracy to manipulate player opinion.
Before you try forcing out terms like Occam's Razor maybe you should learn how to properly apply the term in the first place.
Solution 1: Blizzard tested a change, listened to player feedback, and softened the nerf a little bit.
Solution 2: masterminds at Blizzard Entertainments introduced a fake change and tested it for no practical reason on the PTR during a week, as part of a conspiracy whose purpose would be to let players believe they listen to their opinion.
I do think Occam's Razor applies, and not in favour of solution 2.


How does this "soften" the nerf? It's just as bad if not worse than removing it from massive. Colossus will still be untouchable and Mech pushes will be about as untouchable now due to how massively out-ranged Infestors will be by Siege Tanks.


Infestors were still outranged by siege tanks anyways.

But yeah yeah... you already set your mind that NP is as good as removed from the game so no point in arguing


LOL?

Right, so you don't have any real argument so you just end it with a snide comment and want me to accept that at face value? Get real.
I have an open mind here, go ahead, tell me how Neural Parasite is going to still be a worthwhile ability after the nerf.


I am not sure we could convince you or that it would be worth our time. I doubt it will be completely useless, but you will have to risk the infestors more than before. It will still work against mass Thors if you screen them with lings/roaches.

I guess you will have to figure it out for yourself.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
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